Bible Discussion: Biased Textual Critics

Biased Textual Critics
Posts: 366

Report Abuse

Use this form to report abuse or request takedown.
The requests are usually processed within 48 hours.

Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11   Next  (First | Last)

Yuri Kuchinsky
2004-06-01 16:21:26 EST

Greetings, all,

Mr. Wieland Willker is an amateur NT textual critic who
maintains a fairly popular webpage on the subject,

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html

Recently, he also started a new discussion group dedicated
to biblical textual criticism,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/

So I've subscribed to it a few days ago, because of my own
interest in the subject, and especially in the subject of
the so-called "Western text".

(Actually, "Western text" is not "Western" at all; it is the
gospel text that was originally prevalent in the _East_,
such as in Syria! It is, in fact, the text of our ancient
Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels, that are extremely
neglected by mainstream biblical critics today, apparently
because of political bias...)

So I started to receive some mail from Mr. Willker's list,
and everything was fine. But then... after a few more days,
my membership was deleted without any further explanation!

Was this because of my special interest in the Semitic
textual tradition of the gospels? I sure think so... So this
just shows how biased these folks are. They don't even try
to pretend to be objective...

Yes, this is the dishonesty and bias that we observe in the
field. It's back to the middle ages with this sort of an
intolerance to anything that doesn't agree with their
"accepted version" of NT textual criticism, where only the
Greek manuscripts are given any authority.

Was Jesus really a Greek?! Of course not, but this is how
the "prevailing wisdom" in the field seems to be
formulated...

Whenever I've had any sort of an exchange with Herr Willker
in the past, he invariably refused to deal with the issues,
and instead limited himself to a few insults. Or even
neglected to reply at all to any of the issues I raised... I
don't even remember one time when he tried to engage in a
fair argument. Censorship is just so much easier to do,
isn't it.

Yes, dear friends, we're really living through the Dark Ages
in NT textual criticism, where the opposing views are
regularly swept under the rug, and where the ancient Aramaic
manuscripts of the gospels, written as they are in the
language of Jesus, are still resolutely neglected and
avoided.

How sad...

Yours truly,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

Jim Sheffield
2004-06-02 15:44:54 EST
Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message news:<40BCE546.93E64FE9@trends.ca>...
> Greetings, all,
>
> Mr. Wieland Willker is an amateur NT textual critic who
> maintains a fairly popular webpage on the subject,
>
> http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html
>
> Recently, he also started a new discussion group dedicated
> to biblical textual criticism,
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/
>
> So I've subscribed to it a few days ago, because of my own
> interest in the subject, and especially in the subject of
> the so-called "Western text".
>
> (Actually, "Western text" is not "Western" at all; it is the
> gospel text that was originally prevalent in the _East_,
> such as in Syria! It is, in fact, the text of our ancient
> Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels, that are extremely
> neglected by mainstream biblical critics today, apparently
> because of political bias...)
>
> So I started to receive some mail from Mr. Willker's list,
> and everything was fine. But then... after a few more days,
> my membership was deleted without any further explanation!
>
> Was this because of my special interest in the Semitic
> textual tradition of the gospels? I sure think so... So this
> just shows how biased these folks are. They don't even try
> to pretend to be objective...
>
> Yes, this is the dishonesty and bias that we observe in the
> field. It's back to the middle ages with this sort of an
> intolerance to anything that doesn't agree with their
> "accepted version" of NT textual criticism, where only the
> Greek manuscripts are given any authority.
>
> Was Jesus really a Greek?! Of course not, but this is how
> the "prevailing wisdom" in the field seems to be
> formulated...
>
> Whenever I've had any sort of an exchange with Herr Willker
> in the past, he invariably refused to deal with the issues,
> and instead limited himself to a few insults. Or even
> neglected to reply at all to any of the issues I raised... I
> don't even remember one time when he tried to engage in a
> fair argument. Censorship is just so much easier to do,
> isn't it.
>
> Yes, dear friends, we're really living through the Dark Ages
> in NT textual criticism, where the opposing views are
> regularly swept under the rug, and where the ancient Aramaic
> manuscripts of the gospels, written as they are in the
> language of Jesus, are still resolutely neglected and
> avoided.
>
> How sad...
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Yuri.
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
>
> A great many people think they are thinking when they are
> merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

Yuri,

Are you really surprised that when you don't "parrot" the
Bruce Metzger party line you shall be sent to "Siberia".
Just keep thinking for yourself until you are given reasons
on why you are wrong not just ad hominem. Even as great an Oxford scholar
as Dean Burgon was smeared by Anthony Hort and Bruce Metzger.
God bless!

Jim

Yuri Kuchinsky
2004-06-10 16:37:59 EST
Jim Sheffield wrote:
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message news:<40BCE546.93E64FE9@trends.ca>...
> > Greetings, all,
> >
> > Mr. Wieland Willker is an amateur NT textual critic who
> > maintains a fairly popular webpage on the subject,
> >
> > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html
> >
> > Recently, he also started a new discussion group dedicated
> > to biblical textual criticism,
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/
> >
> > So I've subscribed to it a few days ago, because of my own
> > interest in the subject, and especially in the subject of
> > the so-called "Western text".
> >
> > (Actually, "Western text" is not "Western" at all; it is the
> > gospel text that was originally prevalent in the _East_,
> > such as in Syria! It is, in fact, the text of our ancient
> > Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels, that are extremely
> > neglected by mainstream biblical critics today, apparently
> > because of political bias...)
> >
> > So I started to receive some mail from Mr. Willker's list,
> > and everything was fine. But then... after a few more days,
> > my membership was deleted without any further explanation!
> >
> > Was this because of my special interest in the Semitic
> > textual tradition of the gospels? I sure think so... So this
> > just shows how biased these folks are. They don't even try
> > to pretend to be objective...
> >
> > Yes, this is the dishonesty and bias that we observe in the
> > field. It's back to the middle ages with this sort of an
> > intolerance to anything that doesn't agree with their
> > "accepted version" of NT textual criticism, where only the
> > Greek manuscripts are given any authority.
> >
> > Was Jesus really a Greek?! Of course not, but this is how
> > the "prevailing wisdom" in the field seems to be
> > formulated...
> >
> > Whenever I've had any sort of an exchange with Herr Willker
> > in the past, he invariably refused to deal with the issues,
> > and instead limited himself to a few insults. Or even
> > neglected to reply at all to any of the issues I raised... I
> > don't even remember one time when he tried to engage in a
> > fair argument. Censorship is just so much easier to do,
> > isn't it.
> >
> > Yes, dear friends, we're really living through the Dark Ages
> > in NT textual criticism, where the opposing views are
> > regularly swept under the rug, and where the ancient Aramaic
> > manuscripts of the gospels, written as they are in the
> > language of Jesus, are still resolutely neglected and
> > avoided.
> >
> > How sad...
> >
> > Yours truly,
> >
> > Yuri.
> >
> > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
> >
> > A great many people think they are thinking when they are
> > merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James
>
> Yuri,
>
> Are you really surprised that when you don't "parrot" the
> Bruce Metzger party line you shall be sent to "Siberia".
> Just keep thinking for yourself until you are given reasons
> on why you are wrong not just ad hominem. Even as great an Oxford scholar
> as Dean Burgon was smeared by Anthony Hort and Bruce Metzger.
> God bless!
>
> Jim

Well, Jim, in this case I didn't even merit an "ad hominem"
from the extremely open-minded Mr. Willker... :)

No ad hominem, no explanation, no nothing!

Just an expulsion, without any further words.

These are truly the Metzger/Aland cultists. They are really
the true believers, and no argument can ever shake their
certitude, or even make them doubt for a second.

In contrast, I find that the KJV folks are way more open to
argument and debate.

Is this because the KJV/Byzantine text is a lot more
authentic than that massive 19th century blunder by Westcott
and Hort, that had been foisted on unsuspecting Christian
public?

All the best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

The distressing realization is forced upon us that
the "progress" of the past hundred years has been
precisely in the wrong direction -- our modern versions
and critical texts are several times farther removed
from the original than are the Authorised Version
(KJV) and TR! How could such a calamity have
come upon us?! -- Wilbur Pickering

Jim Sheffield
2004-06-18 14:36:38 EST
Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message news:<40C8C6A7.7497A426@trends.ca>...
> Jim Sheffield wrote:
> >
> > Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message news:<40BCE546.93E64FE9@trends.ca>...
> > > Greetings, all,
> > >
> > > Mr. Wieland Willker is an amateur NT textual critic who
> > > maintains a fairly popular webpage on the subject,
> > >
> > > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html
> > >
> > > Recently, he also started a new discussion group dedicated
> > > to biblical textual criticism,
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/
> > >
> > > So I've subscribed to it a few days ago, because of my own
> > > interest in the subject, and especially in the subject of
> > > the so-called "Western text".
> > >
> > > (Actually, "Western text" is not "Western" at all; it is the
> > > gospel text that was originally prevalent in the _East_,
> > > such as in Syria! It is, in fact, the text of our ancient
> > > Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels, that are extremely
> > > neglected by mainstream biblical critics today, apparently
> > > because of political bias...)
> > >
> > > So I started to receive some mail from Mr. Willker's list,
> > > and everything was fine. But then... after a few more days,
> > > my membership was deleted without any further explanation!
> > >
> > > Was this because of my special interest in the Semitic
> > > textual tradition of the gospels? I sure think so... So this
> > > just shows how biased these folks are. They don't even try
> > > to pretend to be objective...
> > >
> > > Yes, this is the dishonesty and bias that we observe in the
> > > field. It's back to the middle ages with this sort of an
> > > intolerance to anything that doesn't agree with their
> > > "accepted version" of NT textual criticism, where only the
> > > Greek manuscripts are given any authority.
> > >
> > > Was Jesus really a Greek?! Of course not, but this is how
> > > the "prevailing wisdom" in the field seems to be
> > > formulated...
> > >
> > > Whenever I've had any sort of an exchange with Herr Willker
> > > in the past, he invariably refused to deal with the issues,
> > > and instead limited himself to a few insults. Or even
> > > neglected to reply at all to any of the issues I raised... I
> > > don't even remember one time when he tried to engage in a
> > > fair argument. Censorship is just so much easier to do,
> > > isn't it.
> > >
> > > Yes, dear friends, we're really living through the Dark Ages
> > > in NT textual criticism, where the opposing views are
> > > regularly swept under the rug, and where the ancient Aramaic
> > > manuscripts of the gospels, written as they are in the
> > > language of Jesus, are still resolutely neglected and
> > > avoided.
> > >
> > > How sad...
> > >
> > > Yours truly,
> > >
> > > Yuri.
> > >
> > > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
> > >
> > > A great many people think they are thinking when they are
> > > merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James
> >
> > Yuri,
> >
> > Are you really surprised that when you don't "parrot" the
> > Bruce Metzger party line you shall be sent to "Siberia".
> > Just keep thinking for yourself until you are given reasons
> > on why you are wrong not just ad hominem. Even as great an Oxford scholar
> > as Dean Burgon was smeared by Anthony Hort and Bruce Metzger.
> > God bless!
> >
> > Jim
>
> Well, Jim, in this case I didn't even merit an "ad hominem"
> from the extremely open-minded Mr. Willker... :)
>
> No ad hominem, no explanation, no nothing!
>
> Just an expulsion, without any further words.
>
> These are truly the Metzger/Aland cultists. They are really
> the true believers, and no argument can ever shake their
> certitude, or even make them doubt for a second.
>
> In contrast, I find that the KJV folks are way more open to
> argument and debate.
>
> Is this because the KJV/Byzantine text is a lot more
> authentic than that massive 19th century blunder by Westcott
> and Hort, that had been foisted on unsuspecting Christian
> public?
>
> All the best,
>
> Yuri.
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
>

What you got is the Stalinist practice of making their opponents
become non persons. The failure of the Metzger/Aland cultists
is becoming more obvious all the time with the work of Maurice
Robinson. Wilbur Pickering, Theodore Letis, and others. Dean Burgon
is winning the fight. FYI Burgon and his editor Miller did point
out the Aramaic texts were a problem for Westcott Hort. We need
to open up doors and not smear those who don't parrot the party
line.

Regards,

Jim
> The distressing realization is forced upon us that
> the "progress" of the past hundred years has been
> precisely in the wrong direction -- our modern versions
> and critical texts are several times farther removed
> from the original than are the Authorised Version
> (KJV) and TR! How could such a calamity have
> come upon us?! -- Wilbur Pickering

Didymos
2004-06-18 19:56:21 EST

"Jim Sheffield" <jwsheffield@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:94210c86.0406181036.194409d0@posting.google.com...
> Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message
news:<40C8C6A7.7497A426@trends.ca>...
> > Jim Sheffield wrote:
> > >
> > > Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@trends.ca> wrote in message
news:<40BCE546.93E64FE9@trends.ca>...
> > > > Greetings, all,
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Wieland Willker is an amateur NT textual critic who
> > > > maintains a fairly popular webpage on the subject,
> > > >
> > > > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ww_tc.html
> > > >
> > > > Recently, he also started a new discussion group dedicated
> > > > to biblical textual criticism,
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/
> > > >
> > > > So I've subscribed to it a few days ago, because of my own
> > > > interest in the subject, and especially in the subject of
> > > > the so-called "Western text".
> > > >
> > > > (Actually, "Western text" is not "Western" at all; it is the
> > > > gospel text that was originally prevalent in the _East_,
> > > > such as in Syria! It is, in fact, the text of our ancient
> > > > Aramaic manuscripts of the gospels, that are extremely
> > > > neglected by mainstream biblical critics today, apparently
> > > > because of political bias...)
> > > >
> > > > So I started to receive some mail from Mr. Willker's list,
> > > > and everything was fine. But then... after a few more days,
> > > > my membership was deleted without any further explanation!
> > > >
> > > > Was this because of my special interest in the Semitic
> > > > textual tradition of the gospels? I sure think so... So this
> > > > just shows how biased these folks are. They don't even try
> > > > to pretend to be objective...
> > > >
> > > > Yes, this is the dishonesty and bias that we observe in the
> > > > field. It's back to the middle ages with this sort of an
> > > > intolerance to anything that doesn't agree with their
> > > > "accepted version" of NT textual criticism, where only the
> > > > Greek manuscripts are given any authority.
> > > >
> > > > Was Jesus really a Greek?! Of course not, but this is how
> > > > the "prevailing wisdom" in the field seems to be
> > > > formulated...
> > > >
> > > > Whenever I've had any sort of an exchange with Herr Willker
> > > > in the past, he invariably refused to deal with the issues,
> > > > and instead limited himself to a few insults. Or even
> > > > neglected to reply at all to any of the issues I raised... I
> > > > don't even remember one time when he tried to engage in a
> > > > fair argument. Censorship is just so much easier to do,
> > > > isn't it.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, dear friends, we're really living through the Dark Ages
> > > > in NT textual criticism, where the opposing views are
> > > > regularly swept under the rug, and where the ancient Aramaic
> > > > manuscripts of the gospels, written as they are in the
> > > > language of Jesus, are still resolutely neglected and
> > > > avoided.
> > > >
> > > > How sad...
> > > >
> > > > Yours truly,
> > > >
> > > > Yuri.
> > > >
> > > > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
> > > >
> > > > A great many people think they are thinking when they are
> > > > merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James
> > >
> > > Yuri,
> > >
> > > Are you really surprised that when you don't "parrot" the
> > > Bruce Metzger party line you shall be sent to "Siberia".
> > > Just keep thinking for yourself until you are given reasons
> > > on why you are wrong not just ad hominem. Even as great an Oxford
scholar
> > > as Dean Burgon was smeared by Anthony Hort and Bruce Metzger.
> > > God bless!
> > >
> > > Jim
> >
> > Well, Jim, in this case I didn't even merit an "ad hominem"
> > from the extremely open-minded Mr. Willker... :)
> >
> > No ad hominem, no explanation, no nothing!
> >
> > Just an expulsion, without any further words.
> >
> > These are truly the Metzger/Aland cultists. They are really
> > the true believers, and no argument can ever shake their
> > certitude, or even make them doubt for a second.
> >
> > In contrast, I find that the KJV folks are way more open to
> > argument and debate.
> >
> > Is this because the KJV/Byzantine text is a lot more
> > authentic than that massive 19th century blunder by Westcott
> > and Hort, that had been foisted on unsuspecting Christian
> > public?
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Yuri.
> >
> > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
> >
>
> What you got is the Stalinist practice of making their opponents
> become non persons. The failure of the Metzger/Aland cultists
> is becoming more obvious all the time with the work of Maurice
> Robinson. Wilbur Pickering, Theodore Letis, and others. Dean Burgon
> is winning the fight. FYI Burgon and his editor Miller did point
> out the Aramaic texts were a problem for Westcott Hort. We need
> to open up doors and not smear those who don't parrot the party
> line.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
> > The distressing realization is forced upon us that
> > the "progress" of the past hundred years has been
> > precisely in the wrong direction -- our modern versions
> > and critical texts are several times farther removed
> > from the original than are the Authorised Version
> > (KJV) and TR! How could such a calamity have
> > come upon us?! -- Wilbur Pickering

You guys never give up, do you? Silly question . . . of course you will
not. Because all but a tiny fanatic fringe of scholars think Burgon and
Pickering approach manuscripts backwards they are Stalinist? Aland and
Metzger hardly made "their opponents become non persons." Metzger,
Aland, and every other genuine scholar simply demonstrate repeatedly,
one hundred per cent of the time, that the theologians masquerading as
classicists, archaeologists, and historians who provide scholarly
camouflage for the King James only movement, are fatally misguided and
terminally flawed. The King James only movement concocted a theology
and then attempted to make the facts fit the theory. And when the facts
disprove the theology again and again and again, these theologians try
to discredit the facts. It has not worked terribly well for the past
130 years or so, nor will concocting more lies and further obfuscating
the real issues work in the future.

Nobody but the King James Version only adherents pay much attention to
Westscott and Hort any longer. They are merely figures in intellectual
history and their work is no longer terribly relevant. Why do you guys
spend all of your time arguing with dead guys who cannot respond? Isn't
all this argument simply a devious back door approach -- camouflaged as
legitimate textual criticism -- to defending the proposition that the
King James is the sole English language Christian scripture? Is there
any other point to defending Textus Receptus to the silly extremes the
King James Only movement does? When all is said and done, Textus
Receptus is nothing more than a hastily assembled concoction of 16th
century manuscripts that has no more in common with any early Byzantine
manuscript than with any Egyptian, Caesarean, Family 1 or 13, Syriac,
Latin, or any other manuscript.

After all, when one finally wades through the tedious and contentious
layers of polemic concerning the various families of manuscripts, one
invariably ends with the supposition that if one or more representatives
of the Byzantine family is the closest to the King James version, that
particular Byzantine manuscript must be the only true version of the
word of God. That is a bizarre conclusion and there is nothing
scholarly about that process. Do you realize that is the same as
claiming that a modern English prose version of the Iliad is the most
true version of that classic, and no ancient manuscript is of any value
at all? The King James only movement is very, very short on evidence so
vainly attempts to cover this extreme paucity of manuscript,
archaeological, and historical evidence with mountains of rhetoric
appealing to religious sentiments, attempting to obfuscate the
manuscript record, and rewriting the history of the manuscripts used to
concoct Textus Receptus out of various incomplete late Medieval
manuscripts. At some basic level, the "scholarship" of the King James
only movement is dishonest at a most fundamental level. Perhaps if the
defenders of the King James only movement were trained as historians,
archaeologists, and classicists instead of theologians, the movement
might have some minimal credibility.

And no, I really cannot find it in myself to adhere to the "Authorized
Version," especially when I know that it was authorized only by a very
human bisexual King who was no paragon of Christianity and ordered this
translation for purely political purposes. Oh, did I forget to mention
that James I ordered the biblical translation that bears his name
specifically to counter the conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
Christianity of the 17th century? For those who may have forgotten,
those same conservative, fundamentalist, right wing Christians of the
17th century revolted against, deposed, and then beheaded the oldest son
of James I .



Sajo Markecz
2004-06-18 20:25:15 EST

> And no, I really cannot find it in myself to adhere to the "Authorized
> Version," especially when I know that it was authorized only by a very
> human bisexual King who was no paragon of Christianity and ordered this
> translation for purely political purposes. Oh, did I forget to mention
> that James I ordered the biblical translation that bears his name
> specifically to counter the conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
> Christianity of the 17th century? For those who may have forgotten,
> those same conservative, fundamentalist, right wing Christians of the
> 17th century revolted against, deposed, and then beheaded the oldest son
> of James I .

Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543
an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that
Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to
Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of
the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also the
other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often reprinted,
studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany's final
defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on
Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish
synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often reprinted
and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This essay
was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few exceptions ,
until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of March ,
1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons'
[ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples' Party ," formed a coalition
with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats .
By Lutheran laypersons' or non - pastors , we should remember that Martin
Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis gained
about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament ,
the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 .
On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi party
were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who died
in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons' "German
National Peoples' Party ," continued to be a member of the German Reichstag
until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party were
banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933.

>From 1929 - 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state
elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states' population
. Between 1929 - 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a
mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were
either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ]
, Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg - Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony -
Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of
Schleswig - Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state
legislature between 1929 - 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the seats
in that state legislature . Schleswig - Holstein had been taken from Denmark
by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866, although
in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after a
League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as one of
the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis gained
their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern
Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of Bavaria ,
also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic and
Lutheran population .

Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the Jews
of Germany :

When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box the
ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the jaw .
Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is lawful
, according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ; then
it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ".

" If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe ,
hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ' I baptise
thee in the name of Abraham ' ".

" We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ".

" The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary
thieves ".

" Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn , heap
earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever ".

Pages 50 - 51 in
"http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html"
, Martin Luther ~ Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener , Author
of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co. (
Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work was put
into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications - 118
Walnut - Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A.

See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National
Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern
History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism
( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association with
The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 ,
"http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml"

One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis
come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 - 1939 , was
because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 - 1919 ,
the German state of Brandenburg - Prussia had a three class electoral law ,
although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male suffrage
in 1904 , followed by Baden - Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in 1906 .
The German state governments nominated the members of the German federal
upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor and
Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house , the
Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern ,
south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938 German -
speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany .


Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views on St.
Paul's epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 - 7 , urged that the German peasant
revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his 1525
printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering
Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to the
Romans , chapter 13 : 1 - 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword are
appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a plural
word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who have the
constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the
constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms as
members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S. National
Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard
intended by the American law makers of the 1780's to protect the states from
any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become dictatorial ,
although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as likely
to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated their
black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner . However ,
I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber coated
metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use of
scopes for accurate aiming and semi - automatic rifles to control the rate
of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of rioters ,
because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they
decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants .

Martin Luther's views on predestination and God's foreknowledge are set out
in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will." Although
free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 - 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 , since
these two references from the New Testament says that God wants everyone to
be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and who is
all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see the
Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but Satan ,
the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent great
admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto Jansen
[ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God's grace, good works flow
[ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of fear
or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14 :
26 - 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or genuine
sorrow is even better .

Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time
. The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the
Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana
Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as members of
the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The Mahayana
Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a
believer's faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and the
role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do .

In 1925 universal adult male suffrage or voting rights was introduced for
national elections for the first time in the history of Japan , although by
1941 Japan had become a one - party state military dictatorship .

Since 1911 , the martial art of judo , which traces its ancestry to the
samurai martial art of jujitsu , has been a compulsory subject in Japanese
schools for students above the age of 8 years , although it was banned as a
compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1945 - 1951 , after which it was
again reintroduced as a compulsory school subject from the age of 8 years
and upwards . After 1945 , the requirement of all able - bodied Japanese
males over the age of 21 to do three years of compulsory military service ,
was abolished , although the martial arts still figure prominently in the
training of the members of Japan's voluntary Self - Defense Forces and
police force to this day . The three techniques of judo are nagewaza [
throwing ] , katamewaza [ wrestling ] , and atemiwaza [ punching and
kicking ] . Atemiwaza may only be taught to judokas above the rank of white
belt , and may only be used by them in training and self - defense , but
never in judo sporting contests . Katamewaza may only be used in judo
sporting contests by judokas who are at least above the age of 13 . During
the Second World War , when low on bullets and food , the Japanese soldiers
would often launch a banzai bayonet charge and judo - atemiwaza attack ,
preferring a heroic death to humiliating surrender .

Heinrich Himmler , the leader of the German Nazi Gestapo , who looked a bit
like Emperor Hirohito, the somewhat puppet of Premier Hideki Tojo of Japan,
a 20th Century Japanese Shogun and Temujin or Genghis Khan of Asia, once
ridiculously tried to prove that the Japanese are undercover Aryans , since
the Japanese racially mixed with the indigenous peoples of the Japanese Home
Islands , the Ainu , who once had some Caucasian - like physical features ,
and that the Japanese were really Germans who physically and linguistically
separated from the Germans of the European part of the Eurasian Continent
many thousands of years ago , genetically mutating in the process in order
to adapt to their new Asian environment . Today , there are few or no Ainu
without some Japanese ancestry . Maybe the Ainu are the distant cousins of
the Eastern Finns, or of the Guanches of the Canary Islands , who before the
Spanish conquest had blonde hair and were tall in average height , but who
like the Berbers and the Basques had dark olive brown skin , and who spoke a
non - Indo - European language , to be sarcastic . The Japanese themselves
are a mixture of Altaic people [ speakers of the closely related Korean ,
Manchurian , Tungus , Inner Mongolian [ Chinese province ] , and Outer
Mongolian [ Occupied by the Russian military from 1916 - 1991 ] languages ,
and the Malay people , including the Indonesians and Filipinos . The
southern Chinese , Taiwanese Chinese , and Vietnamese , Laotian , Cambodian
and Thai languages show a heavy Malay substratum , a result of racial mixing
between indigenous or earlier arrived people and foreign invaders .




Didymos
2004-06-18 23:02:48 EST

"Sajo Markecz" <zilmohek@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:40d387f0_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> > And no, I really cannot find it in myself to adhere to the
"Authorized
> > Version," especially when I know that it was authorized only by a
very
> > human bisexual King who was no paragon of Christianity and ordered
this
> > translation for purely political purposes. Oh, did I forget to
mention
> > that James I ordered the biblical translation that bears his name
> > specifically to counter the conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
> > Christianity of the 17th century? For those who may have forgotten,
> > those same conservative, fundamentalist, right wing Christians of
the
> > 17th century revolted against, deposed, and then beheaded the oldest
son
> > of James I .
>
> Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in
1543
> an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged
that
> Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to
convert to
> Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a
sign of
> the return of Jesus Christ in the near future . This essay, as also
the
> other printed and published essays of Martin Luther, were often
reprinted,
> studied, taught, and preached in Germany, at least before Germany's
final
> defeat in the Second World War in 1945 .In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on
> Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night of Broken Glass ] , many
Jewish
> synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had urged in his often
reprinted
> and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ." This
essay
> was often preached by most German Lutheran pastors , with a few
exceptions ,
> until May 8, 1945 . After the German federal election of the 5th of
March ,
> 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of the mainly Lutheran
laypersons'
> [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples' Party ," formed a
coalition
> with the Nazis , in order to outvote the Communists and Social
Democrats .
> By Lutheran laypersons' or non - pastors , we should remember that
Martin
> Luther called Christians " the priesthood of believers ." The Nazis
gained
> about 44% of the seats in the lower house of the German federal
parliament ,
> the Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March ,
1933 .
> On the 14th of July , 1933 , all political parties except the Nazi
party
> were prohibited in Nazi Germany . However , Alfred von Hugenberg , who
died
> in 1951 , and who was the leader of the mainly Lutheran laypersons'
"German
> National Peoples' Party ," continued to be a member of the German
Reichstag
> until 1945 , even when all political parties except the Nazi Party
were
> banned in Germany after the 14th of July , 1933.
>
> From 1929 - 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state
> elections where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states'
population
> . Between 1929 - 1933 , these following German states , all of them
with a
> mainly Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis
were
> either coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in
English ]
> , Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg - Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony -
> Anhalt , Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of
> Schleswig - Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state
> legislature between 1929 - 1933 where the Nazis had a majority of the
seats
> in that state legislature . Schleswig - Holstein had been taken from
Denmark
> by Germany in a war that had broken out in 1864 and again in 1866,
although
> in 1920 the northern third of Schleswig was returned to Denmark after
a
> League of Nations sponsored referendum had been held on the issue as
one of
> the terms of the Versailles Peace Treaty with Germany . The Nazis
gained
> their lowest votes in the rural and mainly Catholic areas of southern
> Bavaria , while they gained more votes in the northern parts of
Bavaria ,
> also known as Franconia , an area of Germany that has a mixed Catholic
and
> Lutheran population .
>
> Here are some of the writings of Martin Luther on how to deal with the
Jews
> of Germany :
>
> When Martin Luther was asked whether it is morally justifiable to box
the
> ears of a Jew , he said " Certainly . I for one would smack him on the
jaw .
> Were I able , I would knock him down and stab him in my anger . It is
lawful
> , according to both the human and the divine law , to kill a robber ;
then
> it is even more permissible to slay a blasphemer ".
>
> " If I had to baptise a Jew , I would take him to the bridge of the
Elbe ,
> hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words ' I
baptise
> thee in the name of Abraham ' ".
>
> " We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them ".
>
> " The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than
ordinary
> thieves ".
>
> " Set fire to their synagogues and schools ; and what will not burn ,
heap
> earth over it so that no man may see a stone or relic of them forever
".
>
> Pages 50 - 51 in
>
"http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.ht
ml"
> , Martin Luther ~ Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor , by Peter F. Wiener ,
Author
> of German For the Scientist , and German With Tears , Hutchinson & Co.
(
> Publishers ) Ltd . London : New York : Melbourne : Sydney . The work
was put
> into electronic format by Patsy Jackson for Tentmaker Publications -
118
> Walnut - Hermann , Missouri , 65041 , U.S.A.
>
> See also Who voted for the Nazis?(electoral history of the National
> Socialist German Workers Party) , by Dick Geary , Professor of Modern
> History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and
Nazism
> ( Routledge 1993 ) , in History Today , October 1998 , in association
with
> The Gale Group and LookSmart , 2000 ,
> "http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n10_v48/21207858/print.jhtml"
>
> One of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the
Nazis
> come to power during the economic Great Depression of 1929 - 1939 ,
was
> because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition . Between 1850 -
1919 ,
> the German state of Brandenburg - Prussia had a three class electoral
law ,
> although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal adult male
suffrage
> in 1904 , followed by Baden - Wurttemberg [ formerly Swabia ] , in
1906 .
> The German state governments nominated the members of the German
federal
> upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the German Chancellor
and
> Kaiser , had final veto powers over the German federal lower house ,
the
> Bundestag . The German Catholics are found mostly in the southern ,
> south-eastern , and western parts of Germany , and in March 1938
German -
> speaking Austria was " forcibly " annexed by Nazi Germany .
>
>
> Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 - died 1546 ] , basing his views
on St.
> Paul's epistle to the Romans ch. 13 : 1 - 7 , urged that the German
peasant
> revolt of 1525 be brutally suppressed by the German knights , in his
1525
> printed and published essay called "Against the Thieving and Murdering
> Hordes of Peasants ." St . Paul the Apostle wrote in his epistle to
the
> Romans , chapter 13 : 1 - 7 , that all authorities who wield the sword
are
> appointed by God to enforce the law . The word "authorities" is a
plural
> word however . In the U.S.A. , the adult male citizen voters , who
have the
> constitutional authority to elect their politicians , also have the
> constitutional authority under the Second Bill of Rights to bear arms
as
> members of a well regulated state militia , for example , the U.S.
National
> Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court interpreted as being a safeguard
> intended by the American law makers of the 1780's to protect the
states from
> any likelihood that the U.S. federal government would become
dictatorial ,
> although the state , county , and municipal governments are just as
likely
> to become dictatorial , as the southern U.S. states often treated
their
> black , or very dark brown minorities , in a dictatorial manner .
However ,
> I still believe that rioters should be dispersed by firing rubber
coated
> metal bullets into their legs , stomachs , and chests , with the use
of
> scopes for accurate aiming and semi - automatic rifles to control the
rate
> of fire . The safety of the riot police comes before the safety of
rioters ,
> because peaceful and legal protesters lose many civil rights when they
> decide to become violent rioters and cowardly mob tyrants .
>
> Martin Luther's views on predestination and God's foreknowledge are
set out
> in his 1525 published essay called "On the Bondage of the Will."
Although
> free will exists according to 1 Timothy 2 : 1 - 4 and 2 Peter 3 : 9 ,
since
> these two references from the New Testament says that God wants
everyone to
> be saved , God , who is eternal , with no beginning and no end , and
who is
> all knowing , knows what choices people will make in the future [ see
the
> Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18 ] . God is not the author of evil , but
Satan ,
> the fallen angel , is . Personally , I have up to a certain extent
great
> admiration for Girolamo Savonarola [ 1452 - 1498 ] and Cornelius Otto
Jansen
> [ 1585 - 1638 ] . From faith and the gift of God's grace, good works
flow
> [ see Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 by St. Paul the Apostle ]. Repenting out of
fear
> or attrition is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13 , Proverbs 14
:
> 26 - 27, and Proverbs 19 : 23 , but repenting out of contrition or
genuine
> sorrow is even better .
>
> Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same
time
> . The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed
to the
> Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana
> Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as
members of
> the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The
Mahayana
> Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a
> believer's faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and
the
> role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do .
>
> In 1925 universal adult male suffrage or voting rights was introduced
for
> national elections for the first time in the history of Japan ,
although by
> 1941 Japan had become a one - party state military dictatorship .
>
> Since 1911 , the martial art of judo , which traces its ancestry to
the
> samurai martial art of jujitsu , has been a compulsory subject in
Japanese
> schools for students above the age of 8 years , although it was banned
as a
> compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1945 - 1951 , after which
it was
> again reintroduced as a compulsory school subject from the age of 8
years
> and upwards . After 1945 , the requirement of all able - bodied
Japanese
> males over the age of 21 to do three years of compulsory military
service ,
> was abolished , although the martial arts still figure prominently in
the
> training of the members of Japan's voluntary Self - Defense Forces and
> police force to this day . The three techniques of judo are nagewaza [
> throwing ] , katamewaza [ wrestling ] , and atemiwaza [ punching and
> kicking ] . Atemiwaza may only be taught to judokas above the rank of
white
> belt , and may only be used by them in training and self - defense ,
but
> never in judo sporting contests . Katamewaza may only be used in judo
> sporting contests by judokas who are at least above the age of 13 .
During
> the Second World War , when low on bullets and food , the Japanese
soldiers
> would often launch a banzai bayonet charge and judo - atemiwaza attack
,
> preferring a heroic death to humiliating surrender .
>
> Heinrich Himmler , the leader of the German Nazi Gestapo , who looked
a bit
> like Emperor Hirohito, the somewhat puppet of Premier Hideki Tojo of
Japan,
> a 20th Century Japanese Shogun and Temujin or Genghis Khan of Asia,
once
> ridiculously tried to prove that the Japanese are undercover Aryans ,
since
> the Japanese racially mixed with the indigenous peoples of the
Japanese Home
> Islands , the Ainu , who once had some Caucasian - like physical
features ,
> and that the Japanese were really Germans who physically and
linguistically
> separated from the Germans of the European part of the Eurasian
Continent
> many thousands of years ago , genetically mutating in the process in
order
> to adapt to their new Asian environment . Today , there are few or no
Ainu
> without some Japanese ancestry . Maybe the Ainu are the distant
cousins of
> the Eastern Finns, or of the Guanches of the Canary Islands , who
before the
> Spanish conquest had blonde hair and were tall in average height , but
who
> like the Berbers and the Basques had dark olive brown skin , and who
spoke a
> non - Indo - European language , to be sarcastic . The Japanese
themselves
> are a mixture of Altaic people [ speakers of the closely related
Korean ,
> Manchurian , Tungus , Inner Mongolian [ Chinese province ] , and Outer
> Mongolian [ Occupied by the Russian military from 1916 - 1991 ]
languages ,
> and the Malay people , including the Indonesians and Filipinos . The
> southern Chinese , Taiwanese Chinese , and Vietnamese , Laotian ,
Cambodian
> and Thai languages show a heavy Malay substratum , a result of racial
mixing
> between indigenous or earlier arrived people and foreign invaders .
>
So what? You are a bigot and a thug. Why did you find it necessary to
clutter this thread with your bilious blather?




Martin Edwards
2004-06-19 03:53:59 EST
>
>And no, I really cannot find it in myself to adhere to the "Authorized
>Version," especially when I know that it was authorized only by a very
>human bisexual King who was no paragon of Christianity and ordered this
>translation for purely political purposes.

It's no good because it was authorized by a faggot? Right.

Oh, did I forget to mention
>that James I ordered the biblical translation that bears his name
>specifically to counter the conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
>Christianity of the 17th century?

There was nothing very conservaitve about it. It believed that the
authority of the King came from the consent of the people, not from
God. Its extreme wing, the Levellers, believed in a kind of
democracy.
For those who may have forgotten,
<snip>
................those same conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
Christians of the
>17th century revolted against, deposed, and then beheaded the oldest son
>of James I .
>
>
After moderates on both sides had moved Heaven and Earth, so to speak,
to reach a compromise. The tone of this post reminds me of someone: I
can't quite put my finger on it.

******Martin Edwards.******

Come on! Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway
when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.

Eddy Valiant.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/






Martin Edwards
2004-06-19 03:55:32 EST
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:25:15 +1000, "Sajo Markecz"
<*k@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

>
>> And no, I really cannot find it in myself to adhere to the "Authorized
>> Version," especially when I know that it was authorized only by a very
>> human bisexual King who was no paragon of Christianity and ordered this
>> translation for purely political purposes. Oh, did I forget to mention
>> that James I ordered the biblical translation that bears his name
>> specifically to counter the conservative, fundamentalist, right wing
>> Christianity of the 17th century? For those who may have forgotten,
>> those same conservative, fundamentalist, right wing Christians of the
>> 17th century revolted against, deposed, and then beheaded the oldest son
>> of James I .
>
>Martin Luther the German [ born 1483 and died in 1546 ], published in 1543
>an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther urged that
>Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to convert to
>Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would be a sign of
>the return of Jesus Christ in the near future .

So Luther was round the bend. That makes Torquemada OK?

******Martin Edwards.******

Come on! Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway
when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.

Eddy Valiant.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/






Martin Edwards
2004-06-19 03:56:55 EST
>>
>So what? You are a bigot and a thug. Why did you find it necessary to
>clutter this thread with your bilious blather?
>
>
>
There's a lot of it about.

******Martin Edwards.******

Come on! Nobody's going to ride that lousy freeway
when they can take the Red Car for a nickel.

Eddy Valiant.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955/





Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11   Next  (First | Last)


2020 - UsenetArchives.com | Contact Us | Privacy | Stats | Site Search
Become our Patron