Bible Discussion: Judaism - The Heart Of Intellectual Darkness

Judaism - The Heart Of Intellectual Darkness
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Slade Farney
2004-06-01 03:45:51 EST
"bushbadee" <bushbadee@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<RZLtc.1765$oh7.1714@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> "Riain Barton" <riain@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:lDHtc.12082$dn1.1389@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as
> > messiah.
> > Why?
> >
> > It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose
> > is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish
> > position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices
> > people can make about their spiritual path.
> >
> > Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: ...
>
> Good post Riain but you miss one cogent point.
>
> They reject him because he did not exist.

People seldom examine closely Jewish religious and political
arguments. This is because Jewish thought is anti-logical, supremely
inconsistent, and extremely hard to understand. Jews will argue both
sides of the same question without ever acknowledging the paradox.

This is often baffling to observers, and too often Westerners try to
ignore the problem. But it is very much there, and it is very much at
the heart of the Judaic thought process. Embracing the paradox is
essential to much of Judaism.

For example, consider the subject of Jesus. Jews will argue (as
elsewhere in this thread) that Jesus was a Jew, a trained rabbi, and
all His teachings are in accord with Judaic thought. Even where Jesus
told the Pharisees that there was no truth in them and they were sons
of the devil -- that argument too was completely in line with the
logic of the Talmud, which argues and affirms all sides of every
question.

Then (as above), Jews will argue that Jesus did not even exist. Such
a miracle: Jesus did not exist, but He was a Jew! Just for variation,
sometimes they affirm that Jesus maybe existed, but he was really
somebody else with the same name.

But this love of paradox is embodied in the Talmud, the religious
scriptures of Judaism. In her penetrating and revealing essay,
"Critical Words of Talmud Study", Carol Valentine examines those
qualities of Talmudic thought as no one else has dared. It is a
shocking truth that Americans (both Christians and Muslims) cannot
afford to ignore. Even many Jews would be appalled to learn about
Judaism's heart of darkness, the intellectual midnight of the modern
world.

See "Critical Words of Talmud Study", and the follow-on essays for
insight into the religion that hopes to rule the world.

http://come-and-hear.com/editor/critwords_1.html

"Critical Words of Talmud Study — The Talmud's internal logic and
vocabulary explained by the rabbis. Why was the Talmud inaccessible to
Western Man for so long? Subjects covered: Exegesis, Pharisee,
Pentateuch, Midrash, Torah, Idolater, Divine Law, and Halachah /
Halakha."

--Slade

Michael O'Neill
2004-06-01 04:59:16 EST
Slade Farney wrote:

<snip blurbe for "Critical Words of Talmud Study">

Here's a clue.

ALL organized religion hopes to "rule the world".

Its the human heart's insecurity writ large.

All leaders are human.

All humans err.

BTW<, to some philosophers, a paradox is the closest we can come to understanding truth.

And of course, dismissing paradoxes, or seeming anti-logic, dismisses the whole field of intuitive
and creative non-linear, non-causal thought, not to mention Zen philosophy.

What is the sound of one hand crapping, grasshoppah?

Logic, you see has one great failing. While good up to a point at dissecting the Existing, or the
Old, it simply cannot invent the New.


M.

Joebruno
2004-06-01 21:55:45 EST
s*y@bigfoot.com (Slade Farney) wrote in message news:<abe991f.0405312345.701cfe78@posting.google.com>...
> "bushbadee" <bushbadee@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<RZLtc.1765$oh7.1714@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> > "Riain Barton" <riain@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:lDHtc.12082$dn1.1389@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > > For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as
> > > messiah.
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose
> > > is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish
> > > position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices
> > > people can make about their spiritual path.
> > >
> > > Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: ...
> >
> > Good post Riain but you miss one cogent point.
> >
> > They reject him because he did not exist.
>
> People seldom examine closely Jewish religious and political
> arguments. This is because Jewish thought is anti-logical, supremely
> inconsistent, and extremely hard to understand. Jews will argue both
> sides of the same question without ever acknowledging the paradox.
>
> This is often baffling to observers, and too often Westerners try to
> ignore the problem. But it is very much there, and it is very much at
> the heart of the Judaic thought process. Embracing the paradox is
> essential to much of Judaism.
>
> For example, consider the subject of Jesus. Jews will argue (as
> elsewhere in this thread) that Jesus was a Jew, a trained rabbi, and
> all His teachings are in accord with Judaic thought.

He claimed to be the Son of God, a violation of Judaism's most
important commandment.


Even where Jesus
> told the Pharisees that there was no truth in them and they were sons
> of the devil -- that argument too was completely in line with the
> logic of the Talmud, which argues and affirms all sides of every
> question.
>
> Then (as above), Jews will argue that Jesus did not even exist.

Jews are individuals who have individual ideas. My view of Judaism is
that it's strictly a religion, while other Jews claim it depends on
who your mother is.
Some claim Abraham was a Jew, but the rabbi I know says Judaism did
not even exist until 1321 BC. One of Judaism's most attractive
qualities is that it allows discussion of different ideas. There is no
Pope in Judaism to tell everyone what the faith is.


Such
> a miracle: Jesus did not exist, but He was a Jew!

When does the same person say both of these things?Proof?


Just for variation,
> sometimes they affirm that Jesus maybe existed, but he was really
> somebody else with the same name.

I've never heard this one.



> But this love of paradox is embodied in the Talmud, the religious
> scriptures of Judaism. In her penetrating and revealing essay,
> "Critical Words of Talmud Study", Carol Valentine examines those
> qualities of Talmudic thought as no one else has dared. It is a
> shocking truth that Americans (both Christians and Muslims) cannot
> afford to ignore. Even many Jews would be appalled to learn about
> Judaism's heart of darkness, the intellectual midnight of the modern
> world.


Judaism is a FAITH! It's a matter of belief, not a matter of logic and
provable facts. Even the Catholics have things they call "mysteries of
faith". The Talmud was not written by one person, but added to by many
with different ideas.
>
> See "Critical Words of Talmud Study", and the follow-on essays for
> insight into the religion that hopes to rule the world.
>
> http://come-and-hear.com/editor/critwords_1.html
>
> "Critical Words of Talmud Study ? The Talmud's internal logic and
> vocabulary explained by the rabbis. Why was the Talmud inaccessible to
> Western Man for so long?

What do you mean by "Western man"? American Jews read the Talmud and
they are certainly westerners. British Jews read the Talmud. French
Jews read the Talmud.
The Talmud was not available in English until late in the 20th
century. The Talmud comprises 8 volumes and over 15,000 pages, so
translations take time. Jews with a Jewish education learn to read
Hebrew and some learn Aramaic.I don't like services in English. I like
the Hebrew.

The Catholic mass was in Latin until the 1960s. Can you understand
Latin? Do you think the Catholics were hiding something?

Have you ever heard the term "liturgical language"?


Shakespeare wrote a play called "Much Ado about Nothing". I think he
knew you were coming.

John P. Mullen
2004-06-02 00:50:20 EST
Hi Michael,

Not exactly. This seems to be a quirk of the Judeo-Christian religions
and not all of them, either.

For example, when was the last time you were accosted by a Quaker
wanting you to convert? Most of the members of Asian and Native
American religions are similarly disinterested in your religion, unless,
of course, you are trying to shove it down their throats.

:-)

John Mullen


Michael O'Neill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> ALL organized religion hopes to "rule the world".
>
> <snip>

Slade Farney
2004-06-02 02:39:13 EST
b*o@indystart.com (Joebruno) wrote in message news:<bf3896a1.0406011755.7efc17ca@posting.google.com>...
> sfarney@bigfoot.com (Slade Farney) wrote in message news:<abe991f.0405312345.701cfe78@posting.google.com>...
> > "bushbadee" <bushbadee@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<RZLtc.1765$oh7.1714@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> > > "Riain Barton" <riain@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:lDHtc.12082$dn1.1389@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > > > For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as
> > > > messiah.
> > > > Why?
> > > >
> > > > It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The
> > > > purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the
> > > > Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed
> > > > choices people can make about their spiritual path.
> > > >
> > > > Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: ...
> > >
> > > Good post Riain but you miss one cogent point.
> > >
> > > They reject him because he did not exist.
> >
> > People seldom examine closely Jewish religious and political
> > arguments. This is because Jewish thought is anti-logical, supremely
> > inconsistent, and extremely hard to understand. Jews will argue both
> > sides of the same question without ever acknowledging the paradox.
> >
> > This is often baffling to observers, and too often Westerners try to
> > ignore the problem. But it is very much there, and it is very much at
> > the heart of the Judaic thought process. Embracing the paradox is
> > essential to much of Judaism.
> >
> > For example, consider the subject of Jesus. Jews will argue (as
> > elsewhere in this thread) that Jesus was a Jew, a trained rabbi, and
> > all His teachings are in accord with Judaic thought.
>
> He claimed to be the Son of God, a violation of Judaism's most
> important commandment.

You cannot validate that statement with New Testament scripture,
except in the most general sense that Jesus said that God is the
Father of all people. Others claimed that for Jesus, but He did not.
Jesus, as quoted in the NT, never claimed to be more than the "Son of
Man".

But let us take your statement as an equal authority to the Gospel
writers. If Jesus was a Jew and He claimed to be The Son of God, He
was violating "God's" "most important commandment" -- obviously
something The Son of God would never do. Therefore, Jesus was either
nuttier and more illogical than your average Talmud student -- or he
was not a Talmud student and (are you ready for this?)

-- NOT A WORSHIPER OF THE JEWISH GOD and therefore
-- NOT A JEW.

> > Even where Jesus
> > told the Pharisees that there was no truth in them and they were sons
> > of the devil -- that argument too was completely in line with the
> > logic of the Talmud, which argues and affirms all sides of every
> > question.
> >
> > Then (as above), Jews will argue that Jesus did not even exist.
>
> Jews are individuals who have individual ideas. My view of Judaism is
> that it's strictly a religion, while other Jews claim it depends on
> who your mother is.
> Some claim Abraham was a Jew, but the rabbi I know says Judaism did
> not even exist until 1321 BC. One of Judaism's most attractive
> qualities is that it allows discussion of different ideas. There is no
> Pope in Judaism to tell everyone what the faith is.

Thus, the Jews have no problem naming their months after the
Babylonian Gods, worshiping the almighty En Sof, numbering the hours
with numerology, and telling fortunes with astrology. No wonder the
Jews believe in nature demons, flocks of angels, and Sophirim who work
like the demi-deities of the Hindus.

This is because Judaism is all just a matter of individual opinion.

But hey. If you step out of line, they stone you (like St. Stephen),
burn you (like the priests of Balaam), drop you through a crack in the
earth (like Korah), crucify you (like Jesus), hack you to bits with
farm implements (like King David did to the Canaanites), cut you down
with swords (as Joshua did), or cut off your head (as proscribed for
Christians who do not renounce Jesus). And I haven't named even half
of the options.

Of course not all Jews do that. But each Jew must do as he thinks
best, which means slaughtering the Gentiles in accordance to the
Jehovah Commandment that seems like the best idea at the time.

It's a very libertarian world: Murder the Gentiles as your own
conscience dictates, and no rabbi will ever call you wrong because
Freedom of Religion is a basic premise of Judaism.

Have I got it right yet?

--Slade

Joebruno
2004-06-02 09:06:38 EST
s*y@bigfoot.com (Slade Farney) wrote in message news:<abe991f.0406012239.73216917@posting.google.com>...
> bruno@indystart.com (Joebruno) wrote in message news:<bf3896a1.0406011755.7efc17ca@posting.google.com>...
> > sfarney@bigfoot.com (Slade Farney) wrote in message news:<abe991f.0405312345.701cfe78@posting.google.com>...
> > > "bushbadee" <bushbadee@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<RZLtc.1765$oh7.1714@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
> > > > "Riain Barton" <riain@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:lDHtc.12082$dn1.1389@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> > > > > For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as
> > > > > messiah.
> > > > > Why?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The
> > > > > purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the
> > > > > Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed
> > > > > choices people can make about their spiritual path.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: ...
> > > >
> > > > Good post Riain but you miss one cogent point.
> > > >
> > > > They reject him because he did not exist.
> > >
> > > People seldom examine closely Jewish religious and political
> > > arguments. This is because Jewish thought is anti-logical, supremely
> > > inconsistent, and extremely hard to understand. Jews will argue both
> > > sides of the same question without ever acknowledging the paradox.
> > >
> > > This is often baffling to observers, and too often Westerners try to
> > > ignore the problem. But it is very much there, and it is very much at
> > > the heart of the Judaic thought process. Embracing the paradox is
> > > essential to much of Judaism.
> > >
> > > For example, consider the subject of Jesus. Jews will argue (as
> > > elsewhere in this thread) that Jesus was a Jew, a trained rabbi, and
> > > all His teachings are in accord with Judaic thought.
> >
> > He claimed to be the Son of God, a violation of Judaism's most
> > important commandment.
>
> You cannot validate that statement with New Testament scripture,
> except in the most general sense that Jesus said that God is the
> Father of all people. Others claimed that for Jesus, but He did not.
> Jesus, as quoted in the NT, never claimed to be more than the "Son of
> Man".
>
> But let us take your statement as an equal authority to the Gospel
> writers. If Jesus was a Jew and He claimed to be The Son of God, He
> was violating "God's" "most important commandment" -- obviously
> something The Son of God would never do. Therefore, Jesus was either
> nuttier and more illogical than your average Talmud student -- or he
> was not a Talmud student and (are you ready for this?)
>
> -- NOT A WORSHIPER OF THE JEWISH GOD and therefore
> -- NOT A JEW.
>
> > > Even where Jesus
> > > told the Pharisees that there was no truth in them and they were sons
> > > of the devil -- that argument too was completely in line with the
> > > logic of the Talmud, which argues and affirms all sides of every
> > > question.
> > >
> > > Then (as above), Jews will argue that Jesus did not even exist.
> >
> > Jews are individuals who have individual ideas. My view of Judaism is
> > that it's strictly a religion, while other Jews claim it depends on
> > who your mother is.
> > Some claim Abraham was a Jew, but the rabbi I know says Judaism did
> > not even exist until 1321 BC. One of Judaism's most attractive
> > qualities is that it allows discussion of different ideas. There is no
> > Pope in Judaism to tell everyone what the faith is.
>
> Thus, the Jews have no problem naming their months after the
> Babylonian Gods, worshiping the almighty En Sof, numbering the hours
> with numerology, and telling fortunes with astrology.

There you go again, labelling all Jews as some do. There are Jews who
believe in such mysticism, but they are a small minority.


No wonder the
> Jews believe in nature demons,

I don't know any who do. You are making rash generalizations, again.

flocks of angels, and Sophirim who work
> like the demi-deities of the Hindus.
>
> This is because Judaism is all just a matter of individual opinion.

No, it isn't. There is doctrine in the Torah, but there is also room
for discussion on items which are not specifically stated there.
>
> But hey. If you step out of line, they stone you (like St. Stephen),
> burn you (like the priests of Balaam), drop you through a crack in the
> earth (like Korah), crucify you (like Jesus), hack you to bits with
> farm implements (like King David did to the Canaanites), cut you down
> with swords (as Joshua did), or cut off your head (as proscribed for
> Christians who do not renounce Jesus). And I haven't named even half
> of the options.

They don't do that anymore. Back in ancient times, there was not the
respect for human life that we have today. The idea of human rights is
a product of the 18th Century.

>
> Of course not all Jews do that. But each Jew must do as he thinks
> best, which means slaughtering the Gentiles in accordance to the
> Jehovah Commandment that seems like the best idea at the time.

Neither I nor any other Jews I know ever advocated that.
>
> It's a very libertarian world: Murder the Gentiles as your own
> conscience dictates, and no rabbi will ever call you wrong because
> Freedom of Religion is a basic premise of Judaism.

Judaism requires us to obey the laws of the country in which we live.

>
> Have I got it right yet?

You never had it right. You're a bigot who distorts things to fit his
agenda of hatred.You don't listen. You just babble and put words in
people's mouths. If you listen closely, you will hear people laughing
at you, Gentiles as well as Jews.
You don't realize that it is not necessary for me to get your
agreement on anything. Exposing your bigotry, lies, and ignorance to
others is my mission, and you give me lots of help. It's all down in
writing for everyone to see.


Next case.

Michael O'Neill
2004-06-02 09:51:01 EST
John P. Mullen wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Not exactly. This seems to be a quirk of the Judeo-Christian religions
> and not all of them, either.
>
> For example, when was the last time you were accosted by a Quaker
> wanting you to convert? Most of the members of Asian and Native
> American religions are similarly disinterested in your religion, unless,
> of course, you are trying to shove it down their throats.
>
> :-)

<bows>

I stand corrected John.

M.

Slade Farney
2004-06-02 10:29:43 EST
"John P. Mullen" <jomullen@zianet.com> wrote in message news:<40BD5C8C.8F6155ED@zianet.com>...
> Michael O'Neill wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > ALL organized religion hopes to "rule the world".
> >
> Hi Michael,
>
> Not exactly. This seems to be a quirk of the Judeo-Christian religions
> and not all of them, either.
>
> For example, when was the last time you were accosted by a Quaker
> wanting you to convert? Most of the members of Asian and Native
> American religions are similarly disinterested in your religion, unless,
> of course, you are trying to shove it down their throats.
>
> :-)

Michael knows only about Judaism and Judaism's ambitions. What
Michael says about other religions is an ignorant guess, but what
Michael says about Judaism is an informed confession of Judaism's
ambition to rule the world.

Normally, when approaching this question, Jews will call you
"anti-Semitic" if you make a statement like Michael's. We welcome
this spasm of unusual candor from Michael, and hope his fellows don't
beat up on him too badly for his honesty.

--Slade

Michael O'Neill
2004-06-02 10:31:25 EST
Joebruno wrote:

<snip>

> What do you mean by "Western man"? American Jews read the Talmud and
> they are certainly westerners. British Jews read the Talmud. French
> Jews read the Talmud.
> The Talmud was not available in English until late in the 20th
> century. The Talmud comprises 8 volumes and over 15,000 pages, so
> translations take time. Jews with a Jewish education learn to read
> Hebrew and some learn Aramaic.I don't like services in English. I like
> the Hebrew.
>
> The Catholic mass was in Latin until the 1960s. Can you understand
> Latin? Do you think the Catholics were hiding something?
>
> Have you ever heard the term "liturgical language"?
>
> Shakespeare wrote a play called "Much Ado about Nothing". I think he
> knew you were coming.

Absolutely.

I remember the old Latin mass with fondness.

The cadences, the hymns in Latin, all added to the sense of mystery. And yes, FWIW, I did understand
enough of the Latin to understand what was being said, a little initially, but [all the dinosaurs in
my How and Why Wonder Books had latin names, so you could pice things together] and later I studied
Latin in secondary school and foudn I was right in most assumptions.

LoL!

As for belief, when I was growing up a central tenet of the Catholic mass was the Sacrament of the
Eucharist, where the wafer offered at Communion was believed to be the Body of Christ, not
symbolically but in fact and the wine was similarly deemed to be his Blood, again a matter of belief
as fact and not symbolism.

FWIW

M.

Michael O'Neill
2004-06-02 10:33:48 EST
Slade Farney wrote:

> If you step out of line, they stone you (like St. Stephen),
> burn you (like the priests of Balaam), drop you through a crack in the
> earth (like Korah), crucify you (like Jesus),

<snip>

The Jews didn't crucify Jesus. To assert that they did is rather an odd error to make in a pseudo
liturgical thread like this one.

Haven't you read your bible?

Don't you KNOW who crucified Jesus?

If not, you're about 2,000 years behind the times.

M.
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