Bible Discussion: Re: *Church Fathers* -or- The Bible??

Re: *Church Fathers* -or- The Bible??
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John
2004-05-26 17:21:04 EST
"deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
news:c92av6$3cn$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> John wrote:
>
> > "deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
> > news:c928s7$8n7$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> >
> >>John wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>The new covenant states God will write His law upon our hearts.
> >>>It's the same law, now on our hearts instead of on tablets of stone.
> >>
> >>On what basis do you say that the law God writes on our hearts
> >>are the ones that were written on tablets of stone?
> >
> >
> > What law is it then brother?
> >
>
> Those laws applicable to people under the New Covenant. On what
> basis do you say that the law is the same as the ones written on
> tablets?
>
> >
> >>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian you
> >>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still our
> >>>schoolmaster.
> >>
> >>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a
> >>tutor."
> >
> >
> > And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out sin.
> >
>
> No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child until
> maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
> reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
> that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
> sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
> implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
> tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
> under a tutor.
>

So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
scripture.
Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they stumble
less.
Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a tutor.
It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have genuine
faith
in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself, not
only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues to
expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
The second death. This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
it indicates that Jesus did not have to die. Because with no law, there need
not be a sacrifice. If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
Jesus didn't need to die. But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own Son.
The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are faulty.
As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under sin.
Rom 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
NKJV

In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
as well as from the condemnation of the law.

Matt 1:21
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He
will save His people from their sins."
NKJV

Now Jesus became sin for us:
2 Cor 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become
the righteousness of God in Him.
NKJV

Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
But not only that, He became "one with us".
Matt 1:23-24
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call
His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
NKJV

Heb 2:17-18
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He
might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to
make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has
suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
NKJV

Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
same humanity at the cross.

Rom 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His
life.
NKJV
Rom 5:17-21
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more
those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will
reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one
man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so
through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in
justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made
sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even
so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus
Christ our Lord.
NKJV

He took the curse upon Himself:

Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse
for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus,
that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV

It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of the
law.
The condemnation, the second death.
That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified, because
they new
that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.

If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice would be
for nothing.
But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.

Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the law.
When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
requirements of
obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
We are accounted righteous through faith.
*BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us to do
what
is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:

Rom 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
contrary, we establish the law.
NKJV

Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and justification.
If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.

The law can not save or make righteous, but it serves a purpose to point out
sin
and direct us to Jesus for grace and forgiveness.

God Bless,
John








Deluxe
2004-05-26 19:03:17 EST
John wrote:

Long post John :-)

>>>>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian you
>>>>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still our
>>>>>schoolmaster.
>>>>
>>>>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a
>>>>tutor."
>>>
>>>
>>>And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out sin.
>>>
>>
>>No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child until
>>maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
>>reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
>>that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
>>sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
>>implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
>>tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
>>under a tutor.
>>
>
>
> So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
> you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
> scripture.

Once you have faith (I got hold of my Nestle-Aland: it's an active
aorist participle, generally meaning an action that is completed at
the time of the main, here 'esmen', from 'to be' under a tutor) you
are no longer under the law of moses. We can still be convicted of
sin. There is law apart from the law of moses.

> Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they stumble
> less.
> Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a tutor.

The point is that as a child one is under the authority of the
pedagogue. At a certain point of time, the pedagogue loses his
authority over you. Gal.3v25 says that the point of time is
when faith is come.

> It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have genuine
> faith
> in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself, not
> only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues to
> expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.
>
> Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
> The second death.
> This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
> The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
> That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
> it indicates that Jesus did not have to die.

Not at all. One of the reasons Jesus died was to render the law
inoperative.

> Because with no law, there need
> not be a sacrifice.

There were sacrifices before the law of moses. Jesus died whilst
the law of moses was in effect.

> If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
> Jesus didn't need to die.

Jesus died, now the law is done away with.

> But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
> He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own Son.
> The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are faulty.
> As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under sin.
> Rom 7:14
> 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
> NKJV
>
> In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
> But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
> as well as from the condemnation of the law.
>
> Matt 1:21
> 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He
> will save His people from their sins."
> NKJV
>
> Now Jesus became sin for us:
> 2 Cor 5:21
> 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become
> the righteousness of God in Him.
> NKJV
>
> Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
> That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
> A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
> But not only that, He became "one with us".
> Matt 1:23-24
> Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call
> His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
> NKJV
>
> Heb 2:17-18
> 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He
> might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to
> make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has
> suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
> NKJV
>
> Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
> same humanity at the cross.
>
> Rom 5:10
> 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
> of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His
> life.
> NKJV
> Rom 5:17-21
> 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more
> those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will
> reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one
> man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so
> through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in
> justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made
> sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20
> Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
> abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even
> so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus
> Christ our Lord.
> NKJV
>
> He took the curse upon Himself:
>
> Gal 3:13-14
> 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse
> for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14
> that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus,
> that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
> NKJV
>
> It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of the
> law.
> The condemnation, the second death.

You are saying that "the curse of the law" refers only to the penalty
required by the law, not the law itself? It doesn't make sense in
context. The "that" of v14 is a logical connective. That logical
connective means: "For the very reason that Christ has redeemded us
from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, the blessings
can now come on the Gentiles." If gentile believers are under the law,
as I think you maintain, how can v13 be the reason that the blessings
can now come to the gentiles?

> That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified, because
> they new
> that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
> That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.
>
> If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice would be
> for nothing.

Christ's death was the means by which God rendered the law inoperative,
and as you quoted from Gal3v13-14, opened up the blessings of the
Abrahamic covenant to the gentiles.

> But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.
>
> Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the law.
> When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
> I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
> requirements of
> obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
> for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
> We are accounted righteous through faith.
> *BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us to do
> what
> is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:
>
> Rom 3:31
> 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
> contrary, we establish the law.
> NKJV
>
> Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and justification.
> If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.

As I've said, there is law, but the law of moses was rendered
inoperative by the death of Christ.

>
> The law can not save or make righteous, but it serves a purpose to point out
> sin
> and direct us to Jesus for grace and forgiveness.
>
> God Bless,
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

John
2004-05-27 20:20:08 EST

"deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
news:1085612550.721392@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> John wrote:
>
> Long post John :-)

Sorry, I love God's word and could do this all day.
Please don't take our debate to mean that I judge you in anyway.


>
> >>>>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian you
> >>>>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still our
> >>>>>schoolmaster.
> >>>>
> >>>>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a
> >>>>tutor."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out sin.
> >>>
> >>
> >>No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child until
> >>maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
> >>reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
> >>that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
> >>sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
> >>implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
> >>tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
> >>under a tutor.
> >>
> >
> >
> > So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
> > you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
> > scripture.
>
> Once you have faith (I got hold of my Nestle-Aland: it's an active
> aorist participle, generally meaning an action that is completed at
> the time of the main, here 'esmen', from 'to be' under a tutor) you
> are no longer under the law of moses. We can still be convicted of
> sin. There is law apart from the law of moses.

I understand what you are saying about the tutor and becoming
a Chrirstian in that we are no longer condemned by the Law.
I see it like this, at what point is a Christian closest to God?
I believe you can get no closer then at the foot of the cross.
I believe at that point in faith YOU ARE SINLESS.
Because you are in a state of confession, repentance,
at a place where your heart is fully consecrated to God.
But we must admit that as long as we live on this earth
we will carry the old man with us, that is our sinful flesh.
It is at war with the Spirit and vice versa.
So a battle rages on, and sometimes we give in
to what our flesh desires.
I believe it is the law that is there to show us our sinfullness.
It can't forgive us, it can't redeem us, it can't save us.
But it demands obedience. So we must turn to Jesus
in confession and in repentance, which God gladly gives us.

In the Jewish sacrificial system it was the the atonement.
For us it is Jesus the lamb of God.

>
> > Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they stumble
> > less.
> > Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a tutor.
>
> The point is that as a child one is under the authority of the
> pedagogue. At a certain point of time, the pedagogue loses his
> authority over you. Gal.3v25 says that the point of time is
> when faith is come.
>
> > It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have genuine
> > faith
> > in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself, not
> > only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues
to
> > expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.
> >
> > Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
> > The second death.
> > This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
> > The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
> > That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
> > it indicates that Jesus did not have to die.
>
> Not at all. One of the reasons Jesus died was to render the law
> inoperative.

I have never read that in scripture. Please explain.

>
> > Because with no law, there need
> > not be a sacrifice.
>
> There were sacrifices before the law of moses. Jesus died whilst
> the law of moses was in effect.

One of the problems I see in this discussion is that you equate
the 10 commandments to the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was written by Moses (at God's instruction) for
the Jewish people. It was contained in the Book of the Law.
The book of the law, which included civil law, the law of priesthood,
or the Levitical law and all the other aspects of ceremonial law.
It was kept "BESIDE" the Ark of the Covenant,... what was inside the
Ark? The 10 commandments, this is where the Shekinah Glory was.
The 10 commandments were not written by Moses.
But by God himself.

Deut 10:2
2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables
which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
KJV

1 Kings 8:9
9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put
there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel,
when they came out of the land of Egypt.
KJV

In Revelation John see's this very same thing:
Rev 11:19
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant
was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an
earthquake, and great hail.
NKJV


But the Book of the Law, or the Law of Moses:
Deut 31:24-27

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a
book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore
the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of the Law,
and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may
be there as a witness against you;
NKJV

"BESIDE THE ARK"


>
> > If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
> > Jesus didn't need to die.
>
> Jesus died, now the law is done away with.

Wrong, no scripture supports that.

>
> > But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
> > He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own
Son.
> > The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are faulty.
> > As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under
sin.
> > Rom 7:14
> > 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under
sin.
> > NKJV
> >
> > In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
> > But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
> > as well as from the condemnation of the law.
> >
> > Matt 1:21
> > 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS,
for He
> > will save His people from their sins."
> > NKJV
> >
> > Now Jesus became sin for us:
> > 2 Cor 5:21
> > 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might
become
> > the righteousness of God in Him.
> > NKJV
> >
> > Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
> > That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
> > A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
> > But not only that, He became "one with us".
> > Matt 1:23-24
> > Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
call
> > His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
> > NKJV
> >
> > Heb 2:17-18
> > 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He
> > might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to
God, to
> > make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself
has
> > suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
> > NKJV
> >
> > Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
> > same humanity at the cross.
> >
> > Rom 5:10
> > 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the
death
> > of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His
> > life.
> > NKJV
> > Rom 5:17-21
> > 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much
more
> > those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will
> > reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through
one
> > man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even
so
> > through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting
in
> > justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were
made
> > sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20
> > Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
> > abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death,
even
> > so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus
> > Christ our Lord.
> > NKJV
> >
> > He took the curse upon Himself:
> >
> > Gal 3:13-14
> > 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a
curse
> > for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14
> > that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ
Jesus,
> > that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
> > NKJV
> >
> > It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of
the
> > law.
> > The condemnation, the second death.
>
> You are saying that "the curse of the law" refers only to the penalty
> required by the law, not the law itself? It doesn't make sense in
> context. The "that" of v14 is a logical connective. That logical
> connective means: "For the very reason that Christ has redeemded us
> from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, the blessings
> can now come on the Gentiles." If gentile believers are under the law,
> as I think you maintain, how can v13 be the reason that the blessings
> can now come to the gentiles?

No I don't maintain gentiles are under the law,
in that they are either condemned by it or that
it is a means of salvation-legalism, works of the law.
But read that verse again, Jesus became sin for us,
therefore He became cursed for us.
He took the penalty of the law, the death sentence.
THAT is the curse of the law.
This verse states clearly, "Cursed is the man who hangeth on the tree"
In other words the curse is death. In this case it is spiritual death,
the second death, because "all men are apointed to die once",
so it could not be the first death. Jesus became cursed of God for us.
The law it's self is not a curse. But the penalty for breaking it is.
The blessings are spiritual blessings for being "In Christ"
Rom 8:32-33
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how
shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
NKJV

>
> > That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified, because
> > they new
> > that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
> > That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.
> >
> > If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice would
be
> > for nothing.
>
> Christ's death was the means by which God rendered the law inoperative,
> and as you quoted from Gal3v13-14, opened up the blessings of the
> Abrahamic covenant to the gentiles.

You are making the assumption that the law was a means of salvation for the
Jews.
At least that is what I think you are saying. Notice you use covenant for
Abraham
but "law" with the Jews. The assumption is that the LAW WAS THE COVENANT.
While it is true the law was contained in the covenant, as the focus of the
covenant,
it was not the covenant. A covenant is an agreement, or a contract.


>
> > But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.
> >
> > Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the law.
> > When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
> > I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
> > requirements of
> > obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
> > for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
> > We are accounted righteous through faith.
> > *BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us to
do
> > what
> > is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:
> >
> > Rom 3:31
> > 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
> > contrary, we establish the law.
> > NKJV
> >
> > Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and justification.
> > If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.
>
> As I've said, there is law, but the law of moses was rendered
> inoperative by the death of Christ.

It is true that the law was not on stone tablets previous
to Mt.Sinai and Moses, but the law still existed as a spirtual princible
prior to that.
Notice Abraham obeyed the law also well prior to Sinai:
Gen 26:4-5
4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will
give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations
of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My
charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
NKJV

You seem to be saying that the law was invented at Sinai for the
Jews. When in truth, these princibles have always existed, though not on
stone tablets.

If there is no law there is anarchy. And IMO Satan brought God's law into
question.
He questioned God's authority over him.

I'm not sure why so many Christians see God's law as a
yoke, or a curse. God's law is there to protect us.
It is actually as James said, a law of liberty:
James 1:25
5 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and
is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed
in what he does.
NKJV

God's Blessings,
John



> >
> > The law can not save or make righteous, but it serves a purpose to point
out
> > sin
> > and direct us to Jesus for grace and forgiveness.
> >
> > God Bless,
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



John
2004-05-27 20:27:50 EST
You might find this website interesting.
It descibes the Ark Of The Covenant in detail.
Pretty cool!
http://www.bible-history.com/tabernacle/TAB4The_Ark_of_the_Covenant.htm

"John" <John@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:1c135d6450c3f937f3e1b2c5f80a9382@news.teranews.com...
>
> "deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
> news:1085612550.721392@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> > John wrote:
> >
> > Long post John :-)
>
> Sorry, I love God's word and could do this all day.
> Please don't take our debate to mean that I judge you in anyway.
>
>
> >
> > >>>>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian you
> > >>>>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still our
> > >>>>>schoolmaster.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under
a
> > >>>>tutor."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out sin.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child
until
> > >>maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
> > >>reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
> > >>that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
> > >>sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
> > >>implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
> > >>tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
> > >>under a tutor.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
> > > you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
> > > scripture.
> >
> > Once you have faith (I got hold of my Nestle-Aland: it's an active
> > aorist participle, generally meaning an action that is completed at
> > the time of the main, here 'esmen', from 'to be' under a tutor) you
> > are no longer under the law of moses. We can still be convicted of
> > sin. There is law apart from the law of moses.
>
> I understand what you are saying about the tutor and becoming
> a Chrirstian in that we are no longer condemned by the Law.
> I see it like this, at what point is a Christian closest to God?
> I believe you can get no closer then at the foot of the cross.
> I believe at that point in faith YOU ARE SINLESS.
> Because you are in a state of confession, repentance,
> at a place where your heart is fully consecrated to God.
> But we must admit that as long as we live on this earth
> we will carry the old man with us, that is our sinful flesh.
> It is at war with the Spirit and vice versa.
> So a battle rages on, and sometimes we give in
> to what our flesh desires.
> I believe it is the law that is there to show us our sinfullness.
> It can't forgive us, it can't redeem us, it can't save us.
> But it demands obedience. So we must turn to Jesus
> in confession and in repentance, which God gladly gives us.
>
> In the Jewish sacrificial system it was the the atonement.
> For us it is Jesus the lamb of God.
>
> >
> > > Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they
stumble
> > > less.
> > > Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a
tutor.
> >
> > The point is that as a child one is under the authority of the
> > pedagogue. At a certain point of time, the pedagogue loses his
> > authority over you. Gal.3v25 says that the point of time is
> > when faith is come.
> >
> > > It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have
genuine
> > > faith
> > > in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself,
not
> > > only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues
> to
> > > expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.
> > >
> > > Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
> > > The second death.
> > > This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
> > > The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
> > > That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
> > > it indicates that Jesus did not have to die.
> >
> > Not at all. One of the reasons Jesus died was to render the law
> > inoperative.
>
> I have never read that in scripture. Please explain.
>
> >
> > > Because with no law, there need
> > > not be a sacrifice.
> >
> > There were sacrifices before the law of moses. Jesus died whilst
> > the law of moses was in effect.
>
> One of the problems I see in this discussion is that you equate
> the 10 commandments to the law of Moses.
> The law of Moses was written by Moses (at God's instruction) for
> the Jewish people. It was contained in the Book of the Law.
> The book of the law, which included civil law, the law of priesthood,
> or the Levitical law and all the other aspects of ceremonial law.
> It was kept "BESIDE" the Ark of the Covenant,... what was inside the
> Ark? The 10 commandments, this is where the Shekinah Glory was.
> The 10 commandments were not written by Moses.
> But by God himself.
>
> Deut 10:2
> 2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables
> which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
> KJV
>
> 1 Kings 8:9
> 9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses
put
> there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel,
> when they came out of the land of Egypt.
> KJV
>
> In Revelation John see's this very same thing:
> Rev 11:19
> 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His
covenant
> was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an
> earthquake, and great hail.
> NKJV
>
>
> But the Book of the Law, or the Law of Moses:
> Deut 31:24-27
>
> 24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a
> book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who
bore
> the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of the
Law,
> and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it
may
> be there as a witness against you;
> NKJV
>
> "BESIDE THE ARK"
>
>
> >
> > > If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
> > > Jesus didn't need to die.
> >
> > Jesus died, now the law is done away with.
>
> Wrong, no scripture supports that.
>
> >
> > > But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
> > > He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own
> Son.
> > > The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are
faulty.
> > > As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under
> sin.
> > > Rom 7:14
> > > 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under
> sin.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
> > > But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
> > > as well as from the condemnation of the law.
> > >
> > > Matt 1:21
> > > 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS,
> for He
> > > will save His people from their sins."
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > Now Jesus became sin for us:
> > > 2 Cor 5:21
> > > 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might
> become
> > > the righteousness of God in Him.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
> > > That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
> > > A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
> > > But not only that, He became "one with us".
> > > Matt 1:23-24
> > > Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
> call
> > > His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > Heb 2:17-18
> > > 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that
He
> > > might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to
> God, to
> > > make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He
Himself
> has
> > > suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
> > > same humanity at the cross.
> > >
> > > Rom 5:10
> > > 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the
> death
> > > of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by
His
> > > life.
> > > NKJV
> > > Rom 5:17-21
> > > 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much
> more
> > > those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
> will
> > > reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through
> one
> > > man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
even
> so
> > > through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men,
resulting
> in
> > > justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were
> made
> > > sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20
> > > Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
> > > abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in
death,
> even
> > > so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through
Jesus
> > > Christ our Lord.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > He took the curse upon Himself:
> > >
> > > Gal 3:13-14
> > > 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a
> curse
> > > for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14
> > > that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ
> Jesus,
> > > that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of
> the
> > > law.
> > > The condemnation, the second death.
> >
> > You are saying that "the curse of the law" refers only to the penalty
> > required by the law, not the law itself? It doesn't make sense in
> > context. The "that" of v14 is a logical connective. That logical
> > connective means: "For the very reason that Christ has redeemded us
> > from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, the blessings
> > can now come on the Gentiles." If gentile believers are under the law,
> > as I think you maintain, how can v13 be the reason that the blessings
> > can now come to the gentiles?
>
> No I don't maintain gentiles are under the law,
> in that they are either condemned by it or that
> it is a means of salvation-legalism, works of the law.
> But read that verse again, Jesus became sin for us,
> therefore He became cursed for us.
> He took the penalty of the law, the death sentence.
> THAT is the curse of the law.
> This verse states clearly, "Cursed is the man who hangeth on the tree"
> In other words the curse is death. In this case it is spiritual death,
> the second death, because "all men are apointed to die once",
> so it could not be the first death. Jesus became cursed of God for us.
> The law it's self is not a curse. But the penalty for breaking it is.
> The blessings are spiritual blessings for being "In Christ"
> Rom 8:32-33
> 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how
> shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
> NKJV
>
> >
> > > That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified,
because
> > > they new
> > > that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
> > > That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.
> > >
> > > If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice
would
> be
> > > for nothing.
> >
> > Christ's death was the means by which God rendered the law inoperative,
> > and as you quoted from Gal3v13-14, opened up the blessings of the
> > Abrahamic covenant to the gentiles.
>
> You are making the assumption that the law was a means of salvation for
the
> Jews.
> At least that is what I think you are saying. Notice you use covenant for
> Abraham
> but "law" with the Jews. The assumption is that the LAW WAS THE COVENANT.
> While it is true the law was contained in the covenant, as the focus of
the
> covenant,
> it was not the covenant. A covenant is an agreement, or a contract.
>
>
> >
> > > But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.
> > >
> > > Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the
law.
> > > When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
> > > I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
> > > requirements of
> > > obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
> > > for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
> > > We are accounted righteous through faith.
> > > *BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us
to
> do
> > > what
> > > is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:
> > >
> > > Rom 3:31
> > > 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
> > > contrary, we establish the law.
> > > NKJV
> > >
> > > Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and
justification.
> > > If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.
> >
> > As I've said, there is law, but the law of moses was rendered
> > inoperative by the death of Christ.
>
> It is true that the law was not on stone tablets previous
> to Mt.Sinai and Moses, but the law still existed as a spirtual princible
> prior to that.
> Notice Abraham obeyed the law also well prior to Sinai:
> Gen 26:4-5
> 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will
> give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations
> of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept
My
> charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
> NKJV
>
> You seem to be saying that the law was invented at Sinai for the
> Jews. When in truth, these princibles have always existed, though not on
> stone tablets.
>
> If there is no law there is anarchy. And IMO Satan brought God's law into
> question.
> He questioned God's authority over him.
>
> I'm not sure why so many Christians see God's law as a
> yoke, or a curse. God's law is there to protect us.
> It is actually as James said, a law of liberty:
> James 1:25
> 5 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it,
and
> is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed
> in what he does.
> NKJV
>
> God's Blessings,
> John
>
>
>
> > >
> > > The law can not save or make righteous, but it serves a purpose to
point
> out
> > > sin
> > > and direct us to Jesus for grace and forgiveness.
> > >
> > > God Bless,
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>



Deluxe
2004-05-27 21:53:35 EST
John wrote:
> "deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
> news:1085612550.721392@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
>
>>John wrote:
>>
>>Long post John :-)
>
>
> Sorry, I love God's word and could do this all day.
> Please don't take our debate to mean that I judge you in anyway.
>

It's a pleasure to talk with you.

>
>
>>>>>>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian you
>>>>>>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still our
>>>>>>>schoolmaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a
>>>>>>tutor."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out sin.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child until
>>>>maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
>>>>reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
>>>>that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
>>>>sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
>>>>implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
>>>>tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
>>>>under a tutor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
>>>you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
>>>scripture.
>>
>>Once you have faith (I got hold of my Nestle-Aland: it's an active
>>aorist participle, generally meaning an action that is completed at
>>the time of the main, here 'esmen', from 'to be' under a tutor) you
>>are no longer under the law of moses. We can still be convicted of
>>sin. There is law apart from the law of moses.
>
>
> I understand what you are saying about the tutor and becoming
> a Chrirstian in that we are no longer condemned by the Law.

The text says nothing about condemnation for breaking the law, or
about punishment for breaking the law. It says we are no longer
under that law. Paul says he is no longer under that law in
several places.

> I see it like this, at what point is a Christian closest to God?
> I believe you can get no closer then at the foot of the cross.
> I believe at that point in faith YOU ARE SINLESS.
> Because you are in a state of confession, repentance,
> at a place where your heart is fully consecrated to God.
> But we must admit that as long as we live on this earth
> we will carry the old man with us, that is our sinful flesh.
> It is at war with the Spirit and vice versa.
> So a battle rages on, and sometimes we give in
> to what our flesh desires.
> I believe it is the law that is there to show us our sinfullness.
> It can't forgive us, it can't redeem us, it can't save us.
> But it demands obedience. So we must turn to Jesus
> in confession and in repentance, which God gladly gives us.

How can it demand obedience of those who are no longer under it?

>
> In the Jewish sacrificial system it was the the atonement.
> For us it is Jesus the lamb of God.
>

The Jewish sacrificial system was part of the law which you
say demands obedience. I really think there is a consistency
problem for those who take the position that the law of moses
is still in force, since you have to make *major* 'adjustments'
to make it fit their theological position. There are *many*
things that they don't even attempt to obey. Katrina mentioned
the feasts. At least some of them (I think all, but I'd have
to check) had to be observed in Jerusalem according to the law.
Do you go up to Jerusalem seven times a year to observe the
feasts?

>
>>>Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they stumble
>>>less.
>>>Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a tutor.
>>
>>The point is that as a child one is under the authority of the
>>pedagogue. At a certain point of time, the pedagogue loses his
>>authority over you. Gal.3v25 says that the point of time is
>>when faith is come.
>>
>>
>>>It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have genuine
>>>faith
>>>in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself, not
>>>only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues
>
> to
>
>>>expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.
>>>
>>>Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
>>>The second death.
>>>This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
>>>The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
>>>That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
>>>it indicates that Jesus did not have to die.
>>
>>Not at all. One of the reasons Jesus died was to render the law
>>inoperative.
>
>
> I have never read that in scripture. Please explain.
>

I think it was mentioned in another thread when someone quoted
Galations 3v13-14. Note the logical connective 'that' at the
beginning of v14. God promised Abraham that through him, all
nations would be blessed. The law functioned as a barrier that
prevented gentiles as gentiles from enjoying those blessings.
So Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (not just the
condemnation of the law, the law itself) by becoming a curse
for us through his crucifiction (hanging on a tree). *FOR THE
VERY REASON* that gentiles could enjoy the blessings promised
by God.

The reason that gentiles can now enjoy those blessings is
because believers are no longer under the law. This is
also what Paul is talking about in Eph 2v14 - 'the middle
wall of partition' that Christ broke down.

>
>>>Because with no law, there need
>>>not be a sacrifice.
>>
>>There were sacrifices before the law of moses. Jesus died whilst
>>the law of moses was in effect.
>
>
> One of the problems I see in this discussion is that you equate
> the 10 commandments to the law of Moses.

Apologies if it appears that way. The ten commandments are
contained in the law of Moses.

> The law of Moses was written by Moses (at God's instruction) for
> the Jewish people. It was contained in the Book of the Law.

As were the ten commandments.

> The book of the law, which included civil law, the law of priesthood,
> or the Levitical law and all the other aspects of ceremonial law.

All the laws commanded by God to Moses. Including the ten commandments.

> It was kept "BESIDE" the Ark of the Covenant,... what was inside the
> Ark? The 10 commandments, this is where the Shekinah Glory was.
> The 10 commandments were not written by Moses.
> But by God himself.

Agreed. Though you presumably agree the Moses also wrote them in
the book, and hence they are part of the law of Moses.

>
> Deut 10:2
> 2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables
> which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
> KJV
>
> 1 Kings 8:9
> 9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which
Moses put
> there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of
Israel,
> when they came out of the land of Egypt.
> KJV
>
> In Revelation John see's this very same thing:
> Rev 11:19
> 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His
covenant
> was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises,
thunderings, an
> earthquake, and great hail.
> NKJV
>
>
> But the Book of the Law, or the Law of Moses:
> Deut 31:24-27
>
> 24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a
> book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites,
who bore
> the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of
the Law,
> and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that
it may
> be there as a witness against you;
> NKJV
>
> "BESIDE THE ARK"
>

Yes, the ten commandments were both in the ark on the tablets, and
beside the ark in the book. I don't see your point. Are you saying
there is some theological significance to the location of the
recorded laws given to Moses?

>
>
>>>If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
>>>Jesus didn't need to die.
>>
>>Jesus died, now the law is done away with.
>
>
> Wrong, no scripture supports that.
>

We both know that there are many places in scripture that at
least support that reading. We have discussed some of them.

>
>>>But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
>>>He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own
>
> Son.
>
>>>The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are faulty.
>>>As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under
>
> sin.
>
>>>Rom 7:14
>>>14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under
>
> sin.
>
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
>>>But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
>>>as well as from the condemnation of the law.
>>>
>>>Matt 1:21
>>>21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS,
>
> for He
>
>>>will save His people from their sins."
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>Now Jesus became sin for us:
>>>2 Cor 5:21
>>>21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might
>
> become
>
>>>the righteousness of God in Him.
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
>>>That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
>>>A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
>>>But not only that, He became "one with us".
>>>Matt 1:23-24
>>>Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
>
> call
>
>>>His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>Heb 2:17-18
>>>17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He
>>>might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to
>
> God, to
>
>>>make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself
>
> has
>
>>>suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
>>>same humanity at the cross.
>>>
>>>Rom 5:10
>>>10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the
>
> death
>
>>>of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His
>>>life.
>>>NKJV
>>>Rom 5:17-21
>>>17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much
>
> more
>
>>>those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
>
> will
>
>>>reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through
>
> one
>
>>>man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even
>
> so
>
>>>through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting
>
> in
>
>>>justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were
>
> made
>
>>>sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20
>>>Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
>>>abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death,
>
> even
>
>>>so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus
>>>Christ our Lord.
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>He took the curse upon Himself:
>>>
>>>Gal 3:13-14
>>>13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a
>
> curse
>
>>>for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14
>>>that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ
>
> Jesus,
>
>>>that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of
>
> the
>
>>>law.
>>>The condemnation, the second death.
>>
>>You are saying that "the curse of the law" refers only to the penalty
>>required by the law, not the law itself? It doesn't make sense in
>>context. The "that" of v14 is a logical connective. That logical
>>connective means: "For the very reason that Christ has redeemded us
>>from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, the blessings
>>can now come on the Gentiles." If gentile believers are under the law,
>>as I think you maintain, how can v13 be the reason that the blessings
>>can now come to the gentiles?
>

Now I remember where I was discussing Gal 3v13-14 :-)

>
> No I don't maintain gentiles are under the law,
> in that they are either condemned by it or that
> it is a means of salvation-legalism, works of the law.

I think we agree that the law was never a means of
salvation. You seem to be saying both:
(i) Gentiles are not under the law.
(ii) Gentiles must obey the law.

That seems contradictory to me.

> But read that verse again, Jesus became sin for us,

It does not say Jesus became sin for us.

> therefore He became cursed for us.

Hence this does not follow. The verse tells us how he became
cursed for us: he was hung on a tree.

> He took the penalty of the law, the death sentence.

No. The penalty for breaking the law was usually non-capital.

> THAT is the curse of the law.

No. You missed what the curse was in v10:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is
written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are
written in the book of the law, to do them."

Those who transgress the law are cursed. That was everyone. That is
the curse of the law. I don't think you can go with your definition
of 'the curse of the law' when (i) it's explained in context (ii)
I'm not aware of anywhere where the bible defines the curse of the
law that way.

> This verse states clearly, "Cursed is the man who hangeth on the tree"
> In other words the curse is death.

No, people who died that particular form of death were described as
cursed. No other type of death is called cursed.

> In this case it is spiritual death,
> the second death, because "all men are apointed to die once",
> so it could not be the first death. Jesus became cursed of God for us.
> The law it's self is not a curse. But the penalty for breaking it is.

Sin is the ultimate cause of physical death. If that were transgression
of the law of moses, then no one could have died before those laws were
given to moses. They manifestly did.

> The blessings are spiritual blessings for being "In Christ"
> Rom 8:32-33
> 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how
> shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
> NKJV
>
>
>>>That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified, because
>>>they new
>>>that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
>>>That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.
>>>
>>>If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice would
>
> be
>
>>>for nothing.
>>
>>Christ's death was the means by which God rendered the law inoperative,
>>and as you quoted from Gal3v13-14, opened up the blessings of the
>>Abrahamic covenant to the gentiles.
>
>
> You are making the assumption that the law was a means of salvation
for the
> Jews.

How? It certainly wasn't.

> At least that is what I think you are saying. Notice you use covenant for
> Abraham
> but "law" with the Jews. The assumption is that the LAW WAS THE COVENANT.

God made a covenant with Israel through Moses. It was a different
covenant to the one he made with Abraham. The law/commandments given
to moses were part of that covenant.

> While it is true the law was contained in the covenant, as the focus
of the
> covenant,
> it was not the covenant. A covenant is an agreement, or a contract.
>
>
>
>>>But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.
>>>
>>>Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the law.
>>>When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
>>>I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
>>>requirements of
>>>obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
>>>for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
>>>We are accounted righteous through faith.
>>>*BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us to
>
> do
>
>>>what
>>>is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:
>>>
>>>Rom 3:31
>>>31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
>>>contrary, we establish the law.
>>>NKJV
>>>
>>>Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and justification.
>>>If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.
>>
>>As I've said, there is law, but the law of moses was rendered
>>inoperative by the death of Christ.
>
>
> It is true that the law was not on stone tablets previous
> to Mt.Sinai and Moses, but the law still existed as a spirtual princible
> prior to that.
> Notice Abraham obeyed the law also well prior to Sinai:
> Gen 26:4-5
> 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I
will
> give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the
nations
> of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and
kept My
> charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
> NKJV

"obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and
My laws." does not imply the laws that were given to Moses. I have no
reason to believe that Abraham knew all the laws that would be given
to Moses. How then could he have kept them? There were laws and
commandments etc before Moses. It seems to me that those are what
the verse is talking about. No need to ascribe to Abraham foreknowledge
of what God would reveal to Moses.

>
> You seem to be saying that the law was invented at Sinai for the
> Jews. When in truth, these princibles have always existed, though not on
> stone tablets.

What principles are they that tell you that you can only eat one
particular species of locust, or that you shouldn't wear clothes
made of multiple fabrics, or not to round the corners of ones
beard?

>
> If there is no law there is anarchy.

I'm not claiming that there is no law. The set of laws given by
God to Moses for Israel were rendered inoperative by the death
of Christ.

> And IMO Satan brought God's law into
> question.
> He questioned God's authority over him.
>
> I'm not sure why so many Christians see God's law as a
> yoke, or a curse.

Paul describes it as a yoke of bondage in Gal 5v1.

> God's law is there to protect us.

Not all of the laws God gave are there to protect us.

> It is actually as James said, a law of liberty:

I don't take this as a reference to the law of Moses.
Look at the way the term is used in James 2v10-12:
"[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet
stumble in one point , he is become guilty of all. [11] For he
that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now
if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become
a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as men
that are to be judged by a law of liberty.

I read the term 'a law of liberty' to be a contrast to the
law of moses.

John
2004-05-28 11:00:32 EST

"deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
news:1085709165.318295@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> John wrote:
> > "deluxe" <deluxe@alwaysme.com> wrote in message
> > news:1085612550.721392@news01.eclipse.net.uk...
> >
> >>John wrote:
> >>
> >>Long post John :-)
> >
> >
> > Sorry, I love God's word and could do this all day.
> > Please don't take our debate to mean that I judge you in anyway.
> >
>
> It's a pleasure to talk with you.
>
> >
> >
> >>>>>>>To be under the law doesn't mean what you think. As a Christian
you
> >>>>>>>are not under the condemnation of the law, but the law is still
our
> >>>>>>>schoolmaster.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Galations 3v25: "But now that faith is come, we are no longer under
a
> >>>>>>tutor."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And when we sin we fall back under the tutor. The law points out
sin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>No. The word for tutor is pedagogue. A pedagogue was over a child
until
> >>>>maturity and then had no power over the child ever again. You can't
> >>>>reach your conclusion here through normal exegesis of Gal.3v25. "Now
> >>>>that faith *is* come": present tense, note that it is 'faith', not
> >>>>sinlessness. "we are *no longer* under a tutor", there is no
> >>>>implication in the passage of being under a tutor, then not under a
> >>>>tutor, then under a tutor, then not under a tutor. We are NO LONGER
> >>>>under a tutor.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>So what you are saying is because you have faith *one time* in Christ
> >>>you can no longer be convicted of sin? That is completely contrary to
> >>>scripture.
> >>
> >>Once you have faith (I got hold of my Nestle-Aland: it's an active
> >>aorist participle, generally meaning an action that is completed at
> >>the time of the main, here 'esmen', from 'to be' under a tutor) you
> >>are no longer under the law of moses. We can still be convicted of
> >>sin. There is law apart from the law of moses.
> >
> >
> > I understand what you are saying about the tutor and becoming
> > a Chrirstian in that we are no longer condemned by the Law.
>
> The text says nothing about condemnation for breaking the law, or
> about punishment for breaking the law. It says we are no longer
> under that law. Paul says he is no longer under that law in
> several places.

Rom 3:19
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under
the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become
guilty before God.
NKJV
Notice it says "guilty before God". What does that mean? If you are guilty
before God you are
condemned.

Yes, Paul uses that term in different ways. One way is
to say "under legalism" or under a a system of works
to gain salvation. You see Paul came out of the Pharisaic
tradition that stated that acceptance with God and even
eternal life was through law keeping. This tradition
had started in the years between the OT and NT.
It was the "tradition of the fathers" Jesus spoke of.
In the OT, during the Mosaic covenant, God did not
say that Irael was saved by law keeping, or Justified by the law.
On the contrary, look at what God says BEFORE giving the
10 commandments:
Ex 20:2
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage.
NKJV
It is God who saved Israel.
Here again:
Deut 9:4-6
4 Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out
before you, saying, 'Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in
to possess this land'; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations
that the LORD is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of
your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to
possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the
LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the
word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6
Therefore understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land
to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.
NKJV

The promise was still of faith given to Abraham 430 years prior.
Obedience to the law did bring life, but not eternal life, or the life after
death:
Lev 18:5
5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I
am the LORD.
(from New International Version)

Here Jesus gives an example of this also:
Matt 19:16-20
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One,
that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You
shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false
witness,' 19'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your
neighbor as yourself.'"
NKJV

And here again God reveals the Israelites were saved by grace, not
obedience:
Ex 33:12-16

12 Then Moses said to the LORD, "See, You say to me, 'Bring up this people.'
But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said,
'I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.' 13 Now
therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your
way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And
consider that this nation is Your people." 14 And He said, "My Presence will
go with you, and I will give you rest." 15 Then he said to Him, "If Your
Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then
will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight,
except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all
the people who are upon the face of the earth."
NKJV

Ex 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth
The people whom You have redeemed;
You have guided them in Your strength
To Your holy habitation.
NKJV

Ex 34:4-8
5 Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and
proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed before him and
proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering,
and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands,
forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the
guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the
children's children to the third and the fourth generation."
NKJV

As Paul had said:
Heb 3:17-19
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned,
whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they
would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
NKJV
Notice it says "because of unbelief".


Here we see even in the wilderness the Jews were saved by looking to the
serpent
who symbolically repesented Christ:
Num 21:7-9
8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole;
and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall
live." 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it
was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent,
he lived.
NKJV

John 3:14-16
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish
but have eternal life.
NKJV

The promise of the seed to Israel, the promise was still based on faith,
the promise to Abraham.

Now back to your question of being under the law and its meaning
Notice here Paul uses that
term as the negative or in opposite to redemption:
Gal 4:4-5
but when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of
a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that
we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV
"to redeem those who were under the law" think about that.
Does that mean redeem them from obedience to the law?
Or redeem them from the Old Covenant?
Does it mean redeem from the law, or UNDER the law?
Clearly Paul uses that term in this verse in regard to eternal life,
or reconcilaition with God through the propitiation of the blood of Christ.
In other words, Paul's theology was that to be under the law is
to mean "under it's condemnation"
If "under the law" meant under a law of commandments given by God,
to be released fom that law would mean to be free to sin all you wanted to.
Because without law there is anarchy. We as Christians are not free from the
law in
that we are free from obedience, but we as Christians are free from the
condemnation that the law brings while having faith in Christ.
It is because we have died with Christ and raised in newness of life, we
have died to sin.
The 10 commandment law is still a guide in Christian conduct.
These verses verify my statemets:
Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I
do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will
not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer
I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is,
in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to
perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do
not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what
I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do
good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and
bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O
wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I
thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself
serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Here Paul is saying that in our sinful flesh we serve the law of sin, but
if we walk in the Spirit, we serve the law of God.
Rom 8:1-11
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For
the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law
of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak
through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful
flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the
righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live
according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those
who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be
carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the
law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot
please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the
Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of
Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because
of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the
Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised
Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His
Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV

Paul clearly is talking about the moral law. He agree's that the law is
holy, just and good.
But that we are incapable of keeping it of ourselves.
The law is spiritual, but I am carnal.
But if we are led by the Spirit, we fulfill the law and not the flesh.

>
> > I see it like this, at what point is a Christian closest to God?
> > I believe you can get no closer then at the foot of the cross.
> > I believe at that point in faith YOU ARE SINLESS.
> > Because you are in a state of confession, repentance,
> > at a place where your heart is fully consecrated to God.
> > But we must admit that as long as we live on this earth
> > we will carry the old man with us, that is our sinful flesh.
> > It is at war with the Spirit and vice versa.
> > So a battle rages on, and sometimes we give in
> > to what our flesh desires.
> > I believe it is the law that is there to show us our sinfullness.
> > It can't forgive us, it can't redeem us, it can't save us.
> > But it demands obedience. So we must turn to Jesus
> > in confession and in repentance, which God gladly gives us.
>
> How can it demand obedience of those who are no longer under it?
>
> >
> > In the Jewish sacrificial system it was the the atonement.
> > For us it is Jesus the lamb of God.
> >
>
> The Jewish sacrificial system was part of the law which you
> say demands obedience. I really think there is a consistency
> problem for those who take the position that the law of moses
> is still in force, since you have to make *major* 'adjustments'
> to make it fit their theological position. There are *many*
> things that they don't even attempt to obey. Katrina mentioned
> the feasts. At least some of them (I think all, but I'd have
> to check) had to be observed in Jerusalem according to the law.
> Do you go up to Jerusalem seven times a year to observe the
> feasts?
>
> >
> >>>Babes in Christ stumble and fall many times, with maturity they
stumble
> >>>less.
> >>>Just as you say, when one is "mature" they are no longer under a
tutor.
> >>
> >>The point is that as a child one is under the authority of the
> >>pedagogue. At a certain point of time, the pedagogue loses his
> >>authority over you. Gal.3v25 says that the point of time is
> >>when faith is come.
> >>
> >>
> >>>It is true that Christians are not condemened, because they have
genuine
> >>>faith
> >>>in Christ. Christ actually has taken the condemnation upon himself,
not
> >>>only for the repentant, but for the whole world. But the law continues
> >
> > to
> >
> >>>expose sin in our lives through the working of the Holy Spirit.
> >>>
> >>>Jesus payed the penalty that the law demanded. Which is death.
> >>>The second death.
> >>>This goes back to what I was saying about the law.
> >>>The law demands death for it being broken in even the smallest point.
> >>>That is why when YOU say that the law was done away with at the cross,
> >>>it indicates that Jesus did not have to die.
> >>
> >>Not at all. One of the reasons Jesus died was to render the law
> >>inoperative.
> >
> >
> > I have never read that in scripture. Please explain.
> >
>
> I think it was mentioned in another thread when someone quoted
> Galations 3v13-14. Note the logical connective 'that' at the
> beginning of v14. God promised Abraham that through him, all
> nations would be blessed. The law functioned as a barrier that
> prevented gentiles as gentiles from enjoying those blessings.
> So Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law (not just the
> condemnation of the law, the law itself) by becoming a curse
> for us through his crucifiction (hanging on a tree). *FOR THE
> VERY REASON* that gentiles could enjoy the blessings promised
> by God.
>
> The reason that gentiles can now enjoy those blessings is
> because believers are no longer under the law. This is
> also what Paul is talking about in Eph 2v14 - 'the middle
> wall of partition' that Christ broke down.
>
> >
> >>>Because with no law, there need
> >>>not be a sacrifice.
> >>
> >>There were sacrifices before the law of moses. Jesus died whilst
> >>the law of moses was in effect.
> >
> >
> > One of the problems I see in this discussion is that you equate
> > the 10 commandments to the law of Moses.
>
> Apologies if it appears that way. The ten commandments are
> contained in the law of Moses.
>
> > The law of Moses was written by Moses (at God's instruction) for
> > the Jewish people. It was contained in the Book of the Law.
>
> As were the ten commandments.
>
> > The book of the law, which included civil law, the law of priesthood,
> > or the Levitical law and all the other aspects of ceremonial law.
>
> All the laws commanded by God to Moses. Including the ten commandments.
>
> > It was kept "BESIDE" the Ark of the Covenant,... what was inside the
> > Ark? The 10 commandments, this is where the Shekinah Glory was.
> > The 10 commandments were not written by Moses.
> > But by God himself.
>
> Agreed. Though you presumably agree the Moses also wrote them in
> the book, and hence they are part of the law of Moses.
>
> >
> > Deut 10:2
> > 2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first
tables
> > which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
> > KJV
> >
> > 1 Kings 8:9
> > 9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which
> Moses put
> > there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of
> Israel,
> > when they came out of the land of Egypt.
> > KJV
> >
> > In Revelation John see's this very same thing:
> > Rev 11:19
> > 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His
> covenant
> > was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises,
> thunderings, an
> > earthquake, and great hail.
> > NKJV
> >
> >
> > But the Book of the Law, or the Law of Moses:
> > Deut 31:24-27
> >
> > 24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in
a
> > book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites,
> who bore
> > the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 "Take this Book of
> the Law,
> > and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that
> it may
> > be there as a witness against you;
> > NKJV
> >
> > "BESIDE THE ARK"
> >
>
> Yes, the ten commandments were both in the ark on the tablets, and
> beside the ark in the book. I don't see your point. Are you saying
> there is some theological significance to the location of the
> recorded laws given to Moses?
>
> >
> >
> >>>If God could have saved us by doing away with the law
> >>>Jesus didn't need to die.
> >>
> >>Jesus died, now the law is done away with.
> >
> >
> > Wrong, no scripture supports that.
> >
>
> We both know that there are many places in scripture that at
> least support that reading. We have discussed some of them.
>
> >
> >>>But God doesn't change to appease His creation.
> >>>He followed through on the just demands of the law by offering His own
> >
> > Son.
> >
> >>>The Law was not faulty, humans with sinful natures were, and are
faulty.
> >>>As Paul said in Romans, the law is Spiritual, I am carnal sold under
> >
> > sin.
> >
> >>>Rom 7:14
> >>>14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under
> >
> > sin.
> >
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>In otherwords a slave to sin. We are born slaves to sin.
> >>>But the salvation God provides is FROM sin
> >>>as well as from the condemnation of the law.
> >>>
> >>>Matt 1:21
> >>>21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS,
> >
> > for He
> >
> >>>will save His people from their sins."
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>Now Jesus became sin for us:
> >>>2 Cor 5:21
> >>>21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might
> >
> > become
> >
> >>>the righteousness of God in Him.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>Jesus took the just demands of the law upon Himself that we may live.
> >>>That is goodnews of the Gospel, that is the magnitude of God's love.
> >>>A self-sacrificing love. He stepped in our place, as a substitute.
> >>>But not only that, He became "one with us".
> >>>Matt 1:23-24
> >>>Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall
> >
> > call
> >
> >>>His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>Heb 2:17-18
> >>>17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that
He
> >>>might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to
> >
> > God, to
> >
> >>>make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He
Himself
> >
> > has
> >
> >>>suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>Having clothed Himself in the same humanity, he redeemed that
> >>>same humanity at the cross.
> >>>
> >>>Rom 5:10
> >>>10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the
> >
> > death
> >
> >>>of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by
His
> >>>life.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>Rom 5:17-21
> >>>17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much
> >
> > more
> >
> >>>those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
> >
> > will
> >
> >>>reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through
> >
> > one
> >
> >>>man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
even
> >
> > so
> >
> >>>through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men,
resulting
> >
> > in
> >
> >>>justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were
> >
> > made
> >
> >>>sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20
> >>>Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin
> >>>abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in
death,
> >
> > even
> >
> >>>so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through
Jesus
> >>>Christ our Lord.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>He took the curse upon Himself:
> >>>
> >>>Gal 3:13-14
> >>>13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a
> >
> > curse
> >
> >>>for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14
> >>>that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ
> >
> > Jesus,
> >
> >>>that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>It does not say that Christ redeemed us from the Law, but the CURSE of
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>law.
> >>>The condemnation, the second death.
> >>
> >>You are saying that "the curse of the law" refers only to the penalty
> >>required by the law, not the law itself? It doesn't make sense in
> >>context. The "that" of v14 is a logical connective. That logical
> >>connective means: "For the very reason that Christ has redeemded us
> >>from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us, the blessings
> >>can now come on the Gentiles." If gentile believers are under the law,
> >>as I think you maintain, how can v13 be the reason that the blessings
> >>can now come to the gentiles?
> >
>
> Now I remember where I was discussing Gal 3v13-14 :-)
>
> >
> > No I don't maintain gentiles are under the law,
> > in that they are either condemned by it or that
> > it is a means of salvation-legalism, works of the law.
>
> I think we agree that the law was never a means of
> salvation. You seem to be saying both:
> (i) Gentiles are not under the law.
> (ii) Gentiles must obey the law.
>
> That seems contradictory to me.
>
> > But read that verse again, Jesus became sin for us,
>
> It does not say Jesus became sin for us.
>
> > therefore He became cursed for us.
>
> Hence this does not follow. The verse tells us how he became
> cursed for us: he was hung on a tree.
>
> > He took the penalty of the law, the death sentence.
>
> No. The penalty for breaking the law was usually non-capital.

Lev 20:9-10
9 For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to
death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.
10 The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits
adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall
surely be put to death.
NKJV


>
> > THAT is the curse of the law.
>
> No. You missed what the curse was in v10:
> "For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is
> written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are
> written in the book of the law, to do them."
>
> Those who transgress the law are cursed. That was everyone. That is
> the curse of the law. I don't think you can go with your definition
> of 'the curse of the law' when (i) it's explained in context (ii)
> I'm not aware of anywhere where the bible defines the curse of the
> law that way.
>
> > This verse states clearly, "Cursed is the man who hangeth on the tree"
> > In other words the curse is death.
>
> No, people who died that particular form of death were described as
> cursed. No other type of death is called cursed.
>
> > In this case it is spiritual death,
> > the second death, because "all men are apointed to die once",
> > so it could not be the first death. Jesus became cursed of God for us.
> > The law it's self is not a curse. But the penalty for breaking it is.
>
> Sin is the ultimate cause of physical death. If that were transgression
> of the law of moses, then no one could have died before those laws were
> given to moses. They manifestly did.
>
> > The blessings are spiritual blessings for being "In Christ"
> > Rom 8:32-33
> > 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
how
> > shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
> > NKJV
> >
> >
> >>>That is why the Jewish leadership wanted to see Jesus crucified,
because
> >>>they new
> >>>that "cursed is the man that hangeth on a tree"
> >>>That Jesus hanging on a tree meant goodbye to life forever.
> >>>
> >>>If God would have just done away with the law, Christ's sacrifice
would
> >
> > be
> >
> >>>for nothing.
> >>
> >>Christ's death was the means by which God rendered the law inoperative,
> >>and as you quoted from Gal3v13-14, opened up the blessings of the
> >>Abrahamic covenant to the gentiles.
> >
> >
> > You are making the assumption that the law was a means of salvation
> for the
> > Jews.
>
> How? It certainly wasn't.
>
> > At least that is what I think you are saying. Notice you use covenant
for
> > Abraham
> > but "law" with the Jews. The assumption is that the LAW WAS THE
COVENANT.
>
> God made a covenant with Israel through Moses. It was a different
> covenant to the one he made with Abraham. The law/commandments given
> to moses were part of that covenant.
>
> > While it is true the law was contained in the covenant, as the focus
> of the
> > covenant,
> > it was not the covenant. A covenant is an agreement, or a contract.
> >
> >
> >
> >>>But God upheld the penalty the law demanded.
> >>>
> >>>Now back to the original point about the ceremonial aspects of the
law.
> >>>When I said that "Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law"
> >>>I didn't mean to imply that Jesus did not also fulfill the legal
> >>>requirements of
> >>>obedience to the 10 commandments also. Jesus DID obey them perfectly
> >>>for us. And that is why we are Justified by faith in Him.
> >>>We are accounted righteous through faith.
> >>>*BUT* the "just shall live by faith" and that faith does not lead us
to
> >
> > do
> >
> >>>what
> >>>is contrary to God's law. In fact by faith we uphold the law:
> >>>
> >>>Rom 3:31
> >>>31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
> >>>contrary, we establish the law.
> >>>NKJV
> >>>
> >>>Where there is no law, there is no need for atonement and
justification.
> >>>If there is no law, there is no sin and no need of a saviour.
> >>
> >>As I've said, there is law, but the law of moses was rendered
> >>inoperative by the death of Christ.
> >
> >
> > It is true that the law was not on stone tablets previous
> > to Mt.Sinai and Moses, but the law still existed as a spirtual
princible
> > prior to that.
> > Notice Abraham obeyed the law also well prior to Sinai:
> > Gen 26:4-5
> > 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I
> will
> > give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the
> nations
> > of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and
> kept My
> > charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
> > NKJV
>
> "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and
> My laws." does not imply the laws that were given to Moses. I have no
> reason to believe that Abraham knew all the laws that would be given
> to Moses. How then could he have kept them? There were laws and
> commandments etc before Moses. It seems to me that those are what
> the verse is talking about. No need to ascribe to Abraham foreknowledge
> of what God would reveal to Moses.

I agree, he didn't have ALL the same laws as Moses.
Certainly the feasts did not exist., The passover had not yet happened.
But I submit to you that he did have a sacrificial system and that he did
obey the voice of God.
And that that included the 10 commandments in their spiritual form
as Christ preached them.

If for instance you look at the Sabbath commandment.
It says:
Ex 20:10-11
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and
all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed
the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
NKJV
Notice here it looks *back to creation*
And now look at it in the creation context:
Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested
on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed
the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work
which God had created and made.
NKJV

God had made the day Holy-Sanctified it at the end of creation week.
This indicates to me that the day was kept prior to Sinai.
The Sabbath did not start at Sinai but at creation.

Other commandments clearly existed too.
Cain murdered Abel. Did Cain know what murder was?

Now were these commandments kept on some stone tablet someplace?
NO! Of course not. But as in the New Covenant, they were written upon
the tablets of the heart. Clearly Abraham and those before him new right
from wrong.


>
> >
> > You seem to be saying that the law was invented at Sinai for the
> > Jews. When in truth, these princibles have always existed, though not
on
> > stone tablets.
>
> What principles are they that tell you that you can only eat one
> particular species of locust, or that you shouldn't wear clothes
> made of multiple fabrics, or not to round the corners of ones
> beard?
>
> >
> > If there is no law there is anarchy.
>
> I'm not claiming that there is no law. The set of laws given by
> God to Moses for Israel were rendered inoperative by the death
> of Christ.
>
> > And IMO Satan brought God's law into
> > question.
> > He questioned God's authority over him.
> >
> > I'm not sure why so many Christians see God's law as a
> > yoke, or a curse.
>
> Paul describes it as a yoke of bondage in Gal 5v1.

A couple things here:
One is Paul says "you who seek to be circumcised"
Secondly, here he is referring to the Pharisaic tradition
of legalism when he says,
Gal 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by
law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

The inference there is that the Judaizers wanted the Gentiles to become Jews
and that to be saved or Justified you must keep the law.
Meaning Justification by works.
Now I have been very clear that no one is Justified by works.
We are saved through faith by grace.
We are Justified by faith.
But faith does not go against the 10 commandments.
As Paul says:
Rom 3:28-31
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the
deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the
God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God
who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through
faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the
contrary, we establish the law.
NKJV

The point is that we are Justified by faith alone, but that does not mean
that works are bad. Or that we should not seek obedience to God
out of love for Him and to Glorify Him.
It doesn't justify us, it doesn't save us.
But TRUE faith always produces works-obedience.
Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything,
but faith working through love.
NKJV

The yoke of bondage is not obedience to the 10 commandments, but rather
to be under a system of works or legalism.
Meaning that you attempt to gain acceptance with God and salvation through
law keeping.
When in truth obedience is the fruit of faith, working from love.


>
> > God's law is there to protect us.
>
> Not all of the laws God gave are there to protect us.
>
> > It is actually as James said, a law of liberty:
>
> I don't take this as a reference to the law of Moses.
> Look at the way the term is used in James 2v10-12:
> "[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet
> stumble in one point , he is become guilty of all. [11] For he
> that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now
> if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become
> a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as men
> that are to be judged by a law of liberty.
>
> I read the term 'a law of liberty' to be a contrast to the
> law of moses.

But notice James quotes the 10 commandments.

Deluxe it has been good discussing this with you.
I have enjoyed it. I enjoy discussing God's word
in a Christian manner and you have shown me a true Christian spirit
in the way you have presented your arguments.
I respect your beliefs.
I pray you will continue to search the scriptures on these issues.
I know that I will. You have presented some intriguing questions.

If you are interested in any extra biblical souces and discussions on
this matter, you might find this book an interesting read.
I'm obviously not a scholar or a theologian. Only a laymen.
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_under_xfire/5.htm

God's blessings to you and your family,
John




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