Bible Discussion: Jesus Couldn't Have Been Perfect.

Jesus Couldn't Have Been Perfect.
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RainLover
2004-04-27 23:22:06 EST
>From another thread... I point good enough for it's own thread.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:24:39 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote:

> Christ was taught all things by the Father and didn't need to
>learn other disciplines anywhere.


I have a question I hope we can discuss...

The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?


How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into temptation? It's a fore drawn
conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?

Since He could *NOT* have given in to temptation, He was never TRULY tempted.

And, furthermore, since He was never able to give into temptation, he never could have experienced
the human feeling's that come with such failures in life.


Also, if Jesus was taught ALL things by God, then how could Jesus know any failure? How could He
know triumph or success?

For example: If a 13 year old Jesus was learning to ride a bike and God had already taught Him, how
could he ever fall, or skin his knee, or try over and over for weeks, failing every time, until,
finally, in clicked and He Understood... excited and triumphant that he figured it out.

He could NOT have ever failed since God had already taught Him this.


In the end, how could Jesus have lived any sort of life "as a man" since He could NEVER experience
what it was like to truly be a fallable, imperfect, fragile human being?

James, Seattle

Indigo Moon Man
2004-04-28 03:50:26 EST
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote...
>
> I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>
> The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>
> How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into
temptation? It's a fore drawn
> conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation,
so how could He actually
> have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>
I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. I believe that as
a man Jesus indeed could have given in to temptation at any time but that he
did not.

--
A Voice in the Wilderness:
http://avoice.netfirms.com





Pastor Dave
2004-04-28 07:26:04 EST
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:22:06 -0700, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> spake thusly:

>From another thread... I point good enough for it's own thread.
>
>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:24:39 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Christ was taught all things by the Father and didn't need to
>>learn other disciplines anywhere.
>
>
>I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>
>The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>
>
>How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into temptation? It's a fore drawn
>conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
>have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>
>Since He could *NOT* have given in to temptation, He was never TRULY tempted.
>
>And, furthermore, since He was never able to give into temptation, he never could have experienced
>the human feeling's that come with such failures in life.

This is a question that you can go around in circles
with for the rest of your life. :) Let me just say
that He was also fully human and therefore, it would
seem that the possibility was there, which is why the
Bible says that Jesus was "in all points tempted like
as we are, yet without sin.".



± Pastor Dave Raymond ±

"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16

"The only place you find chaos in the universe
is in mans' heart." - Vume



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RainLover
2004-04-28 09:26:49 EST
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:50:26 +0200, "Indigo Moon Man" <indigomoon@bonbon.net> wrote:

>"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote...
>>
>> I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>>
>> The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>>
>> How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into
>temptation? It's a fore drawn
>> conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation,
>so how could He actually
>> have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>>
>I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. I believe that as
>a man Jesus indeed could have given in to temptation at any time but that he
>did not.

But what you're saying makes absolutely no sense at all.

If Jesus was fully a God while living as a man it would be impossible for Him to do anything that He
didn't want to do.

And how could God live 'as a man' if He already knew everything? That's not very man-like.

What sort of GOD would God be if it were possible for Him to give into temptation?????

It would be like you visiting a hospital's new born baby nursery and deciding to foul yourself since
all the people around you were doing it. You wouldn't, even though you could, because you are so
far above that.

James, Seattle



RainLover
2004-04-28 09:31:36 EST
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:26:04 -0400, Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:22:06 -0700, RainLover
><SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> spake thusly:
>
>>From another thread... I point good enough for it's own thread.
>>
>>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:24:39 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Christ was taught all things by the Father and didn't need to
>>>learn other disciplines anywhere.
>>
>>
>>I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>>
>>The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>>
>>
>>How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into temptation? It's a fore drawn
>>conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
>>have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>>
>>Since He could *NOT* have given in to temptation, He was never TRULY tempted.
>>
>>And, furthermore, since He was never able to give into temptation, he never could have experienced
>>the human feeling's that come with such failures in life.
>
>This is a question that you can go around in circles
>with for the rest of your life. :) Let me just say
>that He was also fully human and therefore, it would
>seem that the possibility was there, which is why the
>Bible says that Jesus was "in all points tempted like
>as we are, yet without sin.".

Nice non-answer. I'd expect more from a "pastor", at least a real one.

If Jesus never failed at anything, and was without sin, He WAS NOT human, nor was He a "man".

A perfect being would be, well.... perfect.

REAL humans try, and fail, and succeed, and sin. Jesus could do NONE of that (other than the
succeed part). Although, it would be a sort of hollow 'success'. It would be like winning a fixed
prize fight.

James, Seattle




Indigo Moon Man
2004-04-28 10:12:36 EST
"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote...
> >>
> >I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. I believe that
as
> >a man Jesus indeed could have given in to temptation at any time but that
he
> >did not.
>
> But what you're saying makes absolutely no sense at all.
>
Well, I don't claim to be a Biblical scholar to be sure. And sometimes I
don't do a very good job of getting across something that I am trying to say
so I do apologize for that. I did some research on your question and found
the following that I think is pretty interesting...

>From the book 'Doctrines of the Bible' copyright 1993 Word Aflame Press
(http://www.upci.org/wap/)...

Belief in Christ's true humanity is essential to salvation. "Every spirit
that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist" (I John 4:3). Again, this statement
does not require a complete theological understanding of Christology, but a
belief that Jesus actually came in the flesh. Christ's humanity is necessary
to salvation because without it there is no death, burial, and resurrection
for justification, no blood for remission of sin, no sacrifice of atonement.
The very purpose of the Incarnation was to provide a holy man to mediate
between holy God and sinful humanity. Christ's true humanity does not mean
He had a sinful nature. He was subject to all human temptations and
infirmities except sin (Hebrews 4:15). He committed no sin, and sin was not
in Him (I Peter 2:22; I John 3:5). Sin includes a sinful nature as well as
sinful acts, and Jesus had no sin whatsoever. True human nature does not
have to be sinful, for God created Adam and Eve, the first human beings, in
a state of moral innocence. In fact, sinful human nature is a distortion
and perversion of God's original design for humanity. Neither does
temptation require a sinful nature, for Satan tempted Adam and Eve in their
state of innocence. Jesus did not come in sinful flesh, but "in the
likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). He came as the second Adam, the
second representative of the human race, so that through His obedience He
could restore to humanity everything Adam lost by his disobedience (Romans
5:12-21; I Corinthians 15:45-49). God gave the human race a fresh start with
Christ so that He might yet have the perfect humanity He originally intended
when He created Adam. God will conform His church to the image of Christ
that Christ might become the firstborn of a new, spiritual family of humans
who have overcome sin and death (Romans 8:29). To fulfill this role, Christ
came with an innocent, perfect humanity like Adam had in the beginning.
Since Christ was a descendant of Adam through Mary, how did He avoid
inheriting Adam's sinful nature, unlike the rest of the race? From a legal
viewpoint, the sinful nature comes from the father. Although Eve actually
sinned first, Adam's sin had the legal consequences for the race. The
Father of Jesus was the Holy Spirit of God, so Jesus did not have a sinful
father from which to inherit a sinful nature. Moreover, the Spirit of God
sanctified Christ in the womb of Mary, separating Him from any taint of sin
and keeping Him pure.

--
A Voice in the Wilderness:
http://avoice.netfirms.com



Sky Rider
2004-04-28 19:06:49 EST
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:31:36 -0700, whimpered the following cryptic
message

>On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:26:04 -0400, Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:22:06 -0700, RainLover
>><SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> spake thusly:
>>
>>>From another thread... I point good enough for it's own thread.
>>>
>>>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:24:39 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christ was taught all things by the Father and didn't need to
>>>>learn other disciplines anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>>>
>>>The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>>>
>>>
>>>How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into temptation? It's a fore drawn
>>>conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
>>>have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>>>
>>>Since He could *NOT* have given in to temptation, He was never TRULY tempted.
>>>
>>>And, furthermore, since He was never able to give into temptation, he never could have experienced
>>>the human feeling's that come with such failures in life.
>>
>>This is a question that you can go around in circles
>>with for the rest of your life. :) Let me just say
>>that He was also fully human and therefore, it would
>>seem that the possibility was there, which is why the
>>Bible says that Jesus was "in all points tempted like
>>as we are, yet without sin.".
>
>Nice non-answer. I'd expect more from a "pastor", at least a real one.
>
>If Jesus never failed at anything, and was without sin, He WAS NOT human, nor was He a "man".
>
>A perfect being would be, well.... perfect.
>
>REAL humans try, and fail, and succeed, and sin. Jesus could do NONE of that (other than the
>succeed part). Although, it would be a sort of hollow 'success'. It would be like winning a fixed
>prize fight.

I'm not sure I follow the point of this argument.

I thought everyone knew he married Mary 'Magdalene', and had children?
After the crucifixion Joseph smuggled them out of the country and they
settled in what is now the Marseilles area of France. Joseph was known
to have travelled on and visited Great Britain before returning to
help build early Christianity which had links with Jesus brothers in
Jerusalem.....

.... surely this is common knowledge??

--
Now in print - 'The Dictionary of Playground Slang'
Make me rich! Buy a copy at all good shops or at
(Amazon UK) http://snurl.com/2spf
(Amazon US) http://snurl.com/2sps

or visit the cult site at http://www.odps.org
and leave your favourite slang or memory of school.

The_Sage
2004-04-28 21:06:45 EST
>Reply to article by: "Indigo Moon Man" <indigomoon@bonbon.net>
>Date written: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:50:26 +0200
>MsgID:<c6nno2$e7s84$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de>

>>I have a question I hope we can discuss...

>>The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?

>>How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into
>>temptation? It's a fore drawn conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD
>>never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
>>have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?

>I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. I believe that as
>a man Jesus indeed could have given in to temptation at any time but that he
>did not.

In other words, you don't have a clue so you just blindly believe without
question.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Indigo Moon Man
2004-04-29 02:32:54 EST
"The_Sage" <theeSage@azrmci.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:i7l090l4qvttkk1ctnachgn2efe7r2hsci@4ax.com...
>
> >I believe that Jesus was and is fully God and fully man. I believe that
as
> >a man Jesus indeed could have given in to temptation at any time but that
he
> >did not.
>
> In other words, you don't have a clue so you just blindly believe without
> question.
>
Uhm... that is nowhere near to what I said, but you already know that.

--
A Voice in the Wilderness:
http://avoice.netfirms.com



Pastor Dave
2004-04-29 08:08:01 EST
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 06:31:36 -0700, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> spake thusly:

>On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:26:04 -0400, Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:22:06 -0700, RainLover
>><SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> spake thusly:
>>
>>>From another thread... I point good enough for it's own thread.
>>>
>>>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:24:39 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christ was taught all things by the Father and didn't need to
>>>>learn other disciplines anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>I have a question I hope we can discuss...
>>>
>>>The bible says that Jesus lived as a man... was tempted, etc, correct?
>>>
>>>
>>>How could a man be tempted, if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to give into temptation? It's a fore drawn
>>>conclusion that a 'perfect' Jesus COULD never have given into temptation, so how could He actually
>>>have had a real threat of 'giving in' to it?
>>>
>>>Since He could *NOT* have given in to temptation, He was never TRULY tempted.
>>>
>>>And, furthermore, since He was never able to give into temptation, he never could have experienced
>>>the human feeling's that come with such failures in life.
>>
>>This is a question that you can go around in circles
>>with for the rest of your life. :) Let me just say
>>that He was also fully human and therefore, it would
>>seem that the possibility was there, which is why the
>>Bible says that Jesus was "in all points tempted like
>>as we are, yet without sin.".
>
>Nice non-answer. I'd expect more from a "pastor", at least a real one.
>
>If Jesus never failed at anything, and was without sin, He WAS NOT human, nor was He a "man".
>
>A perfect being would be, well.... perfect.
>
>REAL humans try, and fail, and succeed, and sin. Jesus could do NONE of that (other than the
>succeed part). Although, it would be a sort of hollow 'success'. It would be like winning a fixed
>prize fight.
>
>James, Seattle

And here's James, folks. The man who says I'm not a
real pastor and knows that he is not, yet he proclaims
to teach us.

The fact is, that God gave Jesus the Spirit "without
measure". Jesus could be human and still not sin, yet
be tempted.



± Pastor Dave Raymond ±

"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16

"Atheism is folly, and atheists are the
greatest fools in nature; for they see
there is a world that could not make
itself, and yet they will not own there
is a God that made it." - Matthew Henry



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