Bible Discussion: DO ANGELS LIE?

DO ANGELS LIE?
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Libertarius
2004-04-09 12:45:33 EST
SEE: Luke 1:32
"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"
which was possible only by kicking out the Romans.
Instead, the Romans captured and crucified Jesus.

Did the angel lie to poor Mary just to get her
to allow the impregnation because "God" needed a human
sacrifice??? -- L


My Name = Harvey
2004-04-09 22:21:27 EST
Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when the authors are
largely anonymous.

Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and other religious works
too?

Harvey

In article <4076D32D.E0D6968A@Nothing_But_The.Truth>,
L*s@Nothing_But_The.Truth says...
>
>SEE: Luke 1:32
>"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High;
>and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"
>which was possible only by kicking out the Romans.
>Instead, the Romans captured and crucified Jesus.
>
> Did the angel lie to poor Mary just to get her
>to allow the impregnation because "God" needed a human
>sacrifice??? -- L
>


Weatherwax
2004-04-09 23:27:08 EST

"My name = Harvey" <kiwilove_nospamplease@paradise.net.atearoa>
wrote in message news:HSIdc.9033$u%1.823219@news02.tsnz.net...
> Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when
> the authors are largely anonymous.
>
> Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and
> other religious works too?

The Koran was written by Muhammad. Whether God was lying to him
at the time is for you to determine.

--
Wax



Robert James
2004-04-10 06:01:44 EST
kiwilove_nospamplease@paradise.net.atearoa (My name = Harvey) wrote in message news:<HSIdc.9033$u%1.823219@news02.tsnz.net>...
> Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when the authors are
> largely anonymous.
>
> Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and other religious works
> too?
>

While I share in your belief that the authenticity of much of the
Bible is debatable, the author or authors of most books may easily be
determined by doing research. Hebrews is, by far, the most difficult
book to distinguish a specific set of authors for; all other books,
however, have a corresponding author or group of authors that is
widely accepted by scholars.

Ray Michael OKeeffe
2004-04-10 11:42:58 EST
Interestingly the calculator program which shows 666 and 888 and much more
gives these values using the subtraction method.

"Prophet Mohammed" - "Koran" = 666
"Church of Scientology" - "L Ron Hubbard" = 666
"Scientologist" - "Hubbard" = 666

Hardly manipulated to give what I desire, the words are the key words
relative to the specifics of each case.



--
Peace and Love
www.id-chip.4t.com

The signs of the beast are here now!
Pointing to Jesus return!
God's Signs Miracles reveal His foreknowledge before languages

Jesus in Greek = 888
(IESOUS)

"Jesus is Lord" - "=" = 888
"Jesus Christ" - "=" = 888
"Holy Spirit" - "=" = 888

"Righteous God" = 888
"Language Miracles" = 888
"Gods Anointing" = 888

"ASCII Codes Miracle" = 888
"LOGICAL MAN MIRACLE" = 888
"RF-ID-Chip" = 666

God foreknew I would do these things from curiosity to know more.
www.id-chip.4t.com/personalsummary.htm

"Ray Michael OKeeffe" = 888
www.id-chip.4t.com/m1/interview.htm

Time Stamp Prophecy Ahead of Time
Peace Treaty 28/1/2006
(22/12/2012 - 84 months)
(This stamp is in my signature as evidence)

Ray Michael O'Keeffe
r*e@888hotmail.com
(Remove the 888 to email)

(please do not send attachments for all mail with attachments is filtered as
junk mail and deleted)

news:alt.bible.prophecy
====================================


"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in message
news:gQJdc.2940$K_.82781@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "My name = Harvey" <kiwilove_nospamplease@paradise.net.atearoa>
> wrote in message news:HSIdc.9033$u%1.823219@news02.tsnz.net...
> > Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when
> > the authors are largely anonymous.
> >
> > Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and
> > other religious works too?
>
> The Koran was written by Muhammad. Whether God was lying to him
> at the time is for you to determine.
>
> --
> Wax
>
>



Dore
2004-04-10 18:15:43 EST
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4076D32D.E0D6968A@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
> SEE: Luke 1:32
> "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High;
> and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"
> which was possible only by kicking out the Romans.
> Instead, the Romans captured and crucified Jesus.
>
> Did the angel lie to poor Mary just to get her
> to allow the impregnation because "God" needed a human
> sacrifice??? -- L


The angel didn't mention "WHEN", whether in that life, or this one.

--
Dore

www.dorewilliamson.com



"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:4076D32D.E0D6968A@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
> SEE: Luke 1:32
> "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High;
> and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"
> which was possible only by kicking out the Romans.
> Instead, the Romans captured and crucified Jesus.
>
> Did the angel lie to poor Mary just to get her
> to allow the impregnation because "God" needed a human
> sacrifice??? -- L
>



Weatherwax
2004-04-10 20:47:37 EST

"Robert James" <rjames_23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c9add065.0404100201.5bda5a7d@posting.google.com...
> kiwilove_nospamplease@paradise.net.atearoa (My name = Harvey)
wrote in message news:<HSIdc.9033$u%1.823219@news02.tsnz.net>...
> > Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when
> > the authors are largely anonymous.
> >
> > Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and
> > other religious works
> > too?
> >
>
> While I share in your belief that the authenticity of much of
> the Bible is debatable, the author or authors of most books
> may easily be determined by doing research. Hebrews is,
> by far, the most difficult book to distinguish a specific set
> of authors for; all other books, however, have a
> corresponding author or group of authors that is
> widely accepted by scholars.

In the Old Testament, most of the prophets are accepted as the
writers of the books bearing their names, although Isaiah 40- on
is now attributed to one or more other writers. There are two
authors in Zechariah, and Malichi is merely a continuation of
Zechariah.

Three distinct strands of narrative has been identified in
Genesis and Exodus (i.e. J. P. and E). Then there were redactors
who combined the strands together. Leviticus and numbers are
mostly the P strand. Deuteronomy is credited to D, or "the
Deuteronomist. But there appears to have been at least two
Deuteronomists.

Deuteronomy through 2 Kings (except for Ruth) forms a continuous
history and was assembled together by the Deuteronomist from
older stories. Ruth was by an unknown author, as is Chronicles.

Ezra and Nehamiah contains material which was probably written by
those leaders, but sections appear to be out of place, so that we
cannot tell which author is speaking.

Job is often attributed to Moses, but the authors are unknown.
In fact, there are at least three authors contributing to Job,
each with a different theological viewpoint. The authors can be
separated into the prose author (Job 1-2 and 42:7-17,) the
dialogue author (Job 3 through 31 plus 38 through 42:6), and the
Elihu speeches (Job 32 through 37.)

Psalms are attributed to David, but are of unknown authors.
Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Songs are attributed to
Solomon, but are of unknown authors.

Daniel is a 2nd century b.c.e. forgery.

In the New Testament the Gospel of Matthew could not have been
written by the apostle Matthew. Mark and Luke may have been
written by men of those names, but we know so little about them
that it's almost the same as being anonymous. The gospel of
John may contain eyewitness testimony from the Apostle John, but
the evidence of redactions and rearranging is so great that there
is no way of determining what is from John.

The book of Acts appears to be by Luke again. Luke did travel
with Paul, but the stories from chapter 1 to 15 had to come from
somebody else.

Most of the letters ascribed to Paul appear to be genuine and
from him, but 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are forgeries.

As was said, Hebrews is by an unknown author. James, might have
been written by James the brother of Jesus. First Peter might be
by Peter, but second Peter is a forgery. Jude is also a forgery.

The letters of John may be from a John, but which John?
Revelation is also supposed to be from a John, but which John?
We know that there was both an apostle John, and a John the
Elder, but we do not know who wrote which, or if they were both
by the same person. Some apologists try to claim that the
Apostle and the Elder were the same, but that is unlikely.

--
Wax



Robert James
2004-04-11 04:36:00 EST
"Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in message news:<JA0ec.10903$i74.214159@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> Deuteronomy through 2 Kings (except for Ruth) forms a continuous
> history and was assembled together by the Deuteronomist from
> older stories. Ruth was by an unknown author, as is Chronicles.
>

Many people believe Ruth was written by Samuel because of how it
clearly follows the formula of the later books.

There is even more evidence that Ezra wrote Chronicles because of the
obvious way Ezra begins by using the first two verses that Chronicles
ends with. The Talmud gives a better understanding of how the history
described in Chronicles attributes these books to the same by
comparing their presentation to the book of Ezra. And, naturally,
Ezra writes detailed genealogies in Chronicles as others might not
have done.

> Psalms are attributed to David, but are of unknown authors.
> Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Songs are attributed to
> Solomon, but are of unknown authors.
>

These books are obviously unique in their contributions to the Bible
and while most of Psalms may have been written by David, it is
understood that other writings were used as well. A clear list of all
contributors to the books you mentioned above probably would not
enhance my understanding of the scripture, however.

> Most of the letters ascribed to Paul appear to be genuine and
> from him, but 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are forgeries.
>

Elaborate on why you believe 2 Timothy and Titus are forgeries. I
understood earlier when you stated you believed Daniel was a forgery
because I, too, have heard debate on the authenticity. 2 Timothy and
Titus are not among the books I am very skeptical about and until now
I have never questioned their authorship to anyone other than Paul.

> The letters of John may be from a John, but which John?
> Revelation is also supposed to be from a John, but which John?
> We know that there was both an apostle John, and a John the
> Elder, but we do not know who wrote which, or if they were both
> by the same person. Some apologists try to claim that the
> Apostle and the Elder were the same, but that is unlikely.

These letters are attributed to the same Palestinian Jew apostle John,
son of Zebedee and Salome, who was a fisherman and wrote the book of
John and Revelation around 70-90 A.D.

Weatherwax
2004-04-11 18:03:57 EST

"Robert James" <rjames_23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> "Weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in
> >
> > Deuteronomy through 2 Kings (except for Ruth) forms
> > a continuous history and was assembled together by
> > the Deuteronomist from older stories. Ruth was by an
> > unknown author, as is Chronicles.
> >
>
> Many people believe Ruth was written by Samuel because
> of how it clearly follows the formula of the later books.

I don't know why anybody would attribute 1 & 2 Samuel to the
prophet Samuel. After all, the prophet died at 1 Samuel 25:1
which would reduce the death of Saul and the reign of David as
king to prophecy. Some theologians go as far as to attribute 1 &
2 Kings to Samuel.

Ruth bears very little resemblence to 1 & 2 Samuel, It was placed
after Judges only because it takes place at that time. In the
Hebrew Scriptures, Ruth is placed among the "Writings" which were
canonized much later than 1 & 2 Samuel.

> There is even more evidence that Ezra wrote Chronicles
> because of the obvious way Ezra begins by using the first
> two verses that Chronicles ends with. The Talmud gives
> a better understanding of how the history described in
> Chronicles attributes these books to the same by
> comparing their presentation to the book of Ezra. And,
> naturally, Ezra writes detailed genealogies in Chronicles
> as others might not have done.

It is possible that Ezra wrote Chronicles, but nothing sure. The
genealogies Chronicles are merely copied from the Torah.

> > Psalms are attributed to David, but are of unknown authors.
> > Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Songs are attributed to
> > Solomon, but are of unknown authors.
> >
>
> These books are obviously unique in their contributions to
> the Bible and while most of Psalms may have been written
> by David, it is understood that other writings were used as
> well. A clear list of all contributors to the books you
> mentioned above probably would not enhance my
> understanding of the scripture, however.

There is no way of knowing if any of the psalms were written by
David. It was common for ancient writers to attribute their work
to well known heros of the past. The psalms are probably a
collection of religius poems written by several authors over many
years. The same with the other books mentioned above. They are
merely attributed to a well known hero.

> > Most of the letters ascribed to Paul appear to be
> > genuine and from him, but 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus
> > are forgeries.
> >
>
> Elaborate on why you believe 2 Timothy and Titus are
> forgeries. I understood earlier when you stated you
> believed Daniel was a forgery because I, too, have
> heard debate on the authenticity. 2 Timothy and
> Titus are not among the books I am very skeptical
> about and until now I have never questioned their
> authorship to anyone other than Paul.

Together, these three letters are known as "the Pastorials".
To me, the most obvious reason for not attributing them to Paul
is the complete change in style. The letters to Timothy and
Titus are didactic. They merely gives rules to obey and follow.
While the other letters attributed to Paul are polemical. Paul
presents arguements and debates the issues.

It is also impossible to place the letters within the chronology
of Acts and Paul's other letters, although I do not recall the
detail on that. Some apologists have answered this objection by
saying that after Paul's imprisonment in Rome at the end of Acts,
that Paul was released, traveled extensively, and was then
imprisoned again in Rome where he suffered martyrdom. An
unlkikely scenerio.

Authorities have studied the letters and state that the form of
Greek, and vocabulary are closer to the literary koine, similar
to Luke and 1 Peter, than the popular koine used in Paul's other
letters. There is also a difference in theology with less
omphasis on Pauline themes such as the Spirit, freedom from the
law, and jutification through faith.

> > The letters of John may be from a John, but which John?
> > Revelation is also supposed to be from a John, but which
> > John? We know that there was both an apostle John,
> > and a John the Elder, but we do not know who wrote
> > which, or if they were both by the same person. Some
> > apologists try to claim that the Apostle and the Elder
> > were the same, but that is unlikely.
>
> These letters are attributed to the same Palestinian Jew
> apostle John, son of Zebedee and Salome, who was a
> fisherman and wrote the book of John and Revelation
> around 70-90 A.D.

All we really know is the name John. Could that be the Apostle
John? John Mark? John the Elder? an unknown John? or a
pseudonymous author using the name John? We do not know. Church
tradition, which itself dates years after their publication,
indicates that even then there was no consensus on who the author
was.

--
Wax





My Name = Harvey
2004-04-11 18:55:11 EST
Christians get over these facts by the phrasing that these writers
were inspired by god.
But all religions are likewise inspired by god - and accordingly are
just as valid?
Reconciling the validity of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam is hard to
do - to make any? sense of their presences and their claims.

Harvey


In article <JA0ec.10903$i74.214159@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
w*x@worldnet.net says...
>
>
>"Robert James" <rjames_23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:c9add065.0404100201.5bda5a7d@posting.google.com...
>> kiwilove_nospamplease@paradise.net.atearoa (My name = Harvey)
>wrote in message news:<HSIdc.9033$u%1.823219@news02.tsnz.net>...
>> > Angels may not lie but the Bible can - especially when
>> > the authors are largely anonymous.
>> >
>> > Didn't anonymous also write the Koran, Torah and
>> > other religious works
>> > too?
>> >
>>
>> While I share in your belief that the authenticity of much of
>> the Bible is debatable, the author or authors of most books
>> may easily be determined by doing research. Hebrews is,
>> by far, the most difficult book to distinguish a specific set
>> of authors for; all other books, however, have a
>> corresponding author or group of authors that is
>> widely accepted by scholars.
>
>In the Old Testament, most of the prophets are accepted as the
>writers of the books bearing their names, although Isaiah 40- on
>is now attributed to one or more other writers. There are two
>authors in Zechariah, and Malichi is merely a continuation of
>Zechariah.
>
>Three distinct strands of narrative has been identified in
>Genesis and Exodus (i.e. J. P. and E). Then there were redactors
>who combined the strands together. Leviticus and numbers are
>mostly the P strand. Deuteronomy is credited to D, or "the
>Deuteronomist. But there appears to have been at least two
>Deuteronomists.
>
>Deuteronomy through 2 Kings (except for Ruth) forms a continuous
>history and was assembled together by the Deuteronomist from
>older stories. Ruth was by an unknown author, as is Chronicles.
>
>Ezra and Nehamiah contains material which was probably written by
>those leaders, but sections appear to be out of place, so that we
>cannot tell which author is speaking.
>
>Job is often attributed to Moses, but the authors are unknown.
>In fact, there are at least three authors contributing to Job,
>each with a different theological viewpoint. The authors can be
>separated into the prose author (Job 1-2 and 42:7-17,) the
>dialogue author (Job 3 through 31 plus 38 through 42:6), and the
>Elihu speeches (Job 32 through 37.)
>
>Psalms are attributed to David, but are of unknown authors.
>Proverbs, Ecclesiates and Song of Songs are attributed to
>Solomon, but are of unknown authors.
>
>Daniel is a 2nd century b.c.e. forgery.
>
>In the New Testament the Gospel of Matthew could not have been
>written by the apostle Matthew. Mark and Luke may have been
>written by men of those names, but we know so little about them
>that it's almost the same as being anonymous. The gospel of
>John may contain eyewitness testimony from the Apostle John, but
>the evidence of redactions and rearranging is so great that there
>is no way of determining what is from John.
>
>The book of Acts appears to be by Luke again. Luke did travel
>with Paul, but the stories from chapter 1 to 15 had to come from
>somebody else.
>
>Most of the letters ascribed to Paul appear to be genuine and
>from him, but 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus are forgeries.
>
>As was said, Hebrews is by an unknown author. James, might have
>been written by James the brother of Jesus. First Peter might be
>by Peter, but second Peter is a forgery. Jude is also a forgery.
>
>The letters of John may be from a John, but which John?
>Revelation is also supposed to be from a John, but which John?
>We know that there was both an apostle John, and a John the
>Elder, but we do not know who wrote which, or if they were both
>by the same person. Some apologists try to claim that the
>Apostle and the Elder were the same, but that is unlikely.
>
>--
>Wax
>
>

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