Bible Discussion: A Question For The 'process-striving-delusionist'.

A Question For The 'process-striving-delusionist'.
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Michael Christ
2003-06-25 18:42:47 EST
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,

Is sinning evil fruit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Michael Christ
2003-06-26 00:23:36 EST
Michael Christ wrote:
> > Matthew 7:18
> > A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,
> >
> > Is sinning evil fruit?

TT wrote:
> Excellent point Mike (I mean it... really!)...

Thank you very much.

Michael Christ wrote:
> I guess the question then is, are we a good tree of our own volition- or
do
> we need the grace of God and the cleansing of the Blood of Jesus Christ in
> order to be 'good'- thereby bearing good fruit more and more as the grace
of
> God works it's way through our lives?

No guessing TT.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.

The question is, are you a good tree? That is, a tree without evil fruit?

Or are you a corrupt tree that brings forth corrupt fruit/sin?

You can't be both.


TT wrote:
> It's a great point for discussion people!
> Thanks Mike. :)

Your most welcome.

Anything to wake you up...well, try to anyway.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




The Teacher
2003-06-26 03:05:36 EST
Yes, sin is sin- therefore it is evil fruit.
But that follows that there may be sin in my life as I am evil apart from
the Lord. So in response to your question- no I am not a good tree, as of my
own strength I can only bear bad (evil) fruit.

Here is my joy though- Christ in me is the hope of glory, and not me in me.
So through the power of the Lord's authority I may be made more and more
like Him- the perfect sinless Son of God... and less and less like myself-
the sinner.

That being said- I've not said we do not need to pursue holiness (and
whole-i-ness too)... we do and we should. But this can only come out of
relationship with God. There is no other means by which man can be saved- so
good works must, must, must be an overflow of salvation and not the reason
for it.

And in closing (for the now anyway)- I may be a tree that bears bad fruit
(because I am a sinner in need of salvtion, like every man and woman on
earth!)... but I am also I branch in the Vine that is the Lord Jesus... and
it is through His life that I grow- through His life that I begin to develop
good fruit- through his life that the Father comes and prunes at me- and
through His life that I can start to actually bear good fruit.

Blessings and Love,
TT.

"Michael Christ" <jesus_au@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:hnuKa.1360$p8.58022@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Michael Christ wrote:
> > > Matthew 7:18
> > > A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit,
> > >
> > > Is sinning evil fruit?
>
> TT wrote:
> > Excellent point Mike (I mean it... really!)...
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Michael Christ wrote:
> > I guess the question then is, are we a good tree of our own volition- or
> do
> > we need the grace of God and the cleansing of the Blood of Jesus Christ
in
> > order to be 'good'- thereby bearing good fruit more and more as the
grace
> of
> > God works it's way through our lives?
>
> No guessing TT.
>
> A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
>
> The question is, are you a good tree? That is, a tree without evil fruit?
>
> Or are you a corrupt tree that brings forth corrupt fruit/sin?
>
> You can't be both.
>
>
> TT wrote:
> > It's a great point for discussion people!
> > Thanks Mike. :)
>
> Your most welcome.
>
> Anything to wake you up...well, try to anyway.
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.
>
> In them is no darkness at all.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>



Michael Christ
2003-06-26 06:08:57 EST
Well, I asked for it, and I got it; a 'process-striving-delusionist'.

Your post is a veritable cascade of contradiction, error in spirit and tomb
echo.

Read and learn of yourself...and wake up, for that is the reason I post.

The Teacher wrote:
> Yes, sin is sin- therefore it is evil fruit.
> But that follows that there may be sin in my life as I am evil apart from
> the Lord. So in response to your question- no I am not a good tree, as of
> my own strength I can only bear bad (evil) fruit.
>
> Here is my joy though- Christ in me is the hope of glory, and not me in
> me.

How is Jesus 'Lord' in a bad tree? Is His seed corrupt??

Where you are is being _called_ for Him to be 'in you'. And I hope for you,
as I do with all I speak to, with a fervency. However, that cannot
compromise
the truth; He is not one with a harlot, TT, or 'not good' trees.

TT wrote:
> So through the power of the Lord's authority I may be made more and more
> like Him- the perfect sinless Son of God... and less and less like myself-
> the sinner.

You're just chanting.

TT wrote:
> That being said- I've not said we do not need to pursue holiness (and
> whole-i-ness too)... we do and we should.

And just how do you do and propose to do that, TT?


TT wrote:
> But this can only come out of
> relationship with God. There is no other means by which man can be saved-
so
> good works must, must, must be an overflow of salvation and not the reason
> for it.

Very soap-boxy but what are you saying you do?


TT wrote:
> And in closing (for the now anyway)- I may be a tree that bears bad fruit
> (because I am a sinner in need of salvtion, like every man and woman on
> earth!)... but I am also I branch in the Vine that is the Lord Jesus...

You don't know what you are saying!!!

The Vine is holy, therefore so is the branch. He, the Vine/branch, is not
a bearer of bad fruit!!!

Surely anyone can see that, even if they hate my guts or don't completely
comprehend the magnitude of it.

You are deluded to think that you are a branch of Christ and with the same
breath declare you bear bad fruit!!!

And you people have the contempt to criticise me??!! Are you completely
inert???
.
TT wrote:
>and
> it is through His life that I grow- through His life that I begin to
develop
> good fruit- through his life that the Father comes and prunes at me- and
> through His life that I can start to actually bear good fruit.

What?? The Father comes and prunes a BAD
TREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here, read your Bible, instead of spouting religious chant in the hope of
trying to reassure yourself...

Matthew 7:15-19 (KJV):
Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree
bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A
good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn
down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Do you see a 'good-bad' tree??

Do you see the Father pruning (quote you)...'a tree that bears bad
fruit'. Do you know the difference between pruning and hewn down??

You are the most deluded person I have spoken to for a while. You call
yourself, 'The Teacher'; you have got to be kidding. You have a malformed
religion and a completely distorted theology.

How is it you believe that light and dark dwell in the same place?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






LibMind
2003-07-02 15:48:19 EST
"Michael Christ" <jesus_au@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<FS7La.2399$p8.106033@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> "LibMind" <LibMind001@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:7dfbf389.0306271901.55352101@posting.google.com...
> > "Michael Christ" <jesus_au@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:<1rzKa.1507$p8.60616@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > Metaphor is a great thing. It facilitates imagination, allowing it to
> > comprehend difficult concepts. But do not take any metaphor too far,
> > pulling it out of its context. Then the tool of better understanding
> > (metaphor) becomes a self-delusion that perverts understanding. For
> > example: the metaphor of good as light and evil as darkness. Light is
> > a good metaphor for "good" because it represents enlightenment leading
> > to wisdom, warmth and guidance as well. Darkness of course blinds and
> > is cold. Most importantly light and darkness are contradictions like
> > good and evil. But darkness is merely an absence of light. The same
> > cannot be said true for evil within the traditional Christian canon.
> > Even if all evil is a corruption it is still a preseence in its own
> > right and not merely an absence of this or that virtue. The Adversary
> > is a being or beings and a force of its own. So here, the value of the
> > particular metaphor ends. Be wary too of pushing Christ's metaphor of
> > the tree bearing fruit too far -- beyond its intended parameters.
> >
> > Timoleon
>
> So do you think you can translate that 'trying-to-be-a-dominion' genius
> thinking of yours to a practical example, bright boy?

I really have no idea what you are asking for. I thought I gave a
pretty good general example of what I was trying to communicate in the
preceeding paragraph. Would you care to clarify your question?

Timoleon

Michael Christ
2003-07-02 16:12:26 EST
Timoleon wrote:
> > > Metaphor is a great thing. It facilitates imagination, allowing it to
> > > comprehend difficult concepts. But do not take any metaphor too far,
> > > pulling it out of its context. Then the tool of better understanding
> > > (metaphor) becomes a self-delusion that perverts understanding. For
> > > example: the metaphor of good as light and evil as darkness. Light is
> > > a good metaphor for "good" because it represents enlightenment leading
> > > to wisdom, warmth and guidance as well. Darkness of course blinds and
> > > is cold. Most importantly light and darkness are contradictions like
> > > good and evil. But darkness is merely an absence of light. The same
> > > cannot be said true for evil within the traditional Christian canon.
> > > Even if all evil is a corruption it is still a preseence in its own
> > > right and not merely an absence of this or that virtue. The Adversary
> > > is a being or beings and a force of its own. So here, the value of the
> > > particular metaphor ends. Be wary too of pushing Christ's metaphor of
> > > the tree bearing fruit too far -- beyond its intended parameters.
> > >
> > > Timoleon

Michael Christ wrote:
> > So do you think you can translate that 'trying-to-be-a-dominion' genius
> > thinking of yours to a practical example, bright boy?

Timoleon wrote:
> I really have no idea what you are asking for. I thought I gave a
> pretty good general example of what I was trying to communicate in the
> preceeding paragraph. Would you care to clarify your question?

Sure.

What metaphor was pulled out of context? And if you can tell me that, how?

Where is the delusion and perverted understanding?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




LibMind
2003-07-02 23:20:08 EST
"Michael Christ" <jesus_au@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<KQGMa.1485$oN.61530@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> Timoleon wrote:
> > > > Metaphor is a great thing. It facilitates imagination, allowing it to
> > > > comprehend difficult concepts. But do not take any metaphor too far,
> > > > pulling it out of its context. Then the tool of better understanding
> > > > (metaphor) becomes a self-delusion that perverts understanding. For
> > > > example: the metaphor of good as light and evil as darkness. Light is
> > > > a good metaphor for "good" because it represents enlightenment leading
> > > > to wisdom, warmth and guidance as well. Darkness of course blinds and
> > > > is cold. Most importantly light and darkness are contradictions like
> > > > good and evil. But darkness is merely an absence of light. The same
> > > > cannot be said true for evil within the traditional Christian canon.
> > > > Even if all evil is a corruption it is still a preseence in its own
> > > > right and not merely an absence of this or that virtue. The Adversary
> > > > is a being or beings and a force of its own. So here, the value of the
> > > > particular metaphor ends. Be wary too of pushing Christ's metaphor of
> > > > the tree bearing fruit too far -- beyond its intended parameters.
> > > >
> > > > Timoleon
>
> Michael Christ wrote:
> > > So do you think you can translate that 'trying-to-be-a-dominion' genius
> > > thinking of yours to a practical example, bright boy?
>
> Timoleon wrote:
> > I really have no idea what you are asking for. I thought I gave a
> > pretty good general example of what I was trying to communicate in the
> > preceeding paragraph. Would you care to clarify your question?
>
> Sure.
>
> What metaphor was pulled out of context? And if you can tell me that, how?
>
> Where is the delusion and perverted understanding?

Oh, I see. It was inspired by the post by "UponThisRock" that said:

"Is there such a thing as darkness, or just "absence of light?"

Darkness does not exist....sinning is a fruitless endeavour. bMy
bible says
a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit....Christians are not corrupt.
Not
the dedicated ones."

He/she was pushing the metaphor too far, IMO. However, my post was
still more a general remonstrance. Take it or leave it as you will.

Timoleon

Michael Christ
2003-07-03 01:14:42 EST

"LibMind" <LibMind001@cs.com> wrote in message
news:7dfbf389.0307021920.d931b2a@posting.google.com...
> "Michael Christ" <jesus_au@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<KQGMa.1485$oN.61530@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > Timoleon wrote:
> > > > > Metaphor is a great thing. It facilitates imagination, allowing it
to
> > > > > comprehend difficult concepts. But do not take any metaphor too
far,
> > > > > pulling it out of its context. Then the tool of better
understanding
> > > > > (metaphor) becomes a self-delusion that perverts understanding.
For
> > > > > example: the metaphor of good as light and evil as darkness. Light
is
> > > > > a good metaphor for "good" because it represents enlightenment
leading
> > > > > to wisdom, warmth and guidance as well. Darkness of course blinds
and
> > > > > is cold. Most importantly light and darkness are contradictions
like
> > > > > good and evil. But darkness is merely an absence of light. The
same
> > > > > cannot be said true for evil within the traditional Christian
canon.
> > > > > Even if all evil is a corruption it is still a preseence in its
own
> > > > > right and not merely an absence of this or that virtue. The
Adversary
> > > > > is a being or beings and a force of its own. So here, the value of
the
> > > > > particular metaphor ends. Be wary too of pushing Christ's metaphor
of
> > > > > the tree bearing fruit too far -- beyond its intended parameters.
> > > > >
> > > > > Timoleon
> >
> > Michael Christ wrote:
> > > > So do you think you can translate that 'trying-to-be-a-dominion'
genius
> > > > thinking of yours to a practical example, bright boy?
> >
> > Timoleon wrote:
> > > I really have no idea what you are asking for. I thought I gave a
> > > pretty good general example of what I was trying to communicate in the
> > > preceeding paragraph. Would you care to clarify your question?
> >


Michael Christ wrote:
> > Sure.
> >
> > What metaphor was pulled out of context? And if you can tell me that,
how?
> >
> > Where is the delusion and perverted understanding?
>

Libmind wrote:
> Oh, I see. It was inspired by the post by "UponThisRock" that said:
>
> "Is there such a thing as darkness, or just "absence of light?"
>
> Darkness does not exist....sinning is a fruitless endeavour. bMy
> bible says
> a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit....Christians are not corrupt.
> Not
> the dedicated ones."

> He/she was pushing the metaphor too far, IMO. However, my post was
> still more a general remonstrance. Take it or leave it as you will.

> Timoleon

Any sin is corruption.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.

In them is no darkness at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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