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Vera Six
2004-02-17 20:44:40 EST
Might someone please tell

Rowland Croucher

to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
website in the internet?

The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.

Vera Six







+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 20:52:46 EST
Vera Six wrote:
> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>

Things Vera has done:

She posed as another person, "Henrietta Schlaumayer" and attempted to
gain personal information about a resident of Austrailia..


From: Schlaumayer@lycos.com (Heini Schlaumayer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Need your help
Date: 13 Dec 2003 11:18:57 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
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19:18:58 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 19:18:58 +0000 (UTC)


Hello group!

I need your help. I am here in Europe, and I have met a very nice
couple in my holidays this year. I would like to write a Christmas
Card to them to invite them to come in their next holidays, but
unfortunately I have lost their address. All I know is that they live
in Australia, Maitland. Their names are Mark and Bev Tindall,
Maitland, Australia.

Whoever can tell me their address or phone number please do so by
private mail.
Maybe they are in you local phone directory? It would be very easy for
you to look this up, but a long way for me here in the other end of
the world. Thank you so much for being such a big help!

Anyway, I wish you a nice Christmas time,
and a happy New Year!

Henrietta Schlaumayer



--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.

+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 20:55:59 EST
Vera Six wrote:

> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>
>
>
>
>
>

Things Vera has done:
Personal attack, slander and lie


http://www.google.com/groups?q=+%22you+are+not+my+brother%22+group:alt.christnet.christianlife+author:vera&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=btfick%24fff%2404%242%40news.t-online.com&rnum=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(careful of word wrap)
----------------------

Vera wrote:

Griz is the best leader this flock could have here.

We have the same rights to comment on anything that concerns
"Christianlife" as others have.

If we regard ourselves to be a group, we are, if it pleases others or not.

Better you leave this forum, OWD.

You are not my Brother.

You will have to apologize to Griz, and to the group you are
trying to tear down. Griz view on Scripture is Spirit lead.

Griz does not misquote Scripture, but you are lacking Jesus,
love, and hope.

> Stop accusing those who disagree with you (or your personal
> interpretation of Scripture) of "being without the Spirit of God?"

You should. You are accusing him - and others.

You are the false prophet.

Vera

----------------------------------------
From: oldwetdog <old*wet*dog@netscapeD0Tnet>
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife
Subject: Re: OWD does not believe in the Trinity of Father, Son and
Holy Spirit
as God
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:33:18 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4
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References: <bvfgm4$pq34k$1@ID-223228.news.uni-berlin.de>
In-Reply-To: <bvfgm4$pq34k$1@ID-223228.news.uni-berlin.de>
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Vera Six wrote:

> When I used the search function for "Jesus" on
> OWD's website, I found the following PROOF:
>
> http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/main/trinity.html
>
> That is what he states there:
>
> "Which shall we take - the scriptures or the trinity?
> It is impossible to believe both.
>
> Get your beliefs from the bible. You will not find the trinity in it.
> The triune god dogma is a product of an age of worldly wisdom
> and spiritual barrenness, as has been so clearly proven, right out
> of the mouths of Trinitarians. It is a product of the apostate church
> of Rome."
>
> Oldwetdog/GlenMcCleary:

Dear, you've spelled my name incorrectly...

>
> Is Jesus God?

Of course Jesus is God.
Jesus in the son of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus is the Son of God, as He called God "My Father" on several
occasions...


OWD
-----------------------------------------

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=100jj3jjgfjoh9b%40corp.supernews.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain


But the stupid mob always listens to those who shout loudest.
That is what Mark Tindall has reckoned with. He has calculated
you fools in, and I have overestimated you. Not all, which makes
me very happy.

Be sure, if David MPP and Mark Tindall do not leave, I will crosspost
what they are and did - which can be proved here - through the whole
usenet.

They will never get rid of their lies. They will follow wherever
they go. They should run as fast as they can. - Good advice.

Vera
-----------------------------------------------------


--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.

+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 20:59:25 EST
Vera Six wrote:

> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>
>
>
>
>
>
Things Vera has done:

Personal attack, baiting to incite flame war, dog piling...
my comments in [square brackets]
This was posted on Jan 10:
----------------------------

"Diana" <<: )))))<> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:40003e1a$0$77820$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...

>> Thank you once again Glenn, You are correct in your observation. Thank
>> you for your kindness
>>
>> Diana
---------
[this 'Glenn' is Glenn of WebTV, now Eric Fisher]
------------
>> "glenn" <dglennt@webtv.net> wrote in message
>> news:27137-3FFFF6D5-178@storefull-2235.public.lawson.webtv.net...
[Glenn is speaking to Griz]

>
>>> > griz,
>>> > re:
>>> > If you've let it go Diana,
>>> > why do we hear about it anew ever couple posts? Why is the first
>>> > thing
>>> > you do when you arrive back on the group after a sabbatical?
>>> > Griz
>>> > ---------------------
>>> > answer:
>>> > i set here this morning and read post after post where folks would
>>> > put
>>> > up something and immediately, and irrelevantly, jeanette, vera, and
>> > a
>>> > couple others jump on bren and diana with hate, name calling, proof
>>> > demanding, etc.
>>> > -------------------------------
>>> > ATTN> EVERYONE> NOTICE>>>
>>> > the pattern is this: bren posts nicely, vera calls her horrid
names,

[Vera posts]

NO!

I called her witch, because she calls herself witch.


>>> > diana says "love you anyway", jeannette demands diana to answer
>>> > questions about griz, diana tries to clear the air and move on,
griz
>>> > says "see you are still talking about it".
>>> > .......................
>>> > there may be slight variations on the theme, but this is it. thats
>>> > all
>>> > they got to offer.
>>> >
>
>>
>>
---------------------------------------

This is another example of the gang bang (dog pile) tactics,
(or 'bait and switch' as one will 'bait' the victem then Griz takes over.)
This one identified by Glenn(webtv) now Eric Fisher
----------------------------------------



--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.

TehGhodTrole
2004-02-17 21:02:33 EST
Vera Six wrote:
> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?

You tell him.

> The usenet is NOT public domain

Yes it is.

> He uses my real name on his website

That's your problem.


--
TehGhodTrole: Trolling, for God's sake.
Your Free Insult: Jesus loves you.

+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 21:03:43 EST
Vera Six wrote:

> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>
>
>
>
>
>
Things Vera has done:
lies about leaving so her partniers can blame another poster for her
departure. For her tearful good-bye she engages in lies, slander and
calls another poster a demon by name (Cerberus)...
She returns in two days to continue the flame wars.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
@ ACC
From:
"Vera Six" <veranospamnononosix@t-online.de>
Date:
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 04:29:29 +0100
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.christianlife

Hello Friends,

now that the frontiers are clear and we know what we have to see
in our neighbours here, I will return back, at least from time to time,
as I have decided to join a moderated group as well. The atmosphere
is not what it used to be, there is some heavy cloud lying on the group,
some foul smell coming over from hell.

Someone should open a window...

I have decided to open up the homepage again soon, with some
changes concerning the participation of the group. I have not yet
finished thinking about it, however.

I think the picture section with the group pics will be changed, as to
a monthly change of people.

All in all the site will get a more personal touch by me, more
testimonies,
Bible related subjects, etc. And it will not only be related to ACC,
but to
many newsgroups there are. I am going to expand, and whoever wants to
join me may do so.

Due to big disappointments here in ACC be aware that I will not take
anybody on my homepage like I did before. I have never denied anybody
there who behaved according to normal human rules of politeness.

Mr. Tindall will have to go on insulting me, such as Mr. Matthieu - I
do not care.
I also do not care about those who think they have to correct me if I
defend myself or others. I have absolute freedom in Jesus Christ. I
will do
what he tells me.

I am glad our built-up Christian fellowship will persevere!

I am also going to have a forum on the website which will be reserved for
a smaller number of people where we cannot be insulted, which hasa become
a rule in ACC.

I am a born again Christian, you will have to reckon with me. I will
stick to
others like me here. The liberals may talk about yoga or whatever, I
will go
on to talk about Jesus, and I will take him very serious - as always.

Sorry for Faye and Diana, but I do not care anymore what you will say
about me.
(BTW: there was another false accusation in Faye's last thread,
because I never
mocked on Michael Christ - they will not find proof anywhere, because
I have
always respected him. If so, Michael, please let me know and I will
apologize.)

Never did so concerning Beth who should get rid of her demonic ways.

Beware of GlennMcCleary/Cerberus/Oldwetdog - he wants devour you.

Never try to change me according to your plans, you will not succeed.
I belong to God only. He has my heart and my life.

I thank Dore who can be a big encourager. ((((Dore))))

I thank ((((Jeannette)))) for fighting for ACC!!!

I thank ((((Frank)))), who is just heavenly!

I thank ((((Griz)))) for being present!

Thank you ((((PureJoy)))) for being a dear Sister in the Lord who can
listen.

I thank ((((Pablo)))) for his wise and amiable words he has directed to me
lately - sorry, there was no time to answer yet.

I thank ((((Fervent)))) who brought me her.

Thank you ((((Faith))) - you always bring the sunshine to ACC!

I thank ((((Brian)))) for being such a good friend!

I thank ((((Tom)))) and ((((Ben)))) for being so patiently explaining
things
to others here.

I thank ((((Misty)))) for his encouragement, too!

I thank ((((Joy)))) for being such a great, great friend and Sister to
me and
others, someone really amiable, a woman in which I can see Jesus.

I thank ((((Deacon)))) for his great help with my Bible studies.

And ((((Cal)))) for being one of my best friends who has to share so much
love for others.

Thank you ((((Wayne)))), my friend, for your friendship.

I thank ((((TBC)))) for all the love he has to offer.

And I thank all the others who help to support building up the
Kingdom of our Saviour. I cannot mention all! Sorry if I did not mention
you!

I hope I will also be able to laugh with you again here in future.
My humour will come back - I have seen harder times than these.

Sisterly Love to all of those who want it,

Shalom y berakah,

Vera


--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.

Qolon
2004-02-17 21:04:45 EST
As a participant on aus.religion.christian, I'm sure Pastor Rowland Croucher
of John Mark Ministries will display sufficent courtesy to do so as he has
done so in the past--otherwise he is a fit and proper person to maintain the
FAQ for only remaining autonomous and non-institutional religious forum
which he greedily grabbed some time ago.

By the way, his lack of Christianity and theological integrity as his
attempts to introduce schisms where none exist, has recently shown up in one
of his sermonettes on a thread called Prophets v's Pharisees which I have
included below.

"Vera Six" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
news:c0ug4h$1c236u$1@ID-223228.news.uni-berlin.de...
Might someone please tell

Rowland Croucher

to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
website in the internet?

The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.

Vera Six

QOLON NOTE:
Your post fails to mention that the Apostle Paul as a Hebrew Torah Scholar,
Greek Philosopher and Christian Apostle was a Pharisee: "Though I might also
have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof
he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day {"And Jesus,
which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my
fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me."
[Colossians 4:11]}, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an
Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal,
persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law,
blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for
Christ." [Philippians 3:4-7]

And that there is no other gospel of the Kingdom of God, than his: "And that
because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy
out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into
bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the
truth of the gospel might continue with you.

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no
matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be
somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw
that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel
of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in
Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me
toward the Gentiles:)

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the
grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands
of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the
circumcision." [Galatians 2:4-9]

There doesn't appear to be any schism between the Gospel of the Circumcision
granted to Peter as ministry to Seventh-day Sabbath observant Jews, and the
Gospel of the uncircumcision granted to the Apostle Paul [as ministry to
Gentiles as heathens.

It seems that Peter must have been the first Jewish and Catholic Pope--or is
the Roman Catholic Church lying again.]

- dolf
- <http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/rudolph.html>

"Rowland Croucher" <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:4031f174$0$28866$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
(Some material for any who might be doing a heresy-hunt on/about Rowland
Croucher :-):

~~~

Being an itinerant ('hit-run') preacher has some advantages. I remember a
Sunday evening service in a conservative church in rural Victoria,
Australia. They had big black Bibles and severe expressions... And they knew
their Bibles, and were proud of that. It was a smallish group, so I decided
to engage them in dialogue:

'Who knows who the Pharisees were?' They did. 'The Pharisees got a pretty
nasty press in the New Testament - particularly Matthew.'

'Now tell me all the *good* things you can think of about the Pharisees.' I
wrote them up on a blackboard:

The Pharisees knew their Bibles; were disciplined in prayer; fasted twice a
week; gave about a third of their income to their church; were moral (very
moral); many had been martyred for their faith; they attended 'church'
regularly; they were evangelical/orthodox; and evangelistic (Jesus said
they'd even cross the ocean - a fearful thing for Jews - to win a convert).

There was a deep silence. I asked 'Peter' sitting at the front: 'What's
wrong?' He pointed to the list and said 'That's us!' 'Is it?" I responded.
'Then you've got a problem: Jesus said these sorts of people are children of
the devil!'

Then we did an inductive exercise on the question: 'What's so wrong with
this list of admirable qualities?' Short answer: it omits what was most
important for Jesus. Whenever in the Gospels he used a prefatory statement
like 'This is the greatest/most important thing of all...' none of the above
were emphasized by him.

What were they? Yes, loving God, loving others, seeking first the kingdom =
obeying God the King ... And, from two Gospel verses the
evangelicals/orthodox have rarely noticed - Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 -
justice/love, mercy, faith.

None of these were on the Pharisees' list. But they're the most important of
all, according to Jesus. Have you noticed items like justice/love don't get
into our creeds or confessions of faith or 'doctrinal statements' either :-)
? (I've written a book about that: Recent Trends Among Evangelicals, if you
want to chase that line).

Back to the Pharisees. Our text (Matthew 12:1-21) is about the problem of
religious 'scrupulosity'... Jesus and his disciples were walking on the
Sabbath through the fields on their way to the synagogue, to church, and
they were hungry. So as the law (Deuteronomy 23:25) allowed, they plucked
some ears of corn to eat. The Pharisees had problems with their 'reaping' on
the sabbath. In fact, the disciples were breaking four of the Pharisees' 39
rules about work on the sabbath: technically they were reaping, winnowing,
threshing, and preparing a meal!

Now the modern picture of the Pharisees almost certainly trivializes - or
demonizes - their piety These were good people with good motives. But they
were 'good people in the worst sense of the word'. More of that later...

Jesus' response is to argue from two precedents (lawyers/legalists are at
home there) - precedents about necessity and service. David and his friends
were hungry, so ate the forbidden bread (though note that when King Uzziah
invaded the sacred area from another motive - pride - he was struck with
leprosy, 2 Chronicles 26:16). Then the priests did a lot of 'work' on the
sabbath - killing and sacrificing animals: so Jesus is saying that if
sabbath-work has to do with the necessities of life and duties of sacred
service, it's O.K. and the *spirit* of the fourth commandment is not
violated. Then Jesus reinforces all this with thr ee arguments: someone
greater than the temple is here; God wants mercy to have priority over
sacrifice; and 'the Son of man is lord of the sabbath'. Or, as the New
Interpreters' Bible Commentary puts it (in a way that would appeal to a
rabbinical way of arguing): 'Since the priests sacrifice according to the
law on the sabbath, sacrifice is greater than the sabbath. But mercy is
greater than sacrifice... so mercy is greater than the sabbath' (Abingdon,
1995, p.278). I like Eugene Peterson's translation of this section in The
Message: 'There is far more at stake than religion. If you had any idea what
this Scripture meant - "I prefer a flexible heart to an inflexible ritual" -
you wouldn't be nitpicking like this.'

Then we have the story of the man with the withered hand. Jerome, the fourth
century bishop-scholar, says some ancient Gospels tell us his name was
Caementarius - a bricklayer - and he said to Jesus: 'Please heal my hand so
that I can earn a living by bricklaying rather than begging'. The Pharisees
challenge him: 'Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?' Now there's a
technicality behind that question, and Jewish scribes used to debate it: is
it lawful for a physician to heal on the sabbath? If the answer's 'yes' how
about someone else, like a prophet? The Shammaite Pharisees did not allow
praying for the sick on the sabbath, but the followers of Hillel allowed it.
Arguments, arguments: 'arguments by extension' to which Jesus answers with
an 'argument by analogy'. If the sabbath laws allow you to help a sheep, why
not a person? (But then, the Essenes wouldn't have rescued a sheep either:
gets complicated!).

So Jesus healed the man. Two notes at this point: # Jesus asked the man to
stretch out his hand, to do as much as he could. Jesus often did that in his
healings. It's the same today: we get help any way we can, and do what we
can. Jesus still heals: sometimes slowly (always slowly in cases of
sexual/emotional abuse), sometimes instantly; sometimes with, sometimes
without, the help of medicine... # I was a co-speaker at a conference with
the Dr Paul Yonggi Cho, pastor of the largest church in the world. He said:
'Every miracle recorded in the New Testament, including the raising of the
dead, has also happened in Korea: we are praying for some miracles not
mentioned in the Bible, nor recorded in Christian history. Like the
replacement of a limb - an arm or a leg - that's not there . We're believing
God for that...!' Do what you like with that one!

We ought to make a little excursus at this point. What's the Sabbath all
about? Two things, basically: faith and rest. Faith that God will supply our
needs if we don't have to work all the time; and rest so that our lives will
be in balance. As you know, I counsel clergy: that's what John Mark
Ministries is about. They're often burned out. But when they are, it's
almost always associated with a failure to take the idea and practice of
sabbath seriously. They don't take a day off: a day off is any day (for
pastors it's often Thursday) when from getting up to going to bed at night
you are not preoccupied with your vocation. Isn't it interesting that in our
leisure-oriented culture, there's also more fatigue? A lot of people are
just plain tired. The five-day work week is a recent innovation, but
'leisure' and 'sabbath-rest' are not the same. Gordon McDonald, in his
excellent book Ordering Your Private World has a chapter 'Rest Beyond
Leisure' which I urge you to read. He writes: 'God was the first
"rester"...Does God need to rest? Of course not. But did God choose to rest?
Yes. Why? Because God subjected creation to a rhythm of rest and work that
he revealed by observing the rhythm himself, as a precedent for everyone
else... [For us] this rest is a time of looking backward. We gaze upon our
work and ask questions like: "What does my work mean? For whom did I do all
this work? How well was my work done? Why did I do all this? What results
did I expect, and what did I receive?" To put it another way, the rest God
instituted was meant first and foremost to cause us to interpret our work,
to press meaning into it, to make sure we know to whom it is properly
dedicated' (Highland, 1985, pp.176-7).

The Pharisees had lost sight of the essence of the sabbath. Alister McGrath
says in his NIV Bible Commentary: 'The Sabbath was instituted to give people
refreshment, rather than to add to their burdens' (H&S, 1995, p.242).
Precisely how you keep the Sabbath today will be governed by love for God
and neighbour, and the kind of work you do. If you're a manual worker, rest.
If you're sedentary, do something physical. Make sure it's 'recreational'
for you - re-creating your body, mind, emotions and spirit.

Jesus healed... and 'the Pharisees conspired... how to destroy him' -
destroy the One through whom we have life. (When you're beaten by goodness,
reason and miracle, you have no other option but rage). And 'great crowds
followed Jesus'. They knew he loved them. He taught them and healed them.
While the Pharisees were into destroying, Jesus was healing. The Scottish
Baptist preacher Matthew Henry makes a good point here: though some are
unkind to us, we must not on that account be unkind to others.

Sometimes I talk to a pastor who is being 'destroyed' by Pharisees. They are
still with us. Why? It's all about what American social scientists call
'mindsets': the mindset of the Pharisee and that of the prophet are
antithetical: they can't get along. Let me explain.

The Pharisee is concerned about law: how to do right. Now there's nothing
wrong with that as it stands. Except for one thing: you can keep the law and
in the process destroy persons. I have a friend who lectured in law in one
of our universities, before he got out of it all in disgust. He said with
some conviction: 'The whole of our Western legal system is sick, unjust. For
one thing: if you're rich, and can afford the cleverest advocacy, you have a
pretty good chance of not going to gaol; but not if you're poor.' There's
something wrong with a system supposed to preserve 'fairness' when
double-standards operate...

There's a tension between law and love. Law is to love as the railway tracks
are to the train: the tracks give direction, but all the propulsive power is
in the train. Tracks on their own may point somewhere, but they're cold,
lifeless things. But love without law is like a train without tracks: plenty
of noise and even movement but lacking direction. Both law and love
ultimately come from God. We need God's laws to know how to set proper
boundaries and behave appropriately: without good laws we humans will
destroy one another. Prophets, in the biblical sense, try to tie law and
love into each other. The O.T. prophets were always encouraging the people
of God to keep the law of God. But the greatest commandment is love: love of
God and of others.

The recent Australian Uniting Church Interim Report on Sexuality looks at
these two issues. It answers one of them very well and the other poorly. The
question: 'How can homosexuals (etc.) know they're loved by us?' is
addressed with deep compassion. Marginalized people ought to feel they're
accepted in our churches. But they don't, generally, so we're more like the
Pharisees than Jesus in that respect. (I once discussed the issue of the
legalization of brothels with a couple of women from the Prostitutes'
Collective on ABC TV. In the middle of it, one of them turned to me and
said, 'You Christians hate us, don't you?' How would you have responded?)

But the other question: 'What is God's will in God's word-in- Scripture
about all this?' is answered poorly in the UC report. Not just poorly, but
heretically, I believe. It gives us permission to be revisionist when it
comes to the clear mandates of Scripture, and that's not on, for a follower
of Jesus. He came not to set aside God's law, but to fulfil it, by embodying
the great law of love in himself.

The last section of our Gospel reading takes all this further: Jesus the
prophet was fulfilling the Scriptures. As God's chosen servant whom God
loves and in whom God delights, Jesus was a meek Messiah, not a warlike one.
And he 'proclaims justice' (v.18), indeed 'brings justice to victory'
(v.19). Now why is justice so big for prophets - and for Jesus (but not for
Pharisees)? Hang in there. Fasten your seat-belts. There's some turbulence
coming as we close.

First a word to the prophets in this congregation. 'Prophets'? 'Here?' Sure.
Well, who are they, and why don't they - or the church - know who they are?
Why don't we recognize and commission them? Why don't we hear them speak a
special revelation of God to us? Ah, there are several answers to that.
Mainly, of course, prophets are somewhat unpredictable. I'm studying the
second half of Jeremiah at the moment to write some Scripture Union notes:
here's a guy who tells the king and the army to surrender to the enemy,
otherwise they'll be wiped out and/or carted off into captivity. Not the
sort of message to stiffen the resistance of your armed forces! So they
tossed him into a septic tank. Prophets disturb the comfortable; pastors
comfort the disturbed. But we don't want to be disturbed. And so the church
organizes its life - its doctrines (like 'prophecy isn't needed anymore,
we've got the Bible, and preachers') and its structures (by-laws and
committees to cover everything) to exclude this more spontaneous 'word from
the Lord.' And prophets tend to major on social justice which isn't nice for
middle-class people - more about that in a moment.

But you can't get away from the high priority the early church and the
Hebrew people put on prophecy.

What is this gift? 'The gift of prophecy is the special ability that God
gives to certain members of the Body of Christ to receive and communicate an
immediate message from God to his people through a divinely-anointed
utterance' (Peter Wagner, Your Spiritual Gifts Can Help Your Church Grow,
Regal, 1979, p.228). Prophecy isn't just predicting the future, though it
can include prediction. Prophets aren't always right: so they ought to be in
submission to the leadership of the church (I ran these ideas by our senior
pastor during the week). Prophets aren't adding a 67th book to the Bible.
The canon of Scripture is closed: the prophet is simply bringing a
biblically-relevant message from God to us today, for our situation. Are
prophets sort of carried along by the Spirit? In a sense, yes. Michael Green
writes: 'The Spirit takes over and addresses the hearers directly through
[the prophet]. That is the essence of prophecy' (I Believe in the Holy
Spirit, Eerdmans, 1975, p.172). Do prophets tend to be political activists?
Often yes - as in the Bible. And today, therefore, such people are unlikely
to be pastors of churches - if a pastor has a prophetic gift they'd better
have also an independent income! 'Since their message is frequently
unpopular, they would feel restrained if they were too closely tied to an
institution. And many church institutions feel uncomfortable with such
prophets around too much... they tend to shun church bureaucracies and
prefer to be outside critics' (Wagner, p.230). Now there are varying points
of view - between and among Pentecostals and Evangelicals about the ministry
of prophets, and this is as much as I want to say about it all here. Except
for this: if God gives you a special message for your church, write it down,
and give it to the leadership: and hold the leadership accountable about
praying over it, and then leave the decision about whatever happens with it
to them.

Let us go back to those two Gospel texts evangelicals (like me) have ignored
for 500 years: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42. Jesus is inveighing against the
Pharisees, and saying that despite their religiosity they've missed the
point - which is justice/love, mercy and faith. Justice comes first (as with
the prophet's message Jesus is quoting: Micah 6:8). Why? Simple: justice is
all about the right use of power; it's about fairness; it's about doing
right - particularly for the poor and oppressed. Social justice is all about
(it's *only* about) treating others as being made in God's image; human
beings with respect and dignity and infinite worth. Justice is about the
most important characteristic of human beings - their Godlikeness.
Homosexuals, for example, aren't just individuals who parade their gayness
in Mardi Gras festivals. They're made in the image of God. Hitler was made
in the image of God; so was Stalin; so is Pol Pot and Idi Amin and Saddam
Hussein... And so are the people in church next to you this morning. CSLewis
says somewhere (The Weight of Glory?) that if we realized who the others
really were with whom we were worshipping, we'd be tempted to fall down and
worship *them*!

There's probably something of the Pharisee in all of us. We take two good
gifts from God - law and truth - and create all sorts of legalisms and
dogmatisms to save us the trouble of loving people we don't like. What is
your spiritual 'achilles' heel'? How does the devil get to you? One of our
'19 questions' (see our home page) for retreatants asks: 'for what
non-altruistic motives are you in ministry?'

Have you noticed that in the ministry of Jesus, the message of repentance
was mainly aimed at religious people, church-folk, like us? When we elevate
law over love; rules and precedents and structures above persons; when
social justice is not at the top of our agenda; then we've got some
repenting to do. Pharisees are people who know the Bible and miss the point.
Lord help us!

(P.S. The statement about 'trivializing the Pharisees' refers to several
problems biblical scholars have about the Pharisees in the NT in general and
Matthew in particular. See, eg. the excellent article on the subject in The
Anchor Bible Dictionary, Doubleday, 1992)


--

Shalom!

Rowland Croucher

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/

12,000+ articles








Qolon
2004-02-17 21:08:15 EST
Oops the IS should read ISN'T

As a participant on aus.religion.christian, I'm sure Pastor Rowland Croucher
of John Mark Ministries will display sufficent courtesy to do so as he has
done so in the past--otherwise he ISN'T a fit and proper person to maintain
the FAQ [as the] only remaining autonomous and non-institutional religious
forum
which he greedily grabbed some time ago.

By the way, his lack of Christianity and theological integrity as his
attempts to introduce schisms where none exist, has recently shown up in one
of his sermonettes on a thread called Prophets v's Pharisees which I have
included below.

"Vera Six" <verasix@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
news:c0ug4h$1c236u$1@ID-223228.news.uni-berlin.de...
Might someone please tell

Rowland Croucher

to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
website in the internet?

The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.

Vera Six

QOLON NOTE:
Your post fails to mention that the Apostle Paul as a Hebrew Torah Scholar,
Greek Philosopher and Christian Apostle was a Pharisee: "Though I might also
have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof
he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day {"And Jesus,
which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my
fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me."
[Colossians 4:11]}, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an
Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal,
persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law,
blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for
Christ." [Philippians 3:4-7]

And that there is no other gospel of the Kingdom of God, than his: "And that
because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy
out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into
bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the
truth of the gospel might continue with you.

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no
matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be
somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw
that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel
of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in
Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me
toward the Gentiles:)

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the
grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands
of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the
circumcision." [Galatians 2:4-9]

There doesn't appear to be any schism between the Gospel of the Circumcision
granted to Peter as ministry to Seventh-day Sabbath observant Jews, and the
Gospel of the uncircumcision granted to the Apostle Paul [as ministry to
Gentiles as heathens.

It seems that Peter must have been the first Jewish and Catholic Pope--or is
the Roman Catholic Church lying again.]

- dolf
- <http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/rudolph.html>

"Rowland Croucher" <rccroucher@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:4031f174$0$28866$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
(Some material for any who might be doing a heresy-hunt on/about Rowland
Croucher :-):

~~~

Being an itinerant ('hit-run') preacher has some advantages. I remember a
Sunday evening service in a conservative church in rural Victoria,
Australia. They had big black Bibles and severe expressions... And they knew
their Bibles, and were proud of that. It was a smallish group, so I decided
to engage them in dialogue:

'Who knows who the Pharisees were?' They did. 'The Pharisees got a pretty
nasty press in the New Testament - particularly Matthew.'

'Now tell me all the *good* things you can think of about the Pharisees.' I
wrote them up on a blackboard:

The Pharisees knew their Bibles; were disciplined in prayer; fasted twice a
week; gave about a third of their income to their church; were moral (very
moral); many had been martyred for their faith; they attended 'church'
regularly; they were evangelical/orthodox; and evangelistic (Jesus said
they'd even cross the ocean - a fearful thing for Jews - to win a convert).

There was a deep silence. I asked 'Peter' sitting at the front: 'What's
wrong?' He pointed to the list and said 'That's us!' 'Is it?" I responded.
'Then you've got a problem: Jesus said these sorts of people are children of
the devil!'

Then we did an inductive exercise on the question: 'What's so wrong with
this list of admirable qualities?' Short answer: it omits what was most
important for Jesus. Whenever in the Gospels he used a prefatory statement
like 'This is the greatest/most important thing of all...' none of the above
were emphasized by him.

What were they? Yes, loving God, loving others, seeking first the kingdom =
obeying God the King ... And, from two Gospel verses the
evangelicals/orthodox have rarely noticed - Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42 -
justice/love, mercy, faith.

None of these were on the Pharisees' list. But they're the most important of
all, according to Jesus. Have you noticed items like justice/love don't get
into our creeds or confessions of faith or 'doctrinal statements' either :-)
? (I've written a book about that: Recent Trends Among Evangelicals, if you
want to chase that line).

Back to the Pharisees. Our text (Matthew 12:1-21) is about the problem of
religious 'scrupulosity'... Jesus and his disciples were walking on the
Sabbath through the fields on their way to the synagogue, to church, and
they were hungry. So as the law (Deuteronomy 23:25) allowed, they plucked
some ears of corn to eat. The Pharisees had problems with their 'reaping' on
the sabbath. In fact, the disciples were breaking four of the Pharisees' 39
rules about work on the sabbath: technically they were reaping, winnowing,
threshing, and preparing a meal!

Now the modern picture of the Pharisees almost certainly trivializes - or
demonizes - their piety These were good people with good motives. But they
were 'good people in the worst sense of the word'. More of that later...

Jesus' response is to argue from two precedents (lawyers/legalists are at
home there) - precedents about necessity and service. David and his friends
were hungry, so ate the forbidden bread (though note that when King Uzziah
invaded the sacred area from another motive - pride - he was struck with
leprosy, 2 Chronicles 26:16). Then the priests did a lot of 'work' on the
sabbath - killing and sacrificing animals: so Jesus is saying that if
sabbath-work has to do with the necessities of life and duties of sacred
service, it's O.K. and the *spirit* of the fourth commandment is not
violated. Then Jesus reinforces all this with thr ee arguments: someone
greater than the temple is here; God wants mercy to have priority over
sacrifice; and 'the Son of man is lord of the sabbath'. Or, as the New
Interpreters' Bible Commentary puts it (in a way that would appeal to a
rabbinical way of arguing): 'Since the priests sacrifice according to the
law on the sabbath, sacrifice is greater than the sabbath. But mercy is
greater than sacrifice... so mercy is greater than the sabbath' (Abingdon,
1995, p.278). I like Eugene Peterson's translation of this section in The
Message: 'There is far more at stake than religion. If you had any idea what
this Scripture meant - "I prefer a flexible heart to an inflexible ritual" -
you wouldn't be nitpicking like this.'

Then we have the story of the man with the withered hand. Jerome, the fourth
century bishop-scholar, says some ancient Gospels tell us his name was
Caementarius - a bricklayer - and he said to Jesus: 'Please heal my hand so
that I can earn a living by bricklaying rather than begging'. The Pharisees
challenge him: 'Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?' Now there's a
technicality behind that question, and Jewish scribes used to debate it: is
it lawful for a physician to heal on the sabbath? If the answer's 'yes' how
about someone else, like a prophet? The Shammaite Pharisees did not allow
praying for the sick on the sabbath, but the followers of Hillel allowed it.
Arguments, arguments: 'arguments by extension' to which Jesus answers with
an 'argument by analogy'. If the sabbath laws allow you to help a sheep, why
not a person? (But then, the Essenes wouldn't have rescued a sheep either:
gets complicated!).

So Jesus healed the man. Two notes at this point: # Jesus asked the man to
stretch out his hand, to do as much as he could. Jesus often did that in his
healings. It's the same today: we get help any way we can, and do what we
can. Jesus still heals: sometimes slowly (always slowly in cases of
sexual/emotional abuse), sometimes instantly; sometimes with, sometimes
without, the help of medicine... # I was a co-speaker at a conference with
the Dr Paul Yonggi Cho, pastor of the largest church in the world. He said:
'Every miracle recorded in the New Testament, including the raising of the
dead, has also happened in Korea: we are praying for some miracles not
mentioned in the Bible, nor recorded in Christian history. Like the
replacement of a limb - an arm or a leg - that's not there . We're believing
God for that...!' Do what you like with that one!

We ought to make a little excursus at this point. What's the Sabbath all
about? Two things, basically: faith and rest. Faith that God will supply our
needs if we don't have to work all the time; and rest so that our lives will
be in balance. As you know, I counsel clergy: that's what John Mark
Ministries is about. They're often burned out. But when they are, it's
almost always associated with a failure to take the idea and practice of
sabbath seriously. They don't take a day off: a day off is any day (for
pastors it's often Thursday) when from getting up to going to bed at night
you are not preoccupied with your vocation. Isn't it interesting that in our
leisure-oriented culture, there's also more fatigue? A lot of people are
just plain tired. The five-day work week is a recent innovation, but
'leisure' and 'sabbath-rest' are not the same. Gordon McDonald, in his
excellent book Ordering Your Private World has a chapter 'Rest Beyond
Leisure' which I urge you to read. He writes: 'God was the first
"rester"...Does God need to rest? Of course not. But did God choose to rest?
Yes. Why? Because God subjected creation to a rhythm of rest and work that
he revealed by observing the rhythm himself, as a precedent for everyone
else... [For us] this rest is a time of looking backward. We gaze upon our
work and ask questions like: "What does my work mean? For whom did I do all
this work? How well was my work done? Why did I do all this? What results
did I expect, and what did I receive?" To put it another way, the rest God
instituted was meant first and foremost to cause us to interpret our work,
to press meaning into it, to make sure we know to whom it is properly
dedicated' (Highland, 1985, pp.176-7).

The Pharisees had lost sight of the essence of the sabbath. Alister McGrath
says in his NIV Bible Commentary: 'The Sabbath was instituted to give people
refreshment, rather than to add to their burdens' (H&S, 1995, p.242).
Precisely how you keep the Sabbath today will be governed by love for God
and neighbour, and the kind of work you do. If you're a manual worker, rest.
If you're sedentary, do something physical. Make sure it's 'recreational'
for you - re-creating your body, mind, emotions and spirit.

Jesus healed... and 'the Pharisees conspired... how to destroy him' -
destroy the One through whom we have life. (When you're beaten by goodness,
reason and miracle, you have no other option but rage). And 'great crowds
followed Jesus'. They knew he loved them. He taught them and healed them.
While the Pharisees were into destroying, Jesus was healing. The Scottish
Baptist preacher Matthew Henry makes a good point here: though some are
unkind to us, we must not on that account be unkind to others.

Sometimes I talk to a pastor who is being 'destroyed' by Pharisees. They are
still with us. Why? It's all about what American social scientists call
'mindsets': the mindset of the Pharisee and that of the prophet are
antithetical: they can't get along. Let me explain.

The Pharisee is concerned about law: how to do right. Now there's nothing
wrong with that as it stands. Except for one thing: you can keep the law and
in the process destroy persons. I have a friend who lectured in law in one
of our universities, before he got out of it all in disgust. He said with
some conviction: 'The whole of our Western legal system is sick, unjust. For
one thing: if you're rich, and can afford the cleverest advocacy, you have a
pretty good chance of not going to gaol; but not if you're poor.' There's
something wrong with a system supposed to preserve 'fairness' when
double-standards operate...

There's a tension between law and love. Law is to love as the railway tracks
are to the train: the tracks give direction, but all the propulsive power is
in the train. Tracks on their own may point somewhere, but they're cold,
lifeless things. But love without law is like a train without tracks: plenty
of noise and even movement but lacking direction. Both law and love
ultimately come from God. We need God's laws to know how to set proper
boundaries and behave appropriately: without good laws we humans will
destroy one another. Prophets, in the biblical sense, try to tie law and
love into each other. The O.T. prophets were always encouraging the people
of God to keep the law of God. But the greatest commandment is love: love of
God and of others.

The recent Australian Uniting Church Interim Report on Sexuality looks at
these two issues. It answers one of them very well and the other poorly. The
question: 'How can homosexuals (etc.) know they're loved by us?' is
addressed with deep compassion. Marginalized people ought to feel they're
accepted in our churches. But they don't, generally, so we're more like the
Pharisees than Jesus in that respect. (I once discussed the issue of the
legalization of brothels with a couple of women from the Prostitutes'
Collective on ABC TV. In the middle of it, one of them turned to me and
said, 'You Christians hate us, don't you?' How would you have responded?)

But the other question: 'What is God's will in God's word-in- Scripture
about all this?' is answered poorly in the UC report. Not just poorly, but
heretically, I believe. It gives us permission to be revisionist when it
comes to the clear mandates of Scripture, and that's not on, for a follower
of Jesus. He came not to set aside God's law, but to fulfil it, by embodying
the great law of love in himself.

The last section of our Gospel reading takes all this further: Jesus the
prophet was fulfilling the Scriptures. As God's chosen servant whom God
loves and in whom God delights, Jesus was a meek Messiah, not a warlike one.
And he 'proclaims justice' (v.18), indeed 'brings justice to victory'
(v.19). Now why is justice so big for prophets - and for Jesus (but not for
Pharisees)? Hang in there. Fasten your seat-belts. There's some turbulence
coming as we close.

First a word to the prophets in this congregation. 'Prophets'? 'Here?' Sure.
Well, who are they, and why don't they - or the church - know who they are?
Why don't we recognize and commission them? Why don't we hear them speak a
special revelation of God to us? Ah, there are several answers to that.
Mainly, of course, prophets are somewhat unpredictable. I'm studying the
second half of Jeremiah at the moment to write some Scripture Union notes:
here's a guy who tells the king and the army to surrender to the enemy,
otherwise they'll be wiped out and/or carted off into captivity. Not the
sort of message to stiffen the resistance of your armed forces! So they
tossed him into a septic tank. Prophets disturb the comfortable; pastors
comfort the disturbed. But we don't want to be disturbed. And so the church
organizes its life - its doctrines (like 'prophecy isn't needed anymore,
we've got the Bible, and preachers') and its structures (by-laws and
committees to cover everything) to exclude this more spontaneous 'word from
the Lord.' And prophets tend to major on social justice which isn't nice for
middle-class people - more about that in a moment.

But you can't get away from the high priority the early church and the
Hebrew people put on prophecy.

What is this gift? 'The gift of prophecy is the special ability that God
gives to certain members of the Body of Christ to receive and communicate an
immediate message from God to his people through a divinely-anointed
utterance' (Peter Wagner, Your Spiritual Gifts Can Help Your Church Grow,
Regal, 1979, p.228). Prophecy isn't just predicting the future, though it
can include prediction. Prophets aren't always right: so they ought to be in
submission to the leadership of the church (I ran these ideas by our senior
pastor during the week). Prophets aren't adding a 67th book to the Bible.
The canon of Scripture is closed: the prophet is simply bringing a
biblically-relevant message from God to us today, for our situation. Are
prophets sort of carried along by the Spirit? In a sense, yes. Michael Green
writes: 'The Spirit takes over and addresses the hearers directly through
[the prophet]. That is the essence of prophecy' (I Believe in the Holy
Spirit, Eerdmans, 1975, p.172). Do prophets tend to be political activists?
Often yes - as in the Bible. And today, therefore, such people are unlikely
to be pastors of churches - if a pastor has a prophetic gift they'd better
have also an independent income! 'Since their message is frequently
unpopular, they would feel restrained if they were too closely tied to an
institution. And many church institutions feel uncomfortable with such
prophets around too much... they tend to shun church bureaucracies and
prefer to be outside critics' (Wagner, p.230). Now there are varying points
of view - between and among Pentecostals and Evangelicals about the ministry
of prophets, and this is as much as I want to say about it all here. Except
for this: if God gives you a special message for your church, write it down,
and give it to the leadership: and hold the leadership accountable about
praying over it, and then leave the decision about whatever happens with it
to them.

Let us go back to those two Gospel texts evangelicals (like me) have ignored
for 500 years: Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42. Jesus is inveighing against the
Pharisees, and saying that despite their religiosity they've missed the
point - which is justice/love, mercy and faith. Justice comes first (as with
the prophet's message Jesus is quoting: Micah 6:8). Why? Simple: justice is
all about the right use of power; it's about fairness; it's about doing
right - particularly for the poor and oppressed. Social justice is all about
(it's *only* about) treating others as being made in God's image; human
beings with respect and dignity and infinite worth. Justice is about the
most important characteristic of human beings - their Godlikeness.
Homosexuals, for example, aren't just individuals who parade their gayness
in Mardi Gras festivals. They're made in the image of God. Hitler was made
in the image of God; so was Stalin; so is Pol Pot and Idi Amin and Saddam
Hussein... And so are the people in church next to you this morning. CSLewis
says somewhere (The Weight of Glory?) that if we realized who the others
really were with whom we were worshipping, we'd be tempted to fall down and
worship *them*!

There's probably something of the Pharisee in all of us. We take two good
gifts from God - law and truth - and create all sorts of legalisms and
dogmatisms to save us the trouble of loving people we don't like. What is
your spiritual 'achilles' heel'? How does the devil get to you? One of our
'19 questions' (see our home page) for retreatants asks: 'for what
non-altruistic motives are you in ministry?'

Have you noticed that in the ministry of Jesus, the message of repentance
was mainly aimed at religious people, church-folk, like us? When we elevate
law over love; rules and precedents and structures above persons; when
social justice is not at the top of our agenda; then we've got some
repenting to do. Pharisees are people who know the Bible and miss the point.
Lord help us!

(P.S. The statement about 'trivializing the Pharisees' refers to several
problems biblical scholars have about the Pharisees in the NT in general and
Matthew in particular. See, eg. the excellent article on the subject in The
Anchor Bible Dictionary, Doubleday, 1992)


--

Shalom!

Rowland Croucher

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/

12,000+ articles









+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 21:09:57 EST
Vera Six wrote:

> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>
>
>
>
>
>
What Vera has done:
Abuse of liberty..
On the 8th, 9th and 10th of January Vera posted over a hundred posts,
many with only tow or three words, some with -delete- and not content,
some slander, some lies, some intended to incite flame war.
the proof in in google for anyone who cares to verify my words.

When someone commented that "Vera is just angery, give her a few days
to work it out,"

Vera replied:

-----------------------

Subject:no anger, just liberty
From:"Vera Six" <veranospamnononosix@t-online.de>
Date:Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:20:18 +0100
Newsgroups:alt.christnet.christianlife

Nononono,

I do not act in anger - do not misinterpret me. You just want
to interpret me like that, because you think you have made
me angry enough...

But you are far from the truth with that. I am very seldom angry,
and hate is really something that I have forgotten, many years
ago, before I met Jesus.

Please do not project on me what you would do in my place.

All I do is still call sin a sin, Satan Satan, witches witches,
criminals criminals and psychopaths psychopaths. That has nothing
to do with anger. Those are mere facts and warnings.

That has to do with truth - if you know what I mean. Maybe you
see what I mean... Maybe you see what you have lost here:
Truth.

Turn back if you still can, and do not listen to liars. Are you really
so stupid that you cannot see who the liar is? Do you really accept
Mark Tindall's way towards Griz and others, me inclusively, as to
be acceptable? If you really do, I think you are not worth a Dime.

Now that you are all free I ask you to tell me what I have done to
you, that I can apologize. What? But please, do not come with lies
from Beth... Abused all the time, but sitting on the pic in a mini skirt
on a bed... And you believe her? Maybe she was abused by fax, too?
SCNR

If you do not want to have a leader: Nobody asked you to accept
Griz as such. But if you do not accept rules most in a group have
agreed upon, you should not expect this of me, either. And what
disturbs you if we are a group that prefer not be without a leader?

Hey, I am really a child of freedom, I always have been. I would
never in my life accept a leader without my free will to do so. There
are Spiritual leaders, if this pleases you or not.

Why are you trying to teach me behaviour? You allowed a very bad
one to Mark Tindall and David M.P.P. all the time. But if te same
things come on you, you start moderating a chat, for example,
and are not be calmed down if a Brothers says the same things to
you in anger because you made a mistake. I have never done anything
to Mark Tindall, never! I have not even communicated with them!
Nevertheless you accept their lies about me?

Shall I repost what they wrote about us?

And you tolerate such a person in your "Christian" forum? The
term has become a bit silly.... There is nothing Christian to be
heard from Mark Tindall, and I proved that some weeks ago.

But the stupid mob always listens to those who shout loudest.
That is what Mark Tindall has reckoned with. He has calculated
you fools in, and I have overestimated you. Not all, which makes
me very happy.

Be sure, if David MPP and Mark Tindall do not leave, I will crosspost
what they are and did - which can be proved here - through the whole
usenet.

They will never get rid of their lies. They will follow wherever
they go. They should run as fast as they can. - Good advice.

Vera

sleep well, liberal forum

liberal, liberal... was there not something else to it... only liberal...
Christ, yes, something with Christ it was, but what was it? Christ,
god, hmmm... what was it, tell me...

---------------------------------------------------------------


--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.

+-<{:->>>- Owd
2004-02-17 21:12:04 EST
Vera Six wrote:

> Might someone please tell
>
> Rowland Croucher
>
> to remove all texts by me and all references to my person from his
> website in the internet?
>
> The usenet is NOT public domain where he could help himself
> as he pleases. He uses my real name on his website, and
> I am accused of really dirty things there which I have never done.
>
> Vera Six
>
>
>
>
>
>

Things Vera has said: #1

Read and decide for your self...
---------------------------------
Vera says, and says, and says...

I (=Vera) summarize this:


Mark and Bev Tindall do not believe Jesus is God.

They do not believe that Jesus was God is the flesh.

They do not believe in Jesus' physical resurrection from the
dead.

They do not believe Jesus died for our sins.

They believe ALL people are sons and daughters of God.

They do not believe the Bible is the truth but reinterpretation.

They do not believe Jesus was perfect.

They do not believe in the virgin birth.

Please, tell me:

Why do they say they are Christians at all?

I will leave them in my killfile where they belong.

BTW: I will post this information to several other groups as well.

==============================

"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tindall@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fd01f1e$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

>> Vera posted 30/11/03 to : alt.religion, alt.religion.christian,
>> alt.religion.christian.baptist, alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,
>> alt.religion.christianity
>>
>> BUT NOT HERE at alt.christnet.christianlife !!!!!!
>>
>> This is what she does BEHIND YOUR BACK!!!!!
>>
>> YOU MAY BE NEXT!!!!
>>
>> **********************
>> plonk
>>
>> This is a kind request.
>>
>> Please plonk this person. Thank you.
>>
>> "David Matthieu P.P."
>>
>> **************************

==============================

"I was fed up with everything, with my life, with the
politics, with the society. So I got into some esoteric
things, and in the end I could really do some magic
here and there. I found out that there had to be more
about life than I had learned at school." (Vera 666)

"I was occupied in doing magic before, that is when YOUR will is done
in the
world." (Vera 666)

"I went through Daeniken, Astrology, Meditation, Esoteric, Magic - then I
started Bible reading and met Him." (Vera 666)



"David Matthieu P.P." <johnrevelation@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bqq83m$1u8i3m$1@ID-188549.news.uni-berlin.de...

>> From: "Vera Six" <verasix@t-online.de>
>> Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife
>> Subject: Re: Is a man who sins...
>> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:17:44 +0200
>> Organization: T-Online
>> Lines: 80
>> Message-ID: <bgelgh$kea$07$1@news.t-online.com>
>> References: <2x_Va.1229$bo1.1079@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1059772754 07 20938 V5YYVvXVSTAnko 030801
>> 21:19:14
>> X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@t-online.de
>> X-ID: Sx-S9sZVZeZfqhlh8eI1aCr15W9SQ+G3ri66Eq5d55WmHH08HVZu0A
>> X-Priority: 3
>> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
>>
>
>>> >I thought once to be perfect, to be godlike. That happened
>>> >to me after some meditations on aura magic many years ago,
>>> >before my time when I gave my life to Jesus. But it did not
>>> >make me happy, but even worse, it sometimes put me into
>>> >a state of fear. Does your kind of spiritualism make you happy?
>>> >I mean, it is quite tyring to keep up the energy level. And it
is even
>>> >dangerous to have bad ideas for others. You see, they might
>>> >come true, and if they do not hit their target, they will hit
>>> >the person who sent them...
>
>>
>>
>>

==============================

Hi TehGhodTrole,

the question who is the leader is very easy to be answered:

Leader is the person who is accepted as leader by others due to
his authority by the Holy Spirit. Others might call themselves
leaders but are not really.

Griz is a good leader because there is somebody above him
who accepts him and who he accepts.

Praise the Lord for that!

Yours in Christ,

Vera

==============================

"glenn" <dglennt@webtv.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:17441-3FD89C0D-55@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net...

>> can anyone explain to me why the crossposting onto other groups? the
>> "xnity is immoral" junk is being sent to another group. i dont know of
>> anyone in the other group who gives a hill of beans about your
>> bickering.
>>


Hi Glenn,

as I have said, I have blocked all the crossposters, all the heretics,
and all the trolls. If I block all the sinners now, there will be nobody
left. Not even Do... No, I will not say it...

Be blessed,

and much love and pudding,

Vera

==============================

> sensible2me:
> Are you being serious?


With the blocking? - Yes. The only chance to survive here...

Love and pudding,

Vera

==============================

Hi Glenn,

are you new to ACC?

If so, welcome!

You are no cross-poster?

Welcome!

You are no troll?

Welcome!

You are no heretic, either?

Welcome!

Yours in Christ,

Vera

==============================

I am serious with Dore, Feather.

I can understand Dore and her situation, and I really feel love for her,
because I can see her motivation. In her opinion she does this all for God
and to save us. She cannot think differently and is attacked for it
anywhere she
goes. I would like to hug her until the knot desolves.

But please, Sister, delete that trash under your posts that insults my
friends
and me. I am not going to be confronted with such a trash all the
time. I would
be very sad if I had to block you for this. I am not Vera 666. Nor is
it true what
he writes about my friends (no, I am not going to repeat that
garbage). Why do
you hurt us by repeating these bad lies? Are DMPP and the Tindalls
more worth
to you than we are? And do you really think you can change one of them by
responding?

Love,

Vera

==============================

"Griz" <griz@delete.cois.on.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:vtph5upvu6bp0d@corp.supernews.com...

>> It is THE Church!


Hallelujah, praise the Lord for that!

Love and pudding,

Vera

==============================

BTW: I do not like it when you are hurt, and when they tell lies
about you. I know they are lies, because I know you, and I know
myself, and they lie about me too.

Love and pudding,

Vera

==============================

KJV - 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

---------------------------------------------------

that is what cross-posting did to this group.

I have blocked all the cross-posters, all the heretics and slanderers,
and then it works. It worked much better, however, if those who are
not blocked would not respond, either. I do not want to read the lies
about my friends here.

Be blessed,

Vera

==============================

"twice-born child" <zephaniah3_18nospam@fuse.net> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:3fee57ac$0$69803$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...

>> "Mark and Bev Tindall"
>> <m_b_tindall@tpg.com.au>
>>
>> "She Sang Neu"
>> <she@sang1.neu>
>>
>> "She Sang Neu"
>> <she@sang2.neu>
>>
>> "Donna Kupp"
>> <dkupp@harborside.com>
>>
>> "David Matthieu P.P."
>> <johnrevelation@yahoo.com>
>>
>>


Agreed.

==============================

I think the list is a very good orientation for newbies and for
people who are not so strong in faith. When I came here to ACC
in spring this year, I found TBC's list to be a very good help.
I could concentrate on better things than to be torn into senseless
debates by people who are anything, but certainly no Christians.
There are some minimum claims for that. Not all who call themselves
Christians are Christians. Very bad if such people want to teach in a
Christian group. It is a duty to warn others. Times were much
better here when TBC had his list.

If some people want to lead people into chaos here, there must be
something done to stop it. The best is to bring some order and lines.
Our God loves order, and he blocklists, too. There is simply no
connection between Him and most others. Too bad. They could
really at least try to get that connection.

I would say TBC is really careful in the choice who to block.

I am happy with the list. All have earned to be listed up there who
are on it, more than tenfold.

I agree to the list. I thank TBC for it.

Yours in Christ,

Vera

==============================


--
oldwetdog
-----
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." Jacques Maritain
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
.
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