Bible Discussion: Facts On Satan

Facts On Satan
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Dr. Jason Gastrich
2004-01-16 03:39:35 EST
Hi everybody,

I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals a
number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.

God bless,
Jason
--

The Awesome, Saving Gospel of God
http://gospel.jcsm.org
Are you saved? Read the gospel and make sure!



Dr Littleboy
2004-01-16 03:45:34 EST

"Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
news:brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals
a
> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>
> God bless,
> Jason
> --
>
> The Awesome, Saving Gospel of God
> http://gospel.jcsm.org
> Are you saved? Read the gospel and make sure!

That would be "Dr" Satan, Would it not?


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Therion Ware
2004-01-16 04:04:24 EST


On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:45:34 -0800 in free.christians, Dr Littleboy
("Dr Littleboy" <allen.strong@comcast.net>) said, directing the reply
to free.christians



>
>"Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
>news:brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com...
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals
>a
>> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
>> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>>
>> God bless,
>> Jason
>> --
>>
>> The Awesome, Saving Gospel of God
>> http://gospel.jcsm.org
>> Are you saved? Read the gospel and make sure!
>
>That would be "Dr" Satan, Would it not?

He's probably got tenure as well.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Routerider
2004-01-16 06:52:42 EST

"Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
news:brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com...
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals
a
> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>
> God bless,
> Jason

Can you elaborate on Satan's limitation, you state that he can only be in
one place at one time and use Job 1:6-7:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves
before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan
answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from
walking up and down in it.


These passages seem to indicate that Satan had the freedom to go where he
pleased...how does this limit him to one place at a time?



Dr. Jason Gastrich
2004-01-16 07:13:39 EST
Routerider wrote:
> "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
> news:brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com...
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It
>> reveals a number of interesting things about Satan, including his
>> origin, his limitations, etc. See
>> http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>>
>> God bless,
>> Jason
>
> Can you elaborate on Satan's limitation, you state that he can only
> be in one place at one time and use Job 1:6-7:
>
> Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present
> themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
> Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan
> answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and
> from walking up and down in it.
>
>
> These passages seem to indicate that Satan had the freedom to go
> where he pleased...how does this limit him to one place at a time?

Hi Routerider,

I don't think it's hard to imagine a being that can go where he pleases and
be in one place at a time. This is what humans can do. Only God is above
and beyond this limitation.

In short, the scriptures reveal that Satan is not omni-present. He is a
being that is in one place at a time.

Jason



386sx
2004-01-16 08:44:52 EST
Routerider writes:

> Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves
> before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
> Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan
> answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from
> walking up and down in it.
>
> These passages seem to indicate that Satan had the freedom to go where he
> pleased...how does this limit him to one place at a time?

Those passages are a fictional tale about a cruel bumbling "LORD" who didn't
even know from whence comest Satan, let alone from whence comest his stupid
and childish "double dare" game he plays with the alleged Evil One (tm).

--
meme-complex \meem kompleks\, n. The freedom to worship god his way.

"You are perfectly welcome to worship God your way, I will worship Him
His way." -- Roberts

R.Schenck
2004-01-16 09:50:59 EST
"Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message news:<brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com>...
> Hi everybody,
>
> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals a
> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>
> God bless,
> Jason

once again you demonstrate that you don't know what facts are. none
of these things on your webpage are facts, they are stories in a book.

Therion Ware
2004-01-16 10:09:53 EST


On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:52:42 -0500 in free.christians, Routerider
("Routerider" <oneznzeroz@NOSPAMyahoo.com>) said, directing the reply
to free.christians



>
>"Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
>news:brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com...
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals
>a
>> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
>> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>>
>> God bless,
>> Jason
>
>Can you elaborate on Satan's limitation, you state that he can only be in
>one place at one time and use Job 1:6-7:
>
>Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves
>before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
>Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan
>answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from
>walking up and down in it.
>
>
>These passages seem to indicate that Satan had the freedom to go where he
>pleased...how does this limit him to one place at a time?

You may be interested in the following essay, which I found years ago.
I think it's rather intelligent and perceptive.

The Devil in Dante
By Auguste Valensin, S.J.

In spite of the title the Divine Comedy - a title Dante himself did
not give his poem - the characters he portrayed were not divine but
human beings. To all intents and purposes his epic is a human comedy,
even though its scene is the other world. That did not prevent Dante
from giving a part to angels in heaven and demons in hell, as befitted
his chosen scenario. What was his conception of these demons, and in
particular, how did he portray Lucifer, the prince of demons?

Dante's ideas on demons follow those supplied by the traditional
Christian interpretation of the Apocalypse. The demons, according to
him, are "intelligences exiled from their celestial home country,"
"outcasts of heaven" who fell from it like falling rain. As soon as
they were created, they had to go through a test to ensure their free
entry into the friendship of God. In the theology lesson Beatrice
gives Dante in Canto 29 of the Paradiso she tells him that the test
only lasted a few seconds. The fall of Lucifer and the other angels
who joined in his revolt was the result of pride. These fallen angels
-"black" angels - are the demons properly so-called.

The guardians of hell are not demons in the sense in which the word is
interchangeable with devil. Dante uses the word devil six times in the
Divine Comedy and each time applies it to fallen angels. The term
demon is more general and less exact. Socrates used it for the kind
spirit that, he thought, used to warn him of evil. In the Middle Ages
they called the pagan gods demons. One of the bad popes was accused of
invoking - when throwing dice - the help of Jupiter, Venus, "and other
demons." In classical mythology the word demon was applied to the
beings halfway between gods and men. In the chansons de geste people
such as Nero and Pilate are included among the demons. In Giacomo da
Verona's De Babilonia civitate infernali Muhammad is a demon.

Dante, who normally applies the word demon to devils, uses it on one
occasion for a damned soul (Inf. 30. l17). Twice he gives it to
guardians of hell, once to Charon and once to Cerberus (ibid. 3. 109
and 6. 32), but this does not mean that we are to regard these
guardians as genuine devils. Besides, if Dante had meant to conceal
devils under the appearance of these mythical characters, he would
not, as he did, have recalled the deeds of their past lives-precisely
such deeds as put them in a different category from fallen angels.

We have even more grounds for thinking this of the assistant
guardians. These are not even legendary figures but animals, monsters,
harpies, and centaurs (ibid. 12 and 13). Admittedly Dante gives us one
rapid vision of the devil in the form of a serpent, but this is a
definite reference to the passage in the Bible about original sin
(Purg. 8. 97ff.).

Before Dante there stretches a whole tradition with an established
idea of what the devils were like and an accepted picture of hell. The
demons-fierce, grotesque executioners -are charged with the torture of
the damned. As the fancy takes them, they boil them in caldrons, roast
them on spits, fry them, or slice them up across and lengthwise. The
hell of Dante's forebears is a torture chamber in which childish
imagination has been let loose, with no rules, no principles, no
scheme behind its choice of details. Coarse popular imagery, this,
designed to terrify but to provoke laughter, too. The two aspects go
together, explained by a sort of rudimentary theology: everything that
degrades the devils is good, so it is right to make them ridiculous.
At the same time they must be frightening, so that Christians may
beware of them. How at the same time mock and fear them, gibe and
tremble? The explanation is that the mocker and the trembler are not
the same person. Fear of the devil is a help for the hesitating-every
man sometimes has within him a fainthearted Christian whom pure love
is not enough to sway. But when a man's soul is united to the power of
God, what has he to fear? For him this ontological mockery of the
demons is a very proper nourishment for what might be termed mystic
hilarity.

This point of view was taken up by Dante - but with modifications. In
the Divine Comedy the proportion of diabolical slapstick is greatly
reduced. It comes only into the scenes of quarrelling devils at
Malebolge (Inf. 21 and 22)-the one episode in which the devils are
protagonists and our interest is permitted to dwell on them; the
poet-theologian grants us a moment's distraction, the virtuoso
introduces a variation, we come on a pencil sketch on the edge of a
deep and austere work of art. Apart from that, the demons do not
especially engage our attention, which Dante wishes to turn
exclusively to the damned.

In hell itself the demons carry out their tasks like anonymous
officials; they are the arm of divine justice. Thus we meet them in
the second chasm of the eighth circle, scourging the panders, who were
condemned to walk around and around it. On this side, on that, along
the hideous stone, I saw horned demons with large scourges, who smote
them fiercely from behind.



Ah! how they made them lift their legs at the first strokes! truly
none waited for the second or the third.
(Inf. 18. 34ff.)

Similarly, in the ninth chasm their job is to split down the middle,
as they go by, those who have divided Christianity.



Even a cask, through loss of middle-piece or cant, yawns not so wide
as one I saw, ripped from the chin down to the part that utters vilest
sound; between his legs the entrails hung; the pluck appeared, and the
wretched sack that makes excrement of what it swallowed.

Whilst I stood all occupied in seeing him, he looked at me, and with
his hands opened his breast saying: "Now see how I dilacerate myself,
see how Mohammed is mangled! Before me Ali weeping goes, cleft in the
face from chin to forelock;

"and all the others, whom thou seest here, were in their lifetime.
sowers of scandal and of schism; and therefore are they thus cleft.

"A devil is here behind, who splits us thus cruelly, reapplying each
of this class to his sword's edge, when we have wandered round the
doleful road; for the wounds heal up ere any goes again before him."
(Inf. 28. 22ff.)



In each case Dante barely indicates the action and is far from taking
the opportunity to wallow in details. The demons have no personality:
they are robot demons, supers who do their job almost without
appearing on the stage.

Also - and here Dante is making a break with the existing literary
tradition-most of the damned are not tormented by demons. Instead of
being given up to the whims of torturers, they undergo a punishment
marked out with precision, corresponding to their crime, and its
execution is usually confined to themselves, or else to animals or
natural forces. Dante gives us no information as to the dispositions,
knowledge, or sufferings of the demons in hell. He may have
deliberately refrained from painting the devils in detail so as not to
take away from his main subject.



As for the demons outside hell, we are told quite a lot about their
character and the part they play. They are endowed with a will that
always seeks evil; they are each other's enemies; they are liars; they
try to catch souls with the bait of false pleasures. They attack the
good everywhere. When a preacher instead of teaching the Gospel tries
to exalt himself or to be funny, it is because the there is a devil
lurking in the peak of his hood. The Divine Comedy gives us three
typical examples of the devil's intervention at the hour of death. The
first anecdote is about Guido di Montefeltro (Inf. 27). This warrior,
whose activities had been foxy rather than leonine, became a monk to
expiate his sins and thus piously would he have ended his life had he
not been led back to his perfidious ways. According to what he is
supposed to have told Dante, Boniface VIII appealed to Guido to help
him confound the Colonnas. At first he refused. Then, on the assurance
that the pope could absolve him in advance from the sin he was about
to commit, he finally gave the successful advice to make but not keep
a certain promise. When he died, Francis of Assisi came to fetch his
soul, but in vain. Guido was easily proved guilty by a black cherub,
on the ground that a man cannot be absolved from a sin he does not
repent and therefore cannot al the same lime will sin and absolution,
"per la contradizzion che nol consente." The devil ended up, to Guido:
"Ah! you never knew I was a logician!"



The second example concerns his son, Buonconte di Montefeltro (Purg.
5). Buonconte was killed al the battle of Campaldino in 1289, and his
body was never found. This was because as he was dying, the sinner was
inspired to call on our Lady. Thai saved him: when the devil came to
lake possession of his soul, an angel snatched ii away from him. The
devil, enraged, cried, "O you from heaven, why ate you doing me out of
my right? Was one small tear enough to rob me of my prey? Very well,
so be ill Al all events I can do what I like with his body"-and using
the strength that belongs to his nature, the devil stirred up a
violent storm and swept Buonconte's unburied body down the Arno. The
third example is outstandingly odd. Given that in a state of grace God
lives supernaturally within us, working in and through us, the idea
easily follows that in a state of sin ii is the devil who lives in us.
The next stage is possession and by going a bit further one teaches
Dante's fabulous notion-why should not the devil continue to use a man
after he is dead? No one would suspect that he was dealing with a
corpse. This was the fate of Branca d'Oria and his father-in-law,
Michel Zanche. "They are here with us in hell," says one of the damned
to Dante. "What's that? What are you saying? Don't be absurd - d'Oria
is still alive, eating, drinking, sleeping, wearing clothes. . . ."
"No, d'Oria's body is animated by a devil, who makes him talk and move
just as if it were his soul" (Inf. 33).



What more striking way could there be of demonstrating what it means
to be given up to the devil by sin? This flight of fancy was not
Dante's own. We find it in a number of earlier authors, just as we
find the theme of angel and devil fighting over a corpse. So far,
then, there is nothing to show that Dante had any original views on
matters diabolical. Up to this point his demonology is a summary, an
outline. Not only has he made no effort to produce anything new about
the psychology of demons, but as if to avoid the rocks on which the
imagination of his predecessors foundered, he seems to have done his
best to get out of describing demons altogether He replaces them,
where he can, by animals and monsters or by mythological characters
who are already fitted out with both history and physiognomy. Only
when Lucifer himself comes on the scene does Dante begin to show
interest in the devil and give us a new conception of his character.



Lucifer is the name of the demon prince. It is-Dante's favourite name
for him, but he also calls him Satan, Beelzebub, and Dis. Dante agrees
with orthodox theology that Lucifer fell from heaven and takes from
the Apocalypse the fact that this fall brought him down to earth. It
was his own idea that there was such a close link between the drama in
Paradise and the present condition of the earth.

Let us imagine this globe fixed at the centre of creation, with its
austral hemisphere (as we will call it here, for convenience' sake)
facing the point of the Empyrean, the throne of God. This hemisphere
used to be the solid one, the other being completely covered in water.
When Lucifer landed on the earth, it was so frightened by the approach
of such a monstrosity that it fled of its own accord under the waters,
leaving an ocean in its place. More land came out on the other
hemisphere, to compensate. In a moment the face of the globe was
changed and the part farthest from God, the boreal hemisphere, became
habitable-as far as Dante was aware, in fact, it was the only
inhabited part of the earth.



Falling headfirst onto our world, Lucifer went in as far as the centre
and there stopped, unable to fall farther. At once a mass of earth
shrank back all around the reprobate and, retreating along the path by
which Lucifer's fall had brought him, formed a vast bulge in the
waters of the austral hemisphere-the mountain of purgatory. This was
Dante's own idea. Up to then purgatory was thought to be somewhere
near hell, in the middle of the earth, or in one of the planets.
Lucifer is suspended in space, equidistant from the four corners of
creation, with the upper half of his body hemmed in by ice and the
lower half surrounded by rocks. His head and torso are in the northern
hemisphere, the rest of his body in the southern hemisphere. So
placed, he has Asia on his right, Africa on his left. Jerusalem, where
the crime was committed, is on his head, and under his feet is
purgatory, the place of expiation. Heaven and earth are linked in
history: the shape of this world is the outcome of the drama on high,
and Satan himself is the maker of his own hell.

As with so many of Dante's fables, we are free to deem this fantasy
childish or magnificent. It depends on our opinion of its author. We
may look on him as an irresponsible image monger, the first to be
taken in by his own myths, or we may see in him a Platonic idealist
for whom material realities are pictures of those that are spiritual
and more truly real: his task being the poetical re-creation of the
Cosmos, he constructs its "objective correlative"-that is to say, an
analogy of intelligibles. Thus he must use the pattern of the stars,
the relationship of numbers and the geographical symmetries as an
iconography both for synthesised truths of another and higher order
and for subtle ideological correspondences.



Lucifer's vast material bulk gives an indication of what his spiritual
size must have been. The perfection of him who was once the greatest
of angels is expressed inside-out by the vacuous hugeness of mere
quantity-it is the inverted reflection of it that we see in his
present delusive immensity. As usual, Dante cleverly fills out his
fantasy with careful detail and gives us the data for working out
Lucifer's dimensions. Three unusually tall men put end to end would
not equal in length even the torso of the giant Nimrod, yet the
average man's arm is nearer Nimrod's in size than the giant's is to
Lucifer's. Those are the data, slightly simplified. To provide
material for calculation is one thing; to calculate is another. Dante
was wise to leave the working out to us-and we should be foolish if we
accepted his invitation to do so without a pinch of salt. The data of
the problem hint vaguely at colossal proportions. Working out the sum
and finding the exact measurements would merely be deceptive. In cases
like this, details are like imitation pillars, painted in
perspective-it is better not to look at them too closely. An
approximate calculation, in fact (it was made by Galileo and later by
others with slightly varying results), gives Lucifer's height as
roughly 1.3 miles - puny compared with what the unaided imagination
suggests.

Lucifer has three heads of different colours, red, off-yellow, and
black. He has six wings, two around each head. We need not go into the
fanciful interpretations that have been put on the meaning of these
heads-they were not the work of Dante; long before his time Satan was
so represented, in sculpture, paintings on glass, and miniatures in
manuscripts. In these images the purpose of the three heads is to make
Satan a symmetrical antagonist to the Trinity. Probably Dante meant
them the same way. One of the faces, opposed to the Person of the
Father, symbolises jealous impotence and is fittingly coloured a
liverish yellow. The second, balancing the Person of the Word,
symbolises ignorance and stupidity, which have in a manner of speaking
become the substance of Satan-this head is black. Finally the third,
being the opposite of the Paraclete, who is love, must suggest Satan's
essential hatred and is therefore red.



All Lucifer's activity is confined to these three heads and their
wings. His wings fan up the wind that 'freezes Cocytus. His jaws munch
unceasingly at the three greatest criminals in the world, Brutus and
Cassius, traitors to the supreme political authority, and Judas,
traitor to God. The rest of his body is condemned to immobility. This
ugly creature is Lucifer, once the most beautiful of all the angels.

The poets go down the body of Lucifer to get to the centre of the
earth and climb up to the surface on the other side. Ii is an odd
picture. Vergil takes Dante on his back and slides down Lucifer's
chest, using the hairs as steps. When he reaches the hips,
readjustment is needed. Before he reached the centre of the earth, he
was going down; now, to get away from it, he must climb up. Still
carrying his burden, Vergil has to make a half turn on his own feet.
He points his head downward, to have it on top and, having come down
Lucifer's torso, proceeds up his legs. The poet on his back is
startled-it feels as if he were going back again (Inf. 34).

An amusing description, which the author of the Divine Comedy, who was
making use of ideas as yet little known, undoubtedly thought the
reader would find both startling and instructive. I think it is worth
pointing out a scientific howler: we are told that when Vergil gets to
the centre, it is a tremendous effort to change his position-he does
so "confatica e con angoscia" (Inf. 34. 78) because it is the place
where all the weight of the world is concentrated. The contrary is
true. One of Newton's theorems proves that the nearer a thing is to
the centre of the earth, the less it weighs. Dante, who was small and
probably weighed about a hundred and forty pounds on the earth's
surface, would at just over a mile from the centre have weighed no
more than five ounces, at one yard a hundred-and-twentieth of an ounce
and at the centre nothing. This could scarcely have been tiring for
Vergil!

Dante's originality does not lie in his portrait of Lucifer's
appearance but in his philosophical conception of his personality. Ii
is here that he begins to make innovations; it is in this that the
figure he created is unique. Milton, Goethe, Byron, Victor Hugo,
Carducci, Vigny, Baudelaire, and nearest to our time, Paul Valéry
imagined the devil as the quintessence of the spirit of evil, a
microcosm of hell, an active Satan, intelligent and mischievous, with
something of his magnificence still clinging to him - something at
times even attractive: a power struggling against a power, ground down
but retaining strength enough to keep from yielding. A figure of this
mould, who defies God even under torture, is indeed to be found in
Dante, but his name is not Lucifer but Capaneo (Inf. 14. 46-61).
Dante's Lucifer is an exhausted creature whose energy is spent, whose
history is over. He is forced to spend eternity as the lowest link in
the chain of living things. He who was once among the most vital of
created spirits has turned into a kind of dull brute. At no point is
he referred to as thinking-he has no inner life, no rebelliousness, no
passions. He just goes on munching and munching and automatically
opening and shutting his wings. All we perceive in him is infinite
misery-an abject misery in which there is nothing touching. This
being, whose likeness to God is as nearly rubbed out as it can be,
does nothing apart from his mechanical movements but keep silence and
weep. His silence is empty like a lonely desert, and the tears that,
if they streamed from two eyes, might have roused compassion, are
productive only of repugnance, since they gush from six eyes at a
time, pour down three chins, and mix with the blood and froth of three
sets of jaws. This is the vanquished of God, more like a machine (a
sort of bellows-cum-mincing-machine) than an intelligent being. If he
is the King of Hell, "Emperor of the Dolorous Realm," he is so only in
the sense that he is its most perfect expression, that is, the lowest
thing in it.

Lucifer's torments might seem relatively gentle in comparison with
those of the other damned souls. This is true in terms of feeling but
not to the eyes of thought. Dante purposely sacrifices the impression
to the idea. When he thinks of the worst of all criminals, the range
of sensible punishment seems to hold no torture parallel to the sin.
He denies Satan a spectacular torment which might have appalled the
imagination, and chooses a punishment whose unequalled horror is
apparent only to the mind: icebergs and rocks, which surround without
touching him, darkness and loneliness, immobility, silence-the point
of the description is its symbolism of a punishment that is
essentially metaphysical. The interpretation is that the enemy of God,
while still existing, is thrust as far away from being as he can be,
held by force, against his nature, on the confines of nothingness.
Pain might draw pity-Lucifer's ontological degradation witnesses far
more effectively to his defeat.

Thus conceived, Lucifer is the antithesis, the antipodes of God. At
one extreme we see supreme immobility, the fruit of plenitude, of the
fact that God is the one Being who lacks nothing and is therefore in
search of nothing. At the other extreme is forced immobility, that of
a being, so to speak, exiled from himself, whose destitution is so
complete that he lacks even the means of turning back into himself. At
one extreme is God, "materially (metaphorically) outside the universe
but spiritually (really) at its hub"; at the other Lucifer,
"materially at the hub of the universe but spiritually (really)
outside it" (Guido Monacorda, Poesia e contemplazione ). At one
extreme God, toward whom in obedience to a sort of spiritual law of
gravity all his true lovers are drawn by the weight of their love (the
more one loves, the nearer one gets to him-it is like falling upward);
at the other extreme Lucifer, toward whom souls laden with
concupiscence are drawn lower and lower.

Dante's Satan has nothing of the Titan about him. He is not even a
Nietzschean figure and we must admit - in defiance of the ideas of the
romantics, which cannot but involve a reckless tolerance of evil -
that this may be for the best. Stripped of the elements of a potential
epic hero, Lucifer is no higher than a bestial thing (the two words
necessarily go together here). Within the spiritual scheme, he is
still alive enough to be repellent and still has just enough being to
demonstrate, like an obscene mutilation, the being he lacks. Less
striking at first sight, less pitiable, less theatrical than the
conceptions of others, Dante's Lucifer is a typical Dantesque
character, evolved by reason and full of theological sense.


--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Dr. Jason Gastrich
2004-01-16 16:36:23 EST
R.Schenck wrote:
> "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org> wrote in message
> news:<brNNb.82576$Vs3.40096@twister.socal.rr.com>...
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It
>> reveals a number of interesting things about Satan, including his
>> origin, his limitations, etc. See
>> http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>>
>> God bless,
>> Jason
>
> once again you demonstrate that you don't know what facts are. none
> of these things on your webpage are facts, they are stories in a book.

Why are you coming into Christian newsgroups and tell us that you don't
believe in the Bible?

Jason



Libertarius
2004-01-16 17:42:39 EST
"Satan" is the Christianized version of the concept of
AHRIMAN originally invented by ZARATHUSTRA.
(See ZOROASTRIANISM).

Your essay is a bunch of LIES!

E.g.
Ezekiel 28:13-19.
The very first verse of this chapter shows it is about the
PRINCE/KING OF TYRE, not "Satan"! Same in verse 11.
And there is NOTHING in Ezekiel 28 about LUCIFER, either,
which you confuse with this passage. The reference to "Lucifer",
i.e. the PLANET VENUS is used as an analog in ISAIAH, not
Ezekiel, and it refers to the KING OF BABYLON!

ALSO: Genesis 3:1-6, is about a TALKING SNAKE character
in a creation fable. You LIE what you say
"Satan used a sincere motive to tempt Eve- "You will become like God!"
In fact there is, once again, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about
any "SATAN" in the entire book of Genesis!

And so on and on, your whole discourse is based on LIES,
"Dr". Anyone swallowing it is liable to get intellectual
"gastrich" ulcers. ;-) -- L.


"Dr. Jason Gastrich" wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
> I've updated my site on Satan and it is more reader-friendly. It reveals a
> number of interesting things about Satan, including his origin, his
> limitations, etc. See http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/satan.htm.
>
> God bless,
> Jason
> --
>
> The Awesome, Saving Gospel of God
> http://gospel.jcsm.org
> Are you saved? Read the gospel and make sure!

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