Bible Discussion: Catholic Church Authority & Infallibility

Catholic Church Authority & Infallibility
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Jesse Gomez
2004-01-02 07:52:06 EST
CHURCH AUTHORITY AND INFALLIBILITY


Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for
Christ.

1 Tim. 3: 15 -- Paul says the foundation of truth is not scripture,
but the Church: "...Church of the living God, the pillar and
foundation of truth."

Heb. 13: 17 -- "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep
watch over you..." The Church hierarchy is ordained by God.

Mt. 28: 18-20 -- "'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to
me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
them... teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always, until the end of the world.'" Jesus' authority
is passed on to his Church.

Eph. 3: 10 -- Even the angels are instructed by the church: "...so
that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the
church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens."

John 11: 47-52 -- John states clearly that even Caiaphas was inspired
by the Holy Spirit when, speaking from the chair of Moses, he declared
that Jesus must die so the whole nation might not perish: "He did not
say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he
ophesied..." If the Holy Spirit spoke through the unchristian conniver
Caiaphas, how is it he cannot speak through a faithful Christian pope?

Mt. 23: 1 -- Jesus acknowledges authority of even the Pharisees when
they speak from the Chair of Moses: "...Jesus spoke to the crowds and
to his disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees have taken
their seat on the chair of Moses.
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do
not follow their example.'" Again, infallibility.

1 John 4: 6 -- "We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to
us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This
is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit."
Submission to apostolic authority is the hallmark of one's
faithfulness.

Eph. 2: 19-20 -- The Church stands upon the solid rock of salvation
history. It is the "...household of God, built upon the foundation of
the apostles and the prophets..."

Mt. 18: 15-18 -- Take disagreements to the Church, not to scriptures:
"If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you
would a Gentile or a tax collector." Parallels following passage:
Dt. 17: 8-12 -- The Old Testament form of the Magisterium. It is clear
here that disagreements were to be settled by priests and judges, not
by dueling scriptures:
"Any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest...
shall die."

Eph. 3: 4-5 -- "...mystery of Christ... has now been revealed to his
holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Revelation comes to us
through the Church.

Acts 15: 30-31 -- Paul and Barnabas take the
Church's dogma to Antioch: "Upon their rrival in Antioch they called
the assembly together and delivered the letter."

Acts 16: 4 -- Paul and Timothy take Church dogmas to world: "As they
traveled from city to city, they handed to the people for observance
the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem."

Eph. 5: 25-27 -- "...even as Christ loved the church and handed
himself over for her to sanctify her... that he might present to
himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle... that she
might be holy and without blemish."

Num. 12: 1-15 -- Miriam rebels: "Is it through Moses alone that the
Lord speaks?
Does he not speak through us also?" Miriam is rendered leprous for her
sin. Yet hers is the same objection we hear from so many Protestant
brethren who are aghast at the ierarchical structure of the Mystical
Body. Even though it has always been thus, all the way back to Adam
and Eve.

Num. 16: 1-35 -- An account of revolt of Korah: "They stood before
Moses and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said,
'Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord
is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's
congregation?'
...They went down alive to the nether world with all belonging to
them; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the
community..." Again we see clearly that the community of the faithful
is hierarchical, and those who refuse to submit to it are punished.

Jude 4-11 -- Revolt of Korah is referred to: "They followed the way of
Cain... and perished in the rebellion of Korah." (See passage
immediately above.) Clearly the individual is not the most elemental
unit of God's authority; the community is.

John 14: 16-18 -- "...I will ask the Father, and he will give you
another Advocate to be with you always." Jesus' promise of
infallibility is implicit in the word, 'always.'

John 14: 25 -- "...the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my
name -- he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told
you." Again, Jesus' promise of infallibility is clear in his use of
the collectives, "everything" and "all." He does not equivocate.

John 16: 13 -- "...when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide
you to all truth." Jesus' promise to the Church he instituted is sweeping."

1 Peter 5:2-3 -- "Tend the flock of God in your midst... Do not lord it over
those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock." Peter is
speaking with great authority here. If he were not in a special
leadership role, he would not be able to command others to lead.

2 Peter 1: 20 -- "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of
scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation..."

2 Peter 2: 1-2 -- "...there will be false teachers among you, who will
introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed
them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their
licentious ways..." This passage is often used to defend belief in the
supposed Great Apostasy.' But the passage actually proves that Church
cannot have apostacized en masse, or there would not have remained a
'you' for the false teachers to be 'among.'

2 Peter 3: 16 -- "...there are some things hard to understand that the
ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they
do the other scriptures."

1 Thes. 5: 12-13 -- "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are
laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish
you, and to show esteem for them with special love on account of their
work." St. Paul upholds the hierarchy of the Church.

1 Cor. 14: 37-38 -- Community discernment takes precedence over
personal discernment:
"If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he
should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the
Lord. If anyone does not acknowledge this, he is not acknowledged."

Eph. 4: 11-16 -- "And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets,
others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the
holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of
Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of
the Son of God... so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves
and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human
trickery..." The Church is our protection against apostasy.

Gal. 1: 8 --"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to
you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one
be accursed. As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone
preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let
that one be accursed." We should not believe interpretations of the
Word that are not endorsed by the apostolic authority of the Church


--
Jesse Gomez Jr
In Beautiful Norway



Daywalker
2004-01-19 09:01:01 EST
you seem unconvinced



Misty
2004-01-20 05:14:51 EST


daywalker wrote:
> you seem unconvinced
>
>


Perfectly Innocent
2004-01-20 21:36:35 EST
"Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message news:<6EhJb.67$nJ2.492@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> CHURCH AUTHORITY AND INFALLIBILITY
>
> Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for
> Christ.

It is absolutely true that the Church speaks for Christ. However,
unrepentant homosexuals, pedophiles, liars and murderers do not speak
for Christ.

Eugene Shubert
http://www.everythingimportant.org

The Last Church
2004-01-21 23:33:52 EST
>> CHURCH AUTHORITY AND INFALLIBILITY
>>
>> Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
>> says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for
>> Christ.

The Church does not speak for Christ or God. The priest says come
here little boy. Want some Candy? Let me unzip that for you.
Church pedophile's are not speaking for Christ. Thieving preachers
do speak for Christ.
The spirit of Christ speaks for itself.

Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to the Roman Catholic
Church." The pope himself says it clearly and without equivocation:
The Church speaks for God, and any one who does not believe it
we will kill and torture.

The Bible;
Christ says anyone claiming my authority after I am dead will
be lying. Anyone claiming to speak for Christ or God are lying.
( look it up)

.
**************************
A preacher is the blind
leading the blind...

The Last Church
http://www.thelastchurch.org
m*l@thelastchurch.org

alt.religion.thelastchurch
alt.religion.the-last-church

Stone
2004-01-24 23:47:28 EST
The Roman catholic church is not a real Christian church. It is mostly
pagan with a false Christian front.

Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of
the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman
p.359

You can read in detail about the paganism that is in the Roman
catholic church in this online book, THE TWO BABYLONS, found at this
website:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm


You can read how the catholic doctrines contradict the bible in the
online book, Understanding Roman Catholicism, at this website:
(written by a former catholic)
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp

"Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message news:<6EhJb.67$nJ2.492@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> CHURCH AUTHORITY AND INFALLIBILITY
>
>
> Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for
> Christ.
>
> 1 Tim. 3: 15 -- Paul says the foundation of truth is not scripture,
> but the Church: "...Church of the living God, the pillar and
> foundation of truth."
>
> Heb. 13: 17 -- "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep
> watch over you..." The Church hierarchy is ordained by God.
>
> Mt. 28: 18-20 -- "'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to
> me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
> them... teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And behold,
> I am with you always, until the end of the world.'" Jesus' authority
> is passed on to his Church.
>
> Eph. 3: 10 -- Even the angels are instructed by the church: "...so
> that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the
> church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens."
>
> John 11: 47-52 -- John states clearly that even Caiaphas was inspired
> by the Holy Spirit when, speaking from the chair of Moses, he declared
> that Jesus must die so the whole nation might not perish: "He did not
> say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he
> ophesied..." If the Holy Spirit spoke through the unchristian conniver
> Caiaphas, how is it he cannot speak through a faithful Christian pope?
>
> Mt. 23: 1 -- Jesus acknowledges authority of even the Pharisees when
> they speak from the Chair of Moses: "...Jesus spoke to the crowds and
> to his disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees have taken
> their seat on the chair of Moses.
> Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do
> not follow their example.'" Again, infallibility.
>
> 1 John 4: 6 -- "We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to
> us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This
> is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit."
> Submission to apostolic authority is the hallmark of one's
> faithfulness.
>
> Eph. 2: 19-20 -- The Church stands upon the solid rock of salvation
> history. It is the "...household of God, built upon the foundation of
> the apostles and the prophets..."
>
> Mt. 18: 15-18 -- Take disagreements to the Church, not to scriptures:
> "If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you
> would a Gentile or a tax collector." Parallels following passage:
> Dt. 17: 8-12 -- The Old Testament form of the Magisterium. It is clear
> here that disagreements were to be settled by priests and judges, not
> by dueling scriptures:
> "Any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest...
> shall die."
>
> Eph. 3: 4-5 -- "...mystery of Christ... has now been revealed to his
> holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Revelation comes to us
> through the Church.
>
> Acts 15: 30-31 -- Paul and Barnabas take the
> Church's dogma to Antioch: "Upon their rrival in Antioch they called
> the assembly together and delivered the letter."
>
> Acts 16: 4 -- Paul and Timothy take Church dogmas to world: "As they
> traveled from city to city, they handed to the people for observance
> the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem."
>
> Eph. 5: 25-27 -- "...even as Christ loved the church and handed
> himself over for her to sanctify her... that he might present to
> himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle... that she
> might be holy and without blemish."
>
> Num. 12: 1-15 -- Miriam rebels: "Is it through Moses alone that the
> Lord speaks?
> Does he not speak through us also?" Miriam is rendered leprous for her
> sin. Yet hers is the same objection we hear from so many Protestant
> brethren who are aghast at the ierarchical structure of the Mystical
> Body. Even though it has always been thus, all the way back to Adam
> and Eve.
>
> Num. 16: 1-35 -- An account of revolt of Korah: "They stood before
> Moses and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said,
> 'Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord
> is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's
> congregation?'
> ...They went down alive to the nether world with all belonging to
> them; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the
> community..." Again we see clearly that the community of the faithful
> is hierarchical, and those who refuse to submit to it are punished.
>
> Jude 4-11 -- Revolt of Korah is referred to: "They followed the way of
> Cain... and perished in the rebellion of Korah." (See passage
> immediately above.) Clearly the individual is not the most elemental
> unit of God's authority; the community is.
>
> John 14: 16-18 -- "...I will ask the Father, and he will give you
> another Advocate to be with you always." Jesus' promise of
> infallibility is implicit in the word, 'always.'
>
> John 14: 25 -- "...the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my
> name -- he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told
> you." Again, Jesus' promise of infallibility is clear in his use of
> the collectives, "everything" and "all." He does not equivocate.
>
> John 16: 13 -- "...when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide
> you to all truth." Jesus' promise to the Church he instituted is sweeping."
>
> 1 Peter 5:2-3 -- "Tend the flock of God in your midst... Do not lord it over
> those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock." Peter is
> speaking with great authority here. If he were not in a special
> leadership role, he would not be able to command others to lead.
>
> 2 Peter 1: 20 -- "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of
> scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation..."
>
> 2 Peter 2: 1-2 -- "...there will be false teachers among you, who will
> introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed
> them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their
> licentious ways..." This passage is often used to defend belief in the
> supposed Great Apostasy.' But the passage actually proves that Church
> cannot have apostacized en masse, or there would not have remained a
> 'you' for the false teachers to be 'among.'
>
> 2 Peter 3: 16 -- "...there are some things hard to understand that the
> ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they
> do the other scriptures."
>
> 1 Thes. 5: 12-13 -- "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are
> laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish
> you, and to show esteem for them with special love on account of their
> work." St. Paul upholds the hierarchy of the Church.
>
> 1 Cor. 14: 37-38 -- Community discernment takes precedence over
> personal discernment:
> "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he
> should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the
> Lord. If anyone does not acknowledge this, he is not acknowledged."
>
> Eph. 4: 11-16 -- "And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets,
> others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the
> holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of
> Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of
> the Son of God... so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves
> and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human
> trickery..." The Church is our protection against apostasy.
>
> Gal. 1: 8 --"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to
> you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one
> be accursed. As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone
> preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let
> that one be accursed." We should not believe interpretations of the
> Word that are not endorsed by the apostolic authority of the Church

Dirk Hartog
2004-01-25 09:19:17 EST
"Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message

> Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> says it clearly and without equivocation:

Well, it's not really Jesus _himself_ saying it, is it? It's really
someone decades and decades later, who never claims to have met Jesus,
who doesn't give his (the gospel writer's) own name, claiming this is
what Jesus said. He knew this by magic, do you think?

Dirk Hartog

Dirk Hartog
2004-01-25 17:09:23 EST
Dude, Catholicism _defined_ modern Christianity. Early Catholics put
baptism, the Eucharist, salvation, and a dying & rising godman -- all
deeply Pagan ideas -- at the center of orthodox Christianity. There
were other Christianities back then, with different rituals and
different theologies: the Catholic Church excluded them all.
Catholicism defined modern Christianity.

The Christian Bible is a Catholic creation. There were lots and lots
of gospels in the early church, lots of acts of lots of apostles, lots
of revelations. The books in the modern Bible were chosen by Catholic
priests in the fourth century -- specifically chosen to agree with
Catholic doctrine. The books that agreed with Catholic doctrine got
in. The books that disagreed with Catholic doctrine didn't.
Catholicism defined modern Christianity.

Your imagined real Christianity is a little caboose at the end of a
ten mile Catholic train.

Dirk Hartog

Ray Michael OKeeffe
2004-01-26 18:00:08 EST
Strangely enough, I was born into the Catholic Church... but to cut the
story short, I am not one today. I am a believer in Jesus Christ the only
begotten son of God, who died for the sins of all mankind and rose again. I
have a deeper relationship with God now more than ever before, constantly in
union with His Holy Spirit (true communion)

We have a show here on Sundays on ABC, or at least we did, where they show a
different faith's service/ritual. I watch a Jewish gathering in a Synagogue,
and appart from some variations in words, the ritual was basically the same
as the Catholic Mass.

It seems to me that all the daughters of the Catholic Church, protestant
gatherings, also have some of the fundamental flaws of their Mother Church.
That of getting ritual and rhetoric in the way of each individuals communion
in spirit with God. And of course the money thing.

It is so much easier for a poor person to have a relationship with God, for
their life is not complicated. It is better to be poor and righteous than
rich and a liar.

It is better to love your family and be with them, rather than be at work
all the time, paying for the breakdown of your family.

One God union with One Man. that Man is you sister. That man is every one.
When we compare ourselves to others, we miss the point. When we admire God
and want to be like Him, we are doing His will. Anything else is baggage,
idols getting in the way of our union/communion/ (worship in spirit and in
truth) of the one true God.

Don't be a blind follower. Take responsibility for how you relate to God and
to your human brother and sisters, that is all of mankind. In doing so, you
have found the truth and the union with God through Jesus, to do Gods will.

--
Peace and Love

Jesus is Lord

The signs of the beast are here now!
Pointing to Jesus return!
www.id-chip.4t.com

Keep your eyes open and use your mind to see.

Online NewsPaper about Signs of the End Times
http://beast666.faithweb.com/paper/page1.html

End times Homepage at...
http://beast666.faithweb.com/

Ray Michael O'Keeffe
r*e@888hotmail.com
(Remove the 888 to email)

(please do not send attachments for all mail with attachments is filtered as
junk mail and deleted)

news:alt.bible.prophecy
====================================


"stone" <stone_2003@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:5cfa0b68.0401242047.2adbd5b3@posting.google.com...
> The Roman catholic church is not a real Christian church. It is mostly
> pagan with a false Christian front.
>
> Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
> incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
> seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
> sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
> images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of
> the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman
> p.359
>
> You can read in detail about the paganism that is in the Roman
> catholic church in this online book, THE TWO BABYLONS, found at this
> website:
> http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm
>
>
> You can read how the catholic doctrines contradict the bible in the
> online book, Understanding Roman Catholicism, at this website:
> (written by a former catholic)
> http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp
>
> "Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message
news:<6EhJb.67$nJ2.492@news4.e.nsc.no>...
> > CHURCH AUTHORITY AND INFALLIBILITY
> >
> >
> > Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> > says it clearly and without equivocation: The Church speaks for
> > Christ.
> >
> > 1 Tim. 3: 15 -- Paul says the foundation of truth is not scripture,
> > but the Church: "...Church of the living God, the pillar and
> > foundation of truth."
> >
> > Heb. 13: 17 -- "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep
> > watch over you..." The Church hierarchy is ordained by God.
> >
> > Mt. 28: 18-20 -- "'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to
> > me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
> > them... teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And behold,
> > I am with you always, until the end of the world.'" Jesus' authority
> > is passed on to his Church.
> >
> > Eph. 3: 10 -- Even the angels are instructed by the church: "...so
> > that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the
> > church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens."
> >
> > John 11: 47-52 -- John states clearly that even Caiaphas was inspired
> > by the Holy Spirit when, speaking from the chair of Moses, he declared
> > that Jesus must die so the whole nation might not perish: "He did not
> > say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he
> > ophesied..." If the Holy Spirit spoke through the unchristian conniver
> > Caiaphas, how is it he cannot speak through a faithful Christian pope?
> >
> > Mt. 23: 1 -- Jesus acknowledges authority of even the Pharisees when
> > they speak from the Chair of Moses: "...Jesus spoke to the crowds and
> > to his disciples, saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees have taken
> > their seat on the chair of Moses.
> > Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do
> > not follow their example.'" Again, infallibility.
> >
> > 1 John 4: 6 -- "We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to
> > us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This
> > is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit."
> > Submission to apostolic authority is the hallmark of one's
> > faithfulness.
> >
> > Eph. 2: 19-20 -- The Church stands upon the solid rock of salvation
> > history. It is the "...household of God, built upon the foundation of
> > the apostles and the prophets..."
> >
> > Mt. 18: 15-18 -- Take disagreements to the Church, not to scriptures:
> > "If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you
> > would a Gentile or a tax collector." Parallels following passage:
> > Dt. 17: 8-12 -- The Old Testament form of the Magisterium. It is clear
> > here that disagreements were to be settled by priests and judges, not
> > by dueling scriptures:
> > "Any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest...
> > shall die."
> >
> > Eph. 3: 4-5 -- "...mystery of Christ... has now been revealed to his
> > holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Revelation comes to us
> > through the Church.
> >
> > Acts 15: 30-31 -- Paul and Barnabas take the
> > Church's dogma to Antioch: "Upon their rrival in Antioch they called
> > the assembly together and delivered the letter."
> >
> > Acts 16: 4 -- Paul and Timothy take Church dogmas to world: "As they
> > traveled from city to city, they handed to the people for observance
> > the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem."
> >
> > Eph. 5: 25-27 -- "...even as Christ loved the church and handed
> > himself over for her to sanctify her... that he might present to
> > himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle... that she
> > might be holy and without blemish."
> >
> > Num. 12: 1-15 -- Miriam rebels: "Is it through Moses alone that the
> > Lord speaks?
> > Does he not speak through us also?" Miriam is rendered leprous for her
> > sin. Yet hers is the same objection we hear from so many Protestant
> > brethren who are aghast at the ierarchical structure of the Mystical
> > Body. Even though it has always been thus, all the way back to Adam
> > and Eve.
> >
> > Num. 16: 1-35 -- An account of revolt of Korah: "They stood before
> > Moses and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said,
> > 'Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord
> > is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's
> > congregation?'
> > ...They went down alive to the nether world with all belonging to
> > them; the earth closed over them, and they perished from the
> > community..." Again we see clearly that the community of the faithful
> > is hierarchical, and those who refuse to submit to it are punished.
> >
> > Jude 4-11 -- Revolt of Korah is referred to: "They followed the way of
> > Cain... and perished in the rebellion of Korah." (See passage
> > immediately above.) Clearly the individual is not the most elemental
> > unit of God's authority; the community is.
> >
> > John 14: 16-18 -- "...I will ask the Father, and he will give you
> > another Advocate to be with you always." Jesus' promise of
> > infallibility is implicit in the word, 'always.'
> >
> > John 14: 25 -- "...the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my
> > name -- he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told
> > you." Again, Jesus' promise of infallibility is clear in his use of
> > the collectives, "everything" and "all." He does not equivocate.
> >
> > John 16: 13 -- "...when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide
> > you to all truth." Jesus' promise to the Church he instituted is
sweeping."
> >
> > 1 Peter 5:2-3 -- "Tend the flock of God in your midst... Do not lord it
over
> > those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock." Peter is
> > speaking with great authority here. If he were not in a special
> > leadership role, he would not be able to command others to lead.
> >
> > 2 Peter 1: 20 -- "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of
> > scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation..."
> >
> > 2 Peter 2: 1-2 -- "...there will be false teachers among you, who will
> > introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed
> > them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their
> > licentious ways..." This passage is often used to defend belief in the
> > supposed Great Apostasy.' But the passage actually proves that Church
> > cannot have apostacized en masse, or there would not have remained a
> > 'you' for the false teachers to be 'among.'
> >
> > 2 Peter 3: 16 -- "...there are some things hard to understand that the
> > ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they
> > do the other scriptures."
> >
> > 1 Thes. 5: 12-13 -- "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are
> > laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish
> > you, and to show esteem for them with special love on account of their
> > work." St. Paul upholds the hierarchy of the Church.
> >
> > 1 Cor. 14: 37-38 -- Community discernment takes precedence over
> > personal discernment:
> > "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he
> > should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the
> > Lord. If anyone does not acknowledge this, he is not acknowledged."
> >
> > Eph. 4: 11-16 -- "And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets,
> > others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the
> > holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of
> > Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of
> > the Son of God... so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves
> > and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human
> > trickery..." The Church is our protection against apostasy.
> >
> > Gal. 1: 8 --"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to
> > you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one
> > be accursed. As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone
> > preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let
> > that one be accursed." We should not believe interpretations of the
> > Word that are not endorsed by the apostolic authority of the Church



Dore
2004-02-02 21:18:27 EST
> "Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message
>
> > Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> > says it clearly and without equivocation:

And what does that have to do with the Catholic church, since they didn't
even exist until hundreds of years after Christ's death. Fact is, the
Catholic Church doesn't listen, nor DO anything that Christ said, but
perverts, profanes, falsifies, distorts and blasphemes His words.

--
Dore

www.dorewilliamson.com



"Dirk Hartog" <thedirkhartog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:acf48a55.0401250619.4333000d@posting.google.com...
> "Jesse Gomez" <jesse.gomez@sensewave.com> wrote in message
>
> > Lk. 10: 16 -- "Whoever listens to you listens to me..." Jesus himself
> > says it clearly and without equivocation:
>
> Well, it's not really Jesus _himself_ saying it, is it? It's really
> someone decades and decades later, who never claims to have met Jesus,
> who doesn't give his (the gospel writer's) own name, claiming this is
> what Jesus said. He knew this by magic, do you think?
>
> Dirk Hartog


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