Bible Discussion: Mutations In Evolution Religion

Mutations In Evolution Religion
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IknowHimDoYou
2003-12-19 17:41:18 EST
Mutations in Evolution Religion

Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have been
observed to produce new features in organisms."

When evolutionists begin to talk about mutations, they tacitly aknowledge
that natural selection, by itself, cannot explain the rise of new genetic
information. Somehow they have to explain the introduction of completely
new genetic instructions for feathers and other wonders that never existed
in "simpler" life forms. So they place their faith in mutations.

In the process of defending mutations as a mechanism for creating(pun
intended) new genetic code, they attack a strawman version of the
creationist model, and thy have no answer for the creationists' real
scientific objections that mutations are a loss of genetic information.

Fact:

Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore mutations
are the death sentence for evolution.

--
Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas

Is it opinion? Is it fact? Is it truth?

Thore Schmechtig
2003-12-19 17:56:17 EST
> Fact:
> Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
> eliminate traits.

Fact:
The theory of evolution is no religion as nothing supernatural need be
believed.
Fact:
I-know-SHIT lies in his above statement, as usual.
Fact:
I-know-SHIT has proven just some days ago that he is too dumb to
calculate 12 - 9.

> Is it opinion? Is it fact? Is it truth?

If its name is I-know-SHIT then it's idiocy.



TOP TEN SIGNS YOU'RE A (CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALIST

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of
gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when
someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists
say that people evolved from other life forms, but you
have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were
created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem
believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the
"atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even
flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all
the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the
elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" --
including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and
Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have
no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated
Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed,
came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little
loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth
(4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with
believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting
in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of
generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet
with the exception of those who share your beliefs --
though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend
Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet
consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and
physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot
rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be
all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it
comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be
evidence that prayer works. And you think that the
remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and
agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church
history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Adam Marczyk
2003-12-19 18:38:18 EST
IknowHimDoYou <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com...
> Mutations in Evolution Religion
>
> Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have been
> observed to produce new features in organisms."
>
> When evolutionists begin to talk about mutations, they tacitly aknowledge
> that natural selection, by itself, cannot explain the rise of new genetic
> information. Somehow they have to explain the introduction of completely
> new genetic instructions for feathers and other wonders that never
> existed in "simpler" life forms. So they place their faith in mutations.
>
> In the process of defending mutations as a mechanism for creating(pun
> intended) new genetic code, they attack a strawman version of the
> creationist model, and thy have no answer for the creationists' real
> scientific objections that mutations are a loss of genetic information.
>
> Fact:
>
> Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
> eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore mutations
> are the death sentence for evolution.

Information-Increasing Mutations
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=pdSCb.7459%24zn6.1296%40news02.roc.ny

--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Dave Oldridge
2003-12-19 20:06:16 EST
I*m@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:

> Mutations in Evolution Religion
>
> Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
> been observed to produce new features in organisms."
>
> When evolutionists begin to talk about mutations, they tacitly
> aknowledge that natural selection, by itself, cannot explain the rise
> of new genetic information. Somehow they have to explain the
> introduction of completely new genetic instructions for feathers and
> other wonders that never existed in "simpler" life forms. So they
> place their faith in mutations.
>
> In the process of defending mutations as a mechanism for creating(pun
> intended) new genetic code, they attack a strawman version of the
> creationist model, and thy have no answer for the creationists' real
> scientific objections that mutations are a loss of genetic
> information.
>
> Fact:
>
> Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
> eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
> mutations are the death sentence for evolution.

Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new features
and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the genome is new
information for natural selection. Mr. Know-nothing has simply proved by
posting this that he either doesn't know the facts or doesn't mind lying
about them, repeating the lies his mentors have given him for
"ammunition."

This "witness" is an abomination in the sight of Almighty God and it will
not be permitted to last. It cannot even BEGIN to stand in his presence.

--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667

Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

Alan Wostenberg
2003-12-20 09:24:56 EST


Dave Oldridge wrote:
> IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
> news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:
>
>
>>Mutations in Evolution Religion
>>
>>Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
>>been observed to produce new features in organisms."

>>Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
>>eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
>>mutations are the death sentence for evolution.
>
>
> Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
> also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new features
> and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the genome is new
> information for natural selection.

How do you know these are random mutations, rather than a preprogrammed
response to environmental changes?


Zachriel
2003-12-20 10:13:53 EST

"Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
news:3FE45BB8.9040307@psalmweaver.com...
>
>
> Dave Oldridge wrote:
> > IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
> > news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:
> >
> >
> >>Mutations in Evolution Religion
> >>
> >>Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
> >>been observed to produce new features in organisms."
>
> >>Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
> >>eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
> >>mutations are the death sentence for evolution.
> >
> >
> > Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
> > also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new
features
> > and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the genome is
new
> > information for natural selection.
>
> How do you know these are random mutations, rather than a preprogrammed
> response to environmental changes?
>

We can *directly observe* mutations as random changes to the genome. We can
also *directly observe* the change in allele frequencies in populations over
time. However, we know of several instances where mutations are not exactly
random. For instance, complex organisms have gene repair mechanisms, so that
many random mutations are repaired, leaving other not-so random mutations.

The "directed mutation hypothesis" is constantly being subjected to the
experimental method, and may have some significance in the study of cancer.

Mathematical Issues Arising From the Directed Mutation Controversy , "from a
mathematical point of view, this article suggests that some of the evidence
accumulated to date to support the directed mutation hypothesis is weaker
than was originally thought and may be invalid."
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/164/1/373

Mutation and Cancer: The Antecedents to Our Studies of Adaptive Mutation,
"LITTLE excuse is needed for still being interested in mutation."
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/1433

Mechanisms of Directed Mutation, "Spontaneous mutants arise among
nondividing populations of Escherichia coli in apparent response to
selective conditions. In this report we investigate several hypotheses to
account for the role of selection in the production of these ``directed'' or
'adaptive' mutations."
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/131/4/783




Zachriel
2003-12-20 10:17:29 EST

"Zachriel" <angel@zachriel.com> wrote in message
news:bHZEb.4954$pb5.969479283@twister1.starband.net...
>
> "Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
> news:3FE45BB8.9040307@psalmweaver.com...
> >
> >
> > Dave Oldridge wrote:
> > > IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
> > > news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Mutations in Evolution Religion
> > >>
> > >>Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
> > >>been observed to produce new features in organisms."
> >
> > >>Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
> > >>eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
> > >>mutations are the death sentence for evolution.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
> > > also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new
> features
> > > and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the genome is
> new
> > > information for natural selection.
> >
> > How do you know these are random mutations, rather than a preprogrammed
> > response to environmental changes?
> >
>
> We can *directly observe* mutations as random changes to the genome. We
can
> also *directly observe* the change in allele frequencies in populations
over
> time. However, we know of several instances where mutations are not
exactly
> random. For instance, complex organisms have gene repair mechanisms, so
that
> many random mutations are repaired, leaving other not-so random mutations.
>
> The "directed mutation hypothesis" is constantly being subjected to the
> experimental method, and may have some significance in the study of
cancer.
>
> Mathematical Issues Arising From the Directed Mutation Controversy , "from
a
> mathematical point of view, this article suggests that some of the
evidence
> accumulated to date to support the directed mutation hypothesis is weaker
> than was originally thought and may be invalid."
> http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/164/1/373
>
> Mutation and Cancer: The Antecedents to Our Studies of Adaptive Mutation,
> "LITTLE excuse is needed for still being interested in mutation."
> http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/148/4/1433
>
> Mechanisms of Directed Mutation, "Spontaneous mutants arise among
> nondividing populations of Escherichia coli in apparent response to
> selective conditions. In this report we investigate several hypotheses to
> account for the role of selection in the production of these ``directed''
or
> 'adaptive' mutations."
> http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/131/4/783
>
>
>

I would just like to point out that this in no way supports the idea of
"Intelligent Design". All this information is consistent with current
understanding of the Theory of Evolution, but merely explores some of its
edges.

It would be very unwise to base your religion on some temporal hypothesis of
biology.






Dave Oldridge
2003-12-20 10:48:23 EST
Alan Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in
news:3FE45BB8.9040307@psalmweaver.com:

>
>
> Dave Oldridge wrote:
>> IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
>> news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:
>>
>>
>>>Mutations in Evolution Religion
>>>
>>>Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
>>>been observed to produce new features in organisms."
>
>>>Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
>>>eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
>>>mutations are the death sentence for evolution.
>>
>>
>> Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
>> also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new
>> features and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the
>> genome is new information for natural selection.
>
> How do you know these are random mutations, rather than a
> preprogrammed response to environmental changes?

Studies show that, while some environmental changes can change the RATE
of mutations, there is no correlation with the TYPE of mutation.

--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667

Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

Matt Silberstein
2003-12-20 11:58:06 EST
In alt.religion.christian I read this message from Alan
Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com>:

>
>
>Dave Oldridge wrote:
>> IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
>> news:IknowHim-1912031441180001@pm1-01.kalama.com:
>>
>>
>>>Mutations in Evolution Religion
>>>
>>>Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have
>>>been observed to produce new features in organisms."
>
>>>Mutations are essential to evolution religion, but mutations can only
>>>eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features. Therefore
>>>mutations are the death sentence for evolution.
>>
>>
>> Fact, mutations ARE a significant part of evolution theory. They are
>> also observed in nature. They have been observed to produce new features
>> and the simple fact is that any mutation not already in the genome is new
>> information for natural selection.
>
>How do you know these are random mutations, rather than a preprogrammed
>response to environmental changes?

We can test for this. Take a single bacteria (which only have a
single copy of their DNA). Clone it many times and build colonies
of those clones. Subject the colonies to anti-biotics of various
strengths. You can, quite quickly, evolve a colony that has
resistance to the antibiotic. If it were preprogrammed we would
expect all of the colonies to respond the same way to the
antibiotic.

Alan, you really need to stop developing ideas about biology from
pure logic, it is much easier and more accurate to look at the
world itself to find out how organisms work.



Elmer Bataitis
2003-12-20 13:37:38 EST
IknowNothing About BiologyDoYou wrote:

> Mutations in Evolution Religion
> Evolutionists say, "Mutations and other biological mechanisms have been
> observed to produce new features in organisms."

> When evolutionists begin to talk about mutations, they tacitly aknowledge
> that natural selection, by itself, cannot explain the rise of new genetic
> information. Somehow they have to explain the introduction of completely
> new genetic instructions for feathers and other wonders that never existed
> in "simpler" life forms. So they place their faith in mutations.

Absobloodlylutely amazing display of biological ignorance.

***************************************************************
Elmer Bataitis “Hot dog! Smooch city here I come!”
Planetech Services -Hobbes
585-442-2884
"...proudly wearing and displaying, as a badge of honor, the
straight jacket of conventional thought."
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