Bible Discussion: Cosmogonies Comparisons

Cosmogonies Comparisons
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Alberich
2003-12-19 16:37:20 EST
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:38:32 -0800, IknowHim@leavingsoon.com
(IknowHimDoYou) wrote:

Do you have anything on topic to post?

IknowHimDoYou
2003-12-19 16:38:32 EST
Cosmogonies Comparisons

According to Henry Morris in "The Biblical Basis of Modern Science" 2002, p129:

"The clear biblical testimony of special, fiat, completed and conserved
creation of the cosmos is explicitly supported by two great laws of
thermodynamics, the most secure generalizations about the universe that
exist in science. These two laws are universal laws...No exception to
either of them has ever been found. The first, the law of conservation of
energy and the second, also known as "time's arrow," is the universal law
of deterioration."

Evolutionary religionists claim that evolution is a universal principle of
inovation and integration, functioning in a closed-system universe. The
laws of thermodynamics describe a universal principle of conservation and
disintegration functioning in an open-system universe, created and
energized by the Creator/energizer transendent to it.

These two opposite principles cannot both be true so one must be false.
There is no real evidence for the first one to operate, however, there is
much evidence that it, in fact, cannot operate at all. Nowhere at any
time do we see information or energy increase, nor do we see anything
organize itself and pull itself up by it's own bootstraps so to speak. We
actualy see just the opposite when we observe the world around us. Energy
is always conserved and all systems are running downhill. If systems are
running downhill now it means that sometime in the past they must have
started on "full". Measurements of existing systems do in fact show that
beginning(full) fits perfectly with "In the beginning(time) God(the cause)
created(the method) heaven(space) and earth(matter/energy). Gen 1:1

--
Recte Faciendo Neminem Timeas

Is it opinion? Is it fact? Is it truth?

Thore Schmechtig
2003-12-19 17:59:31 EST
> These two opposite principles cannot both be true so one must be false.

Of course, the third option is that I-know-SHIT is too dumb to know
what he's talking about.
By the way, Mr I-know-SHIT, how much is 12 - 9?

> Is it opinion? Is it fact? Is it truth?

It is I-know-SHIT and thus a lie.



The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

Dave Oldridge
2003-12-19 20:18:53 EST
I*m@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in
news:IknowHim-1912031338320001@pm1-01.kalama.com:

> Cosmogonies Comparisons
>
> According to Henry Morris in "The Biblical Basis of Modern Science"
> 2002, p129:
>
> "The clear biblical testimony of special, fiat, completed and
> conserved creation of the cosmos is explicitly supported by two great
> laws of thermodynamics, the most secure generalizations about the
> universe that exist in science. These two laws are universal
> laws...No exception to either of them has ever been found. The first,
> the law of conservation of energy and the second, also known as
> "time's arrow," is the universal law of deterioration."

Morris is being misleading. There is strong evidence that the
conservation of mass-energy is not necessarily valid at the quantum level
and thus would not have held when the universe was less than one Planck
interval old. Besides nobody is saying it wasn't created, just how it
behaved afterwards. The fact that the universe started with zero or very
low entropy does not mean it cannot evolve. Anyone who says so is either
ignorant or a liar. NO CREATIONIST has ever answered my challenge to
show one single necessary event in the evolution of man from a single
cell organism that violates the 2nd law of thermo.

> Evolutionary religionists claim that evolution is a universal
> principle of inovation and integration, functioning in a closed-system
> universe. The laws of thermodynamics describe a universal principle
> of conservation and disintegration functioning in an open-system
> universe, created and energized by the Creator/energizer transendent
> to it.

This is just merde. You made it up to baffle brains, right? Or whoever
did write it did so.

> These two opposite principles cannot both be true so one must be
> false. There is no real evidence for the first one to operate,
> however, there is much evidence that it, in fact, cannot operate at
> all. Nowhere at any time do we see information or energy increase,

STOP RIGHT THERE!!! Information increases all the time. (Except in the
very esoteric sense in which it is used by Fred Kantor in IM).

> nor do we see anything organize itself and pull itself up by it's own
> bootstraps so to speak. We actualy see just the opposite when we

But we do. Hurricanes and tornadoes organize themselves quite without
miraculous intervention. Stars and planets form due to gravity. Living
organisms form from a single cell, often becoming complex, highly
developed organisms and all without a single shred of outside
intervention.

> observe the world around us. Energy is always conserved and all
> systems are running downhill. If systems are running downhill now it
> means that sometime in the past they must have started on "full".

>From the point of view of entropy, you are no doubt right. They are
still a long way from half empty.

> Measurements of existing systems do in fact show that beginning(full)
> fits perfectly with "In the beginning(time) God(the cause) created(the
> method) heaven(space) and earth(matter/energy). Gen 1:1

We do not, however, find complex organisms at the bottom of the fossil
record. Instead, we tend to find them in the higher layers, mostly above
the top of the Cambrian. However, I have no problem with the doctrine
that God created the universe, and there is no reason to believe it
existed (exists) outside of time itself.

--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667

Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.

The_Sage
2003-12-19 20:27:02 EST
>Reply to article by: IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou)
>Date written: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:38:32 -0800
>MsgID:<IknowHim-1912031338320001@pm1-01.kalama.com>

>Cosmogonies Comparisons

>According to Henry Morris in "The Biblical Basis of Modern Science" 2002, p129:

>"The clear biblical testimony of special, fiat, completed and conserved
>creation of the cosmos is explicitly supported by two great laws of
>thermodynamics, the most secure generalizations about the universe that
>exist in science. These two laws are universal laws...No exception to
>either of them has ever been found. The first, the law of conservation of
>energy and the second, also known as "time's arrow," is the universal law
>of deterioration."

Yet another scientifically illiterate Christian leaves their mark of ignorance
upon the world....

1) Thanks to Einstein and his energy-mass equivalence relation, the first law is
no longer the conservation of energy but the conservation of energy-mass,
since it is possible to "lose" energy when it converts to mass or vice versa.
2) The second law states that energy will always flow from a higher potential to
a lower one -- nothing more, nothing less. Time's Arrow and entropy are
derived from that law but are not thermodynamic laws in and of themselves.

>Evolutionary religionists claim that evolution is a universal principle of
>inovation and integration, functioning in a closed-system universe.

Wrong. The Earth functions in an open-system called the Solar System.

>The laws of thermodynamics describe a universal principle of conservation and
>disintegration functioning in an open-system universe, created and
>energized by the Creator/energizer transendent to it.

Oops! The second law of thermodynamics is never described as a balance of
creation and disintegration. Entropy is about a loss of information, not about a
loss of orderliness.

>These two opposite principles cannot both be true so one must be false.

There is obviously now a third choice: your version of the whole thing is false.

>There is no real evidence for the first one to operate, however, there is
>much evidence that it, in fact, cannot operate at all. Nowhere at any
>time do we see information or energy increase, nor do we see anything
>organize itself and pull itself up by it's own bootstraps so to speak. We
>actualy see just the opposite when we observe the world around us. Energy
>is always conserved and all systems are running downhill.

Wrong again! As my textbook on thermodynamics states, "A second point of view to
be made regarding entropy is that frequently entropy is associated with
probability. From this point of view an irreversible increase in entropy would
be associated with a change of state from a less probable state to a more
probable state". Take notice of the fact that it does not say anything about
going from more complex to less complex because isn't it obvious that everything
around us is proceeding from less complex to more complex all the time? For
example, hydrogen atoms are combining together to become the more complicated
helium atom in stars all the time. Complex crystals are forming from their less
ordered constituents deep within the earth's crust as we speak. And more
complicated lifeforms constantly evolve from simpler lifeforms because the odds
are that they will. All of these examples I mentioned happen because probability
favors them happening and not because the second law of thermodynamics
supposedly is being violated. Two hydrogen atoms are more likely to combine
together than a helium atom is to split apart. Many minerals are more likely to
form crystals under heat and pressure than become more amorphous. And life is
more likely to develop and evolve than is not to. Everything is proceeding from
less probable states to more probable states, without ever violating the second
law of thermodynamics as creationists ignorantly proclaim.

You and your religious groupies stand corrected.

>If systems are
>running downhill now it means that sometime in the past they must have
>started on "full". Measurements of existing systems do in fact show that
>beginning(full) fits perfectly with "In the beginning(time) God(the cause)
>created(the method) heaven(space) and earth(matter/energy). Gen 1:1

When has anyone measured God? It is perfectly a fantasy.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"Little minds are interested in the extraordinary; great
minds in the commonplace"
-- Elbert Hubbard, ROYCROFT DICTIONARY AND BOOK OF EPIGRAMS
=============================================================

Libertarius
2003-12-19 21:26:12 EST


IknowHimDoYou wrote:

> Cosmogonies Comparisons
>
> According to Henry Morris in "The Biblical Basis of Modern Science" 2002, p129:
>
> "The clear biblical testimony of special, fiat, completed and conserved
> creation of the cosmos is explicitly supported by two great laws of
> thermodynamics, the most secure generalizations about the universe that
> exist in science. These two laws are universal laws...No exception to
> either of them has ever been found. The first, the law of conservation of
> energy and the second, also known as "time's arrow," is the universal law
> of deterioration."

===>That law simply states that energy CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROIED.
How does that support a silly belief in some extra-cosmic super-natural "creator"???

> Evolutionary religionists

===>There is no such thing as an "evolytionary religionist".
A "religionist" is a BELIEVER IN SOME DEITY!

> claim that evolution is a universal principle of
> inovation and integration, functioning in a closed-system universe.

===>MORE STUPIDITY!
Who says it is a "closed system universe"???

> The
> laws of thermodynamics describe a universal principle of conservation and
> disintegration functioning in an open-system universe, created and
> energized by the Creator/energizer transendent to it.

===>NONSENSE.

> These two opposite principles cannot both be true so one must be false.
> There is no real evidence for the first one to operate, however, there is
> much evidence that it, in fact, cannot operate at all. Nowhere at any
> time do we see information or energy increase, nor do we see anything
> organize itself and pull itself up by it's own bootstraps so to speak. We
> actualy see just the opposite when we observe the world around us. Energy
> is always conserved and all systems are running downhill.

===>If that were so, you would not exist!
You were a "system" before you were born and should have "run down"
long before your birth.

> If systems are
> running downhill now it means that sometime in the past they must have
> started on "full".

===>Everything is RECYCLED.

> Measurements of existing systems do in fact show that
> beginning(full) fits perfectly with "In the beginning(time) God(the cause)
> created(the method) heaven(space) and earth(matter/energy). Gen 1:1

===>EXCEPT that Gen. 1:1 DOES NOT EVEN SAY THAT!

"When God [i.e. ELOHIM, the gods - L.] began to create heaven and
earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface
of the deep and a wind from God [i.e. ELOHIM, the gods - L]
sweeping over thewater -- God [i.e. ELOHIM, the gods] said
'Let there be light'; and there was light."

THIS is the proper translation from the JPS TANAKH, translated
from the traditional Hebrew text. Ambiguities of the KJV translation
allow for the kind of twisting and spinning Creationists give this
material.

There is NO "beginning", and no creation of "space" and "matter/energy".
The text states that "matter/energy" already existed, in the form of a
shapeless, watery mass, called EARTH, out of which the ELOHIM
(gods, divine team) shaped the "heavens", i.e the sun, moon and
the tiny lights aboe called "stars", and the Earth.

THAT is the correct picture of Genesis cosmogony and
cosmology.. __ L.


Elmer Bataitis
2003-12-20 12:43:36 EST
IknowNothingDoYou wrote:

Yet another creationist misapplication of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

***************************************************************
Elmer Bataitis “Hot dog! Smooch city here I come!”
Planetech Services -Hobbes
585-442-2884
"...proudly wearing and displaying, as a badge of honor, the
straight jacket of conventional thought."
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