Bible Discussion: Omniscience - The Moral Question.

Omniscience - The Moral Question.
Posts: 296

Report Abuse

Use this form to report abuse or request takedown.
The requests are usually processed within 48 hours.

Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11   Next  (First | Last)

Therion Ware
2003-12-08 04:54:22 EST

This is posted from alt.atheism. If you don't want to have a, erm,
"full, free and frank" exchange of views, you know what not to do:
reply.

There's a lot of chat in the groups about omniscience and whether it
precludes free-will[0]. That's interesting, and there are points on
both sides. I think a seldom addressed point about omniscience, in
conjunction with omnipotence and the (as Christians would have it) all
loving nature of God, is morality.

Let's for the moment assume that omniscience does not rule out free
will, and that there is a God.

Consider this:

God has known from eternity exactly what each individual will do, what
they will suffer in their lives, and basically, everything:

"One day the Gestapo hanged a child. Even the SS were disturbed by the
prospect of hanging a young boy in front of thousands of spectators.
The child, Wiesel recalled, had the face of a 'sad-eyed angel,' was
silent, lividly pale and almost calm as he ascended the gallows.
Behind Wiesel, one of the other prisoners asked 'Where is God? Where
is He?' It took the child half an hour to die, while the prisoners
were forced to look him in the face. The same man asked 'Where is God
now?' And Wiesel heard a voice within him make this answer: 'Where is
He? Here He is - He is hanging here on this gallows.'"[1]

Now the point being made here is that presumably there are some people
who will live terrible lives, suffer beyond comprehension during them,
die terrible deaths, and be consigned to hell for the remainder of
eternity where one hears previous suffering is as nothing.

God knows this, and being omniscient has known it from eternity. This
is to say that God knows that there are some people who will be born,
suffer terribly throughout their lives, die horrible deaths and go to
hell.

The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
loving is motivated to do so.

What do you think, and why?

--

[1] - Elie Wiesel, Night, trans. Stella Rodway (Harmondsworth, 1981),
p45. In Armstrong Karen, A History of God, (Ballantine, NY 1994), p375

[0]. FWIW, I think the whole omniscience/free-will debate breaks down
should you get the chance to meet God, and he produces two stone, one
black and one white. He says to you "I know which stone you're going
to choose". You say "Which one is that," and He replies, "the black
one". Can you then go on to choose the white stone? If you say "yes,"
then God isn't omniscient, and if you say "no," then you have no
free-will. Given this and a fairly tortious inferential chain, it
seems clear that we may have free-will, but God has none at all!




--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Towelie
2003-12-08 05:43:48 EST
TV's Therion Ware wrote:
> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
> loving is motivated to do so.

Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that were
damned before they were even born.

> What do you think, and why?

The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather bring a
horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort the fetus.

--
Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order
Count the bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drum

aa #2133
apatriot #19



Dr. Jason Gastrich
2003-12-08 05:48:53 EST
towelie wrote:
> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
>> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
>> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
>> loving is motivated to do so.
>
> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
> were damned before they were even born.

On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned and sin
entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.

>> What do you think, and why?
>
> The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather
> bring a horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort
> the fetus.

After we begin saving all of the non-deformed babies that are being aborted,
then we can talk about the deformed ones.

Sincerely,
Jason



Therion Ware
2003-12-08 06:06:06 EST


On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:48:53 GMT in alt.atheism, Dr. Jason Gastrich
("Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism



>towelie wrote:
>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
>>> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
>>> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>
>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>> were damned before they were even born.
>
>On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
>supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned and sin
>entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.

Even allowing this, it is clear than an omniscient being knew from
eternity what they would do and that they would sin, and knew what
would descend from that.

>>> What do you think, and why?
>>
>> The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather
>> bring a horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort
>> the fetus.
>
>After we begin saving all of the non-deformed babies that are being aborted,
>then we can talk about the deformed ones.

I think you're missing the point Jason. Let me rehearse it for you:

Some people will be born into suffering, will live in it all their
lives, and die horribly. And some of these will end up in hell.

Is it moral that an omniscient God, who has known this will happen
from eternity creates them or allows their creation?


--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.

Towelie
2003-12-08 06:10:24 EST
TV's Dr. Jason Gastrich wrote:
> towelie wrote:
>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow
>>> the creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it
>>> will happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being
>>> all
>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>
>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>> were damned before they were even born.
>
> On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
> supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned
> and sin entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.

If they had truly been perfect, then they *couldn't* have "sinned." Is that
too hard for you to understand?

>>> What do you think, and why?
>>
>> The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather
>> bring a horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort
>> the fetus.
>
> After we begin saving all of the non-deformed babies that are being
> aborted, then we can talk about the deformed ones.

The aborted fetuses are being saved, they're being saved from a terrible
life.

--
Don't waste your touch, you won't feel anything
Or were you sent to save me?
I've thought too much
You won't find anything worthy of redeeming

AF I - The Leaving Song Pt. II

aa #2133
apatriot #19



Dr. Jason Gastrich
2003-12-08 06:26:42 EST
towelie wrote:
> TV's Dr. Jason Gastrich wrote:
>> towelie wrote:
>>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow
>>>> the creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it
>>>> will happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being
>>>> all
>>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>>
>>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>>> were damned before they were even born.
>>
>> On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They
>> were supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they
>> sinned and sin entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living
>> things.
>
> If they had truly been perfect, then they *couldn't* have "sinned."
> Is that too hard for you to understand?

It's not too hard to understand. It simply isn't true. They had a choice.
They were told not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit. Is that too hard
for you to understand?

>>>> What do you think, and why?
>>>
>>> The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather
>>> bring a horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort
>>> the fetus.
>>
>> After we begin saving all of the non-deformed babies that are being
>> aborted, then we can talk about the deformed ones.
>
> The aborted fetuses are being saved, they're being saved from a
> terrible life.

A terrible life because . . . ? Because the mother chooses to be
irresponsible? Why don't you let them decide what kind of life they'll have
and choose to give them life?

Jason



Towelie
2003-12-08 06:37:33 EST
TV's Dr. Jason Gastrich wrote:
> towelie wrote:
>> TV's Dr. Jason Gastrich wrote:
>>> towelie wrote:
>>>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow
>>>>> the creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it
>>>>> will happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being
>>>>> all
>>>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>>>> were damned before they were even born.
>>>
>>> On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They
>>> were supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they
>>> sinned and sin entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living
>>> things.
>>
>> If they had truly been perfect, then they *couldn't* have "sinned."
>> Is that too hard for you to understand?
>
> It's not too hard to understand. It simply isn't true. They had a
> choice. They were told not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit. Is
> that too hard for you to understand?

They made a *mistake*. It would be impossible for a perfect being to err.
Unless you have a different meaning for "perfect" than everybody else.

>>>>> What do you think, and why?
>>>>
>>>> The same attitude is shared by many pro-lifers, who would rather
>>>> bring a horribly deformed baby into the world rather than to abort
>>>> the fetus.
>>>
>>> After we begin saving all of the non-deformed babies that are being
>>> aborted, then we can talk about the deformed ones.
>>
>> The aborted fetuses are being saved, they're being saved from a
>> terrible life.
>
> A terrible life because . . . ? Because the mother chooses to be
> irresponsible? Why don't you let them decide what kind of life
> they'll have and choose to give them life?

Why don't you start offering to adopt these would-be abortions? Put up or
shut the fuck up.

--
Don't waste your touch, you won't feel anything
Or were you sent to save me?
I've thought too much
You won't find anything worthy of redeeming

AF I - The Leaving Song Pt. II

aa #2133
apatriot #19



Strig
2003-12-08 08:39:20 EST
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:48:53 GMT, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org>
wrote:

>towelie wrote:
>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
>>> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
>>> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>
>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>> were damned before they were even born.
>
>On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
>supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned and sin
>entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.

And this is why the fundies have to cling to the ridiculous Adam & Eve
story. If they stopped believing it they would have to admit that
their god is the most cruel, amoral monster imaginable.
I wonder how the christians who don't believe the nonsense in Genesis
manage to ignore this?

:




..

aa #1734

Robibnikoff
2003-12-08 09:05:42 EST
In article <pGYAb.3655$R9.1847@twister.socal.rr.com>, Dr. Jason Gastrich says...
>
>towelie wrote:
>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
>>> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
>>> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>
>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>> were damned before they were even born.
>
>On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
>supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned and sin
>entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.

But isn't everything according to your god's plan?

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557

Hector
2003-12-08 09:48:31 EST
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:39:20 +0000, Strig <hswivelNOSPAM@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:48:53 GMT, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <news@jcsm.org>
>wrote:
>
>>towelie wrote:
>>> TV's Therion Ware wrote:
>>>> The question is: do you think it moral for God to create or allow the
>>>> creation of such people given that He knows for a fact who it will
>>>> happen to, has the power to prevent it and presumably being all
>>>> loving is motivated to do so.
>>>
>>> Absolutely not. Only an absolute monster would create beings that
>>> were damned before they were even born.
>>
>>On the contrary, God created Adam and Eve in a perfect way. They were
>>supposed to live forever in flawless bodies. However, they sinned and sin
>>entered the world. Now, sin corrupts all living things.
>
>And this is why the fundies have to cling to the ridiculous Adam & Eve
>story. If they stopped believing it they would have to admit that
>their god is the most cruel, amoral monster imaginable.
>I wonder how the christians who don't believe the nonsense in Genesis
>manage to ignore this?
>

It's man who is the "most cruel, amoral monster imaginable."
And man has the audacity to judge his Creator and impute his moral
turpitude upon God, a being who exceeds our reality? There is a hint
of arrogance in that.

Respectfully,
Hector
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11   Next  (First | Last)


2020 - UsenetArchives.com | Contact Us | Privacy | Stats | Site Search
Become our Patron