Bible Discussion: Deborah

Deborah
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Timothy Sutter
2003-10-02 20:32:22 EST
for those unacquainted
with this sort of thing;
---
Judges 4:4-5
Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth,
was judging Israel at that time. And she would
sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah
and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the
children of Israel came up to her for judgment.
---

this Deborah is the lawgiver
like Moses among the Israelites.

-that's- what a judge is.

one who decides cases and grievances
and administers justice. basically
like the president at that time.

and this in the days when women were barely
above the status of chattle/property in every
other nation on earth.

so, don't you dare ever maintain in your deluded
little skulls that YHWH sanctified the "subjugation"
of women or anyone else for that matter.

this is exactly the reverse and you are
duping yourselves in a tremedous falsehood.

but then again, why should that come as some surprise?

and, before anyone pops up and puffs out their chests
and claims this as some source of national "pride" that
they come from a "tradition" where women are treated
all nice and people are considered equals and stuff,

-don't you dare- because this is
exactly what the Israelites
did -not- do.

they did -not- drive these evils from their midst and
they -still-, to this very day, hold to these false idols
as if -they- were their true god and cast aside YHWH
as if YHWH, the True and Living God, was a
loathesome thing to be despised.

these 'evils' being this bit;

---
Judges 2:11-13
And the children of Israel did evil
in the sight of YHWH, and served Baalim:
And they forsook YHWH God of their fathers,
which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed
other gods, of the gods of the people that were round
about them, and bowed themselves unto them,
and provoked YHWH to anger. And they
forsook YHWH, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
---

see. it's funny that when Israel did
"evil" in the sight of YHWH what they
were doing was following after the
_false_ "gods" of subjugation
and adoration of riches.

a "baal" is a "lord" and means
essentially to rule over and dominate.
and this is how _these_ people viewed a "husband"


and Ashtaroth means literally "star" and
comes from this root word "ashar" which
basically means "riches"

and YHWH suggested that these false "idols/gods"
be tossed completely from Israel's midst, but
Israel didn't do that, they habitually were
enslaved to these two.


the false idols of domination/subjugation
and glorified wealth.

-these- were "evils" in the sight of YHWH.

---
Judges 2:2-3
And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants
of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but
ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out
from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your
sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
---

anyway, the long and short of this is that it is
_exactly_ -false- to accuse YHWH of being the one
who incites "subjugation" and "adoration of riches"
among the people when YHWH considered these
very things to be "evils"


YHWH was -never- the slave driver.

-that- my dear dear chums is a very -human-
evil lifted up to a level of worship
among -you- all.

and evils YHWH suggested that -you-
drive utterly from -your- own midst.

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-02 22:53:10 EST
> ---
> Judges 2:2-3
> And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants
> of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but
> ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
> Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out
> from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your
> sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
> ---

what's sort of funny about this part concerns Paul.
-----
Luke 16:14
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money,
also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure by
the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in
the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan
to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

Philippians 3:8
Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the
excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord,
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

2 Corinthians 11:7
Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might
be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God
to you free of charge?
-----


what's sort of funny, and this is one way
to look at this, but not the only thing
to be looked at concerning these, is this;

one thing to consider is that Paul was
a Pharisee and in Luke, they suggest
that the Pharissees were lovers of money

and in Judges, it says that 'their gods
i will -not- utterly drive out from
your presence' and they shall be
'thorns in your sides'

and one of these false idols -is-
the -adoration- of wealth and
riches above God.

ok, so Paul counts his former
life in phariseeism as rubbish,

like he chopped up all his major
credit cards and dumped them
down the toilet, -or- -and- also,
that he was drubbed out of the
pharisee money grubber society
because he kept blabbing on about
Jesus Christ, whom many of the
pharisees simply hated and
detested beyond reason.

and he offers up "the gospel"
'free of charge' even though he
says that an 'ox shouldn't be
muzzled as it treads out the grain'
etc...

but still, he says that he
has a thorn in his side

which he claims is to keep him from
becoming 'exalted above measure'

apparently in his -own- measure.

you may want to look at some of the
surrounding texts of these quotations
to get a more complete picture.

it's just something funny.

and also...

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-02 23:44:45 EST
> it's just something funny.

> and also...

and also this, without drowning
the place in scripture quotes,

i just want to mention the camel
and the eye of a needle bit;

long story short;

fist off, this young rich guy
walked up to Jesus and asked
him what he must do to have
eternal life.

and Jesus said, "you know the commands"
don't lie don't cheat don't steal
don't do murder blah ...blah...blah.

and the guy said;

"i've done all these what more must i do?"

and Jesus said;

"give it all away"

and the young rich guy walked
away sadfaced because Jesus
suggested he give all his
money away.

and Jesus said,

"it is more difficult for a
man of great riches to enter
in to the kingdom of heaven
than for a camel to pass thru
a very tight squeeze."

and his 'disciples' were
dumbfounded and said;

_Huh?_ then -who- _can_ be saved?

why were they dumbfounded?

because they were being taught
that wealth and riches was a
sign of favor by God.

which is not altogether false because
Abraham was promised great material
wealth as a blessing from God.

-but- the 'favored class' had stacked the deck.
and -they- could dictate just -who-
was 'favored by God'

and, of course, they could convince
you that if you didn't get blessed
with riches, that you were not favored
by God and that it was -your- fault
that harm illness and blight
should befall you.

and so, people became enslaved to
the dictates of this favored class.

a favored class who was worshipping
at the altar of baal and astarte
-while- in the Temple of YHWH.

but i'm sure i ran on before about
how baal and astarte represent an
enslavement to the existing conditions.

etc.etc.etc.

so, for one thing,

Jesus is not saying that having and
enjoying some milk and honey is evil,

but he is saying that when you go so far
as to convince yourself that -you- -invented-
gold and silver and oil and mint and cummin

and that -you- are the arbiter
of who sees finer days, you err.

and this error becomes so
impervious to dissolution,

that you find yourself so ensnared in the
absolute -fear- of losing what -you- have
convinced yourself is your -salvation- from
the cold cruel elements, that you simply
cannot set yourself free from what amounts
to a self imposed slavery where the
slavemaster -must- keep his foot on
the heads of his slaves.

and your 'good' deeds have the
rank stench of an oily rag.

and you die in your estrangement
from the Almighty, who alone
possesses Life.

among other things.

wealth is not the evil,

pretending that wealth makes you
God is a despicable enterprise.

God is not a paranoid fiend.

but the fear of losing your safety
net is one tremendous source of paranoia.

isn't it?

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-02 23:55:59 EST
> and so, people became enslaved to
> the dictates of this favored class.

> a favored class who was worshipping
> at the altar of baal and astarte
> -while- in the Temple of YHWH.

and so, when you look in to it,

-this- is part of the enslavement
that Jesus' completed work set the
people free from.

-not- an enslavement to the law and
the evil dictates of a despotic _GOD_

but an enslavement to a favored class
of people who were using the Temple
and magisterial authority to basically
have their own way on top of people's backs.

they -used- a licentious form of 'indulgence'
to sell people the right to walk contrary to God,
and then found the people at fault when they walked
contrary to the dictates of that same favored class.

but thru Christ, -you- can and must work out
your -own- salvation in fear and trembling,
as there is no such payment to be made
outside of the payment Christ has
already accomplished.

etc.

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-03 08:21:01 EST
> they -used- a licentious form of 'indulgence'
> to sell people the right to walk contrary to God,
> and then found the people at fault when they walked
> contrary to the dictates of that same favored class.

not that anyone anywhere can sit there and say;

"the gubberment made me beat my kids
and stab my neighbor in the back"

cuz that ain't gunna go over
with the big G O D anyway

if your teeth are set on edge

it is because -you- ate unripened
grapes and drank vinegar.

not like anybody had to twist your arms
so much to get you to eat that either.

the gubberment may get called
to a higher judgement and
reckoned insolvent,

but -you- still fall into a very deep grave
from which you will not find extraction.

with no fingers left to use for pointing.

> but thru Christ, -you- can and must work out
> your -own- salvation in fear and trembling,
> as there is no such payment to be made
> outside of the payment Christ has
> already accomplished.

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-03 08:43:04 EST
> but -you- still fall into a very deep grave
> from which you will not find extraction.
> with no fingers left to use for pointing.

what'll -you- do if the grinch
steals christmas and you don't
get your special little toy?

have a hissy fit and throw rocks
from glass houses or sing your
little songs cuz you -really-
do feel all cozy on the inside?

somebody somewhere is bankin'
on you havin' a hissy fit.

cuz you're an empty shell and they'll
beat -you- over the head like a piƱata
fulla Ananias' and Sapphira's hold-outs.

Ernest T Bass
2003-10-03 10:02:55 EST
In article <3F7CC396.269A@dcemail.com>, a202010@dcemail.com says...
> for those unacquainted
> with this sort of thing;
> ---
> Judges 4:4-5
> Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth,
> was judging Israel at that time. And she would
> sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah
> and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the
> children of Israel came up to her for judgment.
> ---
>
> this Deborah is the lawgiver
> like Moses among the Israelites.
>
> -that's- what a judge is.
>
> one who decides cases and grievances
> and administers justice. basically
> like the president at that time.
>
> and this in the days when women were barely
> above the status of chattle/property in every
> other nation on earth.
>
> so, don't you dare ever maintain in your deluded
> little skulls that YHWH sanctified the "subjugation"
> of women or anyone else for that matter.
>
> this is exactly the reverse and you are
> duping yourselves in a tremedous falsehood.
>
> but then again, why should that come as some surprise?
>
> and, before anyone pops up and puffs out their chests
> and claims this as some source of national "pride" that
> they come from a "tradition" where women are treated
> all nice and people are considered equals and stuff,
>
> -don't you dare- because this is
> exactly what the Israelites
> did -not- do.
>
> they did -not- drive these evils from their midst and
> they -still-, to this very day, hold to these false idols
> as if -they- were their true god and cast aside YHWH
> as if YHWH, the True and Living God, was a
> loathesome thing to be despised.
>
> these 'evils' being this bit;
>
> ---
> Judges 2:11-13
> And the children of Israel did evil
> in the sight of YHWH, and served Baalim:
> And they forsook YHWH God of their fathers,
> which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed
> other gods, of the gods of the people that were round
> about them, and bowed themselves unto them,
> and provoked YHWH to anger. And they
> forsook YHWH, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
> ---
>
> see. it's funny that when Israel did
> "evil" in the sight of YHWH what they
> were doing was following after the
> _false_ "gods" of subjugation
> and adoration of riches.
>
> a "baal" is a "lord" and means
> essentially to rule over and dominate.
> and this is how _these_ people viewed a "husband"
>
>
> and Ashtaroth means literally "star" and
> comes from this root word "ashar" which
> basically means "riches"
>
> and YHWH suggested that these false "idols/gods"
> be tossed completely from Israel's midst, but
> Israel didn't do that, they habitually were
> enslaved to these two.
>
>
> the false idols of domination/subjugation
> and glorified wealth.
>

Oh yeah? Well; why don't you use your
head for something else other than
a place to hang your hat on.


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I disagree.

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Cite your references.

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Your twisting your words around again.

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Leave Ronald Reagan out of this. See? Your
always changing the subject because you
don't know what you're talking about. Your
words are meaningless..

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Now you're catenating again you ignorant drunken
cowpoke. I've met Japanese Beetles smarter than
you is. You know, those polka dotted bugs that
bore holes thru the roots of Cotton Wood trees
which in turn fall on your roof causing massive
structural damage and your insurance doesn't
cover damage caused by those useless mutated
cockroaches because they're not American citizens?

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Post proof or retract.

--
'Populus vult decepi, decipiatus.'
Cardinal Carlo Caraffe

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-03 10:59:04 EST
Ernest T Bass wrote:

> Timothy Sutter wrote:

> > this Deborah is the lawgiver
> > like Moses among the Israelites.
> > -that's- what a judge is.
> > one who decides cases and grievances
> > and administers justice. basically
> > like the president at that time.

> > see. it's funny that when Israel did
> > "evil" in the sight of YHWH what they
> > were doing was following after the
> > _false_ "gods" of subjugation
> > and adoration of riches.

> Oh yeah? Well; why don't you use your
> head for something else other than
> a place to hang your hat on.


tacit superficial agreement
explicit inability to detract.


> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
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> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words.

> Words words words Words words words Words words words.
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words PROSTITUTE words Words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words

> I disagree.


tell us all about how you met her on
the street corner, she rolled you, took
your gold watch and left you with a bad
case of ghonnorea?

but boy she caught your eye thru
the haze of that meth driven frenzy.



> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words .

> Cite your references.


i don't have access to your FBI file,

but my powers of deductive reasoning
allow me to peer directly in to
your personality structure.


> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words.

> Your twisting your words around again.


still dreaming of climbing the tower
and sniping at as many as you can get
into your sights in 37 seconds?

but still, you hate to be a copycat.


> Words words words Words words words Words words words Words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words.

> Leave Ronald Reagan out of this. See? Your
> always changing the subject because you
> don't know what you're talking about. Your
> words are meaningless..


and yet, -i- am not the one barricaded
in his crummy little dwelling with a loaded M-16
a flack jacket and night vision goggles
hoping he doesn't fall asleep with his
finger on the trigger and wake up
with half his head splattered on
his bleary picture of John Lennon.



> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words Prostitute Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words.

> Now you're catenating again you ignorant drunken
> cowpoke. I've met Japanese Beetles smarter than
> you is. You know, those polka dotted bugs that
> bore holes thru the roots of Cotton Wood trees
> which in turn fall on your roof causing massive
> structural damage and your insurance doesn't
> cover damage caused by those useless mutated
> cockroaches because they're not American citizens?


still 'sleeping' with plugs of cotton in your ears?

your brain is an infestation of bugs anyway

they got in before you wuz able to put up your shelter.


> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words
> Words words words Words prostitute Words words words
> Words words words Words words words Words words words.

> Post proof or retract.


seems to me, not toooo long ago, you had
bricked yourself in behind a massive
wall of cinder blocks.

finger on the trigger and slowly drinking
yourself into a rapidly deteriorating
shell of a human being.

"Ernest T. put down that rock"

Ernest T Bass
2003-10-03 14:03:24 EST
In article <3F7D8EB8.4115@dcemail.com>, a202010@dcemail.com says...
> Ernest T Bass wrote:
>
> > Timothy Sutter wrote:
>
> > > this Deborah is the lawgiver
> > > like Moses among the Israelites.
> > > -that's- what a judge is.
> > > one who decides cases and grievances
> > > and administers justice. basically
> > > like the president at that time.
>
> > > see. it's funny that when Israel did
> > > "evil" in the sight of YHWH what they
> > > were doing was following after the
> > > _false_ "gods" of subjugation
> > > and adoration of riches.
>
> > Oh yeah? Well; why don't you use your
> > head for something else other than
> > a place to hang your hat on.
>
>
> tacit superficial agreement
> explicit inability to detract.

You are a detraction. Go to yer
tiny backyard and feed Cheetoes
to the squirrels and blackbirds.
I thought that's what you were
spozed to do when you can't find
a job.


>
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words.
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words.
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words PROSTITUTE words Words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
>
> > I disagree.
>
>
> tell us all about how you met her on
> the street corner, she rolled you, took
> your gold watch and left you with a bad
> case of ghonnorea?

No pay no play.

>
> but boy she caught your eye thru
> the haze of that meth driven frenzy.
>

If you'd ever met some of the 'cooks'
you'd stop doing that shit immediately.
I gave up the dope when I found Jesus.

>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words .
>
> > Cite your references.
>
>
> i don't have access to your FBI file,

What would they want from me? All I did
was vandalize a city vehicle and get
a few DUI's. Those aren't federal crimes
as far as I know.

>
> but my powers of deductive reasoning
> allow me to peer directly in to
> your personality structure.

The scary part is that you actually
believe that you are inciteful enough
to tell the difference between yer
arse and a hole in the ground.


>
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words.
>
> > Your twisting your words around again.
>
>
> still dreaming of climbing the tower
> and sniping at as many as you can get
> into your sights in 37 seconds?
>
> but still, you hate to be a copycat.

It's been done. Now, Whitman was
a dandy shot. Even competition
marksmen are still impressed by
his accomplishment today. Then
again, the 1917 Winchester 30-06 is
still one of the most accurate
and deadly rifles in the world
and they've been around for nearly
100 years.

>
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words Words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words.
>
> > Leave Ronald Reagan out of this. See? Your
> > always changing the subject because you
> > don't know what you're talking about. Your
> > words are meaningless..
>
>
> and yet, -i- am not the one barricaded
> in his crummy little dwelling with a loaded M-16
> a flack jacket and night vision goggles
> hoping he doesn't fall asleep with his
> finger on the trigger and wake up
> with half his head splattered on
> his bleary picture of John Lennon.

I'm not really much of a fan of the
.223 and a fully automatic weapen
is just a stupid waste of ammunition.
It will penetrate most body armor, tho,
if you want to shoot at the cops who
want to come in and trash your place
and take your harddrive. That'd get
you the death penalty in many states,
tho. So it's prolly just better to
let them go thru your porn and Quicken
files. But I don't guess that you'll
have to worry about paying taxes since
you have no income.

>
>
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words Prostitute Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words.
>
> > Now you're catenating again you ignorant drunken
> > cowpoke. I've met Japanese Beetles smarter than
> > you is. You know, those polka dotted bugs that
> > bore holes thru the roots of Cotton Wood trees
> > which in turn fall on your roof causing massive
> > structural damage and your insurance doesn't
> > cover damage caused by those useless mutated
> > cockroaches because they're not American citizens?
>
>
> still 'sleeping' with plugs of cotton in your ears?

I did when I was in jail. Those niggers were so
noisy. You have to be careful not to shove the
toilet paper too far in your ears, tho, cuz
once it's stuck in there, it ain't comin out.

>
> your brain is an infestation of bugs anyway

Really? I saw this movie where earwigs would
crawl into people's ears and lay eggs in
their brains. Is that why they call them
earwigs?

>
> they got in before you wuz able to put up your shelter.

That's the thing. By the time you realize that
you should build a bunker, it's usually too late
and soon enough you'd be reported and taken into
custody on a mental health warrant -- but I'm
sure that you know all about that.

>
>
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words
> > Words words words Words prostitute Words words words
> > Words words words Words words words Words words words.
>
> > Post proof or retract.
>
>
> seems to me, not toooo long ago, you had
> bricked yourself in behind a massive
> wall of cinder blocks.

No, I was building a pit bbq grill.

>
> finger on the trigger and slowly drinking
> yourself into a rapidly deteriorating
> shell of a human being.

Everyone needs a hobby. Now go
feed the critters and stay out
yer mom's Cosmo mags, you dirty
young man.

> "Ernest T. put down that rock"
>
Watch out cuz I might just throw
one at yer head.

--
'Populus vult decepi, decipiatus.'
Cardinal Carlo Caraffe

Timothy Sutter
2003-10-03 16:33:33 EST
Ernest T Bass wrote:

> Timothy Sutter wrote:

> > Ernest T Bass wrote:

> > > Timothy Sutter wrote:

> > > > this Deborah is the lawgiver
> > > > like Moses among the Israelites.
> > > > -that's- what a judge is.
> > > > one who decides cases and grievances
> > > > and administers justice. basically
> > > > like the president at that time.

> > > > see. it's funny that when Israel did
> > > > "evil" in the sight of YHWH what they
> > > > were doing was following after the
> > > > _false_ "gods" of subjugation
> > > > and adoration of riches.

> > > Oh yeah? Well; why don't you use your
> > > head for something else other than
> > > a place to hang your hat on.

> > tacit superficial agreement
> > explicit inability to detract.

> You are a detraction.

i am a human being,
i am not an argument.

if you care to make arguments,
direct your statements to a
particular issue,

if you care to talk about me
in a personal manner, you must
show explicitly how my personal
behavior runs contrary to my
public statements.

short of this, it is empty rhetoric.
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