Bible Discussion: "Inquisition" 300 Years 300 Deaths/Texas Surpasses "Inquistion" Deaths By Far....

"Inquisition" 300 Years 300 Deaths/Texas Surpasses "Inquistion" Deaths By Far....
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Jsm
2003-07-03 14:02:44 EST
This post is not a defense of the "Inquisition",
but to put it in perspective. US states far surpass
the "Inquisition" in deaths, Tx leads in executions.

Texas has executed more than a third of the prisoners put to
death since the USA resumed executions in 1977, 217 out of 636.
Since January 1995 it has carried out an execution on average
every two weeks, ending the lives of more than 130 men and women.
In the past two-and-a-half years alone, Texas has executed more
prisoners than any other US state has done in the past 20. While
other US states have executed fewer than one in 10 of the
prisoners they have sentenced to death, Texas has killed a
quarter of the approximately 850 people it has condemned to die
since 1974. Some 455 prisoners, including the 16 named above,
await lethal injection on the Texas conveyor belt of death.
The above information is through the year 2000.

Jsm
2003-07-04 11:56:19 EST
patrick_darcy <patrickd@grandecom.net> wrote in message news:<vg96ur69us9lb8@corp.supernews.com>...
> jsm wrote:
>
> > This post is not a defense of the "Inquisition",
> > but to put it in perspective. US states far surpass
> > the "Inquisition" in deaths, Tx leads in executions.
> >
> > Texas has executed more than a third of the prisoners put to
> > death since the USA resumed executions in 1977, 217 out of 636.
> > Since January 1995 it has carried out an execution on average
> > every two weeks, ending the lives of more than 130 men and women.
> > In the past two-and-a-half years alone, Texas has executed more
> > prisoners than any other US state has done in the past 20. While
> > other US states have executed fewer than one in 10 of the
> > prisoners they have sentenced to death, Texas has killed a
> > quarter of the approximately 850 people it has condemned to die
> > since 1974. Some 455 prisoners, including the 16 named above,
> > await lethal injection on the Texas conveyor belt of death.
> > The above information is through the year 2000.
>
>
>
> if your facts are true i would say that this
> just reflects the people of texas.

Yes it does. The number of deaths in Texas
took over about a 10 year period and the
"Inquisition" took 300 years.
The following are the top death penalty executions, the
"Inquisition" pales in comparision (300 deaths in 300 years).

"Amnesty International's Death Penalty Worldwide:
Developments in 2002 finds that at least 1,526 people
were executed in 31 countries last year. China,
Iran, and the US ? a so-called ?axis of executioners?
-- account for 81 percent of all known executions in 2002,
with recorded executions in each country numbering
1,060, 113, and 71, respectively."




> the christians
> have told me over and over that they think
> many people should be killed. they have even
> mentioned to me that people that cant keep jobs
> because of some kind of mental problems should
> also be killed. texans love to kill. its not
> much of a big deal .

JCarew
2003-07-04 15:00:36 EST
JMJ

"jsm" <jsm542@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:

>patrick_darcy <patrickd@grandecom.net> wrote:

>>jsm wrote:

>>>This post is not a defense of the "Inquisition",
>>>but to put it in perspective. US states far surpass
>>>the "Inquisition" in deaths, Tx leads in executions.

>>>Texas has executed more than a third of the prisoners put to
>>>death since the USA resumed executions in 1977, 217 out of 636.
>>>Since January 1995 it has carried out an execution on average
>>>every two weeks, ending the lives of more than 130 men and women.
>>>In the past two-and-a-half years alone, Texas has executed more
>>>prisoners than any other US state has done in the past 20. While
>>>other US states have executed fewer than one in 10 of the
>>>prisoners they have sentenced to death, Texas has killed a
>>>quarter of the approximately 850 people it has condemned to die
>>>since 1974. Some 455 prisoners, including the 16 named above,
>>>await lethal injection on the Texas conveyor belt of death.
>>>The above information is through the year 2000.

>>if your facts are true i would say that this
>>just reflects the people of texas.

> Yes it does. The number of deaths in Texas
>took over about a 10 year period and the
>"Inquisition" took 300 years.
> The following are the top death penalty executions, the
>"Inquisition" pales in comparision (300 deaths in 300 years).

>snip<

Just to keep the record straight the number of deaths
attributable to the "Inquisition" is closer to 3000-5000
with in a 350 year time period. See below:

>From the "Catholic Dossier Magazine"

November/December 1996

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition
by Ellen Rice

"The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition," is a 1994 BBC/A&E
production (hardly Catholic organizations,jc). It is a
definite must-see for anyone who wishes to know how
historians now evaluate the Spanish Inquisition since the
opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's archives.
The special includes commentary from historians whose
studies verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the
Church was greatly fabricated.

In its brief sixty-minute presentation, "The Myth of the
Spanish Inquisition" provides only an overview of the
origins and debunking of the myths of torture and genocide.
The documentary definitely succeeds in leaving the viewer
hungry to know more. The long-held beliefs of the audience
are sufficiently weakened by the testimony of experts and
the expose of the making of the myth.

The Inquisition began in 1480. Spain was beginning a
historic reunification of Aragon and Castile. The marriage
of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile created a
unified Hispania not seen since Roman times. Afraid that
laws commanding the exile or conversion of Jews were
thwarted by conversos i.e. synagogue-going "Catholics,
" Ferdinand and Isabella commissioned an investigation or
Inquisition. They began the Inquisition hoping that
religious unity would foster political unity, and other
heads of state heralded Spain's labors for the advent of
a unified Christendom. The documentary clearly and boldly
narrates the historical context, which intimates that the
Spanish were not acting odd by their contemporary standards.

The Inquisition Myth, which Spaniards call "The Black
Legend," did not arise in 1480. It began almost 100 years
later, and exactly one year after the Protestant defeat at
the Battle of Muhlberg at the hands of Ferdinand's grandson,
the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. In 1567 a fierce propaganda
campaign began with the publication of a Protestant leaflet
penned by a supposed Inquisition victim named Montanus.
This character (Protestant of course) painted Spaniards as
barbarians who ravished women and sodomized young boys.The
propagandists soon created "hooded fiends" who tortured
their victims in horrible devices like the knife-filled
Iron Maiden (which never was used in Spain). The BBC/A&E
special plainly states a reason for the war of words: the
Protestants fought with words because they could not win
on the battlefield.

The Inquisition had a secular character, although the
crime was heresy. Inquisitors did not have to be clerics,
but they did have to be lawyers. The investigation was
rule-based and carefully kept in check. And most
significantly, historians have declared fraudulent a
supposed Inquisition document claiming the genocide of
millions of heretics.

What is documented is that 3000 to 5000 people died during
the Inquisition's 350 year history. Also documented are the
"Acts of Faith," public sentencings of heretics in town
squares. But the grand myth of thought control by sinister
fiends has been debunked by the archival evidence. The
inquisitors enjoyed a powerful position in the towns, but
it was one constantly jostled by other power brokers. In
the outlying areas, they were understaffed - in those days
it was nearly impossible for 1 or 2 inquisitors to cover
the thousand-mile territory allotted to each team. In the
outlying areas no one cared and no one spoke to them. As
the program documents, the 3,000 to 5,000 documented
executions of the Inquisition pale in comparison to the
150,000 documented witch burnings elsewhere in Europe
over the same centuries.

The approach is purely historical, and therefore does not
delve into ecclesial issues surrounding religious freedom.
But perhaps this is proper. Because the crime was heresy,
the Church is implicated, but the facts show it was a
secular event.

One facet of the Black Legend that evaporates under scrutiny
in this film is the rumor that Philip II, son of Charles V,
killed his son Don Carlos on the advisement of the aging
blind Grand Inquisitor. But without a shred of evidence,
the legend of Don Carlos has been enshrined in a glorious
opera by Verdi.

Discrediting the Black Legend brings up the sticky subject
of revisionism. Re-investigating history is only invalid
if it puts an agenda ahead of reality. The experts - once
true believers in the Inquisition myth - were not out to
do a feminist canonization of Isabella or claim that Tomas
de Torquemada was a Marxist. Henry Kamen of the Higher
Council for Scientific Research in Barcelona said on camera
that researching the Inquisition's archives "demolished
the previous image all of us (historians) had."

And the future of the Black Legend? For many it may continue
to hold more weight than reality. There is the emotional
appeal against the Church. The dissenters of today may
easily imagine Torquemada's beady eyes as a metaphor of the
Church's "dictatorial, controlling, damning" pronouncements.
The myth is also the easiest endorsement of the secular
state: "de-faith" the state and de-criminalize heresy. Who
will be the revisionists in this case? Will the many follow
Montanas' lead in rewriting history? Our 20th century crisis
of man playing God - usurping power over conception, life,
and death - leaves us with no alternative but to qualify
our demythologization of the Inquisition with a reminder:
3,000 to 5,000 victims are 3,000 to 5,000 too many.

Ellen Rice is assistant to the editor of Catholic Dossier

unquote

Jim Carew sfo










Billu
2003-07-04 19:56:53 EST

"jsm" <jsm542@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b971a682.0307031002.73c56c3a@posting.google.com...
> This post is not a defense of the "Inquisition",
> but to put it in perspective. US states far surpass
> the "Inquisition" in deaths, Tx leads in executions.
>
> Texas has executed more than a third of the prisoners put to
> death since the USA resumed executions in 1977, 217 out of 636.
> Since January 1995 it has carried out an execution on average
> every two weeks, ending the lives of more than 130 men and women.
> In the past two-and-a-half years alone, Texas has executed more
> prisoners than any other US state has done in the past 20. While
> other US states have executed fewer than one in 10 of the
> prisoners they have sentenced to death, Texas has killed a
> quarter of the approximately 850 people it has condemned to die
> since 1974. Some 455 prisoners, including the 16 named above,
> await lethal injection on the Texas conveyor belt of death.
> The above information is through the year 2000.


Actually the numbers for the Inquisition totaled about 2000 (Henry Kamen)
with the most active years averaging about 200 a year.



Tiger
2003-07-04 20:21:45 EST
stone_2003@cheerful.com (stone) wrote in
news:5cfa0b68.0307041600.1c92b507@posting.google.com:

> [If more criminals, were put to death for murder, there would be less
> criminals committing murder; it is an effective deterant.]
>

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

--
Tiger

"If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe; but
precisely because I cannot do this, I must believe."
- Soren Kierkegaard

Phar-Lap
2003-07-05 20:49:17 EST
In article <fHjNa.403055$3n5.20413@news2.central.cox.net>, "Vicki"
<*k@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> Talk about grasping at straws.
> One is the executing the law of the land that we might live in peace without
> fear.
>


But you DON'T do you?

Your problem isn't so much violence but a social, philosophical, economic,
and political structure in which violence is almost inevitable

And capital punishment is PART of that structure - not a solution to its
problems


+

Stone
2003-07-06 02:27:57 EST
g*l@aintree.com ( Phar-Lap) wrote in message news:<grandnational-0607031151280001@ppp119.dyn12.pacific.net.au>...
> In article <5cfa0b68.0307041600.1c92b507@posting.google.com>,
> stone_2003@cheerful.com (stone) wrote:
>
> > Congradulations to Texas for doing this and upholding the Bible
> > teachings on captital punishment.
> > Capital punishment (putting criminals to death for the crime of
> > murder) is a Biblical teaching in both the Old and New Testament.
> > [If more criminals, were put to death for murder, there would be less
> > criminals committing murder; it is an effective deterant.]
> > The prison system and the lawyers making appeals, are getting much
> > money from the Government, in keeping these people alive. It's all
> > about money.
> >
> >
> Like I say Christianity is a religion in which the followers of its
> claimed founder (Jesus) represent a very small and largely repressed
> minority

Correct about small minority. Most people (the ones that are not real
Christians) are going to destruction in hell. Comparatively few people
(the ones that are real Christians) are going to have eternal life in
heaven. Jesus Himself said that Christians would be a minority.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate,
and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Repressed is not the proper word. The proper word is persecuted.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is
not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also
persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Satan and his devils are controlling people, that are not Christians,
like puppets on a string, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on
who the person is. Devils have telepathic contact to the minds of men.
That is why the world will persecute Christians; Satan hates
Christians. Only real Christians have broken free from Satan's
deceptions, with God's help.

Jsm
2003-07-06 14:41:57 EST
"JCarew" <othmer@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<o9kNa.2430$Va2.1131@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>...
> JMJ
>
> "jsm" <jsm542@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:
>
> >patrick_darcy <patrickd@grandecom.net> wrote:
>
> >>jsm wrote:
>
> >>>This post is not a defense of the "Inquisition",
> >>>but to put it in perspective. US states far surpass
> >>>the "Inquisition" in deaths, Tx leads in executions.
>
> >>>Texas has executed more than a third of the prisoners put to
> >>>death since the USA resumed executions in 1977, 217 out of 636.
> >>>Since January 1995 it has carried out an execution on average
> >>>every two weeks, ending the lives of more than 130 men and women.
> >>>In the past two-and-a-half years alone, Texas has executed more
> >>>prisoners than any other US state has done in the past 20. While
> >>>other US states have executed fewer than one in 10 of the
> >>>prisoners they have sentenced to death, Texas has killed a
> >>>quarter of the approximately 850 people it has condemned to die
> >>>since 1974. Some 455 prisoners, including the 16 named above,
> >>>await lethal injection on the Texas conveyor belt of death.
> >>>The above information is through the year 2000.
>
> >>if your facts are true i would say that this
> >>just reflects the people of texas.
>
> > Yes it does. The number of deaths in Texas
> >took over about a 10 year period and the
> >"Inquisition" took 300 years.
> > The following are the top death penalty executions, the
> >"Inquisition" pales in comparision (300 deaths in 300 years).
>
> >snip<
>
> Just to keep the record straight the number of deaths
> attributable to the "Inquisition" is closer to 3000-5000
> with in a 350 year time period. See below:

Thanks for the correction, and those who died is
not anywhere near the 300,000 to millions as some would
like us to believe.

>
> From the "Catholic Dossier Magazine"
>
> November/December 1996
>
> The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition
> by Ellen Rice
>
> "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition," is a 1994 BBC/A&E
> production (hardly Catholic organizations,jc). It is a
> definite must-see for anyone who wishes to know how
> historians now evaluate the Spanish Inquisition since the
> opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's archives.
> The special includes commentary from historians whose
> studies verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the
> Church was greatly fabricated.
>
> In its brief sixty-minute presentation, "The Myth of the
> Spanish Inquisition" provides only an overview of the
> origins and debunking of the myths of torture and genocide.
> The documentary definitely succeeds in leaving the viewer
> hungry to know more. The long-held beliefs of the audience
> are sufficiently weakened by the testimony of experts and
> the expose of the making of the myth.
>
> The Inquisition began in 1480. Spain was beginning a
> historic reunification of Aragon and Castile. The marriage
> of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile created a
> unified Hispania not seen since Roman times. Afraid that
> laws commanding the exile or conversion of Jews were
> thwarted by conversos i.e. synagogue-going "Catholics,
> " Ferdinand and Isabella commissioned an investigation or
> Inquisition. They began the Inquisition hoping that
> religious unity would foster political unity, and other
> heads of state heralded Spain's labors for the advent of
> a unified Christendom. The documentary clearly and boldly
> narrates the historical context, which intimates that the
> Spanish were not acting odd by their contemporary standards.
>
> The Inquisition Myth, which Spaniards call "The Black
> Legend," did not arise in 1480. It began almost 100 years
> later, and exactly one year after the Protestant defeat at
> the Battle of Muhlberg at the hands of Ferdinand's grandson,
> the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. In 1567 a fierce propaganda
> campaign began with the publication of a Protestant leaflet
> penned by a supposed Inquisition victim named Montanus.
> This character (Protestant of course) painted Spaniards as
> barbarians who ravished women and sodomized young boys.The
> propagandists soon created "hooded fiends" who tortured
> their victims in horrible devices like the knife-filled
> Iron Maiden (which never was used in Spain). The BBC/A&E
> special plainly states a reason for the war of words: the
> Protestants fought with words because they could not win
> on the battlefield.
>
> The Inquisition had a secular character, although the
> crime was heresy. Inquisitors did not have to be clerics,
> but they did have to be lawyers. The investigation was
> rule-based and carefully kept in check. And most
> significantly, historians have declared fraudulent a
> supposed Inquisition document claiming the genocide of
> millions of heretics.
>
> What is documented is that 3000 to 5000 people died during
> the Inquisition's 350 year history. Also documented are the
> "Acts of Faith," public sentencings of heretics in town
> squares. But the grand myth of thought control by sinister
> fiends has been debunked by the archival evidence. The
> inquisitors enjoyed a powerful position in the towns, but
> it was one constantly jostled by other power brokers. In
> the outlying areas, they were understaffed - in those days
> it was nearly impossible for 1 or 2 inquisitors to cover
> the thousand-mile territory allotted to each team. In the
> outlying areas no one cared and no one spoke to them. As
> the program documents, the 3,000 to 5,000 documented
> executions of the Inquisition pale in comparison to the
> 150,000 documented witch burnings elsewhere in Europe
> over the same centuries.
>
> The approach is purely historical, and therefore does not
> delve into ecclesial issues surrounding religious freedom.
> But perhaps this is proper. Because the crime was heresy,
> the Church is implicated, but the facts show it was a
> secular event.
>
> One facet of the Black Legend that evaporates under scrutiny
> in this film is the rumor that Philip II, son of Charles V,
> killed his son Don Carlos on the advisement of the aging
> blind Grand Inquisitor. But without a shred of evidence,
> the legend of Don Carlos has been enshrined in a glorious
> opera by Verdi.
>
> Discrediting the Black Legend brings up the sticky subject
> of revisionism. Re-investigating history is only invalid
> if it puts an agenda ahead of reality. The experts - once
> true believers in the Inquisition myth - were not out to
> do a feminist canonization of Isabella or claim that Tomas
> de Torquemada was a Marxist. Henry Kamen of the Higher
> Council for Scientific Research in Barcelona said on camera
> that researching the Inquisition's archives "demolished
> the previous image all of us (historians) had."
>
> And the future of the Black Legend? For many it may continue
> to hold more weight than reality. There is the emotional
> appeal against the Church. The dissenters of today may
> easily imagine Torquemada's beady eyes as a metaphor of the
> Church's "dictatorial, controlling, damning" pronouncements.
> The myth is also the easiest endorsement of the secular
> state: "de-faith" the state and de-criminalize heresy. Who
> will be the revisionists in this case? Will the many follow
> Montanas' lead in rewriting history? Our 20th century crisis
> of man playing God - usurping power over conception, life,
> and death - leaves us with no alternative but to qualify
> our demythologization of the Inquisition with a reminder:
> 3,000 to 5,000 victims are 3,000 to 5,000 too many.
>
> Ellen Rice is assistant to the editor of Catholic Dossier
>
> unquote
>
> Jim Carew sfo
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