Bible Discussion: To Know God The Creator

To Know God The Creator
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Qolon
2003-09-28 21:30:26 EST
There is a differentiation drawn between 'a certain sorcerer, a false
prophet, a Jew named Bar -Jesus ' [Acts 13:6] and ' Jesus of Nazareth
through whom is preached to you the forgiveness of sins, and by him everyone
who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be
justified by the law of Moses." [Acts 13:38-39]

Which Jesus did you say you were acquainted with again, there are several
mentiond in the bible?


"Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
news:vnf2931shr514b@corp.supernews.com...
The mythical Jesus of the N.T. said that the O.T. was all true!

Shalom,
Bill

QOLON NOTE:
Chinese Philosophy known as Tao (Way) Te (of Virtue) Ching (Causality) by
Lao Tzu b. 604BCE is compatible with not only the Torah, but New Testament
Christianity: "But when Felix {happy, prosperous} heard these things, having
a more accurate knowledge of the Way-HODOS, he adjourned the proceedings and
said, 'When Lysias {dissolving} the commander comes down, I will make a
decision on your case." [Acts 24:27]

#65

Angel/Daemon of Haamiah
[186\ufffd-190\ufffd /Sep 29-Oct 3 /Libra /Air /8, 70, 40 = 118 (#6) / 678 (#6)
Isopsephy: Dogma - Philosophical doctrines; Rhiza - Origin; root from which
things spring such as the eye or foundations of the earth

Latin: Sublevator Alt: Mabhel {Emptiness of Things Before God}] {
1. PROTECTS AGAINST LIGHTNING & INFERNAL SPIRITS OF RELIGIOUS CULTS
2. CREED
3. INFLUENCES & PROTECTS THOSE WHO SEEK THE TRUTH}

[#23, #25, #65, #65 - Unlearned Virtuosity/ The Virtue of Simplicity]
XX. "This is that disposition in us which Moses {taken out; drawn forth}
characterised when he gave Cain {possession, or possessed} his name, a name
which being interpreted means possession, Cain {possession, or possessed}
himself being full of all folly or rather all impiety; for instead of
thinking that all possession belonged to God, he conceived that they all
belonged to himself, though he was not only not able to possess even himself
steadily, but he did not even know of what essence he consisted; but
nevertheless he placed confidence in the outward senses, as being competent
to attain the objects perceivable only by them.

Let him tell us therefore how he will be able to avoid seeing wrongly, or
being mistaken as to his hearing, or to escape even in any other of these
outward senses." [Divine Names as wisdom philosophical considerations from
'THE WAY (TAO) OF VIRTUE (TE) AND CAUSALITY (CHING)' by Chinese Wisdom
Philosopher Lao Tzu (b. 604 BCE) \ufffd 1903 Paul Carus ISBN 0-312-26109-8; Angel
Names exegesis provided by Qolon, \ufffd Copyright 17 August, 2003, All Rights
reserved.]

The vMeme/Moment Mathematical/Chronological {ie. Autonomous, Isonomic and
Taxonomic} Kabbalistic model may be considered as a virtual universe or lens
by which events are viewed as occurring within a definite time space. Where
the probability P of some event E (denoted P(E)) is defined with respect to
a "universe" {ie. an implied chronological universe: Telos (122J3W1D as
6,000) = Arch (0) + c\ufffd} in the case where the sample space is finite or
countably infinite, a probability function can also be defined by its values
on the elementary events {e1}, {e2},... where S = {e1,e2,...} as a sample
space S of all possible elementary events {ie. hemi-sphere sampled
chronological universe of action: 3(3\ufffd+1)/2 (15 days) ... 9(9\ufffd+1/2 = (396
days)} in such a way that P must satisfy any probability axioms as rules of
coherence and quantification (viz. Jose Bernardo & Adrian Smith), any
implied epistemological hermeneutic usage given by language and number as
the Kabbalistic empirical-inductive and meta-physical deductive paradigm.

"Stoicism was based upon a cosmological theory and a geo-centric system of
physics; to its support more than to any other single cause was due to the
long reign of [an astrological based Chaldean/Hermetic encyclical
architecture: {

6,000 years as 'telos' 122J3W1D = 'arch' 0J0W0D + c\ufffd

A mathematical {cosmological, ontological, epistemological, christological}
conception of soul reflecting the Protestant Scholastic view of the
Greek/Latin term 'TELOS'

{Nature contains Nature - Remember Sabbath? as 3W1D - Adam)
{Nature rejoices in its nature - Honor Parents as 26J5W - Noah}
{Nature surmounts nature - Intellect not Murder as 40J4W - Abraham}
{Nature amended in its nature - Avoiding spiritual adultry as 50J - Moses}
{Act of nature - Stealing from 'YHWH' as 72J + 3(3\ufffd+1)/2 {2W1D) = 457
BCE - Zerubabbel}
{Form of nature - False Witness to Forma Corporis - Jesus of Nazareth

70 weeks {490 years} cryptic Messianic prophecy = 33CE

30CE - "Messiah shall be cut off" [Daniel 9:26]

72J + 10(10\ufffd+1)/2 = 33CE

}
{Engendering nature - Coveting Truth - Y2K, Jihad and Jubilee2000 the
virtues of Friday/Sunday Sacred hymeneal hermetic mysticism/occultism}

122J3W1D as 6,000 years = Saturday 1 January, 2000

n(n\ufffd+1)/2 or (n^3+n)/2 = #sum

Principles of democratic autonomy are sustained by a 369 day
chronological/mathematical matrix as the Merkabah (ie. Kabbalistic) mystical
(transcendent/metaphysical) foundation for a perennial solar/lunar {ie.
9(9\ufffd+1)/2 (369) - 3(3\ufffd+1)/2 (15) = 354 lunar cycle} philosophy uniting
reason and faith and the mechanism for {#51, #66, #77, #37 - Non-Deeming
Action/ Administration of Government}.

{Total Solar eclipse 11 Aug, 1999}
Rosh Hashanah (Head of Year/New Moon) 1 Tishri 5760 = 11-12 Sept, 1999 with
Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) = 20 Sept, 1999
+
{6,000 years as Saturday 1st January, 2000 + Topical Year/Day Solar eclipse
25 December, 2000 + 6 days ...}
+
Rosh Hashanah (Head of Year/New Moon) {PE (#80) - End of Year: 29 Elul 5761}
Mon 17 Sept, 2001 + CHAD: #1 {TSADE (#90) - 1st Rosh Hashanah} Tues 18 Sept,
2001/ 1 Tishri, 5762; #2 {QOPH (#100) - 2nd Rosh Hashanah} Wed 19 Sept,
2001/ 2 Tishri, 5762; #3 {RESH (#200)}; #4 {SHIN (#300); #5 {TAU (#400)}
with Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) = September 27, 2001
=
{385 days} 29 Sept, 2000 + {353 days} 17 Sept, 2001 + {354 days} 6 Sept,
2002 = 1092 days
OR
{353 days} 17 Sept, 2001 + {354 days} 6 Sept, 2002 + {385 days} 26 Sept,
2003) = 1092 days
}].

If I may also share the most excellent words of Rabbi Laibl Wolf as one of
Australia's foremost Rabbinical authorities on Kabbalah and its
identification of three dimensions of creation: "Olam, Zeman and Nefesh i.e.
World (space), Time (change), and Soul (consciousness). These are the three
elements that constitute the whole reality of the world - including the
spiritual realms.

Each one of these has its distinctive flow. The soul 'flows' into our
individual being through the bio-machinery of the brain. From the brain the
spiritual energy distributes to the various parts of the body. The soul is
the source of our consciousness - normal and higher consciousness. It is the
source of our personality and is the only real aspect of a human being. The
body not only disintegrates in time but over a decade, not one cell of the
body, indeed not one single atom, is the same as it was a decade earlier.
Yet our personality subsists as new cells are formed and the 'matter' of our
being continues to evolve. Your soul is the real 'you'.

The flow of space, in Kabbalah, derives from the 'holy of holies' in
Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount. Since the destruction of the Temple, the
source of space resides in each one of our inner selves. Mass and energy are
interchangeable. Space derives ultimately from consciousness -soul.

So also does time flow from a source. The source is Rosh HaShannah - the
'head' of the year. This beginning is the first day of the Hebrew month of
Tishrei (this year on 26th September at night). On this fateful night, the
spiritual source of the coming year is 'conceived in G-d's womb' and begins
its inexorable flow for the remainder of the 12 months. The nature of this
flow is to a large extent determined by our own choices, behaviours, and
commitments. That is why the Jewish New Year is not celebrated with
streamers, fireworks, partying, or 'drinkathons'. Rather, Rosh HaShannah is
a time of introspection, meditation, prayer, commitment, as well as festive
meals that signal the confidence and joy in the coming flow of time.

May your World be imbued in the coming year with higher consciousness -
Soul, and may each day - Time - become a vehicle for your higher
contribution as a co-creator of an unfinished universe." [Weekly Meditations
26 September, 2003, Courtesy Rabbi Laibl Wolf, <http://www.laiblwolf.com>]

- Qolon
- <http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/kabbalah/patent.html#AXIOM4>





DW Suiter
2003-09-29 07:16:43 EST
Who has taught you all the nonsense you present Bill?

There are tons of references in historical documents to a man known as Jesus
of Nazareth. Yet you have chosen to say he was merely a mythical figure,
why? On what do you base your belief?

Perhaps it is a suppressed hatred of God that causes you to grasp for
anything in order to support your belief.

In reality "Jesus" is a title, not a name. Many people have used this name
or it's other forms such as Messiah, or Savior. The man known as "Jesus of
Nazareth was merely one of many who were/are the Sons/creations of God in
mind and spirit.

However, there is only one way to prove these matters and you have chosen to
not prove the matter. But others have. They know the truth of the matter.
You want proof but will not follow the only way to know the truth which
proves the matters. So you remain at a standstill, rejecting and denying
evidence.

How about offering some evidence Jesus of Nazareth did not exist? Some real
hard evidence not someone's belief or opinion. And to top that, how about
offering proof he did not exist?

Arguing mere belief and mere opinion is inanity. It never proves anything
except the foolishness of the exercise.

DW Suiter
Son of God

"Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
news:vnf2931shr514b@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "HoundDog" <hounddog111@elvis.com> wrote in message
> news:987f5b85.0309281649.494a6a5@posting.google.com...
> > IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in message
> news:<IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com>...
> > > To Know God the Creator
> > >
> > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend is the
> > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He provides,
> > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our peace as
we
> > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired and
> > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship with Him
> and
> > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the Bible.
This
> > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred, violence and
> > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able to
save
> > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and purpose
for
> He
> > > has become our peace.
> > >
> > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him I
> > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door of your
> > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you forever
> assuring
> > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
relationship
> > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never leave
> you
> > > nor forsake you.
> > >
> >
> > Good post. Followin Jesus be better than followin all dat stuff in de
OT.
> >
> > HD
>
> The mythical Jesus of the N.T. said that the O.T. was all true!
>
> Shalom,
> Bill
>
>



David Jensen
2003-09-29 09:16:15 EST
In alt.talk.creationism, "DW Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in
<*5@corp.supernews.com>:

>Who has taught you all the nonsense you present Bill?
>
>There are tons of references in historical documents to a man known as Jesus
>of Nazareth. Yet you have chosen to say he was merely a mythical figure,
>why? On what do you base your belief?
>
>Perhaps it is a suppressed hatred of God that causes you to grasp for
>anything in order to support your belief.
>
>In reality "Jesus" is a title, not a name. Many people have used this name
>or it's other forms such as Messiah, or Savior. The man known as "Jesus of
>Nazareth was merely one of many who were/are the Sons/creations of God in
>mind and spirit.

Where did you learn that "Jesus" was a title? I've never seen that
claimed before. I am aware that "Christ" is a title, but I've always
understood Jesus to be the same name as Joshua.

>However, there is only one way to prove these matters and you have chosen to
>not prove the matter. But others have. They know the truth of the matter.
>You want proof but will not follow the only way to know the truth which
>proves the matters. So you remain at a standstill, rejecting and denying
>evidence.
>
>How about offering some evidence Jesus of Nazareth did not exist? Some real
>hard evidence not someone's belief or opinion. And to top that, how about
>offering proof he did not exist?
>
>Arguing mere belief and mere opinion is inanity. It never proves anything
>except the foolishness of the exercise.
>
>DW Suiter
>Son of God


Bill Litchfield
2003-09-29 13:54:34 EST

"DW Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
news:vng8lf1aj9t855@corp.supernews.com...
> Who has taught you all the nonsense you present Bill?
>
> There are tons of references in historical documents to a man known as
Jesus
> of Nazareth. Yet you have chosen to say he was merely a mythical figure,
> why? On what do you base your belief?

I don't believe that you read my post carefully, Donald. I said that the
Jesus Christ as depicted in the 4 gospels and Acts is a myth and I stand by
that. However, there was a real flesh and blood Jesus of Nazareth, (who was
probably born and raised in Galilee), and he was revered by many different
Jesus movements in the early lst century as a great teacher.
Now, search as you might Donald, I seriously doubt that you can find even
one historical source *contemporary* to the alleged time of the biblical
Jesus. Now, I'm guessing that you exaggerate when you say there are *tons*
of historical references to the biblical Jesus. If not, then you wouldn't
mind providing at least two would you? Try to find something that isn't
several decades after the alleged time and isn't second-hand derivative
accounts.
>
> Perhaps it is a suppressed hatred of God that causes you to grasp for
> anything in order to support your belief.

No, I've no hatred for God at all, Donald. However, the god in the Bible is
not the true Diety.
>
> In reality "Jesus" is a title, not a name. Many people have used this name
> or it's other forms such as Messiah, or Savior. The man known as "Jesus of
> Nazareth was merely one of many who were/are the Sons/creations of God in
> mind and spirit.
>
> However, there is only one way to prove these matters and you have chosen
to
> not prove the matter. But others have. They know the truth of the matter.
> You want proof but will not follow the only way to know the truth which
> proves the matters. So you remain at a standstill, rejecting and denying
> evidence.
>
> How about offering some evidence Jesus of Nazareth did not exist? Some
real
> hard evidence not someone's belief or opinion. And to top that, how about
> offering proof he did not exist?

See my answer above. Also, look up the "Negative Evidence Principle." It's
far too long for me to present it here. If you are unable to locate it, I
will provide it in a separate post.

Shalom,
Bill

>
> Arguing mere belief and mere opinion is inanity. It never proves anything
> except the foolishness of the exercise.
>
> DW Suiter
> Son of God
>
> "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> news:vnf2931shr514b@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "HoundDog" <hounddog111@elvis.com> wrote in message
> > news:987f5b85.0309281649.494a6a5@posting.google.com...
> > > IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in message
> > news:<IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com>...
> > > > To Know God the Creator
> > > >
> > > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend is
the
> > > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He
provides,
> > > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our peace as
> we
> > > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired and
> > > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship with
Him
> > and
> > > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the Bible.
> This
> > > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred, violence
and
> > > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able to
> save
> > > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and purpose
> for
> > He
> > > > has become our peace.
> > > >
> > > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him I
> > > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door of
your
> > > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you forever
> > assuring
> > > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
> relationship
> > > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never
leave
> > you
> > > > nor forsake you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Good post. Followin Jesus be better than followin all dat stuff in de
> OT.
> > >
> > > HD
> >
> > The mythical Jesus of the N.T. said that the O.T. was all true!
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Bill
> >
> >
>
>



Didymos
2003-09-29 18:02:56 EST

"Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
news:vnf04snlvn2h58@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Didymos" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:IKGdb.7771$NX3.2018@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> > news:vne8kvd7mvl09b@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
> > > news:IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com...
> > > > To Know God the Creator
> > > >
> > > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend is
the
> > > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He
provides,
> > > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our peace as
> we
> > > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired and
> > > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship with
Him
> > and
> > > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the Bible.
> This
> > > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred, violence
and
> > > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able to
> save
> > > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and purpose
> for
> > He
> > > > has become our peace.
> > > >
> > > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him I
> > > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door of
your
> > > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you forever
> > assuring
> > > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
> relationship
> > > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never
leave
> > you
> > > > nor forsake you.
> > > >
> > > > Believer, you can take great encouragement and comfort in Him who
has
> > > > created all things and has a plan for your life into eternity.
> > >
> > > Until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Jesus depicted
in
> > the
> > > 4 gospels and Acts actually existed, your drivel will not convince me
or
> > > millions of others. C'mon IKHDY, show us indisputable proof!
> > >
> > > Shalom,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > Can anyone prove the existence of any human being in the first century
> > beyond a reasonable doubt? By that criterium you just did away with
most
> of
> > history. History, at best, can be partially reconstructed. Events from
> the
> > past can never be recreated. Can you, sir, show us "indisputable proof"
> > that anyone from the first century existed?
>
> Ummm...Don't Roman records verify the existence of Herod the Great, and
his
> sons who also ruled parts of Palestine? Pontius Pilate is in those records
> also. If he had been mentioned in the Bible only, I would have cause to
> doubt his existence.
>
> Shalom,
> Bill
> >
>
Ummm, do they really now? Or are you making certain presumptions here?
What "Roman records" might those be, precisely? Would these be archival
records maintained by the Roman government, thus primary sources? Or would
they be written a generation or two or three or four or ten after the fact,
and thus secondary sources? How reliable are the authors? Who are the
authors, if you know? Where are the manuscripts located? How old are the
manuscripts? Are they written in Greek or Latin? Are they unicals or
miniscules? What scribal hand are these "records" composed in?

How certain are you that those "Roman records" that "verify the existence of
Herod the Great, and his sons who also ruled parts of Palestine" exist? Was
there a place called "Palestine" in the first century? Do you perhaps refer
to the histories by Tacitus or Suetonius? Perhaps Pliny the Elder who wrote
of Judea in his "Natural History"? Or are you actually relying on the
"Antiquities of the Jews" and/or the "Jewish Wars" by Flavius Josephus?
And, if so, is that actually a "Roman record"? By what definition? And if
Josephus is accurate concerning Pilate, why is he less accurate when he
refers to early Christians?

What Roman records is Pilate described in? (I am cognizant of the find at
Caesarea Maritima in 1962 by the Italian team, are you?) What rank did
Pilate hold in Judea? What order was Pilate a member of? What do we really
know about Pilate? I believe you will find that the majority of the
information currently extant about Pilate is from 2nd century Christian
manuscripts. But, please, do prove me wrong.

And how do the records you referred to constitute "indisputable proof" and
"evidence beyond a reasonable doubt"?

Quite honestly, I am just asking. I believe your sources may not be a solid
as you wish to believe.


Bill Litchfield
2003-09-29 19:33:21 EST

"Didymos" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:k_1eb.8103$RW4.934@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> news:vnf04snlvn2h58@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Didymos" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:IKGdb.7771$NX3.2018@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vne8kvd7mvl09b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com...
> > > > > To Know God the Creator
> > > > >
> > > > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend is
> the
> > > > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He
> provides,
> > > > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our peace
as
> > we
> > > > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired
and
> > > > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship with
> Him
> > > and
> > > > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the Bible.
> > This
> > > > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred, violence
> and
> > > > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able to
> > save
> > > > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and
purpose
> > for
> > > He
> > > > > has become our peace.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him I
> > > > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door of
> your
> > > > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you forever
> > > assuring
> > > > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
> > relationship
> > > > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never
> leave
> > > you
> > > > > nor forsake you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Believer, you can take great encouragement and comfort in Him who
> has
> > > > > created all things and has a plan for your life into eternity.
> > > >
> > > > Until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Jesus
depicted
> in
> > > the
> > > > 4 gospels and Acts actually existed, your drivel will not convince
me
> or
> > > > millions of others. C'mon IKHDY, show us indisputable proof!
> > > >
> > > > Shalom,
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Can anyone prove the existence of any human being in the first century
> > > beyond a reasonable doubt? By that criterium you just did away with
> most
> > of
> > > history. History, at best, can be partially reconstructed. Events
from
> > the
> > > past can never be recreated. Can you, sir, show us "indisputable
proof"
> > > that anyone from the first century existed?
> >
> > Ummm...Don't Roman records verify the existence of Herod the Great, and
> his
> > sons who also ruled parts of Palestine? Pontius Pilate is in those
records
> > also. If he had been mentioned in the Bible only, I would have cause to
> > doubt his existence.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Bill
> > >
> >
> Ummm, do they really now? Or are you making certain presumptions here?
> What "Roman records" might those be, precisely? Would these be archival
> records maintained by the Roman government, thus primary sources? Or
would
> they be written a generation or two or three or four or ten after the
fact,
> and thus secondary sources? How reliable are the authors? Who are the
> authors, if you know? Where are the manuscripts located? How old are the
> manuscripts? Are they written in Greek or Latin? Are they unicals or
> miniscules? What scribal hand are these "records" composed in?
>
> How certain are you that those "Roman records" that "verify the existence
of
> Herod the Great, and his sons who also ruled parts of Palestine" exist?
Was
> there a place called "Palestine" in the first century? Do you perhaps
refer
> to the histories by Tacitus or Suetonius? Perhaps Pliny the Elder who
wrote
> of Judea in his "Natural History"? Or are you actually relying on the
> "Antiquities of the Jews" and/or the "Jewish Wars" by Flavius Josephus?
> And, if so, is that actually a "Roman record"? By what definition? And
if
> Josephus is accurate concerning Pilate, why is he less accurate when he
> refers to early Christians?
>
> What Roman records is Pilate described in? (I am cognizant of the find at
> Caesarea Maritima in 1962 by the Italian team, are you?) What rank did
> Pilate hold in Judea? What order was Pilate a member of? What do we
really
> know about Pilate? I believe you will find that the majority of the
> information currently extant about Pilate is from 2nd century Christian
> manuscripts. But, please, do prove me wrong.
>
> And how do the records you referred to constitute "indisputable proof" and
> "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt"?
>
> Quite honestly, I am just asking. I believe your sources may not be a
solid
> as you wish to believe.

You are probably correct about the sources. Obviously, you know far more
about this issue than I do, and I bow to your superior knowledge. However,
no one to date has been able to provide any extrabiblical verification that
the Jesus of the 4 gospels and Acts existed as he is portrayed in those
writings. If anyone has such information, it has not been brought to my
attention.

Shalom,
Bill
>



Didymos
2003-09-29 20:25:47 EST

"Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
news:vnhga5i4lk6pe1@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Didymos" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:k_1eb.8103$RW4.934@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> > news:vnf04snlvn2h58@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Didymos" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:IKGdb.7771$NX3.2018@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:vne8kvd7mvl09b@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com...
> > > > > > To Know God the Creator
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend
is
> > the
> > > > > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He
> > provides,
> > > > > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our
peace
> as
> > > we
> > > > > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired
> and
> > > > > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship
with
> > Him
> > > > and
> > > > > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the
Bible.
> > > This
> > > > > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred,
violence
> > and
> > > > > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able
to
> > > save
> > > > > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and
> purpose
> > > for
> > > > He
> > > > > > has become our peace.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him
I
> > > > > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door
of
> > your
> > > > > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you
forever
> > > > assuring
> > > > > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
> > > relationship
> > > > > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never
> > leave
> > > > you
> > > > > > nor forsake you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Believer, you can take great encouragement and comfort in Him
who
> > has
> > > > > > created all things and has a plan for your life into eternity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Jesus
> depicted
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > 4 gospels and Acts actually existed, your drivel will not convince
> me
> > or
> > > > > millions of others. C'mon IKHDY, show us indisputable proof!
> > > > >
> > > > > Shalom,
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Can anyone prove the existence of any human being in the first
century
> > > > beyond a reasonable doubt? By that criterium you just did away with
> > most
> > > of
> > > > history. History, at best, can be partially reconstructed. Events
> from
> > > the
> > > > past can never be recreated. Can you, sir, show us "indisputable
> proof"
> > > > that anyone from the first century existed?
> > >
> > > Ummm...Don't Roman records verify the existence of Herod the Great,
and
> > his
> > > sons who also ruled parts of Palestine? Pontius Pilate is in those
> records
> > > also. If he had been mentioned in the Bible only, I would have cause
to
> > > doubt his existence.
> > >
> > > Shalom,
> > > Bill
> > > >
> > >
> > Ummm, do they really now? Or are you making certain presumptions here?
> > What "Roman records" might those be, precisely? Would these be archival
> > records maintained by the Roman government, thus primary sources? Or
> would
> > they be written a generation or two or three or four or ten after the
> fact,
> > and thus secondary sources? How reliable are the authors? Who are the
> > authors, if you know? Where are the manuscripts located? How old are
the
> > manuscripts? Are they written in Greek or Latin? Are they unicals or
> > miniscules? What scribal hand are these "records" composed in?
> >
> > How certain are you that those "Roman records" that "verify the
existence
> of
> > Herod the Great, and his sons who also ruled parts of Palestine" exist?
> Was
> > there a place called "Palestine" in the first century? Do you perhaps
> refer
> > to the histories by Tacitus or Suetonius? Perhaps Pliny the Elder who
> wrote
> > of Judea in his "Natural History"? Or are you actually relying on the
> > "Antiquities of the Jews" and/or the "Jewish Wars" by Flavius Josephus?
> > And, if so, is that actually a "Roman record"? By what definition? And
> if
> > Josephus is accurate concerning Pilate, why is he less accurate when he
> > refers to early Christians?
> >
> > What Roman records is Pilate described in? (I am cognizant of the find
at
> > Caesarea Maritima in 1962 by the Italian team, are you?) What rank did
> > Pilate hold in Judea? What order was Pilate a member of? What do we
> really
> > know about Pilate? I believe you will find that the majority of the
> > information currently extant about Pilate is from 2nd century Christian
> > manuscripts. But, please, do prove me wrong.
> >
> > And how do the records you referred to constitute "indisputable proof"
and
> > "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt"?
> >
> > Quite honestly, I am just asking. I believe your sources may not be a
> solid
> > as you wish to believe.
>
> You are probably correct about the sources. Obviously, you know far more
> about this issue than I do, and I bow to your superior knowledge. However,
> no one to date has been able to provide any extrabiblical verification
that
> the Jesus of the 4 gospels and Acts existed as he is portrayed in those
> writings. If anyone has such information, it has not been brought to my
> attention.
>
> Shalom,
> Bill
> >
My point here is merely to demonstrate that the practice of ancient history
is not hard science. Only the careful balance of a precious few sources is
the basis of all we know, or perhaps merely believe is more accurate, about
the ancient world. And much of that knowledge can be turned on its head by
a single new find.

I object to the Christian manuscripts being arbitrarily dismissed. Even the
most improbable ancient tale can tell us something about the people who
recorded and preserved it. For that reason, every manuscript from antiquity
is precious, and none can be dismissed as worthless.

In my opinion, the manuscripts of the various New Testament books and the
noncanon gospels and apochrypha are of no more historical value than any
pagan manuscript or record. But the Christian documents are of no less
historical value either. The miracles described in the gospels do not
negate the historical value of the gospels any more nor any less than the
miraculous events described by Livy and Herodotus negate the historical
value of their books. My honest appraisal of the historical evidence is
that a man named Jesus probably lived in Galilee during the first third of
the first century, and this man was conflated into the Christ of
Christianity. But then new evidence of the right type would be capable of
changing my mind.

But none of that is to assert that the gospels prove the divinity of Jesus
or that he was the Christ or the saviour or the son of God or God. Those
are theological constructs which history and archaeology can neither prove
nor disprove because those notions are beyond the ken of history and
archaeology. The kind of "history" practiced by McDowell, Stobel, and our
other fundamentalist brethern is not history. It is trying fit the evidence
to a set of preconceived theological notions, and that is not history, that
is nonsense.




DW Suiter
2003-09-30 05:41:08 EST
"Jesus" is merely an English translation of "Y'shua" the Hebrew word.
"Christ" is a Greek word. Both describe a type of person commonly known as
Messiah or Savior.

"Jesus of Nazareth" addresses a person who is not Jesus from "somewhere
else." There were many others in his day using this same title. "The Son of
God" is a title depicting a particular type of person.

Any person saved by God becomes this savior. It is an act of transformation
into what saves man; a new creation by God.

It was the Word from God that came to the man, now known as Jesus of
Nazareth, that created the new creation in him, into which he was
transformed, in mind and spirit. He became the Christ as he became "Jesus."
He was named by God as a Son of God. However, the people who followed the
way he taught also were named by God as the Son of God and also possessed
the same mind and spirit of Christ and "Jesus." In this way, the Christ and
Jesus returned.

This man was also called the "second Adam" which is the second time God
created man in the image God possesses for man.

God "saves" mankind from the mind and spirit created in him by fellow man.
The "Savior" is the new mind and spirit that creates a new person, being the
"new creation" scripture speaks of. Man is transformed into this new
creation and "is" this new creation. Hence, the name or title Savior applies
to this person. Such was the man known as Jesus of Nazareth. He received the
"Holy Spirit from God without which man is dead spiritually. Though a son he
had to learn obedience to what he was taught by God and in this was saved
from death. The death being the death of the Holy Spirit in mankind which
was given to Adam at first; the same spirit Adam lost and separated from
falling into spiritual death.

The true Messiah of God is not a physical being but a spiritual being,
specifically, the spiritual creation of God. God is Spirit and the creation
of God in the image of God is spirit. Spirit is the substance in-spired in
the mind.

DW Suiter
Son of God

"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:i1cgnvs9bc3cn7eln5n70l836h437pnuj9@4ax.com...
> In alt.talk.creationism, "DW Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in
> <vng8lf1aj9t855@corp.supernews.com>:
>
> >Who has taught you all the nonsense you present Bill?
> >
> >There are tons of references in historical documents to a man known as
Jesus
> >of Nazareth. Yet you have chosen to say he was merely a mythical figure,
> >why? On what do you base your belief?
> >
> >Perhaps it is a suppressed hatred of God that causes you to grasp for
> >anything in order to support your belief.
> >
> >In reality "Jesus" is a title, not a name. Many people have used this
name
> >or it's other forms such as Messiah, or Savior. The man known as "Jesus
of
> >Nazareth was merely one of many who were/are the Sons/creations of God in
> >mind and spirit.
>
> Where did you learn that "Jesus" was a title? I've never seen that
> claimed before. I am aware that "Christ" is a title, but I've always
> understood Jesus to be the same name as Joshua.
>
> >However, there is only one way to prove these matters and you have chosen
to
> >not prove the matter. But others have. They know the truth of the matter.
> >You want proof but will not follow the only way to know the truth which
> >proves the matters. So you remain at a standstill, rejecting and denying
> >evidence.
> >
> >How about offering some evidence Jesus of Nazareth did not exist? Some
real
> >hard evidence not someone's belief or opinion. And to top that, how about
> >offering proof he did not exist?
> >
> >Arguing mere belief and mere opinion is inanity. It never proves anything
> >except the foolishness of the exercise.
> >
> >DW Suiter
> >Son of God
>



DW Suiter
2003-09-30 06:01:37 EST
It is not possible to prove non-existence. However existence may be proved.
There were many, I'm sure, who rejected the theory of "bacteria" in the air
in the beginning. None could prove the non-existence of bacteria but
eventually by use of a certain way, the microscope, the existence was
proven.

This principle applies to many existing entities. They can only be proved to
exist by use of a certain way.

The existence of God can only be proved by following a certain way. In all
instances, it is the direct experience with the existing reality that
proves the existence of the reality.

To "prove" the existence of a man known as Jesus of Nazareth, and to know
who and what he was, requires the knowledge of truth of the matter. Truth,
is any word accurately portraying existing reality.

Because of the nature of God, being it is impossible for God to lie, the
Word of God is accepted as truth. However, the Word of God is the Word God
speaks and not the word man says He spoke.

Having structured life by use of the highest and best principles to be
found, it is impossible to violate any of these principles because to
violate one of the principles would be to lose the life structured by these
principles. This is why it is impossible for God to lie.

It is also why the early and true "Christians" accepted physical torture and
physical death rather than to denounce God. They knew God and the life from
God according to the principles of God. It is acceptable, a single person
willingly becomes a martyr based on his beliefs alone. But not the many
people who were the true Christians. They would not accept physical death
unless they were sure of what they were doing.

They "knew" God as Jesus of Nazareth "knew" God; by direct experience and
not by belief in religious teachings.
To them, God was proven to exist.

This is the only way you can prove whether God exists or not, Bill. It the
same for every person who desires "proof" of whether God exists or not. The
reality of God must be experienced, not the effects of the acts of God.
Jesus of Nazareth was the creation of God, hence the result of an act of
God. God cannot be known even by being with this man as some were. No, they
had to follow the way he taught in order to "know" the truth. They had to
experience the reality of God and had to be taught truth by God in this
experience. Their word does not prove God exists. Their word is only
testimony, hence "testaments." Erroneously, religionists attempt to prove
God exists by using the testaments of others. This is not possible.

Also, your attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God or Jesus of
Nazareth by using testaments of others or writings of others is vanity. It
will never work.

I know God in the reality of God. But, all you are able to know is I have
said something. I cannot prove to you God exists no more than Jesus of
Nazareth could prove God exists. However, I will tell you as he did, "if"
you follow the way to know and to prove, "then" you will know the truth of
the matter and this truth will set you free from mere belief in whatsoever
you believe concerning God.

DW Suiter
Son of God

"Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
news:vngu7n6d63jc45@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "DW Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
> news:vng8lf1aj9t855@corp.supernews.com...
> > Who has taught you all the nonsense you present Bill?
> >
> > There are tons of references in historical documents to a man known as
> Jesus
> > of Nazareth. Yet you have chosen to say he was merely a mythical figure,
> > why? On what do you base your belief?
>
> I don't believe that you read my post carefully, Donald. I said that the
> Jesus Christ as depicted in the 4 gospels and Acts is a myth and I stand
by
> that. However, there was a real flesh and blood Jesus of Nazareth, (who
was
> probably born and raised in Galilee), and he was revered by many different
> Jesus movements in the early lst century as a great teacher.
> Now, search as you might Donald, I seriously doubt that you can find even
> one historical source *contemporary* to the alleged time of the biblical
> Jesus. Now, I'm guessing that you exaggerate when you say there are *tons*
> of historical references to the biblical Jesus. If not, then you wouldn't
> mind providing at least two would you? Try to find something that isn't
> several decades after the alleged time and isn't second-hand derivative
> accounts.
> >
> > Perhaps it is a suppressed hatred of God that causes you to grasp for
> > anything in order to support your belief.
>
> No, I've no hatred for God at all, Donald. However, the god in the Bible
is
> not the true Diety.
> >
> > In reality "Jesus" is a title, not a name. Many people have used this
name
> > or it's other forms such as Messiah, or Savior. The man known as "Jesus
of
> > Nazareth was merely one of many who were/are the Sons/creations of God
in
> > mind and spirit.
> >
> > However, there is only one way to prove these matters and you have
chosen
> to
> > not prove the matter. But others have. They know the truth of the
matter.
> > You want proof but will not follow the only way to know the truth which
> > proves the matters. So you remain at a standstill, rejecting and denying
> > evidence.
> >
> > How about offering some evidence Jesus of Nazareth did not exist? Some
> real
> > hard evidence not someone's belief or opinion. And to top that, how
about
> > offering proof he did not exist?
>
> See my answer above. Also, look up the "Negative Evidence Principle." It's
> far too long for me to present it here. If you are unable to locate it, I
> will provide it in a separate post.
>
> Shalom,
> Bill
>
> >
> > Arguing mere belief and mere opinion is inanity. It never proves
anything
> > except the foolishness of the exercise.
> >
> > DW Suiter
> > Son of God
> >
> > "Bill Litchfield" <jomarie@hscis.net> wrote in message
> > news:vnf2931shr514b@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "HoundDog" <hounddog111@elvis.com> wrote in message
> > > news:987f5b85.0309281649.494a6a5@posting.google.com...
> > > > IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote in message
> > > news:<IknowHim-2809030932090001@pm8-26.kalama.com>...
> > > > > To Know God the Creator
> > > > >
> > > > > Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as a personal saviour and friend is
> the
> > > > > greatest of priviledges a person can have in this world. He
> provides,
> > > > > protects, encourages, comforts, enlightens, and becomes our peace
as
> > we
> > > > > walk with Him and talk with Him through His wonderful, inspired
and
> > > > > truthful word, the Bible. He assures us of our relationship with
> Him
> > > and
> > > > > our eternal destination to be with Him through His word the Bible.
> > This
> > > > > truely is a great comfort in a world filled with hatred, violence
> and
> > > > > hopelessness as we see around us. Just knowing that He is able to
> > save
> > > > > us, both now and in the age to come, fills us with hope and
purpose
> > for
> > > He
> > > > > has become our peace.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you , reader, do not have this sweet assurance of knowing Him I
> > > > > encourage you to seek Him, listening for His knock on the door of
> your
> > > > > soul. He will indeed come in unto you and abide with you forever
> > > assuring
> > > > > you that you are His and He is yours. No one can take this
> > relationship
> > > > > from you for He who holds you in the palm of His hand will never
> leave
> > > you
> > > > > nor forsake you.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good post. Followin Jesus be better than followin all dat stuff in
de
> > OT.
> > > >
> > > > HD
> > >
> > > The mythical Jesus of the N.T. said that the O.T. was all true!
> > >
> > > Shalom,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>



David Jensen
2003-09-30 10:21:24 EST
In alt.talk.creationism, which is where the followup has been set to "DW
Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in
<*3@corp.supernews.com>:

>It is not possible to prove non-existence. However existence may be proved.

Bacteria have been shown to exist. God has not.
...
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