Bible Discussion: The Way Of The Pentateuch: Stoning Sentences

The Way Of The Pentateuch: Stoning Sentences
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DW Suiter
2003-09-25 07:33:00 EST
You have written in regards to what you believe. It is unfortunate you do
not know the truth of these matters.

In ignorance you lump Christianity with the religions. Aside and apart from
the religion of Christianity is true Christianity.

True "Christians" either know or shall learn the truth concerning the
matters of God. In regards to "stoning;"

A "stone" refers to a teaching or a principle. To "stone" a person is to use
a word or principle as a weapon against a person. To use stones to "stone to
death" is the act of killing off a belief in a person.

However, religionists in their ignorance and separation from God, and being
carnally minded, interpret the scriptures in a literal sense, or a physical
sense. Consequently the brutalities and atrocities. And unfortunately,
others such as atheists have also believed the garbage of the religionists
in regards to God.

A word of advice; do not judge God by religious teachings nor the
religionists interpretation and translation of scriptures. Any word or act
attributed to God that is not based and founded on love and good will is not
of God, but of man and his false religious doctrines.

DW Suiter
So of God

"Thales" <Thales_Anaximander@msn.com> wrote in message
news:528e05a5.0309250350.238dda81@posting.google.com...
> Let us not forget that Islam, as a Arab spin-of of Judaism, prescribed
> the same harsh, cruel and unusual punishments s the barbaic laws of
> the Pentateuch. Is it any wonder that the American, Thomas Jefferson,
> called Judaism a depraved religion. Of course, Christianity only has
> the lake of fire and eternal torments for being "incorrect".
>
> The Sharia or Islamic Law is largely in the same tenor as the laws of
> the Pentateuch. The Sanhedrin was the court that decided the stoniong
> sentences in Judaism. Judaism was just as barbaric as Islam.
>
> >"The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> attention
> >it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of the
> >government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> Muslim
> >society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
>
> The US also has plenty of religious fundamnentalists in government
> that poison the sense of justice and equality.
>
> The world will be a much better place when superstitions such as
> Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity are all things of our
> ignorant past. It is time for humanity's ignorant childhood to come
> to an end. All the Gods are murderers and fools.
>
> "In the beginning, cold, cruel, intolerant and power-hungry men
> created God in their own image"
>
> ================================================
> MSNBC NEWS
>
> The fate of Amina Lawal, shown here in court in August, could be
> decided Thursday.
>
> Stoning sentence
> for Nigerian mom
> raises global issues
>
> Killings under Islamic law
> are not unusual, experts say
>
> By Kari Huus
> MSNBC
>
>
>
> Sept. 24 - Under the glare of the international spotlight, a
> court in Nigeria on Thursday is expected to decide the fate of Amina
> Lawal, a young mother sentenced to death by stoning. After an 18-month
> court battle, this is her final chance to appeal for leniency under a
> harsh interpretation of Islamic law. There are good reasons that this
> case has drawn widespread attention, but experts say the basic fact of
> Lawal's case - condemnation to death for adultery or another sexual
> offense - is not as rare as it would seem.
>
> NIGERIA IS JUST one of at least two dozen largely Muslim countries or
> regions where Islamic law, or Sharia, is practiced. But the
> application of Sharia - which prescribes a code of conduct for Allah's
> followers -varies radically from place to place, and is often combined
> with other types of judicial systems.
> Rarely, except under dictatorial regimes such as Iran, Sudan
> and Afghanistan under the Taliban, does the state impose such harsh
> penalties as the one meted out to Amina Lawal in Nigeria, where a
> democratically elected government is in place. And in Muslim states
> that do invoke the death penalty, it is not carried out through such
> medieval means as stoning, nearly universally condemned by
> international human rights groups and governments as an exceptionally
> cruel means of execution.
> "The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> attention it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of
> the government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> Muslim society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
> "In many parts of the Muslim world, there is a good deal of
> embarrassment" about the Lawal case, says Ali Mazrui, director of the
> Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University.
> The extremity of the case is at least partly due to the
> unstable political climate in Nigeria, which returned to civilian rule
> in May 1999, after 14 years under a military dictatorship. With the
> end of that regime, long-simmering tensions erupted between the mostly
> Islamic north of the country, and the Christian and animist south. In
> a political bargain, 12 states in the north instituted an extreme
> interpretation of Sharia law. Among other things, this interpretation
> extended the death penalty to cover sexual crimes. President Olusegun
> Obasanjo consented to the change.
>
> It was in the wake of this change that Amina Lawal, a 30-year-old
> divorcee, was arrested nine days after giving birth. The local court
> exonerated Lawal's alleged sexual partner, who merely denied his
> involvement, but charged Lawal with adultery - and sentenced her to be
> buried up to the chest and stoned until "all life leaves her body."
> The execution was to be carried out as soon as her baby daughter,
> Wasila, was old enough to be weaned, or January 2004.
> To some extent, Lawal's case is a test by the north's Islamic
> leaders of their power and independence under the current system.
> While previous stoning sentences have been overturned at lower levels,
> this sentence has persisted, and appeals have led Lawal all the way to
> the Supreme Court of the country.
> Obasanjo, a Christian like about 40 percent of Nigerians, has
> said he expected the Supreme Court would overturn the case. But he
> declined to step in to halt the process, evidently weighing the
> political backlash, and the possibility that sectarian violence would
> again flare in the West African Nation. Muslims make up at least 50
> percent of Nigeria's population.
> The president remained on the sidelines of the court battle,
> despite persistent pressure from around the world to intervene. One of
> the more embarrassing moments came last November when the Miss World
> pageant canceled its plans to crown a new beauty queen in Nigeria's
> capital of Abuja, in a high-profile protest against the stoning
> sentence. Human rights groups point out that if Nigeria carried out
> the sentence, it would violate several human rights treaties to which
> the country is a signatory, as well as the Nigerian constitution,
> which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
>
> Unfortunately, say experts, there are people like Amina Lawal
> around the globe, who are killed for the same crime, while the state
> looks the other way.
> "This is the unofficial law of many countries," says Coleman.
> "What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> time. You just don't hear about it."
> What Coleman refers to are "honor killings" - often committed
> by the father or brother of a woman who has had sex outside of
> marriage, or been raped. The cases are well-documented in Pakistan,
> Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Middle East. Even as
> courts in many countries have halted or limited sentencing to harsh
> physical punishments - such as stoning or chopping off the hand of a
> thief - they sometimes continue at the village level.
> And critics say many countries have done little to stop the
> practice of honor killings - by stoning or more modern means - even
> though it is officially banned. Pakistan, for instance, forbids honor
> killings, but Coleman says that courts give their perpetrators light
> sentences - typically six months to a year in prison. Even in Iran,
> Coleman says, the use of harsh Sharia punishments has tapered off some
> in recent years, but honor killings are common. "What the constitution
> says, and how the law is carried out, are two very different, almost
> unrelated, things," she says.
> 'What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> time. You just don't hear about it.'
> - ISABEL COLEMAN
> Council on Foreign Relations
> IS IT ISLAMIC?
> The stoning sentence for Amina Lawal, and lower profile honor
> killings are often justified by invoking Sharia law, but there is a
> healthy debate among Islamic scholars about what Islam's founding
> father Mohammed would have said about it.
> "The really curious thing is that we don't see sentences of
> stoning at all, historically," says Amira Sonbol, associate professor
> of Islamic history, law, and society at Georgetown University. She
> maintains that it is only in modern day Islamic states that the
> punishment is used.
> Stoning is not mentioned in the Koran, experts agree. Mention
> of the punishment is traceable to the prophetic sayings of Mohammed,
> which carry less weight than the Koran.
>
>
>
> Sonbol believes that it is at best ambiguous whether Mohammed
> was actually advocating stoning for adultery. She argues that stoning
> and honor killing predate Islam, but that Islam has been hijacked to
> justify village and tribal practices and beliefs.
> Mazrui says that even if stoning was the prescribed sentence in
> centuries past, there are provisions within Islam that point toward
> leniency, including the idea that laws can be modified in light of
> changing circumstances. He notes that with artificial insemination,
> the fact of a woman's pregnancy can no longer be sufficient evidence
> of sexual intercourse, and with forensic evidence, rape can be proven
> without the presence of four male witnesses, a standard that was
> almost impossible for prosecution to meet in the past.
>
> Lawyers wait for arguments to begin during August proceedings in the
> Amina Lawal case.
>
> "The struggle we must continue in the Muslim community is (to
> weigh) how compatible the punishments are with modern interpretation."
> While human rights groups and governments around the world have
> weighed in heavily on behalf of Amina Lawal, Islamic scholars like
> Sonbol and Mazrui may ultimately have more sway. They have been
> arguing, in terms of Islam, that the sentence of stoning is
> unjustified.
> Lawal's case could set a powerful precedent, particularly in
> the case of neighboring Niger, which has a similar ethnic and
> religious composition.
> Sonbol believes that the case could have more far-reaching
> effects: "The frightening thing is if this execution goes through it's
> going to appeal to a lot of people," she says.
> She says that similar actions in Afghanistan or Iran were not
> accepted because those governments were not considered legitimate by
> many in the world. "But we're talking about . a state actually
> applying this kind of judgment. . It gives a sense of legitimacy for
> it in other nations."
> Mazrui, however, believes the case will have the reverse
> effect. "There are already reservations about capital punishment and
> about stoning (among Muslims). . If Nigeria were to implement it, it
> would be such a shock it is more likely to make other Muslims more
> cautious."



Thales
2003-09-25 07:50:50 EST
Let us not forget that Islam, as a Arab spin-of of Judaism, prescribed
the same harsh, cruel and unusual punishments s the barbaic laws of
the Pentateuch. Is it any wonder that the American, Thomas Jefferson,
called Judaism a depraved religion. Of course, Christianity only has
the lake of fire and eternal torments for being "incorrect".

The Sharia or Islamic Law is largely in the same tenor as the laws of
the Pentateuch. The Sanhedrin was the court that decided the stoniong
sentences in Judaism. Judaism was just as barbaric as Islam.

>"The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
attention
>it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of the
>government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
Muslim
>society at the Council on Foreign Relations.

The US also has plenty of religious fundamnentalists in government
that poison the sense of justice and equality.

The world will be a much better place when superstitions such as
Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity are all things of our
ignorant past. It is time for humanity's ignorant childhood to come
to an end. All the Gods are murderers and fools.

"In the beginning, cold, cruel, intolerant and power-hungry men
created God in their own image"

================================================
MSNBC NEWS

The fate of Amina Lawal, shown here in court in August, could be
decided Thursday.

Stoning sentence
for Nigerian mom
raises global issues

Killings under Islamic law
are not unusual, experts say

By Kari Huus
MSNBC



Sept. 24 — Under the glare of the international spotlight, a
court in Nigeria on Thursday is expected to decide the fate of Amina
Lawal, a young mother sentenced to death by stoning. After an 18-month
court battle, this is her final chance to appeal for leniency under a
harsh interpretation of Islamic law. There are good reasons that this
case has drawn widespread attention, but experts say the basic fact of
Lawal's case — condemnation to death for adultery or another sexual
offense — is not as rare as it would seem.

NIGERIA IS JUST one of at least two dozen largely Muslim countries or
regions where Islamic law, or Sharia, is practiced. But the
application of Sharia — which prescribes a code of conduct for Allah's
followers —varies radically from place to place, and is often combined
with other types of judicial systems.
Rarely, except under dictatorial regimes such as Iran, Sudan
and Afghanistan under the Taliban, does the state impose such harsh
penalties as the one meted out to Amina Lawal in Nigeria, where a
democratically elected government is in place. And in Muslim states
that do invoke the death penalty, it is not carried out through such
medieval means as stoning, nearly universally condemned by
international human rights groups and governments as an exceptionally
cruel means of execution.
"The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
attention it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of
the government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
Muslim society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
"In many parts of the Muslim world, there is a good deal of
embarrassment" about the Lawal case, says Ali Mazrui, director of the
Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University.
The extremity of the case is at least partly due to the
unstable political climate in Nigeria, which returned to civilian rule
in May 1999, after 14 years under a military dictatorship. With the
end of that regime, long-simmering tensions erupted between the mostly
Islamic north of the country, and the Christian and animist south. In
a political bargain, 12 states in the north instituted an extreme
interpretation of Sharia law. Among other things, this interpretation
extended the death penalty to cover sexual crimes. President Olusegun
Obasanjo consented to the change.

It was in the wake of this change that Amina Lawal, a 30-year-old
divorcee, was arrested nine days after giving birth. The local court
exonerated Lawal's alleged sexual partner, who merely denied his
involvement, but charged Lawal with adultery — and sentenced her to be
buried up to the chest and stoned until "all life leaves her body."
The execution was to be carried out as soon as her baby daughter,
Wasila, was old enough to be weaned, or January 2004.
To some extent, Lawal's case is a test by the north's Islamic
leaders of their power and independence under the current system.
While previous stoning sentences have been overturned at lower levels,
this sentence has persisted, and appeals have led Lawal all the way to
the Supreme Court of the country.
Obasanjo, a Christian like about 40 percent of Nigerians, has
said he expected the Supreme Court would overturn the case. But he
declined to step in to halt the process, evidently weighing the
political backlash, and the possibility that sectarian violence would
again flare in the West African Nation. Muslims make up at least 50
percent of Nigeria's population.
The president remained on the sidelines of the court battle,
despite persistent pressure from around the world to intervene. One of
the more embarrassing moments came last November when the Miss World
pageant canceled its plans to crown a new beauty queen in Nigeria's
capital of Abuja, in a high-profile protest against the stoning
sentence. Human rights groups point out that if Nigeria carried out
the sentence, it would violate several human rights treaties to which
the country is a signatory, as well as the Nigerian constitution,
which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

Unfortunately, say experts, there are people like Amina Lawal
around the globe, who are killed for the same crime, while the state
looks the other way.
"This is the unofficial law of many countries," says Coleman.
"What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
time. You just don't hear about it."
What Coleman refers to are "honor killings" — often committed
by the father or brother of a woman who has had sex outside of
marriage, or been raped. The cases are well-documented in Pakistan,
Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Middle East. Even as
courts in many countries have halted or limited sentencing to harsh
physical punishments — such as stoning or chopping off the hand of a
thief — they sometimes continue at the village level.
And critics say many countries have done little to stop the
practice of honor killings — by stoning or more modern means — even
though it is officially banned. Pakistan, for instance, forbids honor
killings, but Coleman says that courts give their perpetrators light
sentences — typically six months to a year in prison. Even in Iran,
Coleman says, the use of harsh Sharia punishments has tapered off some
in recent years, but honor killings are common. "What the constitution
says, and how the law is carried out, are two very different, almost
unrelated, things," she says.
‘What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
time. You just don't hear about it.'
— ISABEL COLEMAN
Council on Foreign Relations
IS IT ISLAMIC?
The stoning sentence for Amina Lawal, and lower profile honor
killings are often justified by invoking Sharia law, but there is a
healthy debate among Islamic scholars about what Islam's founding
father Mohammed would have said about it.
"The really curious thing is that we don't see sentences of
stoning at all, historically," says Amira Sonbol, associate professor
of Islamic history, law, and society at Georgetown University. She
maintains that it is only in modern day Islamic states that the
punishment is used.
Stoning is not mentioned in the Koran, experts agree. Mention
of the punishment is traceable to the prophetic sayings of Mohammed,
which carry less weight than the Koran.



Sonbol believes that it is at best ambiguous whether Mohammed
was actually advocating stoning for adultery. She argues that stoning
and honor killing predate Islam, but that Islam has been hijacked to
justify village and tribal practices and beliefs.
Mazrui says that even if stoning was the prescribed sentence in
centuries past, there are provisions within Islam that point toward
leniency, including the idea that laws can be modified in light of
changing circumstances. He notes that with artificial insemination,
the fact of a woman's pregnancy can no longer be sufficient evidence
of sexual intercourse, and with forensic evidence, rape can be proven
without the presence of four male witnesses, a standard that was
almost impossible for prosecution to meet in the past.

Lawyers wait for arguments to begin during August proceedings in the
Amina Lawal case.

"The struggle we must continue in the Muslim community is (to
weigh) how compatible the punishments are with modern interpretation."
While human rights groups and governments around the world have
weighed in heavily on behalf of Amina Lawal, Islamic scholars like
Sonbol and Mazrui may ultimately have more sway. They have been
arguing, in terms of Islam, that the sentence of stoning is
unjustified.
Lawal's case could set a powerful precedent, particularly in
the case of neighboring Niger, which has a similar ethnic and
religious composition.
Sonbol believes that the case could have more far-reaching
effects: "The frightening thing is if this execution goes through it's
going to appeal to a lot of people," she says.
She says that similar actions in Afghanistan or Iran were not
accepted because those governments were not considered legitimate by
many in the world. "But we're talking about … a state actually
applying this kind of judgment. … It gives a sense of legitimacy for
it in other nations."
Mazrui, however, believes the case will have the reverse
effect. "There are already reservations about capital punishment and
about stoning (among Muslims). … If Nigeria were to implement it, it
would be such a shock it is more likely to make other Muslims more
cautious."

Mekkala
2003-09-25 11:05:05 EST
On 25 Sep 2003, "DW Suiter" <dwsuiter@toast.net> screwed up his face,
groaned, pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:vn5o3qh333hpad@corp.supernews.com:

> You have written in regards to what you believe. It is unfortunate you
> do not know the truth of these matters.
>
> In ignorance you lump Christianity with the religions. Aside and apart
> from the religion of Christianity is true Christianity.
>
> True "Christians" either know or shall learn the truth concerning the
> matters of God. In regards to "stoning;"
>
> A "stone" refers to a teaching or a principle. To "stone" a person is
> to use a word or principle as a weapon against a person. To use stones
> to "stone to death" is the act of killing off a belief in a person.
>
> However, religionists in their ignorance and separation from God, and
> being carnally minded, interpret the scriptures in a literal sense, or
> a physical sense. Consequently the brutalities and atrocities. And
> unfortunately, others such as atheists have also believed the garbage
> of the religionists in regards to God.
>
> A word of advice; do not judge God by religious teachings nor the
> religionists interpretation and translation of scriptures. Any word or
> act attributed to God that is not based and founded on love and good
> will is not of God, but of man and his false religious doctrines.
>
> DW Suiter
> So of God

You're a fucking idiot. You translate your scriptures to say something
they don't say, in your desperation to vindicate them. Are you saying
that, for example, Joshua's slaughter of every man, woman, and child in
entire cities, at the command of God, was just a metaphor for some less
atrocious act? You are blind and stupid, and your God is as evil as all
the others. Christianity is not special. It is one of the most filthy
religions ever devised by man.

--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.

Bob Young
2003-09-27 01:39:08 EST


Thales wrote:

> Let us not forget that Islam, as a Arab spin-of of Judaism, prescribed
> the same harsh, cruel and unusual punishments s the barbaic laws of
> the Pentateuch. Is it any wonder that the American, Thomas Jefferson,
> called Judaism a depraved religion. Of course, Christianity only has
> the lake of fire and eternal torments for being "incorrect".
>
> The Sharia or Islamic Law is largely in the same tenor as the laws of
> the Pentateuch. The Sanhedrin was the court that decided the stoniong
> sentences in Judaism. Judaism was just as barbaric as Islam.
>
> >"The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> attention
> >it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of the
> >government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> Muslim
> >society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
>
> The US also has plenty of religious fundamnentalists in government
> that poison the sense of justice and equality.
>
> The world will be a much better place when superstitions such as
> Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity are all things of our
> ignorant past. It is time for humanity's ignorant childhood to come
> to an end. All the Gods are murderers and fools.
>
> "In the beginning, cold, cruel, intolerant and power-hungry men
> created God in their own image"......

....to keep everybody in their place

bob
Hong Kong

All religions are founded on the fear of many and the
cleverness of the few.
[Stendhal]



>
>
> ================================================
> MSNBC NEWS
>
> The fate of Amina Lawal, shown here in court in August, could be
> decided Thursday.
>
> Stoning sentence
> for Nigerian mom
> raises global issues
>
> Killings under Islamic law
> are not unusual, experts say
>
> By Kari Huus
> MSNBC
>
>
>
> Sept. 24 — Under the glare of the international spotlight, a
> court in Nigeria on Thursday is expected to decide the fate of Amina
> Lawal, a young mother sentenced to death by stoning. After an 18-month
> court battle, this is her final chance to appeal for leniency under a
> harsh interpretation of Islamic law. There are good reasons that this
> case has drawn widespread attention, but experts say the basic fact of
> Lawal's case — condemnation to death for adultery or another sexual
> offense — is not as rare as it would seem.
>
> NIGERIA IS JUST one of at least two dozen largely Muslim countries or
> regions where Islamic law, or Sharia, is practiced. But the
> application of Sharia — which prescribes a code of conduct for Allah's
> followers —varies radically from place to place, and is often combined
> with other types of judicial systems.
> Rarely, except under dictatorial regimes such as Iran, Sudan
> and Afghanistan under the Taliban, does the state impose such harsh
> penalties as the one meted out to Amina Lawal in Nigeria, where a
> democratically elected government is in place. And in Muslim states
> that do invoke the death penalty, it is not carried out through such
> medieval means as stoning, nearly universally condemned by
> international human rights groups and governments as an exceptionally
> cruel means of execution.
> "The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> attention it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of
> the government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> Muslim society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
> "In many parts of the Muslim world, there is a good deal of
> embarrassment" about the Lawal case, says Ali Mazrui, director of the
> Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University.
> The extremity of the case is at least partly due to the
> unstable political climate in Nigeria, which returned to civilian rule
> in May 1999, after 14 years under a military dictatorship. With the
> end of that regime, long-simmering tensions erupted between the mostly
> Islamic north of the country, and the Christian and animist south. In
> a political bargain, 12 states in the north instituted an extreme
> interpretation of Sharia law. Among other things, this interpretation
> extended the death penalty to cover sexual crimes. President Olusegun
> Obasanjo consented to the change.
>
> It was in the wake of this change that Amina Lawal, a 30-year-old
> divorcee, was arrested nine days after giving birth. The local court
> exonerated Lawal's alleged sexual partner, who merely denied his
> involvement, but charged Lawal with adultery — and sentenced her to be
> buried up to the chest and stoned until "all life leaves her body."
> The execution was to be carried out as soon as her baby daughter,
> Wasila, was old enough to be weaned, or January 2004.
> To some extent, Lawal's case is a test by the north's Islamic
> leaders of their power and independence under the current system.
> While previous stoning sentences have been overturned at lower levels,
> this sentence has persisted, and appeals have led Lawal all the way to
> the Supreme Court of the country.
> Obasanjo, a Christian like about 40 percent of Nigerians, has
> said he expected the Supreme Court would overturn the case. But he
> declined to step in to halt the process, evidently weighing the
> political backlash, and the possibility that sectarian violence would
> again flare in the West African Nation. Muslims make up at least 50
> percent of Nigeria's population.
> The president remained on the sidelines of the court battle,
> despite persistent pressure from around the world to intervene. One of
> the more embarrassing moments came last November when the Miss World
> pageant canceled its plans to crown a new beauty queen in Nigeria's
> capital of Abuja, in a high-profile protest against the stoning
> sentence. Human rights groups point out that if Nigeria carried out
> the sentence, it would violate several human rights treaties to which
> the country is a signatory, as well as the Nigerian constitution,
> which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
>
> Unfortunately, say experts, there are people like Amina Lawal
> around the globe, who are killed for the same crime, while the state
> looks the other way.
> "This is the unofficial law of many countries," says Coleman.
> "What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> time. You just don't hear about it."
> What Coleman refers to are "honor killings" — often committed
> by the father or brother of a woman who has had sex outside of
> marriage, or been raped. The cases are well-documented in Pakistan,
> Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Middle East. Even as
> courts in many countries have halted or limited sentencing to harsh
> physical punishments — such as stoning or chopping off the hand of a
> thief — they sometimes continue at the village level.
> And critics say many countries have done little to stop the
> practice of honor killings — by stoning or more modern means — even
> though it is officially banned. Pakistan, for instance, forbids honor
> killings, but Coleman says that courts give their perpetrators light
> sentences — typically six months to a year in prison. Even in Iran,
> Coleman says, the use of harsh Sharia punishments has tapered off some
> in recent years, but honor killings are common. "What the constitution
> says, and how the law is carried out, are two very different, almost
> unrelated, things," she says.
> ‘What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> time. You just don't hear about it.'
> — ISABEL COLEMAN
> Council on Foreign Relations
> IS IT ISLAMIC?
> The stoning sentence for Amina Lawal, and lower profile honor
> killings are often justified by invoking Sharia law, but there is a
> healthy debate among Islamic scholars about what Islam's founding
> father Mohammed would have said about it.
> "The really curious thing is that we don't see sentences of
> stoning at all, historically," says Amira Sonbol, associate professor
> of Islamic history, law, and society at Georgetown University. She
> maintains that it is only in modern day Islamic states that the
> punishment is used.
> Stoning is not mentioned in the Koran, experts agree. Mention
> of the punishment is traceable to the prophetic sayings of Mohammed,
> which carry less weight than the Koran.
>
>
>
> Sonbol believes that it is at best ambiguous whether Mohammed
> was actually advocating stoning for adultery. She argues that stoning
> and honor killing predate Islam, but that Islam has been hijacked to
> justify village and tribal practices and beliefs.
> Mazrui says that even if stoning was the prescribed sentence in
> centuries past, there are provisions within Islam that point toward
> leniency, including the idea that laws can be modified in light of
> changing circumstances. He notes that with artificial insemination,
> the fact of a woman's pregnancy can no longer be sufficient evidence
> of sexual intercourse, and with forensic evidence, rape can be proven
> without the presence of four male witnesses, a standard that was
> almost impossible for prosecution to meet in the past.
>
> Lawyers wait for arguments to begin during August proceedings in the
> Amina Lawal case.
>
> "The struggle we must continue in the Muslim community is (to
> weigh) how compatible the punishments are with modern interpretation."
> While human rights groups and governments around the world have
> weighed in heavily on behalf of Amina Lawal, Islamic scholars like
> Sonbol and Mazrui may ultimately have more sway. They have been
> arguing, in terms of Islam, that the sentence of stoning is
> unjustified.
> Lawal's case could set a powerful precedent, particularly in
> the case of neighboring Niger, which has a similar ethnic and
> religious composition.
> Sonbol believes that the case could have more far-reaching
> effects: "The frightening thing is if this execution goes through it's
> going to appeal to a lot of people," she says.
> She says that similar actions in Afghanistan or Iran were not
> accepted because those governments were not considered legitimate by
> many in the world. "But we're talking about … a state actually
> applying this kind of judgment. … It gives a sense of legitimacy for
> it in other nations."
> Mazrui, however, believes the case will have the reverse
> effect. "There are already reservations about capital punishment and
> about stoning (among Muslims). … If Nigeria were to implement it, it
> would be such a shock it is more likely to make other Muslims more
> cautious."


Bob Young
2003-09-27 01:39:59 EST


DW Suiter wrote:

> You have written in regards to what you believe. It is unfortunate you do
> not know the truth of these matters.
>
> In ignorance you lump Christianity with the religions. Aside and apart from
> the religion of Christianity is true Christianity.
>
> True "Christians" either know or shall learn the truth concerning the
> matters of God. In regards to "stoning;"
>
> A "stone" refers to a teaching or a principle. To "stone" a person is to use
> a word or principle as a weapon against a person. To use stones to "stone to
> death" is the act of killing off a belief in a person.

How deep down can you stoop to wriggle out of your hole!!!!!

>
>
> However, religionists in their ignorance and separation from God, and being
> carnally minded, interpret the scriptures in a literal sense, or a physical
> sense. Consequently the brutalities and atrocities. And unfortunately,
> others such as atheists have also believed the garbage of the religionists
> in regards to God.
>
> A word of advice; do not judge God by religious teachings nor the
> religionists interpretation and translation of scriptures. Any word or act
> attributed to God that is not based and founded on love and good will is not
> of God, but of man and his false religious doctrines.
>
> DW Suiter
> So of God
>
> "Thales" <Thales_Anaximander@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:528e05a5.0309250350.238dda81@posting.google.com...
> > Let us not forget that Islam, as a Arab spin-of of Judaism, prescribed
> > the same harsh, cruel and unusual punishments s the barbaic laws of
> > the Pentateuch. Is it any wonder that the American, Thomas Jefferson,
> > called Judaism a depraved religion. Of course, Christianity only has
> > the lake of fire and eternal torments for being "incorrect".
> >
> > The Sharia or Islamic Law is largely in the same tenor as the laws of
> > the Pentateuch. The Sanhedrin was the court that decided the stoniong
> > sentences in Judaism. Judaism was just as barbaric as Islam.
> >
> > >"The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> > attention
> > >it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of the
> > >government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> > Muslim
> > >society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
> >
> > The US also has plenty of religious fundamnentalists in government
> > that poison the sense of justice and equality.
> >
> > The world will be a much better place when superstitions such as
> > Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity are all things of our
> > ignorant past. It is time for humanity's ignorant childhood to come
> > to an end. All the Gods are murderers and fools.
> >
> > "In the beginning, cold, cruel, intolerant and power-hungry men
> > created God in their own image"
> >
> > ================================================
> > MSNBC NEWS
> >
> > The fate of Amina Lawal, shown here in court in August, could be
> > decided Thursday.
> >
> > Stoning sentence
> > for Nigerian mom
> > raises global issues
> >
> > Killings under Islamic law
> > are not unusual, experts say
> >
> > By Kari Huus
> > MSNBC
> >
> >
> >
> > Sept. 24 - Under the glare of the international spotlight, a
> > court in Nigeria on Thursday is expected to decide the fate of Amina
> > Lawal, a young mother sentenced to death by stoning. After an 18-month
> > court battle, this is her final chance to appeal for leniency under a
> > harsh interpretation of Islamic law. There are good reasons that this
> > case has drawn widespread attention, but experts say the basic fact of
> > Lawal's case - condemnation to death for adultery or another sexual
> > offense - is not as rare as it would seem.
> >
> > NIGERIA IS JUST one of at least two dozen largely Muslim countries or
> > regions where Islamic law, or Sharia, is practiced. But the
> > application of Sharia - which prescribes a code of conduct for Allah's
> > followers -varies radically from place to place, and is often combined
> > with other types of judicial systems.
> > Rarely, except under dictatorial regimes such as Iran, Sudan
> > and Afghanistan under the Taliban, does the state impose such harsh
> > penalties as the one meted out to Amina Lawal in Nigeria, where a
> > democratically elected government is in place. And in Muslim states
> > that do invoke the death penalty, it is not carried out through such
> > medieval means as stoning, nearly universally condemned by
> > international human rights groups and governments as an exceptionally
> > cruel means of execution.
> > "The Amina Lawal case is extreme because of the international
> > attention it has generated and the complicity at the highest levels of
> > the government," says Isabel Coleman, a senior fellow and expert on
> > Muslim society at the Council on Foreign Relations.
> > "In many parts of the Muslim world, there is a good deal of
> > embarrassment" about the Lawal case, says Ali Mazrui, director of the
> > Institute of Global Cultural Studies at Binghamton University.
> > The extremity of the case is at least partly due to the
> > unstable political climate in Nigeria, which returned to civilian rule
> > in May 1999, after 14 years under a military dictatorship. With the
> > end of that regime, long-simmering tensions erupted between the mostly
> > Islamic north of the country, and the Christian and animist south. In
> > a political bargain, 12 states in the north instituted an extreme
> > interpretation of Sharia law. Among other things, this interpretation
> > extended the death penalty to cover sexual crimes. President Olusegun
> > Obasanjo consented to the change.
> >
> > It was in the wake of this change that Amina Lawal, a 30-year-old
> > divorcee, was arrested nine days after giving birth. The local court
> > exonerated Lawal's alleged sexual partner, who merely denied his
> > involvement, but charged Lawal with adultery - and sentenced her to be
> > buried up to the chest and stoned until "all life leaves her body."
> > The execution was to be carried out as soon as her baby daughter,
> > Wasila, was old enough to be weaned, or January 2004.
> > To some extent, Lawal's case is a test by the north's Islamic
> > leaders of their power and independence under the current system.
> > While previous stoning sentences have been overturned at lower levels,
> > this sentence has persisted, and appeals have led Lawal all the way to
> > the Supreme Court of the country.
> > Obasanjo, a Christian like about 40 percent of Nigerians, has
> > said he expected the Supreme Court would overturn the case. But he
> > declined to step in to halt the process, evidently weighing the
> > political backlash, and the possibility that sectarian violence would
> > again flare in the West African Nation. Muslims make up at least 50
> > percent of Nigeria's population.
> > The president remained on the sidelines of the court battle,
> > despite persistent pressure from around the world to intervene. One of
> > the more embarrassing moments came last November when the Miss World
> > pageant canceled its plans to crown a new beauty queen in Nigeria's
> > capital of Abuja, in a high-profile protest against the stoning
> > sentence. Human rights groups point out that if Nigeria carried out
> > the sentence, it would violate several human rights treaties to which
> > the country is a signatory, as well as the Nigerian constitution,
> > which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
> >
> > Unfortunately, say experts, there are people like Amina Lawal
> > around the globe, who are killed for the same crime, while the state
> > looks the other way.
> > "This is the unofficial law of many countries," says Coleman.
> > "What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> > time. You just don't hear about it."
> > What Coleman refers to are "honor killings" - often committed
> > by the father or brother of a woman who has had sex outside of
> > marriage, or been raped. The cases are well-documented in Pakistan,
> > Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Middle East. Even as
> > courts in many countries have halted or limited sentencing to harsh
> > physical punishments - such as stoning or chopping off the hand of a
> > thief - they sometimes continue at the village level.
> > And critics say many countries have done little to stop the
> > practice of honor killings - by stoning or more modern means - even
> > though it is officially banned. Pakistan, for instance, forbids honor
> > killings, but Coleman says that courts give their perpetrators light
> > sentences - typically six months to a year in prison. Even in Iran,
> > Coleman says, the use of harsh Sharia punishments has tapered off some
> > in recent years, but honor killings are common. "What the constitution
> > says, and how the law is carried out, are two very different, almost
> > unrelated, things," she says.
> > 'What is happening (in Nigeria) is happening around the world all the
> > time. You just don't hear about it.'
> > - ISABEL COLEMAN
> > Council on Foreign Relations
> > IS IT ISLAMIC?
> > The stoning sentence for Amina Lawal, and lower profile honor
> > killings are often justified by invoking Sharia law, but there is a
> > healthy debate among Islamic scholars about what Islam's founding
> > father Mohammed would have said about it.
> > "The really curious thing is that we don't see sentences of
> > stoning at all, historically," says Amira Sonbol, associate professor
> > of Islamic history, law, and society at Georgetown University. She
> > maintains that it is only in modern day Islamic states that the
> > punishment is used.
> > Stoning is not mentioned in the Koran, experts agree. Mention
> > of the punishment is traceable to the prophetic sayings of Mohammed,
> > which carry less weight than the Koran.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sonbol believes that it is at best ambiguous whether Mohammed
> > was actually advocating stoning for adultery. She argues that stoning
> > and honor killing predate Islam, but that Islam has been hijacked to
> > justify village and tribal practices and beliefs.
> > Mazrui says that even if stoning was the prescribed sentence in
> > centuries past, there are provisions within Islam that point toward
> > leniency, including the idea that laws can be modified in light of
> > changing circumstances. He notes that with artificial insemination,
> > the fact of a woman's pregnancy can no longer be sufficient evidence
> > of sexual intercourse, and with forensic evidence, rape can be proven
> > without the presence of four male witnesses, a standard that was
> > almost impossible for prosecution to meet in the past.
> >
> > Lawyers wait for arguments to begin during August proceedings in the
> > Amina Lawal case.
> >
> > "The struggle we must continue in the Muslim community is (to
> > weigh) how compatible the punishments are with modern interpretation."
> > While human rights groups and governments around the world have
> > weighed in heavily on behalf of Amina Lawal, Islamic scholars like
> > Sonbol and Mazrui may ultimately have more sway. They have been
> > arguing, in terms of Islam, that the sentence of stoning is
> > unjustified.
> > Lawal's case could set a powerful precedent, particularly in
> > the case of neighboring Niger, which has a similar ethnic and
> > religious composition.
> > Sonbol believes that the case could have more far-reaching
> > effects: "The frightening thing is if this execution goes through it's
> > going to appeal to a lot of people," she says.
> > She says that similar actions in Afghanistan or Iran were not
> > accepted because those governments were not considered legitimate by
> > many in the world. "But we're talking about . a state actually
> > applying this kind of judgment. . It gives a sense of legitimacy for
> > it in other nations."
> > Mazrui, however, believes the case will have the reverse
> > effect. "There are already reservations about capital punishment and
> > about stoning (among Muslims). . If Nigeria were to implement it, it
> > would be such a shock it is more likely to make other Muslims more
> > cautious."


Adam Marczyk
2003-09-30 02:00:51 EST
DW Suiter <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
news:vn5o3qh333hpad@corp.supernews.com...
> You have written in regards to what you believe. It is unfortunate you do
> not know the truth of these matters.
>
> In ignorance you lump Christianity with the religions. Aside and apart
> from the religion of Christianity is true Christianity.
>
> True "Christians" either know or shall learn the truth concerning the
> matters of God. In regards to "stoning;"
>
> A "stone" refers to a teaching or a principle. To "stone" a person is to
> use a word or principle as a weapon against a person. To use stones to
> "stone to death" is the act of killing off a belief in a person.

This is a very... interesting interpretation, to say the least. So when the
Bible says that the Israelites stoned someone to death, it really means
they engaged him in peaceful and rational debate until he changed his mind?
Well, okay, but then would you mind explaining what "burning with fire"
means in this context? How about "raising a great heap of stones over"
someone? Do these phrases also have non-violent metaphorical meanings that
just aren't obvious to us ignorant atheists?

(Joshua 7:24-26)
"And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the
silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his
daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and
all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua
said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And
all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they
had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of
stones unto this day."

--
"I'm materialist | a.a. #2001
Call me a humanist | http://www.ebonmusings.org
I guess I'm full of doubt | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
So I'll gladly have it out with you..." | ICQ: 8777843
--Bad Religion, "Materialist" | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------


DW Suiter
2003-10-02 06:45:00 EST
They are all metaphors. To heap stones is similar to stoning. Heaping stones
is to heave up "building blocks" in the mind. The burning by fire is to use
the tongue (word) as a fiery sword. The tongue/word can be used to "cut" a
person up. As the apostle Paul related these are not the true but "figures"
of the true. They are merely figures of speech used to convey a concept to
carnally minded people who could not grasp spiritual concepts.

Unfortunately, religionists interpreted the writings as applicable to the
physical and we have the murdering and killing of the physical body. It is
all inanity for the physical body merely acts on the will of the mind. It is
the mind that must be corrected in order to alter physical criminal acts.
Currently man uses the archaic principle of fear and torture in attempts to
control criminal behavior. Laws such as this are derived from the religious
interpretation of spiritual laws.

Archaic religious law is the same as criminal law of man, it is destructive
rather than constructive; negative rather than positive.

DW Suiter
Son of God

"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
news:n_8eb.2781$Ij5.1533@news02.roc.ny...
> DW Suiter <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
> news:vn5o3qh333hpad@corp.supernews.com...
> > You have written in regards to what you believe. It is unfortunate you
do
> > not know the truth of these matters.
> >
> > In ignorance you lump Christianity with the religions. Aside and apart
> > from the religion of Christianity is true Christianity.
> >
> > True "Christians" either know or shall learn the truth concerning the
> > matters of God. In regards to "stoning;"
> >
> > A "stone" refers to a teaching or a principle. To "stone" a person is to
> > use a word or principle as a weapon against a person. To use stones to
> > "stone to death" is the act of killing off a belief in a person.
>
> This is a very... interesting interpretation, to say the least. So when
the
> Bible says that the Israelites stoned someone to death, it really means
> they engaged him in peaceful and rational debate until he changed his
mind?
> Well, okay, but then would you mind explaining what "burning with fire"
> means in this context? How about "raising a great heap of stones over"
> someone? Do these phrases also have non-violent metaphorical meanings that
> just aren't obvious to us ignorant atheists?
>
> (Joshua 7:24-26)
> "And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the
> silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his
> daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and
> all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And
Joshua
> said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And
> all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they
> had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of
> stones unto this day."
>
> --
> "I'm materialist | a.a. #2001
> Call me a humanist | http://www.ebonmusings.org
> I guess I'm full of doubt | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
> So I'll gladly have it out with you..." | ICQ: 8777843
> --Bad Religion, "Materialist" | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>



Dan
2003-10-02 12:39:55 EST
Muslims women vs Christian/Jews sluts.

The Muslim woman's in veil focus is her home, the "nest" where her
children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot
that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training
her children,providing refuge and support to her husband.


In contrast, the bikinied Western Christians/Jew sluts practically
naked in front of millions, she belongs to herself. In
practice,paradoxically,she is public property. She belongs to no one
and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is
auctioning herself all of the time.In western Christian/Jew sluts culture,
the cultural measure of a woman's value is her sex appeal

Adam Marczyk
2003-10-02 13:26:31 EST
DW Suiter <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
news:3f7c01f9@news03.toast.net...
> They are all metaphors. To heap stones is similar to stoning. Heaping
> stones is to heave up "building blocks" in the mind. The burning by fire
> is to use the tongue (word) as a fiery sword. The tongue/word can be
> used to "cut" a person up. As the apostle Paul related these are not
> the true but "figures" of the true. They are merely figures of speech
> used to convey a concept to carnally minded people who could not grasp
> spiritual concepts.
>
> Unfortunately, religionists interpreted the writings as applicable to the
> physical and we have the murdering and killing of the physical body. It
> is all inanity for the physical body merely acts on the will of the
> mind. It is the mind that must be corrected in order to alter physical
> criminal acts. Currently man uses the archaic principle of fear and
> torture in attempts to control criminal behavior. Laws such as this are
> derived from the religious interpretation of spiritual laws.
>
> Archaic religious law is the same as criminal law of man, it is
> destructive rather than constructive; negative rather than positive.

In that case, I have only one more question: How would these verses have to
be phrased differently in order to convince you that literal stoning was
meant?

--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------


DW Suiter
2003-10-02 14:52:05 EST
Literal physical stoning has and does occur simply because of the carnal
mind of religionists. However, the reason they do so is because of their
literal translation of scriptural metaphors.

Perhaps the worst offenders are those following Judaic law such as Leviticus
law. Originally, these laws were applicable to the mind and spirit, not the
physical body. They have been translated and interpreted incorrectly by the
carnally minded religionists.

For example, "an eye for an eye" correctly understood means to exchange one
way of seeing things for another way of seeing things. A 'tooth for a tooth"
means to change what one eats in regards to spiritual food.

The matters of God pertain only to the spiritual body, not the physical
body.

DW Suiter
Son of God

"Adam Marczyk" <see@sig.com> wrote in message
news:bdZeb.4600$Lu.108@news02.roc.ny...
> DW Suiter <dwsuiter@toast.net> wrote in message
> news:3f7c01f9@news03.toast.net...
> > They are all metaphors. To heap stones is similar to stoning. Heaping
> > stones is to heave up "building blocks" in the mind. The burning by fire
> > is to use the tongue (word) as a fiery sword. The tongue/word can be
> > used to "cut" a person up. As the apostle Paul related these are not
> > the true but "figures" of the true. They are merely figures of speech
> > used to convey a concept to carnally minded people who could not grasp
> > spiritual concepts.
> >
> > Unfortunately, religionists interpreted the writings as applicable to
the
> > physical and we have the murdering and killing of the physical body. It
> > is all inanity for the physical body merely acts on the will of the
> > mind. It is the mind that must be corrected in order to alter physical
> > criminal acts. Currently man uses the archaic principle of fear and
> > torture in attempts to control criminal behavior. Laws such as this are
> > derived from the religious interpretation of spiritual laws.
> >
> > Archaic religious law is the same as criminal law of man, it is
> > destructive rather than constructive; negative rather than positive.
>
> In that case, I have only one more question: How would these verses have
to
> be phrased differently in order to convince you that literal stoning was
> meant?
>
> --
> "We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
> to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
> --Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
> two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
> quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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