Bible Discussion: Re: King Lear, R&J, Bible Quotations By Shakespeare

Re: King Lear, R&J, Bible Quotations By Shakespeare
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Henry Hanna
2003-09-03 21:45:40 EST


Thank you for the various comments.

Re: Bible quotations by Shakespeare

Most Bible quotations must
be by priests in the Histories.
The rest are passing references, like
in Merchant of Venice or what Hamlet says
about the sparrow.
I don't think there aren't interesting Bible
quotes -- interesting quotes tend to become
too preachy or too controversial.


Re: King Lear

The Fool is missing in the final scene supposedly
because the same actor played him and Cordelia
in the original productions.


> >I say, where is Gloucester in the final scene?
> >Recovering, dead or just silent?
> >
> Dead. Edgar describes his death a the beginning of
that scene (V,3)

Really?
I just noticed the following.
So Gloucester is not dead.
http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/lear/lear.5.3.html
EDGAR
[...]
The dark and vicious place where thee he got
Cost him his eyes.



Jo Lonergan <jolonergan@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<9gt6lvcvff45epc5iscckugdmhu6eior0f@4ax.com>...
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:27:48 -0700 (PDT), Henry
Hanna
> <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
>
> >--- King Lear:
> >
> >People note that the Fool is missing in the final
> >scene.
>
> In the whole second half of the play, in fact.
>
> >His comments wouldn't been too flip anyway.
> >I say, where is Gloucester in the final scene?
> >Recovering, dead or just silent?
> >
> Dead. Edgar describes his death a the beginning of
that scene (V,3)
>
> >--- Romeo & Juliet:
> >
> >Juliet is 13, and her mother tells her that
> >she was already a mother (or pregnant) at that
> >age. Was this common?
> >
> Research into parish registers etc. indicates that
it was not. Capulet
> himself seems to think it's a not a good idea,
though whether he's
> thinking of his own case isn't indicated.
>
> >It seems weird that young boy of his age (was
> >he also 13?) is so eager to be in love.
> >Many boys his age are eager to have sex, for sure.
> >But eager to be in love?
>
> We don't know how old he is. He's usually played
18-20ish, a more
> romantic age than 13 :-)
>
> HTH



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Jessica L. Price
2003-09-03 22:46:18 EST

"Henry Hanna" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20030904014540.29951.qmail@web60108.mail.yahoo.com...

| Thank you for the various comments.
|
| Re: Bible quotations by Shakespeare
|
| Most Bible quotations must
| be by priests in the Histories.
| The rest are passing references, like
| in Merchant of Venice or what Hamlet says
| about the sparrow.
| I don't think there aren't interesting Bible
| quotes -- interesting quotes tend to become
| too preachy or too controversial.

Are you kidding? Characters reference the Bible constantly even if
indirectly, especially in Hamlet. They're *not* "passing references" but
integral pointers to the meanings of passages -- as when Hamlet references
Jephthah's daughter in front of Polonius -- as are other Christian
references, such as the frequent mentions of Wittenburg in Hamlet.

| Re: King Lear
|
| The Fool is missing in the final scene supposedly
| because the same actor played him and Cordelia
| in the original productions.

It's possible, since they're never in the same scenes together, but
Cordelia was most likely played by a boy, while the Fool was probably
played by Robert Armin, a professional comedian who joined the company
around 1600. The role of the Fool seems better suited to Armin's spectrum
of skills (quick wit, mental agility and singing) than to a younger boy.
It is true that Lear refers to him as "boy," but the Fool's acerbic wit
and knife-twisting does not seem suited to a young character. In 3.6, he
exits supporting a Lear whose wits are completely gone, and it is the last
we see of him because his job is done. Lear is beyond the limits of the
Fool, who plays games with language but still conforms to rules and
predetermined meanings. Lear's signifying order has fallen apart
completely. He needs a madman now and has just received one. The Fool
can do no more at that point.

Furthermore, he himself no longer able to aid Lear. In 3.2.35, the Fool,
who has always loved Cordelia, utters the line: "For there was never yet
fair woman but she made mouths in a glass." The Fool would normally never
say anything of the sort about Cordelia! His world is shattered. He's
broken. He's out of there. And, not a moment too soon, along comes a
madman to journey with Lear on the next stage of his descent.

| > >I say, where is Gloucester in the final scene?
| > >Recovering, dead or just silent?
| > >
| > Dead. Edgar describes his death a the beginning of
| that scene (V,3)
|
| Really?
| I just noticed the following.
| So Gloucester is not dead.
| http://the-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/lear/lear.5.3.html
| EDGAR
| [...]
| The dark and vicious place where thee he got
| Cost him his eyes.

What?!?!

Gloucester is dead. Edgar says this to *Edmund.* The line is uttered in
the context of discussing how the gods turn sins against the sinner:

"My name is Edgar and thy father's son.
The gods are just and of our pleasant vices
Make instruments to plague us:
The dark and vicious place where thee he got
Cost him his eyes." (5.3.167-171)

He's talking about how our sins come back to haunt us. Edmund, begotten
of the "pleasant vice" of adultery, (his adulterous mother's you-know-what
being a "dark and vicious place," since it led his father to secret
("dark") sin) has turned Gloucester over to Cornwall and Regan:

REGAN (to Gloucester, when he calls upon Edmund to avenge his blinding)
"Thou call'st on him that hates thee. It was he
That made the overture of thy treasons to us,
Who is too good to pity thee."

I'm not sure how your quote could be read in *any* way to suggest that
Gloucester is still alive. He's not. As others have said, Edgar
describes his death:

"I asked his blessing and from first to last
Told him our pilgrimage. But his flawed heart,
Alack, too weak the conflict to support,
'Twixt two extremes of passion, joy and grief,
Burst smilingly." (5.3.194-198)

Regards,

Jessica



A Tsar Is Born
2003-09-05 11:43:48 EST

"Henry Hanna" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20030904014540.29951.qmail@web60108.mail.yahoo.com...
> > >--- Romeo & Juliet:
> > >
> > >Juliet is 13, and her mother tells her that
> > >she was already a mother (or pregnant) at that
> > >age. Was this common?
> > >
> > Research into parish registers etc. indicates that
> it was not. Capulet
> > himself seems to think it's a not a good idea,
> though whether he's
> > thinking of his own case isn't indicated.

It was not out of the question and there was no legal bar to it.
Marriages were often contracted much younger than that, and celebrated at
the family's convenience, not the bride's. This is not the least of reasons
for the large number of deaths in childbed.

> > >It seems weird that young boy of his age (was
> > >he also 13?) is so eager to be in love.
> > >Many boys his age are eager to have sex, for sure.
> > >But eager to be in love?
> >
> > We don't know how old he is. He's usually played
> 18-20ish, a more romantic age than 13 :-)
> >
> > HTH

Boys into poetry are indeed often looking for Just One person, not a whole
crowd
Perfectly common.
We're supposed to think Romeo rather more noble than, say, his rowdy
friends.

Jean Coeur de Lapin



Francis Muir
2003-09-05 12:54:01 EST
On 9/5/03 8:43 AM, in article Ua26b.48$KX6.0@nwrdny03.gnilink.net, "A Tsar
Is Born" <AtsarisbornNoSpam@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Henry Hanna" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
> news:20030904014540.29951.qmail@web60108.mail.yahoo.com...
>>>> --- Romeo & Juliet:
>>>>
>>>> Juliet is 13, and her mother tells her that
>>>> she was already a mother (or pregnant) at that
>>>> age. Was this common?
>>>>
>>> Research into parish registers etc. indicates that
>> it was not. Capulet
>>> himself seems to think it's a not a good idea,
>> though whether he's
>>> thinking of his own case isn't indicated.
>
> It was not out of the question and there was no legal bar to it.
> Marriages were often contracted much younger than that, and celebrated at
> the family's convenience, not the bride's. This is not the least of reasons
> for the large number of deaths in childbed.

Codswallop. Where's the evidence?


Smw
2003-09-05 14:39:49 EST


A Tsar Is Born wrote:

> "Henry Hanna" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
> news:20030904014540.29951.qmail@web60108.mail.yahoo.com...
>
>>>>--- Romeo & Juliet:
>>>>
>>>>Juliet is 13, and her mother tells her that
>>>>she was already a mother (or pregnant) at that
>>>>age. Was this common?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Research into parish registers etc. indicates that
>>>
>>it was not. Capulet
>>
>>>himself seems to think it's a not a good idea,
>>>
>>though whether he's
>>
>>>thinking of his own case isn't indicated.
>>>
>
> It was not out of the question and there was no legal bar to it.


What's with the past tense? Isn't the Texas legal age to marry 13?


T*@yaNOSPAMhoo.com
2003-09-06 10:57:39 EST
In rec.arts.books smw <smwei@ameritech.net> wrote:

> What's with the past tense? Isn't the Texas legal age to marry 13?

14, and hard luck for Romeo, you need parental consent. You can waive
the consent if you were previous married, say at 12 in the Phillippines.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

T*@yaNOSPAMhoo.com
2003-09-06 11:22:50 EST
In rec.arts.books tomcatpolka@yanospamhoo.com wrote:

> 14, and hard luck for Romeo, you need parental consent. You can waive
> the consent if you were previous married, say at 12 in the Phillippines.

> http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

A question is ... suppose Romeo married Juliet at 14, yet the age of
consent is 17. Does this mean he can't legally have sex for 3 years?

JimC
2003-09-06 12:21:39 EST


t*a@yaNOSPAMhoo.com wrote:

> In rec.arts.books smw <smwei@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>
>>What's with the past tense? Isn't the Texas legal age to marry 13?
>
>
> 14, and hard luck for Romeo, you need parental consent. You can waive
> the consent if you were previous married, say at 12 in the Phillippines.
>
> http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

I just used the phrase "All the News That's Fit to Print" in another
post, and little did I know at the time that another cynical version had
already reached r.a.b.

Another column besides man-woman, man-man, woman-woman could tabulate
the law on threesomes and orgies. Also, for purposes of bestiality,
does a satyr count as an animal? That Marc Chagall painting ("A
Midsummer Night's Dream") is used in a pitch for the current exhibit at
SF-MoMA and is in every storefront window in San Francisco right now.
No big deal in San Francisco. But is Big D ready for Chagall?









T*@yaNOSPAMhoo.com
2003-09-06 22:14:54 EST
In rec.arts.books JimC <jim@jim-collier.com> wrote:

> Another column besides man-woman, man-man, woman-woman could tabulate
> the law on threesomes and orgies. Also, for purposes of bestiality,
> does a satyr count as an animal?

Perhaps it depends if the sex organs are human or animal? I have never
figured out how one has sex with a mermaid.

Robert Stonehouse
2003-09-07 04:19:00 EST
On 6 Sep 2003 15:22:50 GMT, tomcatpolka@yaNOSPAMhoo.com wrote:

>In rec.arts.books tomcatpolka@yanospamhoo.com wrote:
>
>> 14, and hard luck for Romeo, you need parental consent. You can waive
>> the consent if you were previous married, say at 12 in the Phillippines.
>
>> http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm
>
>A question is ... suppose Romeo married Juliet at 14, yet the age of
>consent is 17. Does this mean he can't legally have sex for 3 years?

It would, of course; but consider the facts at the time. The following
example shows a marriage intended to be at age 12 (or perhaps 13?) and
makes the point that consummation was expected to follow immediately;
and in this case when it did not, it was required by the king's order.

"Edward Doughtie suggests that this song, the next one, and possibly
the preceding, were written for the wedding celebrations of Lord
Howard de Walden (in whose employment, it will be remembered, Dowland
was at the time of the publication of 'A Pilgrimes Solace') on his
marriage to the Lady Elizabeth home, daughter of the Earl of Dunbar.
According to G.B.Cockayne, the marriage contract, dated November 17th,
1606, stipulated that the marriage should take place 'within three
months after the saidLady Elizabeth should accomplish the age of
twelve years'. The ceremony was, however, delayed by the death of the
Earl on January 29th, 1610/11, who was, as Calderwood says, 'by death
pulled down even when he was about to solemnise magnificently his
daughter's marriage with the Lord Walden'. The marriage was again
delayed by disputes about the Lady Elizabeth's portion and was not
solemnised until March 1612. On November 3rd, 1612, John Chamberlain
wrote to Sir Ralph Winwood 'the Lord Walden that hath ben now a goode
while wedded to the Lord of Dunbars daughter, was not bedded with her
till the last weeke, and that by special commaundment'."
(Diana Poulton, 'John Dowland', chapter 3, 'A Pilgrimes Solace'.)

The 'special commaundment' must be the king's. There was not much
James could do that Elizabeth could not - he had a hard act to follow
- but one thing was to unite England and Scotland, because he was king
of both. So his policy was to encourage marriages between the
nobilities of the two countries. Here were two people threatening to
make a nullity out of one of his favoured matches, and he was not
pleased.

Dowland's book divides into three parts. (He had already produced a
First, Second and Third Book of Songs - a challenging target, rarely
achieved, especially at three-year intervals pivoting on the centenary
year (1597, 1600, 1603). So he was not going to enter on another
marathon: this time; one book in three parts was sufficient.) The
third part consists of songs for this wedding, largely designed to
soothe the bride's apprehensions.
19. "The golden mean that constant spirit bears
In such extremes, that nor presumes nor fears."
20. "Longing hope does no hurt but this:
It heightens Love's attained bliss."
21. "Fear not Hymen's peaceful war;
You'll conquer though you subdued are."
(Hymen is the ancient god of marriage, e.g. Catullus 62)

This third part is introduced by an older song about Apollo and Daphne
that had been performed for Queen Elizabeth (this made its use less
pointed, more courteous to King James) but there was a slight
alteration to the words, deprecating his anger:
18. "Then this be sure, since it is true perfection,
The neither men nor gods can force affection."
Into which category James falls, he can decide. But Lord Howard de
Walden's refusal to force the little girl could hardly be more
diplomatically put.
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