Bible Discussion: Is Making A Covenant With God Blasphemy????

Is Making A Covenant With God Blasphemy????
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Caiaphas
2003-08-13 13:33:37 EST
For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those folks,
would the following be blasphemy?


Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
sincere, would
God understand? For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
Christ." Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an evil
life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and thus
fulfilling many of Christ's commandments. And, if by conditionally accepting
Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how many
righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath. Would
God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be better
than nothing?

Comments?



Zayton
2003-08-13 20:45:26 EST

"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net...
> For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those
folks,
> would the following be blasphemy?
>
>
> Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> sincere, would
> God understand?

Unless they reallly believed it to be true, why would they?

For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> Christ."

I think you meant "conditionally" accept Christ, didn't you?

Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an evil
> life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and
thus
> fulfilling many of Christ's commandments.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven." -Matthew
7:21

And, if by conditionally accepting
> Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how
many
> righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath.

Neither Abraham not the people for whom he barganed ever heard of, much less
accepted Jesus Christ, Yet Paul insists that Abraham was saved, and seems to
affirm that others were as well.

Would
> God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be
better
> than nothing?

It is better than those who claim the name of Christ, but show forth none of
his spirit.

>
> Comments?
>
>




Caiaphas
2003-08-14 07:55:05 EST

"zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:BNA_a.7737$rh1.1387@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net...
> > For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> > Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those
> folks,
> > would the following be blasphemy?
> >
> >
> > Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> > understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> > sincere, would
> > God understand?
>
> Unless they reallly believed it to be true, why would they?
>
> For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> > Christ."
>
> I think you meant "conditionally" accept Christ, didn't you?
>
> Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an evil
> > life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and
> thus
> > fulfilling many of Christ's commandments.
>
> "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
> but only the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven." -Matthew
> 7:21

My reasoning is probably a lot like the Universalist doctrine which states that
all seek their own ways to Salvation. I posted this and when posting it thought
it was a 'stretch'.




>
> And, if by conditionally accepting
> > Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how
> many
> > righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath.
>
> Neither Abraham not the people for whom he barganed ever heard of, much less
> accepted Jesus Christ, Yet Paul insists that Abraham was saved, and seems to
> affirm that others were as well.

Paul insists Abraham was saved -- what did Jesus tell us about the OT prophets?
We will never know for sure, but only suppose what has happened.



>
> Would
> > God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be
> better
> > than nothing?
>
> It is better than those who claim the name of Christ, but show forth none of
> his spirit.

I thought this was a "stretch" but thought we just don't know if God would
accept it. But, then again, it probably would help more than doing nothing.
Then again, maybe this idea would give someone a feeling that everything was OK
that later prevented them from accepting Christ.



Caiaphas
2003-08-14 08:07:58 EST

"Dore" <spiritfire@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:1lC_a.17919$7I1.3490@news02.roc.ny...
> "Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net...
> > For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> > Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those
> folks,
> > would the following be blasphemy?
> >
> >
> > Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> > understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> > sincere, would
> > God understand? For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> > Christ." Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an
> evil
> > life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and
> thus
> > fulfilling many of Christ's commandments. And, if by conditionally
> accepting
> > Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how
> many
> > righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath.
> Would
> > God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be
> better
> > than nothing?
> >
>
> So you are proposing that Jews and Muslims bargain with God, and that God
> should bow to their conditions as if they were more important that GOD'S
> WILL and plan of salvation? Since when does MAN demand that their conditions
> supercede God's? And WHY should GOD BOW to what any man DESIRES? That would
> cause God to give up HIS authority, throne and power to men. WHY would He do
> that?
>

I posted this thinking that I really don't totally believe this, but for those
who were born and raised in cultures that prohibit them from accepting Christ
that there would be some way for them. An example would be modern day Jews who
are bombarded by their culture to reject Christ. On a human level, it does not
feel fair for someone like me who was brought up in a Christian culture which
aids me to easily find Christ versus someone who was raised in a Jewish culture
where the culture hinders you from accepting Christ. In a way, it is like one
(those raised in a Christian culture) has a birthright and the other (those not
raised in a Christian culture) does not and on a human level that seems immoral.


Good point - "Why should God bow to what any man desires?". When we set the
conditions to God, perhaps we are trying to make ourselves greater than we have
the right to. Perhaps the only time that one can 'bargin' with God is when one
walks with God doing His Will. In that situation, one would not be bargining
about whether there is a Christ, because one has already accepted Christ. There
the bargining would be over how one is to do Gods Will.







Joel M. Eichen D.D.S.
2003-08-14 08:25:49 EST
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:07:58 -0400, "Caiaphas"
<*6@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Dore" <spiritfire@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>news:1lC_a.17919$7I1.3490@news02.roc.ny...
>> "Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net...

>> > For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
>> > Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior.

REPLY:

Not really. You may believe it but others may reject it .... plain and
simple. Same as Alien Autopsy. You may believe they autopsied aliens
at Roswell, New Mexico, but I say someone has ulterior motives!

Many religions are quite similar ........ with similar scientific
proof of same!

Joel


--
Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies:
<You fill it in>

Mike Shultz
2003-08-14 13:06:25 EST
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:33:37 -0400, Caiaphas wrote:

> For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those
> folks, would the following be blasphemy?
>
>
> Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> sincere, would
> God understand? For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> Christ." Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an
> evil life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds
> and thus fulfilling many of Christ's commandments. And, if by
> conditionally accepting Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham
> bargained with God over how many righteous people would have to be in a
> town to save it from Gods wrath. Would God accept us giving Him a
> covenant of our understanding? Would this be better than nothing?
>
> Comments?

This is a clever tactic, especially from you Caiaphas. Is it your own
or did you learn it somewhere? Now I have one simple question for you:

Since you agree there is already a God, why would you need to accept
another as a "maybe" God?

My answer to my own simple question:

The idea of monotheism is that there is only one God, not a "father son
and holy ghost" or any other such nonsense, it is so simple, one God, only
one. You need to pray? No need to be confused, just pray to God. Don't
pray to maybe Gods, nor wannabe Gods, only pray to God. So simple.

-Mike



Daniel Wilson
2003-09-03 14:51:15 EST
1. We are not told to "accept Christ". We are told to believe in Him.
2. Believing in Christ does away with the "if you exist" or "if you
are who you say you are" part. Those who believe in Christ believe He
is who and what He claimed to be -- God in the flesh. And those who
truly believe are born again, born of God. And those who are born of
God no longer practice sin. See I John 5:1-18 for that truth in all
its beauty and power.

Daniel Wilson

"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net>...
> For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those folks,
> would the following be blasphemy?
>
>
> Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> sincere, would
> God understand? For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> Christ." Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an evil
> life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and thus
> fulfilling many of Christ's commandments. And, if by conditionally accepting
> Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how many
> righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath. Would
> God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be better
> than nothing?
>
> Comments?

Michael Burt
2003-09-03 17:50:57 EST
In article <20f25982.0309031051.5815464d@posting.google.com>,
firepower_50ae@yahoo.com (Daniel Wilson) wrote:

> 1. We are not told to "accept Christ". We are told to believe in Him.
> 2. Believing in Christ does away with the "if you exist" or "if you
> are who you say you are" part. Those who believe in Christ believe He
> is who and what He claimed to be -- God in the flesh. And those who
> truly believe are born again, born of God. And those who are born of
> God no longer practice sin. See I John 5:1-18 for that truth in all
> its beauty and power.

I would agree that Christ has the power to forgieve repentant sin;
however, I know of no Christian who has accepted santification instantly
and then conquerers the long process of santification in that same
instant. Santification, striving to live in the Image of Christ is a
process, each day better than the last, but often not without more need
for repentance.


>
> Daniel Wilson
>
> "Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<2Eu_a.21$Je.1129@eagle.america.net>...
> > For many reasons, there is a lot of pressure for some people like Jews and
> > Muslims to reject Christ as God, Messiah, and our Savior. For those folks,
> > would the following be blasphemy?
> >
> >
> > Would it be a stretch for someone to accept Christ *conditional* on ones
> > understanding, including Jews and Muslims? As long as the acceptance was
> > sincere, would
> > God understand? For example, "If Christ is God, I unconditionally accept
> > Christ." Surely if one is a moral person living a good rather than an
> > evil
> > life, he/she would live a generally righteous life doing good deeds and
> > thus
> > fulfilling many of Christ's commandments. And, if by conditionally
> > accepting
> > Christ, would our sins be forgiven? Abraham bargained with God over how
> > many
> > righteous people would have to be in a town to save it from Gods wrath.
> > Would
> > God accept us giving Him a covenant of our understanding? Would this be
> > better
> > than nothing?
> >
> > Comments?
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