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The Bible Fraud
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Andrew W \Paranormal Agnostic\
2004-10-29 21:03:42 EST
The Bible Fraud
Book Review
www.thebiblefraud.com

BEHIND THE FRAUD
What was the Church trying to hide?
By Robert Adams (Article published in New Dawn Magazine No 71 March 2002)
www.newdawnmagazine.com

When I first spoke to a close Christian friend of mine about the publishing
of Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud, her reaction was one that many Christians
have expressed, and one that made me aghast. She didn't want the book
available because it would "persuade them away from the Bible and the word
of God." Further discussions with her and many other Christians around the
world about The Bible Fraud all result in the Bible being quoted as the
ultimate reference for the apparent "words of God," and therefore the basis
for their arguments. The problem lies in that they believe the Bible is
infallible.
If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible" housed in
the British Museum (I believe that, during his many years of research, Tony
had a private viewing of this priceless book), we find a staggering 14,800
differences from today's Bible and yet it still remains the word of God?

As Tony points out, the history of our 'genuine' Bibles is a convoluted one.
Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as it was originally
intended. In 1415 the Church of Rome took an extraordinary step to destroy
all knowledge of two second century Jewish books that it said contained the
true name of Jesus Christ. The Antipope Benedict XIII firstly singled out
for condemnation a secret Latin treatise called "Mar Yesu" and then issued
instructions to destroy all copies of the book of Elxai. The Rabbinic
fraternity once held the destroyed manuscripts with great reverence for they
were comprehensive original records reporting the life of Rabbi Jesus.
Later, Pope Alexander VI ordered all copies of the Talmud destroyed, with
the Spanish Grand Inquisitor Tomas de Torquemada (1420-98) responsible for
the elimination of 6,000 volumes at Salamanca alone.

Solomon Romano (1554) also burnt many thousands of Hebrew scrolls and, in
1559, every Hebrew book in the city of Prague was confiscated. The mass
destruction of Jewish books included hundreds of copies of the Old Testament
and caused the irretrievable loss of many original handwritten documents.

The oldest text of the Old Testament that survived, before the discovery of
the Dead Sea Scrolls" was said to be the Bodleian Codex (Oxford), which was
dated to circa 1100 AD. In an attempt by the church to remove damaging
Rabbinic information about Jesus Christ from the face of the earth, the
Inquisition burnt 12,000 volumes of the Talmud.

In 1607, forty-seven men (some records say fifty four) took two years and
nine months to re-write the Bible and make it ready for press. It was, by
the order of King James, issued with a set of personal 'rules' the
translators were to follow. Upon its completion in 1609, it was handed over
to the King James for his final approval. However, "It was self evident that
James was not competent to check their work and edit it, so he passed the
manuscripts onto the greatest genius of all time... Sir Francis Bacon"

The first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in Bacon's
possession for nearly a year. During that time ... "he hammered the various
styles of the translators into the unity, rhythm, and music of Shakespearean
prose, wrote the prefaces and created the whole scheme of the Authorized
Version. At the completion of the editing, King James ordered a 'dedication
to the King' to be drawn up and included in the opening pages. He also
wanted the phrase 'Appointed to be read in the churches' to appear on the
title page.
The King James Bible is considered by many today to be the 'original' Bible
and therefore 'genuine' and all later revisions simply counterfeits forged
by 'higher critics'. Others think the King James Bible is 'authentic' and
'authorized' and presents the original words of the authors as translated
into English from the 'original' Greek texts. However, as Tony points out,
the 'original' Greek text was not written until around the mid fourth
century and was a revised edition of writings compiled decades earlier in
Aramaic and Hebrew. Those earlier documents no longer exist and the Bibles
we have today are five linguistic removes from the first bibles written.
What was written in the 'original originals' is quite unknown. It is
important to remember that the words 'authorized' and 'original', as applied
to the Bible do not mean 'genuine', 'authentic' or 'true'.

By the early third century, it became well noted that a problem was
occurring .. politics! In 251AD, the number of Presbyter's (roving orator or
priest) writings had increased dramatically and bitter arguments raged
between opposing factions about their conflicting stories. According to
Presbyter Albius Theodoret (circa 255), there were "more than two hundred"
variant gospels in use in his time. In 313, groups of Presbyters and Biscops
(Bishops) violently clashed over the variations in their writings and "altar
was set against altar" in competing for an audience and territory.

When Emperor Constantine conquered the East in 324, he sent his Spanish
religious advisor, Osius of Cordoba, to Alexandria with letters to several
Biscops exhorting them to make peace among their own. But the mission failed
and Constantine, probably at the suggestions of Osius, then issued a decree
commanding all Presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules
and horses belonging to the public and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the
Roman province of Bithymia, the country of Asia. The Presbyters were
instructed by the Emperor to bring with them the manuscripts from which they
orated to the rabble (that's us!) "wrapped and bound in leather".
Constantine saw in this developing system of belief the opportunity to make
a combined state religion and protect it by law. The first general church
council was thus convened and the year was 325.

On 21 June, the day of the Summer Solstice, (and under those cult
conditions) a total of 2048 "presbyters, deacons, sub-deacons, acolytes and
exorcists" gathered at Nicaea to decide what Christianity really was, what
it would be, what writings were to be used and who was to be it's God.

Ancient church evidence established that a new 'god' was to be approved by
the Roman Emperor and an earlier attempt (circa 210) to deify either Judas
Khrestus or his twin brother Rabbi Jesus (or somebody else) had been
'declined'. Therefore, as late as 325, the Christian religion did not have
an official god.

After a long and bitter debate, a vote was finally taken and it was with a
majority show of hands that Judas Khrestus and Rabbi Jesus both became God
(161votes for and 157 votes against). The Emperor effectively joined
elements of the two individual life stories of the twin brothers into a
singular creation. The doctrine of the Celtic / British church of the west
was democratically attached to the Presbyters stories of the east.

A deification ceremony was then performed 'Apotheosis'. Thus the deified
ones were then called 'saviours' and looked upon as gods. Temples, altars,
and images with attributes of divinity were then erected and public holidays
proclaimed on their birthdays.

Following the original example set by the deification of Caesar, their
funerals were dramatized as the scene of their resurrection and immortality.
All these godly attributes passed as a legal right to Emperor Constantine's
new deity, Jesus Christ.

The Emperor then instructed Bishop Eusebius to compile a uniform collection
of new writings "bound together as one" using the stories from the large
collection of Presbyters as his reference source. Eusebius was to arrange
for the production of "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment
in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional
scribes thoroughly accomplished in the art". This was the first mention of
finished copies of a Christian 'New Testament' in the history of mankind.
As one can imagine, to condense the real life of the Jesus Christ, the
Church and His teachings with supporting evidence into a short article is
very difficult. It is therefore wise for those who wish to have supportable
evidence to read and study Tony Bushby's epic work, The Bible Fraud, along
with it's detailed blood lines (family trees) and over 869 references. (see
www.thebiblefraud.com)

However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325 AD, the
first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of twin
brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we now
know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but to
Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered by
Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the
Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was
initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of
Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world
today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as
a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and
moved to Lud, now London.

Tony believes the reason Jesus stole the Torah was that he said it contained
"a very special secret", which he was going to reveal that secret to the
world. He was stoned to death and the Torah taken from him before he could.

The elder brother, Judas Khrestus, with his "Khrestian" followers conspired
to take the throne of Rome, his royal birthright, and was captured, tried,
and was sentenced to be crucified. (The "Khrestians" and the Essenic army,
the Nazarenes, would today be likened to terrorists.) At the trial, Judas
exercised his royal birthright to have a replacement in Simon of Cyrene
(Luke 23:41) and then was sold as a slave to live out his days as a
carpenter in India.

Rabbi Jesus spent a considerable amount of time at the Palace of the British
in Rome and sometime around 48 AD, he left for Egypt to pursue his greatest
esoteric goal. The spiritual knowledge from his secret education in the
Essene and Druid movements was soon to be elevated to the highest level
possible - initiation into the innermost rite of the Egyptian temples.

It was probable that Rabbi Jesus' earlier initiation into both the Essene
and Druid schools played a major part in his acceptance into the Egyptian
school. The Druids could claim a very early origin and the essence of their
wisdom was also that of the Essenes. In the case of the Essenes, it is
possible to show that their movement was specifically established to
preserve secret information, for they knew and used the sacred writing of
the Initiates. The full meaning of the point being made by Bushby is that in
the case of all Secret Schools, the inner and ultimate Mystery was revealed
only to a High Initiate.
Those who were initiated into the Ancient mysteries took a solemn oath never
to reveal what had passed within the sacred walls. Every year only a
comparatively few Egyptian initiations were conducted, and the number of
persons who knew their secrets was never at any time large. The initiations
always took place with the onset of darkness and the candidate was entranced
for periods of varying length, depending upon the level of the degree for
which he had entered.

The first initiatory step involved a forty-day procedure that basically
involved purification, not only in physical form, but dissolving all
tendencies to evil thoughts, purifying the mind as well. It appears that he
would have fasted, alternatively on vegetables, juices and very special
herbal concoctions.

The New Testament recorded that this happened to Rabbi Jesus who "was led
into the desert.... and he fasted forty days and forty nights" (Matt.
4:1-2).
This trial period involved more than just fasting. During the forty days and
nights' ordeal, Tony says the candidate was required to study astronomical
charts to supplement his skills in astronomy and memorize charts of the
heavens. They were also given a particular ritual from which to memorize
certain passwords, secret signs and handclasps, skills that are still
practiced to this day in Freemasonry.

These initiations were not limited to Egypt. The ancient civilizations
inherited these Mysteries from a remote antiquity and they constituted part
of a primitive revelation from the gods to the human race. Almost every
people of pre-Christian times possessed its institution and tradition of the
mysteries. The Romans, the Druids of Britain, the Greeks, the Cretans, the
Syrians, the Hindus, the Persians, the Maya and the American Indians, among
others, had corresponding temples and rites with a system of graduated
illuminations for the initiates.

The modern world knows little of these ancient rites yet they were conducted
in a huge variety of buildings the world over.

The 'Towers' that are found throughout the East in Asia were directly
connected with the Mystery-initiations. The candidates for initiation were
placed in them for three days and three nights, whenever there was no temple
with a subterranean crypt close at hand.
In this aspect of the initiatory procedure, Tony points out a direct Gospel
parallel with Rabbi Jesus saying, "After three days I shall rise again", for
he knew the finishing process he was to undertake would take three days
being a symbol of the period of time required to complete a condition of
development. The ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic texts speak of an initiate as
'twice-born', and he was permitted to add to his name the words 'he who has
renewed his life', so that on some ancient tomb-inscriptions archaeologists
still discover these phases descriptive of the spiritual status of the
deceased person.
So little did the later Gospel writers understand the initiatory process
that they never perceived they were developing a story that included a
Rabbi's (and Arch Druid of Britain) experience in an Egyptian Mystery
School.

St Austin (c. 380) asserted that it was generally known in church circles
that Rabbi Jesus had been initiated in Egypt, and that "he wrote books
concerning magic". In the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Jews brought the same
accusation before Pontius Pilate, "Did we not tell you he was a magician?"
Celsus (c. 178) spoke of the same charge. In the Clementine Recognitions,
the accusation was brought against Rabbi Jesus that he did not perform any
miracles but practiced magic and carried about with him the figure of a
seated skeleton.
Jewish tradition invariably asserted that Rabbi Jesus learned 'magic' in
Egypt. Bushby says the kernel of this persistent accusation may perhaps be
reduced to the simple historical element that Rabbi Jesus went to Egypt and
returned with far wider and more enlightened views than those of his former
religious associates.

Now, I'm sure that many of you are having trouble grasping some of the ideas
presented in this article and I congratulate you on taking the effort to
read this far. We all need to demand our local Church, the Church scholars,
theologians and media make an open examination of the evidence compiled in
Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud. It may rattle some core beliefs but what is
more important to you .. the truth or what sits comfortably because it's
what you've known all you life?

I leave you with a quote from one of the conspirators.
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)


--
Andrew W.

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us. ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner



Roger Pearse
2004-10-30 06:10:32 EST
"Andrew W \(Paranormal Agnostic\)" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<4182e86c$0$32574$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> The Bible Fraud
> Book Review
> www.thebiblefraud.com

Another tawdry liar plugging his dishonest book? <sigh>

> When I first spoke to a close Christian friend of mine about the publishing
> of Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud, her reaction was one that many Christians
> have expressed, and one that made me aghast. She didn't want the book
> available because it would "persuade them away from the Bible and the word
> of God." ...

<yawn> My goodness, haven't we heard this before!?!! This is SO
STALE. As if every two-bit liar didn't make the same play!

> If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible" housed in
> the British Museum ...

Almost everyone knows that manuscripts of the New Testament exist from
the 3rd century on. The 4-5th century parchment codices are no longer
'the oldest known'.

> As Tony points out, the history of our 'genuine' Bibles is a convoluted one.
> Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as it was originally
> intended.

Scholars such as F.G.Kenyon think otherwise.

> In 1415 ...

Far too late to be of any relevance to anything.

> The oldest text of the Old Testament that survived, before the discovery of
> the Dead Sea Scrolls" was said to be the Bodleian Codex (Oxford), which was
> dated to circa 1100 AD. In an attempt by the church to remove damaging
> Rabbinic information about Jesus Christ from the face of the earth, the
> Inquisition burnt 12,000 volumes of the Talmud.

What 'damaging rabbinic information'? What is the difference between
these vague accusations and anti-semitic scare-mongering, except the
target?

> In 1607, forty-seven men (some records say fifty four) took two years and
> nine months to re-write the Bible and make it ready for press. It was, by
> the order of King James, issued with a set of personal 'rules' the
> translators were to follow.

Dear me. An anonymous poster says it online -- it must be true.

Since there is no real difference between the KJV and the Siniaticus,
in any point of importance for teaching, all this is simply garbage.

> into English from the 'original' Greek texts. However, as Tony points out,
> the 'original' Greek text was not written until around the mid fourth
> century and was a revised edition of writings compiled decades earlier in
> Aramaic and Hebrew.

I trust this waster will be advising all the scholars that the New
Testament was not, after all, written in Greek? :)

> According to
> Presbyter Albius Theodoret (circa 255), there were "more than two hundred"
> variant gospels in use in his time.

No such person exists.

> In 313, groups of Presbyters and Biscops
> (Bishops) violently clashed over the variations in their writings

No they did not. No such events occurred.

> The Presbyters were
> instructed by the Emperor to bring with them the manuscripts from which they
> orated to the rabble (that's us!) "wrapped and bound in leather".

No they were not.

> On 21 June, the day of the Summer Solstice, (and under those cult
> conditions) a total of 2048 "presbyters, deacons, sub-deacons, acolytes and
> exorcists" gathered at Nicaea to decide what Christianity really was, what
> it would be, what writings were to be used and who was to be it's God.

Complete nonsense. No such number is given in the ancient sources,
and the subject under discussion was whether or not the second person
of the trinity was of the same substance (homoousios) or a similar
substance to the first.

> Ancient church evidence established that a new 'god' was to be approved by
> the Roman Emperor and an earlier attempt (circa 210) to deify either Judas
> Khrestus or his twin brother Rabbi Jesus (or somebody else) had been
> 'declined'. Therefore, as late as 325, the Christian religion did not have
> an official god.

ROTFL!

> After a long and bitter debate, a vote was finally taken and it was with a
> majority show of hands that Judas Khrestus and Rabbi Jesus both became God
> (161votes for and 157 votes against).

No such story is to be found in the ancient sources, or anywhere else,
for that matter. This is complete fabrication.

> A deification ceremony was then performed 'Apotheosis'. Thus the deified
> ones were then called 'saviours' and looked upon as gods. Temples, altars,
> and images with attributes of divinity were then erected and public holidays
> proclaimed on their birthdays.

And this.

> The Emperor then instructed Bishop Eusebius to compile a uniform collection
> of new writings "bound together as one" using the stories from the large
> collection of Presbyters as his reference source. Eusebius was to arrange
> for the production of "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment
> in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional
> scribes thoroughly accomplished in the art". This was the first mention of
> finished copies of a Christian 'New Testament' in the history of mankind.

This is cunning fraud. Eusebius did not compile the NT. He ran a
scriptorium. He, and no doubt others, were instructed to furnish
copies for the new city of Constantinople. The rest is fabrication.
The term 'New Testament' appears in Tertullian, 130 years earlier.

> As one can imagine, to condense the real life of the Jesus Christ, the
> Church and His teachings with supporting evidence into a short article is
> very difficult.

And the author wanted to tell fairy stories instead, in the hope of
creating 'shock' so he could sell copies?

> It is therefore wise for those who wish to have supportable
> evidence to read and study Tony Bushby's epic work, The Bible Fraud, along
> with it's detailed blood lines (family trees) and over 869 references. (see
> www.thebiblefraud.com)

"Buy one now! Buy one now!". <laughter>

> However, attempting to summarize what Tony has written..... in 325 AD, the
> first Christian council was called at Nicaea to bring the stories of twin
> brothers, Jesus 'the Rabbi' and Judas Khrestus into one deity that we now
> know as Jesus Christ. Tony says they were not born of virgin birth but to
> Nabatean Arab Mariamne Herod (now known as the Virgin Mary) and fathered by
> Tiberius ben Panthera, a Roman Centurion. The brothers were raised in the
> Essene community and became Khrists of their faith. Rabbi Jesus later was
> initiated in Egypt at the highest of levels similar to the 33rd degree of
> Freemasonry of which many Prime ministers and Presidents around the world
> today are members. He then later married three wives, one of whom we know as
> a Mary Magdalene, a Druidic Princess, stole the Torah from the temple and
> moved to Lud, now London.

<chuckle>

[various stale lies about Jesus and pagan initiation snipped]

> The New Testament recorded that this happened to Rabbi Jesus who "was led
> into the desert.... and he fasted forty days and forty nights" (Matt.
> 4:1-2).

But you've just told us that this NT is not authentic, but a later
composition! How can it be evidence, then?

Dear old 'Tony' is lying so fast that he can't keep his story
straight.

> The modern world knows little of these ancient rites ...

So 'Tony' had to make something up...

> In this aspect of the initiatory procedure, Tony points out a direct Gospel
> parallel with Rabbi Jesus saying, "After three days I shall rise again", ..

Tony, you're getting confused. Remember, you've just 'proved' that
the stuff in this is all a later forgery.

> St Austin (c. 380)

<chuckle> What an old-fashioned way to talk about St. Augustine!

> asserted that it was generally known in church circles
> that Rabbi Jesus had been initiated in Egypt, and that "he wrote books
> concerning magic".

Nonsense. Produce the reference or apologise for telling lies.
Augustine's works are largely online, so we can check!

> Now, I'm sure that many of you are having trouble grasping some of the ideas
> presented in this article ...

On the contrary, all of us are laughing our socks off! What a load of
tripe. And you thought you might actually sell this to someone?
Still, I can understand you targetting the dimwits. No-one is going
to buy this, after all.

> and I congratulate you on taking the effort to
> read this far.

Not least because you write so badly.

> We all need to demand our local Church, the Church scholars,
> theologians and media make an open examination of the evidence compiled in
> Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud.

"Buy one now! Buy one now!". <laughter>

> It may rattle some core beliefs but what is
> more important to you .. the truth or what sits comfortably because it's
> what you've known all you life?

<chuckle>

> I leave you with a quote from one of the conspirators.
> "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
> been for us." Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Sadly for you, almost everyone knows that Leo said nothing of the
kind. It's a pity you took it as your own motto.

Isn't it curious that such stories are always told by people with
integrity issues?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Andrew W \Paranormal Agnostic\
2004-10-30 17:01:24 EST
The amount of truth that Tony Bushby's book has in it no one knows, but
there is one thing that most people, particularly scholars (the
non-Christian/biased/apologetic kind) agree on is that Constantine and
others picked and chose what parts of the scriptures *they* wanted to go
into the bible according to *their* political agenda and desires at the
time. I don't believe that the bible has as much to do with God's will as it
does the will of the country leaders of the region of that time.


--
Andrew W.

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us. ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner



Paul Murray
2004-10-31 06:58:33 EST

> If we examine the oldest known Bible to date, the "Sinai Bible" housed in
> the British Museum (I believe that, during his many years of research,
> Tony had a private viewing of this priceless book), we find a staggering
> 14,800 differences from today's Bible and yet it still remains the word of
> God?

You mean the bits where they expurgated the book of Isaiah? How the bible as
we know it has had all those prophecies which didn't conme to pass removed?



Beowulf
2004-10-31 09:59:59 EST
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 03:10:32 -0700, Roger Pearse wrote:
..
> Another tawdry liar plugging his dishonest book? <sigh>
>
..

Well gee wouldn't it have been also nice, if the "Church" had not had
thousands of books of ancient information burned at the largest library in
the world, that is the Library at Alexandria, Egypt, so that we might know
more about what is truth or not?

Maybe you can or can not trust this new book, but hmmm maybe because of
lack or corroboration and such you can not trust the "Bible" as a book;
and even a shred of doubt means it is worthless as regrards telling a
credible story of a "risen saviour".



Roger Pearse
2004-11-02 13:05:31 EST
Beowulf <beowulf@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.10.31.14.59.58.2655@nowhere.net>...
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 03:10:32 -0700, Roger Pearse wrote:
> ..
> > Another tawdry liar plugging his dishonest book? <sigh>
> >
> ..
>
> Well gee wouldn't it have been also nice, if the "Church" had not had
> thousands of books of ancient information burned at the largest library in
> the world, that is the Library at Alexandria, Egypt, so that we might know
> more about what is truth or not?

Would it not be nice if, for once, an atheist got his facts straight?
No such event took place. If you want to argue, cite ancient sources
only.

> Maybe you can or can not trust this new book, but hmmm maybe because of
> lack or corroboration and such you can not trust the "Bible" as a book;
> and even a shred of doubt means it is worthless as regrards telling a
> credible story of a "risen saviour".

Obscurantism noted. It certainly explains why atheist regimes in our
day were such enthusiastic book burners!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

R. Berry
2004-11-03 17:28:41 EST
Beowulf wrote:

> Well gee wouldn't it have been also nice, if the "Church" had not had
> thousands of books of ancient information burned at the largest library in
> the world, that is the Library at Alexandria, Egypt, so that we might know
> more about what is truth or not?

Then of course, Roger Pearse writes:

>Would it not be nice if, for once, an atheist got his facts straight?
>No such event took place. If you want to argue, cite ancient >sources.

Notice how Roger always says ancient sources only.
Because to Roger is it's old, it has to be true.

But just to satisfy the little whiner.

The Temple of Serapis
"Its splendour is such that mere words can only do it an injustice but its
great halls of columns and its wealth of lifelike statues and other works of
art make it, next to the Capitol, which is the symbol of the eternity of
immemorial Rome, the most magnificent building in the whole world. It
contained two priceless libraries."

Ammianus Marcellinus, The Later Roman Empire (XXII.16)

Can you read that Roger. It comtained two priceless libraries!!
Got that.

Eunapius, who died about AD 414, bitterly exclaims that, in demolishing the
temple, the Christians stole statues and votive offerings. "Only the floor
of the temple of Serapis they did not take, simply because of the weight of
the stones which were not easy to remove from their place."

Amazing isn't it Roger. He says that they took everything, except the floor
of the temple.

Need some more:

The Temple of Serapis, which had stood for more than six centuries, was
demolished, to be replaced by a martyr's shrine and a church. Theophilus
then had the other temples in the city razed to the ground, "almost column
by column." The images of the gods, records Socrates, were melted down to be
made into pots and other utensils for the church, except for one statue of
the god, which Theophilus had set up as a public reminder that such images
ever had been worshipped.

More:

And so it was: when, in AD 423, Honorius and Theodosius issued one of their
final edicts (CTh. XVI.10.22) regarding pagans, they felt obliged to remark
that "We now believe that there are none." They and their ancient temples
were no more.

There are your sources, little man.
Now you check them to your hearts content.



Roger Pearse
2004-11-04 12:19:15 EST
"R. Berry" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message news:<tYcid.90406$9b.42823@edtnps84>...
> Beowulf wrote:
>
> > Well gee wouldn't it have been also nice, if the "Church" had not had
> > thousands of books of ancient information burned at the largest library in
> > the world, that is the Library at Alexandria, Egypt, so that we might know
> > more about what is truth or not?
>
> Then of course, Roger Pearse writes:
>
> >Would it not be nice if, for once, an atheist got his facts straight?
> >No such event took place. If you want to argue, cite ancient >sources.
>
> Notice how Roger always says ancient sources only.

Indeed. Why? Because if something actually happened in the past,
there is only one way we will know about it. That is, that an account
exists in some ancient source. (Inscriptions and archaeology can come
in also, but not for most of the things people argue about online).

So if someone tells me (e.g.) that Numa Pompilius dressed up as a
donkey, there are two choices: some ancient source says so, or else
someone is lying (in fairness, mostly likely repeating something in
good faith read elsewhere).

The obvious way to deal with all the nonsense that circulates online
about matters of fact is to ask to see the evidence. After all, vast
numbers of ancient texts are now online. When a statement has no
source, regard it with deep suspicion, particularly when, as here, it
is made to insult or incite hate.

I can't speak for anyone else, but regardless of religion that seems
the best approach to me.

> Because to Roger is it's old, it has to be true.
>
> But just to satisfy the little whiner.
>
> The Temple of Serapis
> "Its splendour is such that mere words can only do it an injustice but its
> great halls of columns and its wealth of lifelike statues and other works of
> art make it, next to the Capitol, which is the symbol of the eternity of
> immemorial Rome, the most magnificent building in the whole world. It
> contained two priceless libraries."
>
> Ammianus Marcellinus, The Later Roman Empire (XXII.16)
>
> Can you read that Roger. It comtained two priceless libraries!!
> Got that.

You are asserting that the famous library of Alexandria was contained
in the Serapeum? By all means demonstrate this improbable assertion.

> Eunapius, who died about AD 414, bitterly exclaims that, in demolishing the
> temple, the Christians stole statues and votive offerings. "Only the floor
> of the temple of Serapis they did not take, simply because of the weight of
> the stones which were not easy to remove from their place."

Note the lack of reference.

> Amazing isn't it Roger. He says that they took everything, except the floor
> of the temple.

Yes?

> Need some more:

Need *something*. All you have so far is that in late antiquity the
temples were closed and their contents removed. I think we all knew
this. Since people of your religious opinion wish to do the same to
churches, I am unsure of the point of all this.

> The Temple of Serapis, which had stood for more than six centuries, was
> demolished, to be replaced by a martyr's shrine and a church. Theophilus
> then had the other temples in the city razed to the ground, "almost column
> by column." The images of the gods, records Socrates, were melted down to be
> made into pots and other utensils for the church, except for one statue of
> the god, which Theophilus had set up as a public reminder that such images
> ever had been worshipped.

Not ancient sources.

> More:
>
> And so it was: when, in AD 423, Honorius and Theodosius issued one of their
> final edicts (CTh. XVI.10.22) regarding pagans, they felt obliged to remark
> that "We now believe that there are none." They and their ancient temples
> were no more.
>
> There are your sources, little man.
> Now you check them to your hearts content.

None of which support the point made.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse
2004-11-04 12:20:55 EST
"Andrew W \(Paranormal Agnostic\)" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<41840121$0$32541$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> The amount of truth that Tony Bushby's book has in it no one knows, but
> there is one thing that most people, particularly scholars (the
> non-Christian/biased/apologetic kind) agree on is that Constantine and
> others picked and chose what parts of the scriptures *they* wanted to go
> into the bible according to *their* political agenda and desires at the
> time.

'most people'? Is there a single person with a teaching post in New
Testament Studies in the world who holds such a view? (Surely at
least one?)

No such events took place.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Andrew W \Paranormal Agnostic\
2004-11-04 15:35:35 EST
"Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3a88eeea.0411040920.5a277eb4@posting.google.com...
> "Andrew W \(Paranormal Agnostic\)" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au>
> wrote in message news:<41840121$0$32541$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...
>> The amount of truth that Tony Bushby's book has in it no one knows, but
>> there is one thing that most people, particularly scholars (the
>> non-Christian/biased/apologetic kind) agree on is that Constantine and
>> others picked and chose what parts of the scriptures *they* wanted to go
>> into the bible according to *their* political agenda and desires at the
>> time.
>
> 'most people'? Is there a single person with a teaching post in New
> Testament Studies in the world who holds such a view? (Surely at
> least one?)
>
> No such events took place.


Are you saying that Constantine's council of Nicaea was fiction?


--
Andrew W. (Paranormal Agnostic) An interest in the paranormal (spiritual)
but with acknowledgement that it's existence can neither be proved nor
disproved (agnostic).


"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us." ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner


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