Bible Discussion: Is The NT The Word Of Jesus?

Is The NT The Word Of Jesus?
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SirBants
2004-08-24 22:29:11 EST
Is this just?

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to
those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering
because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive
a beating for doing wrong and endure it?

But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable
before God.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an
example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).

SB



Gnos Theos
2004-08-25 02:34:20 EST
"SirBants" <SB@miny.com> wrote in message news:<EqqdnT0xv-O2ZLbcRVn-iw@comcast.com>...
> Is this just?
>
> "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to
> those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
>
> For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering
> because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive
> a beating for doing wrong and endure it?
>
> But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable
> before God.
>
> To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an
> example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).
>
> SB

God is the ultimate contrarian. This is not because God wants you
to endure suffering, but rather instructions on how to deal with
suffering. Unfortunately, people are not converted by witty arguments.
They are converted when they see that your faith is real. How do
they know your faith is real? When they see you retain your faith
in the midst of suffering. God is not condoning the situation,
but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
the master became a Christian, he set the slave free. So the
hope is that your suffering is for the repentance of your master,
and your freedom. It seems strange to us, but is logical if
you consider it from the evangelistic standpoint. Now there
is the chance that your master never becomes a Christian, and
you simply suffer. Nonetheless, consider the Joseph in Genesis
when he was in prison, and God softened the hearts his masters.
Also Daniel in Babylon. What seems like a bleak situation, can
be turned into faith testing/building experience.

John Ings
2004-08-25 08:48:20 EST
On 24 Aug 2004 23:34:20 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:

>They are converted when they see that your faith is real. How do
>they know your faith is real? When they see you retain your faith
>in the midst of suffering.

Clinging stubbornly to a belief in the face of contrary evidence in
other words. By that standard we should all still believe the earth is
flat as the Bible writers declared.

> God is not condoning the situation,
>but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
>to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
>suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
>the master became a Christian, he set the slave free.

That's not what Philemon says.
Can't you even get your own scripture straight?

## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.



Gnos Theos
2004-08-25 15:01:37 EST
John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<v92pi0t78qvsgcac279eh6knlm9jvdq4rr@4ax.com>...
> On 24 Aug 2004 23:34:20 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:
>
> >They are converted when they see that your faith is real. How do
> >they know your faith is real? When they see you retain your faith
> >in the midst of suffering.
>
> Clinging stubbornly to a belief in the face of contrary evidence in
> other words. By that standard we should all still believe the earth is
> flat as the Bible writers declared.
>

The flat earth crap came from a novel. I suppose in 100 years
some idiot will find "The da Vinci Code", and think that rubbish
is fact as well. The dispute was not over whether the earth was
round, or a sphere, it was over how big the sphere was. The
earth being a sphere has been know since antiquity. It can be
proved geometrically. Anyway, since you like rabbit holes, find a
verse with "flat earth" in it. There is not verse which says
specifically that the earth is flat, you have to infer that, but
you could just as esily infer a spherical earth since it is
ambiguous.

I realise that people are wicked and mistreat others. In ancient
times slavery was very different. It was much like a job today.
Lots of people were slaves, and did not have any real legal options.
Nonetheless the best thing to do was to be a good servant, as
that was the fastest way out, and left you with a good reputation
that would be beneficial to your testimony later. In fact a lot
of slaves earned, through hard work, their way out of slavery.
A slave was not necessarily a slave for a life time. It was very
different from what we think of as slavery.

Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained
I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

You could work hard, and purchase your freedom, but if you were
a bad servant, you left a bad reputation for Christ, and could
be put to death. You should study the history a little more, and
understand the historical context.

Typical of scoffers, I give you facts, and you give me arguments
and musings. It is not really a fair exchange. Hence the folly
of talking to non-Christians, yet I still do it in the hopes that
I may meet in Heaven even 1 atheist that will say, "thanks to your
obedience I am here".

> > God is not condoning the situation,
> >but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
> >to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
> >suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
> >the master became a Christian, he set the slave free.
>
> That's not what Philemon says.

Philemon 1:16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother
beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the
flesh, and in the Lord?

It is sad that as time has gone by, we have become more cruel,
and more stupid.

> Can't you even get your own scripture straight?
>
> ## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
> ## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.

John Ings
2004-08-25 15:36:55 EST
On 25 Aug 2004 12:01:37 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:

>> Clinging stubbornly to a belief in the face of contrary evidence in
>> other words. By that standard we should all still believe the earth is
>> flat as the Bible writers declared.
>
>The flat earth crap came from a novel.

Yeah. A novel called the Bible, mostly fiction.

> I suppose in 100 years
>some idiot will find "The da Vinci Code", and think that rubbish
>is fact as well. The dispute was not over whether the earth was
>round, or a sphere, it was over how big the sphere was.

That was long after the Bible was written.

>The earth being a sphere has been know since antiquity.

By the Greeks. Not the Hebrews.

>It can be
>proved geometrically. Anyway, since you like rabbit holes, find a
>verse with "flat earth" in it. There is not verse which says
>specifically that the earth is flat, you have to infer that, but
>you could just as esily infer a spherical earth since it is
>ambiguous.

In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is
immovable and set on pillars.

Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to
make the earth.

(Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the
world's first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was
there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the
ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle, but that
is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible. A flat
round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture
yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth
as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the
horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.

Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down
on it's inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.

(Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and
its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens
like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew
word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author
would have been aware of the earth's spherical nature.

Here the author of Daniel writes of a dream of Nebuchadnezzar where a
tree grows at the "center" of the earth. Assuming that the tree grew
on the surface, this is most certainly the center of a flat earth as a
spherical earth would have no center on it's surface. Also notice that
the tree grew so tall it's top reached heaven and was visible to the
"ends of the earth". So these verses indicate that Nebuchadnezzar and
the author of Daniel pictured a flat earth as everyone else did in
their time.

(Dan 4:10-11 NRSV) Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at
the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great
and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends
of the whole earth.

Here it is possible that this gospel author still imagined a flat
earth as Jesus is able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a
high mountain. This would not be possible on a spherical earth.

(Mat 4:8 NRSV) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and
showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;

Here the author of Job imagines that God could take the edges of the
earth and shake the wicked out of it.

(Job 38:13 NIV) that it might take the earth by the edges and shake
the wicked out of it?

Here the author of Job is saying something is longer than the earth. A
flat earth with ends could be compared for length, but longer has no
meaning for a spherical earth.

(Job 11:9 NRSV) Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than
the sea.

One end of a flat earth to the other end of a flat earth is mentioned
here (a spherical earth had no ends).

(Deu 13:7 NRSV) any of the gods of the peoples that are around you,
whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to
the other,

Again, some would say that the ends of the earth is not be taken
literally and that would be true today, but the phrase is leftover
from when people used to really believe the earth had ends, which was
the case for the ancient Hebrews and most everyone else at that time.

Here is a few more verses that mention the ends of the earth

Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job
37:3,
Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa
59:13, Psa
61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8

The Bible's immovable earth set on pillars

Here the earth is imagined to be set on pillars and immovable.

(Psa 93:1 NRSV) ... He has established the world; it shall never be
moved;

(1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on
them he has set the world.

(Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the
foundations of the earth tremble.

The Bible's solid sky dome

Here God is imagined to create a solid sky dome that seperates the
waters into two parts. One would become the oceans and the other would
remain above the solid sky dome to provide an explanation of where
water came from to cause clouds and rain in the absence of the
knowledge of evaporation.

(Gen 1:6-7 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of
the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome
from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.

Here is another verse which mentions the water above the sky dome.

(Psa 148:4 NRSV) Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above
the heavens!

Here celestial bodies are attached to this sky dome.

(Gen 1:14-17 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of
the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs
and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the
dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made
the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser
light to rule the night--and the stars. God set them in the dome of
the sky to give light upon the earth,

Notice that the lights, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are set
inside the sky dome.

Here it is mentioned that the sky dome is hard.

(Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a
molten mirror?

(Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above, ...

God is imagined to walk on top of the sky dome.

(Job 22:14 NRSV) Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and
he walks on the dome of heaven.'

The sky is imagined as something that has to
open to let things pass through it

Here notice that heaven has to be "opened" for things to pass through,
things in and above heaven to be seen, and for rainwater to come
through. One would think that would not be necessary unless the sky
was imagined to be solid. Some would say that this was not be taken
literaly, but the sky was imagined to be solid in most cultures for
over 1500 years after the last books of the bible were written.

(John 1:51 NRSV) And he said to him, "Very truly, I tell you, you will
see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon
the Son of Man."

(Acts 10:11 NRSV) He saw the heaven opened and something like a large
sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.

(Acts 7:56 NRSV) "Look," he said, "I see the heavens opened and the
Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

(Mat 3:16-17 NRSV) And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came
up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw
the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a
voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am
well pleased."

(2 Chr 6:26 NRSV) "When heaven (same Hebrew word as sky) is shut up
and there is no rain because...

(Psa 78:23 NRSV) Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the
doors of heaven (same Hebrew word as sky);

(Mal 3:10 NRSV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that
there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the
LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you
and pour down for you an overflowing blessing. (talking about rain for
crops)

(Rev 11:6 NRSV) They have authority to shut the sky, so that no rain
may fall during the days of their prophesying,

(Gen 7:11-12 NRSV) In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the
fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the
heavens were opened. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty
nights.

Joshua commands the Sun to stand still in the sky

Here Joshua was imagined to have commanded the Sun and the Moon to
stand still over particular geographic locations like a helecoptor
could be imagined to hover over a particular moutain or valley as if
the Sun and the Moon were only a few miles high instead of 93 million
(Sun) and 1/4 million (Moon) miles away. To the author the Sun and the
Moon were attached to a rotating solid sky dome, just a few miles
above his head.

(Josh 10:12-13 NRSV) On the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over
to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight
of Israel, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of
Aijalon."

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took
vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar?
The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a
whole day.

If you calculate the trigonometry involved, to have the sun stand over
Gibeon, and the moon stand still over Aijalon, the two would have to
be at a height of no more than 15 miles above a flat earth.

And finally we have the nativity story, where three magi are said to
have followed a star whose motion was retrograde, west to east instead
of vice versa, until it stopped over the place where the Holy Family
was. A possibility only if the earth is flat.

>I realise that people are wicked and mistreat others. In ancient
>times slavery was very different. It was much like a job today.

Bullshit! Can you beat an employee almost to death?

Exodus 21:20-21
"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at
his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two,
no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

>Lots of people were slaves, and did not have any real legal options.
>Nonetheless the best thing to do was to be a good servant, as
>that was the fastest way out,

When you were a field hand, working in a mine
or pulling an oar on a galley?

>and left you with a good reputation
>that would be beneficial to your testimony later. In fact a lot
>of slaves earned, through hard work, their way out of slavery.

But far more lived in misery and died young.

>A slave was not necessarily a slave for a life time. It was very
>different from what we think of as slavery.

Leviticus 25:44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have,
it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female
slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing
with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been
born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them
as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as
property.

>Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained
>I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

>You could work hard, and purchase your freedom,

If you were in a position where you could earn money,
like a household servant, but that's hard to do if you're
chained to an oar.

>but if you were
>a bad servant, you left a bad reputation for Christ, and could
>be put to death. You should study the history a little more, and
>understand the historical context.

You need to take your own advice. For every household slave living
well and having a chance to earn his freedom there were a hundred in
the fields under an overseer's whip.

>Typical of scoffers, I give you facts, and you give me arguments
>and musings.

Your 'facts' are pretty wobbly...

> It is not really a fair exchange.

And you're SO humble...

>Hence the folly
>of talking to non-Christians, yet I still do it in the hopes that
>I may meet in Heaven even 1 atheist that will say, "thanks to your
>obedience I am here".

If heaven is full of sanctimoneous people like you I don't think I
want to go there.

>> > God is not condoning the situation,
>> >but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
>> >to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
>> >suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
>> >the master became a Christian, he set the slave free.
>>
>> That's not what Philemon says.
>
>Philemon 1:16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother
>beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the
>flesh, and in the Lord?

Philemon 1:8 For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to
command you to do your duty, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the
basis of love—and I, Paul, do this as an old man, and now also as a
prisoner of Christ Jesus 10 I am appealing to you for my child,
Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11
Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful both to
you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to
you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me, so that he might be of service
to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel; 14 but I
preferred to do nothing without your consent, in order that your good
deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is
the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might
have him back forever, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave,
a beloved brother—especially to me but how much more to you, both in
the flesh and in the Lord.

This a plea for Onesimus to be freed. We have no evidence Philemon
agreed to free his escaped slave.

>It is sad that as time has gone by, we have become more cruel,
>and more stupid.

Yeah, it only took another 17 centuries for Christians to catch on
that slavery was evil.

>> Can't you even get your own scripture straight?

Well?

>> ## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
>> ## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.


Gnos Theos
2004-08-26 04:35:30 EST
I am going to answer some of these, all of these problems
have been reconciled long ago. I am not necessarily responding
for your sake, but others who might read this.

John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<47ppi0d5mkq5dg3q5rk7978k2qv93mp8qh@4ax.com>...
> On 25 Aug 2004 12:01:37 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:
>
> >> Clinging stubbornly to a belief in the face of contrary evidence in
> >> other words. By that standard we should all still believe the earth is
> >> flat as the Bible writers declared.
> >
> >The flat earth crap came from a novel.
>
> Yeah. A novel called the Bible, mostly fiction.

http://www.1worldglobes.com/ancientcoinsarticle.htm

You cannot use the dumbest modern as an example of
the smartest ancient.

>
> > I suppose in 100 years
> >some idiot will find "The da Vinci Code", and think that rubbish
> >is fact as well. The dispute was not over whether the earth was
> >round, or a sphere, it was over how big the sphere was.
>
> That was long after the Bible was written.
>
> >The earth being a sphere has been know since antiquity.
>
> By the Greeks. Not the Hebrews.
>
> >It can be
> >proved geometrically. Anyway, since you like rabbit holes, find a
> >verse with "flat earth" in it. There is not verse which says
> >specifically that the earth is flat, you have to infer that, but
> >you could just as esily infer a spherical earth since it is
> >ambiguous.
>
> In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is
> immovable and set on pillars.

I I use the earth as the reference frame, then it is stationary.
Maybe the Ancient Hebrew understood relativity. All motion is
relative, and you really cannot say this is in motion, and that is
standing still. There is this whole problem in relativity. This
is why it was so hard to convince people of heliocentrism, because
you can explain motion in terms of multiple reference frames.

>
> Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to
> make the earth.
>
> (Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the
> world's first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was
> there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
>

My little girl drew a calk circle in the drive way, it didn't make
the earth flat. Besides the world for circle can sometimes be
translated circuit. This could be talking about ocean currents.
The Hebrew is often ambiguous, and can be interpreted many ways.
All translations involve some interpretation.

> A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the
> ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle, but that
> is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible. A flat
> round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture
> yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth
> as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the
> horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.
>
> Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down
> on it's inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.
>
> (Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and
> its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens
> like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
>

This is the tranlation that Gerome used in one of his translations.
However He was confused as to how to translate this, and translated
it slightly differently in two different versions. It is my opinion
that it could be translated as

He that dwelleth above the circuit(H2329) of the the earth, ...

I started on a page to deal with this very issue, so thank you
for cutting and pasting this page, it saves me time looking up the
verses.

I am not a Hebrew scholar, but the word there for circle is only used
three times in the bible, so the meaning is not clear. In the book
of Job, it is translated circuit, but it is the same word/sense so
far as I know. Here is the link to a Hebrew concordance so you can
see that circuit is a proper translation.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?strongs=02329&page=1

This is even more profound for it means that Isaiah was ahead of
Copernicus. It is too bad that others do not use this translation
instead, or that others do not understand this.

> Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew
> word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author
> would have been aware of the earth's spherical nature.
>

Yes but this statement is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a couple
different ways.

> Here the author of Daniel writes of a dream of Nebuchadnezzar where a
> tree grows at the "center" of the earth. Assuming that the tree grew
> on the surface, this is most certainly the center of a flat earth as a
> spherical earth would have no center on it's surface. Also notice that
> the tree grew so tall it's top reached heaven and was visible to the
> "ends of the earth". So these verses indicate that Nebuchadnezzar and
> the author of Daniel pictured a flat earth as everyone else did in
> their time.
>
> (Dan 4:10-11 NRSV) Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at
> the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great
> and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends
> of the whole earth.
>

This is symbolic, and not literal. It just signifies that Babylon was
a world empire. Also the word for earth has many meanings, dry land,
Israel, a country, or potentially what we think of as the earth.

Genesis 1
10 And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of
the waters He hath called `Seas;' and God seeth that [it is] good.
http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Genesis+1%3A10&version=YLT

The problem is you interpret the words and expressions with a western
mind set. The Bible is a eastern book, with eastern expressions
written
in a language that just does not translate to english well. You cannot
understand the Bible without God's help, or the Holy Spirit.

> Here it is possible that this gospel author still imagined a flat
> earth as Jesus is able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a
> high mountain. This would not be possible on a spherical earth.
>
> (Mat 4:8 NRSV) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and
> showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;
>

Here again the word world could just mean "land". Anyway if you
don't want to accept the Bible, there is nothing I can do to dissuade
you. I could go through each one here, but I would rather put it
in a web page and copyright it. So you have my permission to strut
with you nose stuck up in the air right into Hell.

When you encounter a verse like this, you have to go back and look at
the secondary meanings of the words. Translators are often just
hirelings, and pick the first meaning of the word. Anyway, you fail
to realize that both Jesus and Satan are supernatural and not limited
as you and I are.

> Here the author of Job imagines that God could take the edges of the
> earth and shake the wicked out of it.
>
> (Job 38:13 NIV) that it might take the earth by the edges and shake
> the wicked out of it?

Earth is dry land, the ends of the "dry land" is the coastline.
I am sorry but if you connect Asia to North America at the bering
straight you can walk from one end of the "dry land" to the other.
Say Spain to Argentina. If you lower the water level a little bit
the world is truly one contiguous piece of dry land. Get a good
world atlas and look at the continental shelfs.

>
> Here the author of Job is saying something is longer than the earth. A
> flat earth with ends could be compared for length, but longer has no
> meaning for a spherical earth.
>
> (Job 11:9 NRSV) Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than
> the sea.
>
> One end of a flat earth to the other end of a flat earth is mentioned
> here (a spherical earth had no ends).
>
> (Deu 13:7 NRSV) any of the gods of the peoples that are around you,
> whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to
> the other,
>
> Again, some would say that the ends of the earth is not be taken
> literally and that would be true today, but the phrase is leftover
> from when people used to really believe the earth had ends, which was
> the case for the ancient Hebrews and most everyone else at that time.
>
> Here is a few more verses that mention the ends of the earth
>

The "ends of the earth" really means "the ends of the dry land",
which would be the coast lines.

> Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job
> 37:3,
> Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa
> 59:13, Psa
> 61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8
>
> The Bible's immovable earth set on pillars
>
> Here the earth is imagined to be set on pillars and immovable.
>
> (Psa 93:1 NRSV) ... He has established the world; it shall never be
> moved;
>
> (1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on
> them he has set the world.
>
> (Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the
> foundations of the earth tremble.
>
> The Bible's solid sky dome
>
> Here God is imagined to create a solid sky dome that seperates the
> waters into two parts. One would become the oceans and the other would
> remain above the solid sky dome to provide an explanation of where
> water came from to cause clouds and rain in the absence of the
> knowledge of evaporation.
>
> (Gen 1:6-7 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of
> the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
>

The NRSV is not a good translation.

Genesis 1
6 And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and
let it be separating between waters and waters.'
7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters
which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the
expanse: and it is so.
http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Genesis+1%3A6-7&version=YLT

> So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome
> from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
>
> Here is another verse which mentions the water above the sky dome.
>
> (Psa 148:4 NRSV) Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above
> the heavens!
>

Have you ever heard of fluid dynamics? Gases and liguids are called
fluids. Heavens does not mean what you think, there are 3 heavens
2 Corinthians 12:2

1. Atmosphere.
2. Outer space.
3. God's throne.

God is hinting at the vapor canopy. Yes I am aware of the problems
we have understanding this. I think that with the appropriate research
the problems could be solved.

Just because you don't understand a verse does not mean there is no
one else who does. This is why it is so crucial that a Christian
become a disciple of someone who is spirit filled, and understands
these things. But even more important is for the Christian to grow
and become a disciple of Christ lead by the Holy Spirit. There are
always going to be things that people do not understand. How can
God explain things taht are too wonderful for us to understand. God
has to use things that we can understand, to explain the things we
cannot. It is a serious conundrum.

You are also mistaking persperctive as error. I say the sun rose
in the morning and went across the sky, and you understand full
well what I am talking about. Yet you see a similar phrase in the
Bible and suddenly, you have a problem. Yet I am sure you have used
similar expressions without beleiving the nonsense that you're
quibbling about now.

> Here celestial bodies are attached to this sky dome.
>
> (Gen 1:14-17 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of
> the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs
> and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the
> dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made
> the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser
> light to rule the night--and the stars. God set them in the dome of
> the sky to give light upon the earth,
>
> Notice that the lights, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are set
> inside the sky dome.
>

I have no clue why the translated it Dome. I recommend using
Young's Literal Translation. Not every translator even beleives
the Bible. It is like asking someone who hates you to translate
your book to another language. Do you think they will do a good
job? Maybe, maybe not.

> Here it is mentioned that the sky dome is hard.
>
> (Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a
> molten mirror?

The book of Job is largely the incorrect arguments of Job's
4 sore comforters. These are the words of Elihu, and not God.
While there are a lot of truths in Job, it is not until Chapter
38 that God Speaks. So nice try. I suppose you think you can become
like God as well. You must look at who is speaking for the words
of Satan are recorded in the Bible.

Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing
good and evil.

So I suppose you recommend using the words of evil men that
are recorded in the Bible as doctrine.

>
> (Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above, ...
>
> God is imagined to walk on top of the sky dome.
>
> (Job 22:14 NRSV) Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and
> he walks on the dome of heaven.'
>
> The sky is imagined as something that has to
> open to let things pass through it
>
> Here notice that heaven has to be "opened" for things to pass through,
> things in and above heaven to be seen, and for rainwater to come
> through. One would think that would not be necessary unless the sky
> was imagined to be solid. Some would say that this was not be taken
> literaly, but the sky was imagined to be solid in most cultures for
> over 1500 years after the last books of the bible were written.
>
> (John 1:51 NRSV) And he said to him, "Very truly, I tell you, you will
> see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon
> the Son of Man."
>

He is refering to the dream Jacob had, but then I would not expect
you to understand that. You cannot interpret the New Testament in
absense of the Old Testment. Most like he was reading this very
passage, or meditating on it. Jesus was letting him know that he
not only saw him, but also his thoughts. It was a sign to convince
him to follow Jesus.

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth,
and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God
ascending
and descending on it.

How do you expect to understand the most complex, and rich symbolic
book
of all times on your own? Men have spent their entire lives studying
the
symbolism in the Bible. I am sorry, but without God's helper, the
Holy Spirit you are just not going to see the symbolism. I have been
studying the Bible many years, and have barely scratched the surface
of its
majesty. It is the most wonderfully complex book in all the world.
Only those who humble themselves before God are given the gift of
understanding.

> (Acts 10:11 NRSV) He saw the heaven opened and something like a large
> sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.
>
> (Acts 7:56 NRSV) "Look," he said, "I see the heavens opened and the
> Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
>

He had a vision as he was being accepted into Heaven. You are really
slow. I am sure that you probably did not even examine
any of these verse but just cut, and pasted them to waste my time.
I wonder whose copyright you violated.

> (Mat 3:16-17 NRSV) And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came
> up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw
> the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a
> voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am
> well pleased."
>

A vision. Again, it is symbolic, eventhough John literally saw
a dove. The Dove was symbolic, and why cannot God manipulate
something He created?

> (2 Chr 6:26 NRSV) "When heaven (same Hebrew word as sky) is shut up
> and there is no rain because...
>

Expression.

> (Psa 78:23 NRSV) Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the
> doors of heaven (same Hebrew word as sky);
>

Poetic.

> (Mal 3:10 NRSV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that
> there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the
> LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you
> and pour down for you an overflowing blessing. (talking about rain for
> crops)
>

Yaaaaaaawn.

> (Rev 11:6 NRSV) They have authority to shut the sky, so that no rain
> may fall during the days of their prophesying,
>
> (Gen 7:11-12 NRSV) In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
> second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the
> fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the
> heavens were opened. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty
> nights.
>
> Joshua commands the Sun to stand still in the sky
>
> Here Joshua was imagined to have commanded the Sun and the Moon to
> stand still over particular geographic locations like a helecoptor
> could be imagined to hover over a particular moutain or valley as if
> the Sun and the Moon were only a few miles high instead of 93 million
> (Sun) and 1/4 million (Moon) miles away. To the author the Sun and the
> Moon were attached to a rotating solid sky dome, just a few miles
> above his head.
>

My God is big enough to stop the whole universe if He so chooses.
So what? This is told from the perspective of Joshua, and is
completely
accurate from his reference frame.

> (Josh 10:12-13 NRSV) On the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over
> to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight
> of Israel, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of
> Aijalon."
>
> And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took
> vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar?
> The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a
> whole day.
>
> If you calculate the trigonometry involved, to have the sun stand over
> Gibeon, and the moon stand still over Aijalon, the two would have to
> be at a height of no more than 15 miles above a flat earth.
>
> And finally we have the nativity story, where three magi are said to
> have followed a star whose motion was retrograde, west to east instead
> of vice versa, until it stopped over the place where the Holy Family
> was. A possibility only if the earth is flat.
>

That is just your opinion. None of these supposed measurements
are mentioned.

> >I realise that people are wicked and mistreat others. In ancient
> >times slavery was very different. It was much like a job today.
>
> Bullshit! Can you beat an employee almost to death?
>
> Exodus 21:20-21
> "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at
> his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two,
> no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."
>

Exodus 21
20 `And when a man smiteth his man-servant or his handmaid, with a
rod, and he hath died under his hand -- he is certainly avenged;
21 only if he remain a day, or two days, he is not avenged, for he
[is] his money.

A rod is a more like a dowel. It was not a huge club. And the
person was killed if he killed his servant. There are many possible
explanations, none of which you will probably accept or understand.
Suppose you have a lazy servant, you cannot afford to feed a servant
that won't work. Is it better to cane them, or to starve them?
Either way, you end up being mean to them. It is just a matter of
how. Does this open up a servant for abuse? Yes, but to the loss
of the master.

> >Lots of people were slaves, and did not have any real legal options.
> >Nonetheless the best thing to do was to be a good servant, as
> >that was the fastest way out,
>
> When you were a field hand, working in a mine
> or pulling an oar on a galley?
>

Actually I have worked as a field hand on a farm. It was
better than what I do now, as I slept better.

> >and left you with a good reputation
> >that would be beneficial to your testimony later. In fact a lot
> >of slaves earned, through hard work, their way out of slavery.
>
> But far more lived in misery and died young.

Still do. The average life expectancy in Africa is ~40. If
only the whole world was a theocracy ruled by Christ. It will
be, and hopefully soon.

>
> >A slave was not necessarily a slave for a life time. It was very
> >different from what we think of as slavery.
>
> Leviticus 25:44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have,
> it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female
> slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing
> with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been
> born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them
> as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as
> property.
>

This ignores jubilee.

> >Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained
> >I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.
>
> >You could work hard, and purchase your freedom,
>
> If you were in a position where you could earn money,
> like a household servant, but that's hard to do if you're
> chained to an oar.
>
> >but if you were
> >a bad servant, you left a bad reputation for Christ, and could
> >be put to death. You should study the history a little more, and
> >understand the historical context.
>
> You need to take your own advice. For every household slave living
> well and having a chance to earn his freedom there were a hundred in
> the fields under an overseer's whip.
>
> >Typical of scoffers, I give you facts, and you give me arguments
> >and musings.
>
> Your 'facts' are pretty wobbly...
>
> > It is not really a fair exchange.
>
> And you're SO humble...

I may need to work on that, but I have encountered all these
arguments before, and they have been refuted. It is a waste of
time simply to rehash old arguments.

Anyway if you want to offer verses for critical analysis,
I refuse to consider the NRSV, and you should look them
up in the Young's Literal Translation. You can get the
verses from Bible Gateway.

http://www.biblegateway.org

Most modern translations are not very good. You cannot pick a
poor translation then claim the Bible has errors in it when the
errors are in the translation. Can God not inspire the translators?
Yes He can, but only if they are willing.

None of this flat earth junk is crucial to salvation, or to
understanding salvation. It is just a side diversion.

>
> >Hence the folly
> >of talking to non-Christians, yet I still do it in the hopes that
> >I may meet in Heaven even 1 atheist that will say, "thanks to your
> >obedience I am here".
>
> If heaven is full of sanctimoneous people like you I don't think I
> want to go there.
>

That is your choice. So you see, God does not force anyone
to go to Heaven. You get to choose.

> >> > God is not condoning the situation,
> >> >but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
> >> >to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
> >> >suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
> >> >the master became a Christian, he set the slave free.
> >>
> >> That's not what Philemon says.
> >
> >Philemon 1:16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother
> >beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the
> >flesh, and in the Lord?
>
> Philemon 1:8 For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to
> command you to do your duty, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the
> basis of love?and I, Paul, do this as an old man, and now also as a
> prisoner of Christ Jesus 10 I am appealing to you for my child,
> Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11
> Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful both to
> you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to
> you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me, so that he might be of service
> to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel; 14 but I
> preferred to do nothing without your consent, in order that your good
> deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is
> the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might
> have him back forever, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave,
> a beloved brother?especially to me but how much more to you, both in
> the flesh and in the Lord.
>
> This a plea for Onesimus to be freed. We have no evidence Philemon
> agreed to free his escaped slave.
>

True, but the hope is that your master is less likely to
abuse you if you are a good worker. Unfortunately, the god
of this world is satan.

> >It is sad that as time has gone by, we have become more cruel,
> >and more stupid.
>
> Yeah, it only took another 17 centuries for Christians to catch on
> that slavery was evil.
>
> >> Can't you even get your own scripture straight?
>
> Well?

You have given me the same tired arguments that many others
have been saying, and been refuted long ago. If you want to
understand the scriptures Chuck Smith has gone through the
entire Bible, and you can listen to it for free over the
Internet.

http://www.thewordfortoday.org/c2000_nav.html

I see no benefit in re-inventing the wheel. Anyway, You
have a sin problem, and the only solution is Jesus Christ.
I have given you sufficient answers that you can find the
truth if you really want it. I dust my shirt in this
matter.

>
> >> ## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
> >> ## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.

Gnos Theos
2004-08-26 15:29:24 EST
s*m@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote in message news:<60586629.0408260035.a8b9aa6@posting.google.com>...
> I am going to answer some of these, all of these problems
> have been reconciled long ago. I am not necessarily responding
> for your sake, but others who might read this.
>
> John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<47ppi0d5mkq5dg3q5rk7978k2qv93mp8qh@4ax.com>...
> > On 25 Aug 2004 12:01:37 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:
> >

> > >I realise that people are wicked and mistreat others. In ancient
> > >times slavery was very different. It was much like a job today.
> >
> > Bullshit! Can you beat an employee almost to death?
> >
> > Exodus 21:20-21
> > "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at
> > his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two,
> > no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."
> >
>
> Exodus 21
> 20 `And when a man smiteth his man-servant or his handmaid, with a
> rod, and he hath died under his hand -- he is certainly avenged;
> 21 only if he remain a day, or two days, he is not avenged, for he
> [is] his money.
>
> A rod is a more like a dowel. It was not a huge club. And the
> person was killed if he killed his servant. There are many possible
> explanations, none of which you will probably accept or understand.
> Suppose you have a lazy servant, you cannot afford to feed a servant
> that won't work. Is it better to cane them, or to starve them?
> Either way, you end up being mean to them. It is just a matter of
> how. Does this open up a servant for abuse? Yes, but to the loss
> of the master.
>

We don't like verses like this, but the fact is your life is in the
hands of men. If enough people get mad at you, you can be easily
ruined. All you need is two people to conspire against you, and you are
done for.

Here is a verse that is so confused.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children
of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said,
Ye are gods?

What this means is that man is over man in a positon of a god (really
the meaning here is judge) in that men decide whether, or not another
man should live. Unfortunately men are wicked and often make wrong
choices, and innocents are condemned and killed. Nonetheless, having
rejected God, we are stuck with men ruling over us. In the second
earth, this will not be the case.

You know that the parents had authority to have their children
executed? People actually try to use this vers to justify
abortion. Nonetheless, it is hard for the unborn to be a
durnkard and a glutton or rebellious.

Deuteronomy 21:19-21 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on
him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate
of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This
our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is
a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him
with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you;
and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Yes the legal judicial system of man places men in the place of "gods"
over other men. There is no avoiding it, it is a fact. We may be
lucky enough to live in a country founded upon Christian principles,
but not all are. Rather than tearing down monuments to our history,
we should be building them and thanking God for his grace to us.

> > >Lots of people were slaves, and did not have any real legal options.
> > >Nonetheless the best thing to do was to be a good servant, as
> > >that was the fastest way out,
> >
> > When you were a field hand, working in a mine
> > or pulling an oar on a galley?
> >
>
> Actually I have worked as a field hand on a farm. It was
> better than what I do now, as I slept better.
>
> > >and left you with a good reputation
> > >that would be beneficial to your testimony later. In fact a lot
> > >of slaves earned, through hard work, their way out of slavery.
> >
> > But far more lived in misery and died young.
>
> Still do. The average life expectancy in Africa is ~40. If
> only the whole world was a theocracy ruled by Christ. It will
> be, and hopefully soon.
>
> >
> > >A slave was not necessarily a slave for a life time. It was very
> > >different from what we think of as slavery.
> >
> > Leviticus 25:44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have,
> > it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female
> > slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing
> > with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been
> > born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them
> > as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as
> > property.
> >
>
> This ignores jubilee.
>
> > >Acts 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained
> > >I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.
>
> > >You could work hard, and purchase your freedom,
> >
> > If you were in a position where you could earn money,
> > like a household servant, but that's hard to do if you're
> > chained to an oar.
> >
> > >but if you were
> > >a bad servant, you left a bad reputation for Christ, and could
> > >be put to death. You should study the history a little more, and
> > >understand the historical context.
> >
> > You need to take your own advice. For every household slave living
> > well and having a chance to earn his freedom there were a hundred in
> > the fields under an overseer's whip.
> >
> > >Typical of scoffers, I give you facts, and you give me arguments
> > >and musings.
> >
> > Your 'facts' are pretty wobbly...
> >
> > > It is not really a fair exchange.
> >
> > And you're SO humble...
>
> I may need to work on that, but I have encountered all these
> arguments before, and they have been refuted. It is a waste of
> time simply to rehash old arguments.
>
> Anyway if you want to offer verses for critical analysis,
> I refuse to consider the NRSV, and you should look them
> up in the Young's Literal Translation. You can get the
> verses from Bible Gateway.
>
> http://www.biblegateway.org
>
> Most modern translations are not very good. You cannot pick a
> poor translation then claim the Bible has errors in it when the
> errors are in the translation. Can God not inspire the translators?
> Yes He can, but only if they are willing.
>
> None of this flat earth junk is crucial to salvation, or to
> understanding salvation. It is just a side diversion.
>
> >
> > >Hence the folly
> > >of talking to non-Christians, yet I still do it in the hopes that
> > >I may meet in Heaven even 1 atheist that will say, "thanks to your
> > >obedience I am here".
> >
> > If heaven is full of sanctimoneous people like you I don't think I
> > want to go there.
> >
>
> That is your choice. So you see, God does not force anyone
> to go to Heaven. You get to choose.
>
> > >> > God is not condoning the situation,
> > >> >but being a realist in that the best way to get a good master is
> > >> >to win them to Christ by showing a strong enough faith to endure
> > >> >suffering. There is a epistle to deal with this, Philemon. Once
> > >> >the master became a Christian, he set the slave free.
> > >>
> > >> That's not what Philemon says.
> > >
> > >Philemon 1:16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother
> > >beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the
> > >flesh, and in the Lord?
> >
> > Philemon 1:8 For this reason, though I am bold enough in Christ to
> > command you to do your duty, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the
> > basis of love?and I, Paul, do this as an old man, and now also as a
> > prisoner of Christ Jesus 10 I am appealing to you for my child,
> > Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11
> > Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful both to
> > you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to
> > you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me, so that he might be of service
> > to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel; 14 but I
> > preferred to do nothing without your consent, in order that your good
> > deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is
> > the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might
> > have him back forever, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave,
> > a beloved brother?especially to me but how much more to you, both in
> > the flesh and in the Lord.
> >
> > This a plea for Onesimus to be freed. We have no evidence Philemon
> > agreed to free his escaped slave.
> >
>
> True, but the hope is that your master is less likely to
> abuse you if you are a good worker. Unfortunately, the god
> of this world is satan.
>
> > >It is sad that as time has gone by, we have become more cruel,
> > >and more stupid.
> >
> > Yeah, it only took another 17 centuries for Christians to catch on
> > that slavery was evil.
> >
> > >> Can't you even get your own scripture straight?
> >
> > Well?
>
> You have given me the same tired arguments that many others
> have been saying, and been refuted long ago. If you want to
> understand the scriptures Chuck Smith has gone through the
> entire Bible, and you can listen to it for free over the
> Internet.
>
> http://www.thewordfortoday.org/c2000_nav.html
>
> I see no benefit in re-inventing the wheel. Anyway, You
> have a sin problem, and the only solution is Jesus Christ.
> I have given you sufficient answers that you can find the
> truth if you really want it. I dust my shirt in this
> matter.
>
> >
> > >> ## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
> > >> ## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.

Gnos Theos
2004-08-26 15:58:16 EST
John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:<47ppi0d5mkq5dg3q5rk7978k2qv93mp8qh@4ax.com>...
> On 25 Aug 2004 12:01:37 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:
>

John,

Eventhough you probably won't turn to Christ, I hope that you do.
Anyway, I glad to have at least attempted to help you along. If
anything else, skeptics ask questions that I would never even
consider. I now understand better this verse:

Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then
your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good
and evil.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of
the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said,
Ye are gods?

The lie of Satan is not that sin is pleasurable, but that the
consequences can be avoided. I understood this before, but now
I understand it more perfectly. It is true that men becames gods
over other men to judge them even unto death. Having rejected
God, man became his own god in tandem with Satan. So if you want
to find the blame for the problems in the world, look in the
mirror for making yourself into a god, when you have not the ability
to be God, you have helped make this place a mess. I accept my
responsibility for this as well, but have the hope for the
next world when God will have His way.

The lie of Satan, "Ye shall not surely die" i.e. you can avoid
the consequences of sin. You cannot. Abortion is simply us trying
to dodge the consequences of promiscuity. The world population
is actually projected to decrease in the future. It will
probably be like the dark ages from the aspects of the coming
plagues.

If you make a god out of a man, do not be shocked when he tries
to act like a god over you deciding life and death.

John Ings
2004-08-26 19:24:03 EST
On 26 Aug 2004 01:35:30 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:

>I am going to answer some of these, all of these problems
>have been reconciled long ago.

Reconciled or rationalized?

> I am not necessarily responding
>for your sake, but others who might read this.

That's why I posted them, not to try to persuade you, but to reach the
bystander who might otherwise be unaware of these ancient errors.

>> >> Clinging stubbornly to a belief in the face of contrary evidence in
>> >> other words. By that standard we should all still believe the earth is
>> >> flat as the Bible writers declared.
>> >
>> >The flat earth crap came from a novel.
>>
>> Yeah. A novel called the Bible, mostly fiction.
>
>http://www.1worldglobes.com/ancientcoinsarticle.htm

"The average person in Hellenic and Roman times knew that our
world is round."

The average educated person did. But the Bible comes from a very
different culture, and the cosmology of Genesis 1 is similar to that
of the Babylonians and comes from a far older oral tradition.

>You cannot use the dumbest modern as an example of
>the smartest ancient.

Nor can you believably propose that a Stone Age ancient was somehow
wiser than an Iron Age Greek.

>> In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is
>> immovable and set on pillars.
>
>I I use the earth as the reference frame, then it is stationary.
>Maybe the Ancient Hebrew understood relativity.

And maybe the moon is made of green cheese.

> All motion is
>relative, and you really cannot say this is in motion, and that is
>standing still.

Yes I can.

>There is this whole problem in relativity. This
>is why it was so hard to convince people of heliocentrism, because
>you can explain motion in terms of multiple reference frames.

You're rationalizing up a storm with the intent of rescuing a
primitive cosmology that is merely the innocent cosmological
conclusions of tribes of desert wanderers. Why? To justify
an inerrant Bible I suspect.

>> Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to
>> make the earth.
>>
>> (Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the
>> world's first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was
>> there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
>
>My little girl drew a calk circle in the drive way, it didn't make
>the earth flat.

She wasn't drawing the earth.

>Besides the world for circle can sometimes be
>translated circuit. This could be talking about ocean currents.

Desperate!

>The Hebrew is often ambiguous, and can be interpreted many ways.
>All translations involve some interpretation.

Leaving you lots of escape hatches... you hope!

>> A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the
>> ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle, but that
>> is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible. A flat
>> round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture
>> yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth
>> as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the
>> horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.
>>
>> Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down
>> on it's inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.
>>
>> (Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and
>> its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens
>> like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

>This is the tranlation that Gerome used in one of his translations.
>However He was confused as to how to translate this, and translated
>it slightly differently in two different versions. It is my opinion
>that it could be translated as
>
>He that dwelleth above the circuit(H2329) of the the earth, ...

Doesn't help.

>I am not a Hebrew scholar, but the word there for circle is only used
>three times in the bible, so the meaning is not clear. In the book
>of Job, it is translated circuit, but it is the same word/sense so
>far as I know. Here is the link to a Hebrew concordance so you can
>see that circuit is a proper translation.
>
>http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?strongs=02329&page=1
>
>This is even more profound for it means that Isaiah was ahead of
>Copernicus.

Did Copernicus believe that the sun could stand still in the sky for a
day, as Joshua would have us believe?

Joshua 10:12 On the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the
Israelites, Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight of
Israel,
“Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till
the people had revenge Upon their enemies.

Curiously the Egyptians, the Indians and the Chinese never noticed
this wonder...

>It is too bad that others do not use this translation
>instead, or that others do not understand this.

The earth isn't a circuit either.

>> Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew
>> word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author
>> would have been aware of the earth's spherical nature.
>
>Yes but this statement is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a couple
>different ways.

By the theologically desperate. Like you and Gleason Archer.

>> Here the author of Daniel writes of a dream of Nebuchadnezzar where a
>> tree grows at the "center" of the earth. Assuming that the tree grew
>> on the surface, this is most certainly the center of a flat earth as a
>> spherical earth would have no center on it's surface. Also notice that
>> the tree grew so tall it's top reached heaven and was visible to the
>> "ends of the earth". So these verses indicate that Nebuchadnezzar and
>> the author of Daniel pictured a flat earth as everyone else did in
>> their time.
>>
>> (Dan 4:10-11 NRSV) Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at
>> the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great
>> and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends
>> of the whole earth.
>
>This is symbolic, and not literal. It just signifies that Babylon was
>a world empire. Also the word for earth has many meanings, dry land,
>Israel, a country, or potentially what we think of as the earth.

Or the writer of the prophecy by 20/20 hindsight that is the Book of
Daniel, as late as the 2nd century BCE, still thought the world was
flat. Or his readers did.

>The problem is you interpret the words and expressions with a western
>mind set. The Bible is a eastern book, with eastern expressions
>written in a language that just does not translate to english well.

We can however compare the biblical cosmologies with those of the
Mesopotamian cultures that surrounded the He' Pru, and note their
similarity. If the Hebrew had these advanced insights that you think
you see in their scripture, then the ancient Babaylonians, Egyptians
and Akkadians did too, and I'm not buying that wowser!

> You cannot
>understand the Bible without God's help, or the Holy Spirit.

You believers don't seem to be able to understand the Bible
consistently WITH that help. You all understand contrarily.

>> Here it is possible that this gospel author still imagined a flat
>> earth as Jesus is able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a
>> high mountain. This would not be possible on a spherical earth.
>>
>> (Mat 4:8 NRSV) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and
>> showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;
>
>Here again the word world could just mean "land". Anyway if you
>don't want to accept the Bible, there is nothing I can do to dissuade
>you.

Here is my favorite Bible passage Gnos:

John 3:12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not
believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

The Bible tries to sell me bullshit about earthly things that I can
check on. Why should I then believe what it says about heavenly
things I can't check on?

>I could go through each one here, but I would rather put it
>in a web page and copyright it. So you have my permission to strut
>with you nose stuck up in the air right into Hell.

And you have my permission to rationalize ancient error into
inerrancy. But I hope the bystander has better sense than to follow
you.

>When you encounter a verse like this, you have to go back and look at
>the secondary meanings of the words.

AND you have to look at the culture in which it was written and the
purpose for which it was written.

>Translators are often just
>hirelings, and pick the first meaning of the word. Anyway, you fail
>to realize that both Jesus and Satan are supernatural and not limited
>as you and I are.

And you fail to realize that both may well be figments of man's
imagination.

>> Here the author of Job imagines that God could take the edges of the
>> earth and shake the wicked out of it.
>>
>> (Job 38:13 NIV) that it might take the earth by the edges and shake
>> the wicked out of it?
>
>Earth is dry land, the ends of the "dry land" is the coastline.
>I am sorry but if you connect Asia to North America at the bering
>straight you can walk from one end of the "dry land" to the other.
>Say Spain to Argentina. If you lower the water level a little bit
>the world is truly one contiguous piece of dry land. Get a good
>world atlas and look at the continental shelfs.

Ever heard of Cape Finisterre? It's on the west coast of Spain. The
Roman's named it. Finis terre. The end of the earth. They really
thought it was...

>The "ends of the earth" really means "the ends of the dry land",
>which would be the coast lines.

Yup. The dry land that rose out of the lower waters, the waters under
that solid dome.

>> The Bible's immovable earth set on pillars
>>
>> Here the earth is imagined to be set on pillars and immovable.
>>
>> (Psa 93:1 NRSV) ... He has established the world; it shall never be
>> moved;
>>
>> (1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on
>> them he has set the world.
>>
>> (Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the
>> foundations of the earth tremble.
>>
>> The Bible's solid sky dome
>>
>> Here God is imagined to create a solid sky dome that seperates the
>> waters into two parts. One would become the oceans and the other would
>> remain above the solid sky dome to provide an explanation of where
>> water came from to cause clouds and rain in the absence of the
>> knowledge of evaporation.
>>
>> (Gen 1:6-7 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of
>> the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
>>
>
>The NRSV is not a good translation.

i.e. it chafes your theology.

>Genesis 1
>6 And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and
>let it be separating between waters and waters.'
>7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters
>which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the
>expanse: and it is so.
>http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Genesis+1%3A6-7&version=YLT

"Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters"

"raqiya" from the root word "raqa" A primitive root; to pound the
earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by
implication to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad,
spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

>> So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome
>> from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
>>
>> Here is another verse which mentions the water above the sky dome.
>>
>> (Psa 148:4 NRSV) Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above
>> the heavens!
>
>Have you ever heard of fluid dynamics? Gases and liguids are called
>fluids.

Not by ancient Hebrews. Now who's reading with a modern mindset?

>Heavens does not mean what you think, there are 3 heavens
>2 Corinthians 12:2
>
>1. Atmosphere.
>2. Outer space.
>3. God's throne.

That was written a milennium later.

>God is hinting at the vapor canopy.

There never was any such impossible construct.
That's a Creationist fable.

>Yes I am aware of the problems
>we have understanding this. I think that with the appropriate research
>the problems could be solved.

You desperately hope so, in the cause of rescuing an inerrant Bible.

>Just because you don't understand a verse does not mean there is no
>one else who does.

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother
me, it is the parts that I do understand." Mark Twain

> This is why it is so crucial that a Christian
>become a disciple of someone who is spirit filled, and understands
>these things. But even more important is for the Christian to grow
>and become a disciple of Christ lead by the Holy Spirit.

If your proposed methodology produced consistent results, you might
have an argument, but right from its very inception Christianity has
been devisive and sectarian. It's cloisters echo with shouts of
"apostacy!" and "heresy!".

>There are
>always going to be things that people do not understand. How can
>God explain things taht are too wonderful for us to understand.

A lot better than he has. For instance I would be quite impressed if
the creation order in Genesis 1 was correct, but it's all
bassackwards.

>God
>has to use things that we can understand, to explain the things we
>cannot. It is a serious conundrum.

No, it's just the scribbings of ancient Bronze Age men, with no hidden
wisdom behind it.

>You are also mistaking persperctive as error. I say the sun rose
>in the morning and went across the sky, and you understand full
>well what I am talking about. Yet you see a similar phrase in the
>Bible and suddenly, you have a problem.

No, I have no problem... YOU do! I recognize the simplistic beliefs of
an ancient culture. You have the problem becuase you are desperate to
rationalize innocent cosmology into divinely inspired wisdom. It ain't
in there Gnos!

>> Here celestial bodies are attached to this sky dome.
>>
>> (Gen 1:14-17 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of
>> the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs
>> and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the
>> dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made
>> the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser
>> light to rule the night--and the stars. God set them in the dome of
>> the sky to give light upon the earth,
>>
>> Notice that the lights, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are set
>> inside the sky dome.
>
>I have no clue why the translated it Dome.

I do. It's because that's what the Babylonians believed, and the
Hebrew holy men committing the oral traditions of their culture to
paper (or velum) for the first time had just been freed from
Babylonian captivity.

> I recommend using Young's Literal Translation.

I recommend using the translation currently regarded as the most
scholarly and least theologically biased.

>Not every translator even beleives the Bible.

Since not ever translator is a fool.

>It is like asking someone who hates you to translate
>your book to another language. Do you think they will do a good
>job? Maybe, maybe not.

Do you think that a pious translator will studiously avoid coloring
his translation whith his piety? Especially when translating a
language where personal interpretation of context is mandatory?

Here's an analogy; an English sentence written in the Hebrew manner.
Interpret it for me: GODISNOWHERE

>> Here it is mentioned that the sky dome is hard.
>>
>> (Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a
>> molten mirror?
>
>The book of Job is largely the incorrect arguments of Job's
>4 sore comforters. These are the words of Elihu, and not God.

No, they are the arguments of the unknown author of Job.

>While there are a lot of truths in Job,

I doubt it.

>Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
>surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
>then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing
>good and evil.
>
>So I suppose you recommend using the words of evil men that
>are recorded in the Bible as doctrine.

I don't believe in doctrine of any kind. I read the purported words of
any biblical character as representative of the beliefs of the culture
in which they were written.

>> (Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above, ...
>>
>> God is imagined to walk on top of the sky dome.
>>
>> (Job 22:14 NRSV) Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and
>> he walks on the dome of heaven.'
>>
>> The sky is imagined as something that has to
>> open to let things pass through it
>>
>> Here notice that heaven has to be "opened" for things to pass through,
>> things in and above heaven to be seen, and for rainwater to come
>> through. One would think that would not be necessary unless the sky
>> was imagined to be solid. Some would say that this was not be taken
>> literaly, but the sky was imagined to be solid in most cultures for
>> over 1500 years after the last books of the bible were written.
>>
>> (John 1:51 NRSV) And he said to him, "Very truly, I tell you, you will
>> see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon
>> the Son of Man."
>
>He is refering to the dream Jacob had,

And the things we dream are colored by what we believe. You can easily
have a dream about flying in an aeroplane. Jacob couldn't.

> but then I would not expect
>you to understand that. You cannot interpret the New Testament in
>absense of the Old Testment.

The NT was written by a different culture, in a later time, and far
away from Judea.

>Most like he was reading this very
>passage, or meditating on it. Jesus was letting him know that he
>not only saw him, but also his thoughts. It was a sign to convince
>him to follow Jesus.

It's fiction Gnos.

>Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth,
>and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God
>ascending
>and descending on it.
>
>How do you expect to understand the most complex, and rich symbolic
>book of all times on your own?

By understanding the context in which it was written.
A context you ignore.

>Men have spent their entire lives studying
>the symbolism in the Bible.

And deluding themselves, because that was the purpose of the symbolism
in the first place. Religions are founded on the fears of the many,
and the cleverness of a few.

>I am sorry, but without God's helper, the
>Holy Spirit you are just not going to see the symbolism.

And with it, you are going to see the symbolism to suit your
prejudices, and so will your fellow Christians, and then you will hate
one another as you have for centuries, each confident that the Holy
Spirit has inspired his sect and abandoned the others.

>I have been studying the Bible many years,

Try studying some ancient history, some archaeology and some
comparative religion.

> and have barely scratched the surface
>of its
>majesty. It is the most wonderfully complex book in all the world.
>Only those who humble themselves before God are given the gift of
>understanding.

Contrary and contradictory understanding.

>> (Acts 10:11 NRSV) He saw the heaven opened and something like a large
>> sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.
>>
>> (Acts 7:56 NRSV) "Look," he said, "I see the heavens opened and the
>> Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
>
>He had a vision as he was being accepted into Heaven.

And his vision matched his concept of heaven as a solid dome.

>> (Mat 3:16-17 NRSV) And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came
>> up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw
>> the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a
>> voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am
>> well pleased."
>
>A vision. Again, it is symbolic,

And based on the current concept of what the sky was.

>eventhough John literally saw
>a dove. The Dove was symbolic, and why cannot God manipulate
>something He created?

A modern man, experiencing the same vision, would not have envisioned
the sky as a dome that had to be opened.

>> (2 Chr 6:26 NRSV) "When heaven (same Hebrew word as sky) is shut up
>> and there is no rain because...
>
>Expression.

Meant literally at the time.

>> (Psa 78:23 NRSV) Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the
>> doors of heaven (same Hebrew word as sky);
>
>Poetic.

Or so you rationalize.

>> (Mal 3:10 NRSV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that
>> there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the
>> LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you
>> and pour down for you an overflowing blessing. (talking about rain for
>> crops)
>
>Yaaaaaaawn.

Know the culture if you propose to understand their writings.

>> Joshua commands the Sun to stand still in the sky
>>
>> Here Joshua was imagined to have commanded the Sun and the Moon to
>> stand still over particular geographic locations like a helecoptor
>> could be imagined to hover over a particular moutain or valley as if
>> the Sun and the Moon were only a few miles high instead of 93 million
>> (Sun) and 1/4 million (Moon) miles away. To the author the Sun and the
>> Moon were attached to a rotating solid sky dome, just a few miles
>> above his head.
>
>My God is big enough to stop the whole universe if He so chooses.

And cause surrounding civilizations not to notice? Induced delusion?
Or perhaps the sun standing still was the delusion?

>So what? This is told from the perspective of Joshua, and is
>completely accurate from his reference frame.

Or the whole story is a fabrication.

>> (Josh 10:12-13 NRSV) On the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over
>> to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight
>> of Israel, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of
>> Aijalon."
>>
>> And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took
>> vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar?
>> The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a
>> whole day.
>>
>> If you calculate the trigonometry involved, to have the sun stand over
>> Gibeon, and the moon stand still over Aijalon, the two would have to
>> be at a height of no more than 15 miles above a flat earth.
>>
>> And finally we have the nativity story, where three magi are said to
>> have followed a star whose motion was retrograde, west to east instead
>> of vice versa, until it stopped over the place where the Holy Family
>> was. A possibility only if the earth is flat.
>>
>
>That is just your opinion. None of these supposed measurements
>are mentioned.

But they are pertinent.

>> >I realise that people are wicked and mistreat others. In ancient
>> >times slavery was very different. It was much like a job today.
>>
>> Bullshit! Can you beat an employee almost to death?
>>
>> Exodus 21:20-21
>> "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at
>> his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two,
>> no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."
>
>Exodus 21
>20 `And when a man smiteth his man-servant or his handmaid, with a
>rod, and he hath died under his hand -- he is certainly avenged;
>21 only if he remain a day, or two days, he is not avenged, for he
>[is] his money.
>
>A rod is a more like a dowel. It was not a huge club.

But you can beat somebody to death with it. And you can hurt them
terribly. Can your employer beat you even a little bit?

>And the
>person was killed if he killed his servant. There are many possible
>explanations, none of which you will probably accept or understand.

Damn right! Slavery is evil in my view, and the condoning of it is a
wart on the supposedly benevolent face of Christianity.

>Suppose you have a lazy servant, you cannot afford to feed a servant
>that won't work. Is it better to cane them, or to starve them?

It's better to fire them. But that assumes you're paying them in the
first place.

>Either way, you end up being mean to them. It is just a matter of
>how. Does this open up a servant for abuse? Yes, but to the loss
>of the master.

The ability of the devout to rationalize is boundless...

>> >Lots of people were slaves, and did not have any real legal options.
>> >Nonetheless the best thing to do was to be a good servant, as
>> >that was the fastest way out,
>>
>> When you were a field hand, working in a mine
>> or pulling an oar on a galley?
>
>Actually I have worked as a field hand on a farm.

Did the owner have a whip?

>> >and left you with a good reputation
>> >that would be beneficial to your testimony later. In fact a lot
>> >of slaves earned, through hard work, their way out of slavery.
>>
>> But far more lived in misery and died young.
>
>Still do. The average life expectancy in Africa is ~40. If
>only the whole world was a theocracy ruled by Christ.

If the whole world was a theocracy there would be no science, just
prayer, and Europe found out how well that worked when the Black Death
struck.

>> >A slave was not necessarily a slave for a life time. It was very
>> >different from what we think of as slavery.
>>
>> Leviticus 25:44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have,
>> it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female
>> slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing
>> with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been
>> born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them
>> as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as
>> property.
>
>This ignores jubilee.

Yes it does. Only the Hebrew bondslave was freed at Jubilee.
The foreign slave stayed a slave.

>> >Typical of scoffers, I give you facts, and you give me arguments
>> >and musings.
>>
>> Your 'facts' are pretty wobbly...
>>
>> > It is not really a fair exchange.
>>
>> And you're SO humble...
>
>I may need to work on that, but I have encountered all these
>arguments before, and they have been refuted.

To YOUR satisfaction. Wonder how credible the bystander finds them?

>It is a waste of time simply to rehash old arguments.

They're not old to everyone.

>Anyway if you want to offer verses for critical analysis,
>I refuse to consider the NRSV,

Does this sound like an honest scholar folks?

>Most modern translations are not very good.

In your expert opinion, or just according to your pious prejudice?

>You cannot pick a
>poor translation then claim the Bible has errors in it when the
>errors are in the translation.

But they aren't. The errors are in your theology, which arose from
so-so translations like the KJV.

>Can God not inspire the translators?
>Yes He can, but only if they are willing.

And you would probably disagree with them anyway.

>None of this flat earth junk is crucial to salvation, or to
>understanding salvation. It is just a side diversion.

Then why are you arguing about it so determinedly?
To many Christians the fact that the Bible has such innocent primitive
cosmologies and tall stories and silly superstitions in it is
unimportant because of the things it is supposed to teach. The only
believers who are intensely concerned that every last word be true are
the inerrantists.

Like you?

>> If heaven is full of sanctimoneous people like you I don't think I
>> want to go there.
>>
>
>That is your choice. So you see, God does not force anyone
>to go to Heaven. You get to choose.

Yeah? What's my alternative?

>> Philemon 1:8-16
>> This a plea for Onesimus to be freed. We have no evidence Philemon
>> agreed to free his escaped slave.
>
>True, but the hope is that your master is less likely to
>abuse you if you are a good worker. Unfortunately, the god
>of this world is satan.

Or so your mythology teaches.

>> >> Can't you even get your own scripture straight?
>>
>> Well?
>
>You have given me the same tired arguments that many others
>have been saying, and been refuted long ago.

Only to your satisfaction.

>> >> ## Science: Hard questions that may never be answered.
>> >> ## Religion: Hard answers that may never be questioned.


John Ings
2004-08-26 19:37:32 EST
On 26 Aug 2004 12:58:16 -0700, spam@gnostheos.org (Gnos Theos) wrote:

>Eventhough you probably won't turn to Christ, I hope that you do.
>Anyway, I glad to have at least attempted to help you along. If
>anything else, skeptics ask questions that I would never even
>consider. I now understand better this verse:
>
>Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not
>surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then
>your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good
>and evil.

Howso? I didn't mention it.

>The lie of Satan is not that sin is pleasurable, but that the
>consequences can be avoided.

The dilemma of man is that he can't agree with his fellows about what
is sin and what isn't. And the whole theme of Salvation is exactly the
idea that piety and contrition will excuse the sinner from deserved
consequences.

>If you make a god out of a man, do not be shocked when he tries
>to act like a god over you deciding life and death.

If you make a priest out of a man, do not be shocked when he tries
to act like a god over you, deciding life and death in God's name and
babbling nonsense.

## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable

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