Bible Discussion: Jesus Was A Vegetarian

Jesus Was A Vegetarian
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Jahnu
2004-08-11 21:32:44 EST

Jesus & vegetarianism

So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life,
energy, mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart
mind soul, etc., well we all agree to that.

To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not
even for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were
vegetarians, see below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the
spiritual world and we should not unnecessarily use our valuable time
in mundane pursuits. Unless we give up material life and turn with
great determination towards spiritual life our life will be a loss and
end up in disappointment.

On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the
flesh and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological
concepts that were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on
and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.

Quote from the book "Food for peace":

Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ
ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But
close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast
majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and
other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.
For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a
woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original
Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat".
So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."

The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never
used in connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered
him fish and a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which
one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
Jesus eating meat.

This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall
conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall
eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
(Isaiah 7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good
discretion in man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 1:23).

Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you
had known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you
would not condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly
disapproves of the killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from
Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God
more than burnt offerings..." (note: again the the 2nd part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).

He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently
driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the
money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).

His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade
(which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders'
den").

We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was
refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and
wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)

But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to
Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve
disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally
reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than
his master..." (John 14:16).

The seven are:

1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom.
XII,6)

2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus
(about 160 AD) is stating:

"...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives
the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes
as follow: '...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the
government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been
called the Just by all from the time of our savior to the present day;
for there were many that bore the name James.

'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong
drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not
anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was
permitted to enter the holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen
garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple,
and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the
people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in
consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of
God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post
Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I,
p.125)

It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of
Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary
was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child.
That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole
family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense
the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's
womb" is most indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.

3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were
widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of
Jesus as ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from
eating of flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and
drink and water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and
winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to
others."

4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon
dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue.
Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and
vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the
extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."

(Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)
(Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of
John the Baptist.)

5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food
as told by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as
Matthews. (Clement/Stromata III,4,26)

6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and
faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists'
followers, must have followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above
under Matthew)

Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..."
(Roman 14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether
somewhat less categorical.

Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
the Fathers of the early Church:

"...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).

This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the
writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).
"...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens
worship of devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through
participation in which a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..."
(2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)

Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of
his hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and
hearts by the slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."
Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and
vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a
temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables,
roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of
Alexandria (Titus Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)

"...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of
animals to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of
demonic origin." And about the early Christians: "...No streams of
blood are among them. No dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are
horrible smells of flesh meats among them or disagreeable fumes from
the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)

A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much
cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the
Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the
authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.

The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating
is clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it.
They will be yours for food..."

However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden
permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts
of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that
moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are
given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food
for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you
everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in
it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)

Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned
asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the
Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.

St. Jerome says:
"...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second
blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the
first benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce
according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning,
but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses
to the human race, (Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your
wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the
beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the
deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to
the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our
teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that
God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ
Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the
Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I
am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."

At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave
bills of divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we
reached the deluge. But after the deluge, together with the giving of
the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and
divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision
was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something
superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega
passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no
longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised,
nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good
not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was
consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,18)
"The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can
have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD
320 - 79)

Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
Christians as abstaining from meat:

Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
..."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."

Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."

And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
plate of one sort of innocent food..."

The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his
brother... And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his
own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who
so eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill
neither men, nor beasts, nor the food which goes into your mouth...
For life comes from life, and from death comes always death. For
everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And your
bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what
your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace

And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind
but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose
of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is
reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally.
It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...
Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us
in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."

Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is
as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no
power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in
tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend
themselves, who are utterly in our power..."

Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many
rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly
says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill,"
they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions
indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons.
This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about
unlimited calamities..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul's teachings and interpretations


And it's absolutely amazing that Paul actually tells it himself:

"...One man's faith (in the idea of salvation from the cross) allows
him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith (in the cross) is
weak, eats only vegetables..." (Roman 14:2)

The smoking gun is right there: It is Paul's concept of faith in the
salvific nature of the cross, declaring the Torah obsolete which leads
him to view the vegetarianism of the apostles as dietetic fanaticism
of Nazarene Jewish origin and hence dispensable.

Further proof are at hand. In fact the following statements make no
sense whatsoever, unless we agree that Paul needed to convince a large
section of early Christians, that there was no problem with eating
meat.

"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.
All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that
causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink
wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So
whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and
God..." (Rom 14:20-22)

In other words it is O.K. to eat meat as long as nobody is offended
and the community of Christians is not disturbed.

He goes on:
"If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then
do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for
conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For
why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take
part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of
something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you
do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor 10:27-31)

In other words as far as eating meat, even when offered in sacrifice,
Paul had no scruples unless it is declared, that meat is offered in
sacrifice. In this case do not eat it, to avoid to offend others.

It is very clear: It needed to be saying that meat eating is allowed.
There were Christians who are vegetarians. Beware of meat offered in
sacrifice. Because besides the vegetarian Christians there were others
who were less strict but who would not approve of the idea of eating
meat offered in sacrifice. Meat eating in general is allowed,
according to Paul:

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of
conscience, for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'"
(1 Cor 10:25-26)

Again, this makes no sense unless there must have been Christians who
found it difficult to reconcile with their conscience to buy meat in
the market.

And again more:

"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then
for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what
you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating
destroy your brother for whom Christ died." (Roman 14:14-15)

Later this point of view is reflected in Timothy, possibly addressing
early Christian sects like the later banned Enkratites:

"...They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good,
and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving..."
(1 Timothy 4:3-4)

So we can see that there was obviously a large group of people who did
not agree with meat eating in general (hence he says don't let it be a
matter of conscience to you when buying meat in the market).
Definitely the issue was not about eating food offered in sacrifice,
as made out by Christian theologians.

The tensions between Paul are further reflected in the way how he
addresses the disciples of Jesus. He makes it perfectly clear that
their opinions are not what Paul is overly concerned with.

He sarcastically describes the Apostles in Jerusalem (James, Peter) as
"those Super Apostles", "those reputed to be the Pillars":
"...But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those
"super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have
knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way."
(2 Cor 11:5-6)

He clearly is preaching a different Jesus then the Apostles in
Jerusalem. Hence he warns his followers:

"...For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER THAN THE
JESUS WE PREACHED, or if you receive a different spirit from the one
you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put
up with it easily enough."
(2 Cor 11:4)

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we
have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you
a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally
condemned!" (Gal 1:8-9)

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles,
deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:12-14)



Brendon Ward
2004-08-11 22:25:04 EST
Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.




Jahnu
2004-08-12 07:33:03 EST



HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER

The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989



The Hunger Argument

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
million.

Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million

Human beings in America: 243 million

Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by
U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion

Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20

Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80

Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95

Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99

How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds

Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO

Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165

Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56

Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16



The Environmental Argument

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect

Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
fossil fuels.

Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
diet: 50 times more

Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75

Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising:
85

Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce
meat-centered diet: 260 million

Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds

Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S.
housecat.

Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55
sq.ft.

Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year



The Cancer Argument

Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week
vs. less than once a week: 4 times

For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times

Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times

Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs.
sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times



The Natural Resources Argument

Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.:
livestock portion.

Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to
float a destroyer.

Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25

Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500

Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not
subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound

Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no
longer subsidized: 89 dollars

Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a
meat-centered diet: 13

Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260

Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million

Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient
factory farming of meat: 34.5

Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8

Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present
meat-centered diet: 33



The Cholesterol Argument

Number of U.S. medical schools: 125

Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30

Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four
years in medical school: 25 hours

Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack

How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds

Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc.

Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc.

Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood
cholesterol if it is: normal

Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your
blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc.



The Antibiotic Argument

Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55

Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13

Percentage resistant in 1988: 91

Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of
antibiotics to livestock: ban

Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding
of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support


The Pesticide Argument

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains:
1

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits:
4

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy
products: 23

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55

Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs.
non meat-eating: 35 times higher

What USDA tells us: meat is inspected

Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin
chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004



The Ethical Argument

Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000

Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker

Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
U.S:slaughterhouse worker

Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
slaughter.: 1 cent

Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive



The Survival Argument

Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian

Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex

Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.


Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
-------------------------------
Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting

'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3


-Hector-
2004-08-12 08:56:06 EST
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:


>
>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>
>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>
>The Hunger Argument
>
>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>million.
>
>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>
>Human beings in America: 243 million
>
<<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>
>The Ethical Argument
>
>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>
>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>
>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>
>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>slaughter.: 1 cent
>
>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>
>
>
>The Survival Argument
>
>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>
>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>
>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>
>
>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>-------------------------------
>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>
>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3


That does it! No more frog legs for me!

Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
Hector

Pastor Dave
2004-08-12 09:58:15 EST
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
<*s@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:

>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>>
>>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>>
>>The Hunger Argument
>>
>>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>>million.
>>
>>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>>
>>Human beings in America: 243 million
>>
><<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>>
>>The Ethical Argument
>>
>>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>>
>>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>>
>>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>>
>>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>>slaughter.: 1 cent
>>
>>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>>
>>
>>
>>The Survival Argument
>>
>>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>>
>>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>>
>>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>>
>>
>>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>>-------------------------------
>>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>>
>>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
>
>
> That does it! No more frog legs for me!

Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
I mean, is chicken banned too? :)


>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,

I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
lands in Florida. :)



Pastor Dave Raymond

"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\


http://members.aol.com/trwstrong/straight.html



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Pastor Dave
2004-08-12 09:58:57 EST
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
<*s@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:

>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>>
>>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>>
>>The Hunger Argument
>>
>>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>>million.
>>
>>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>>
>>Human beings in America: 243 million
>>
><<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>>
>>The Ethical Argument
>>
>>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>>
>>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>>
>>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>>
>>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>>slaughter.: 1 cent
>>
>>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>>
>>
>>
>>The Survival Argument
>>
>>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>>
>>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>>
>>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>>
>>
>>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>>-------------------------------
>>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>>
>>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
>
>
> That does it! No more frog legs for me!

Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
I mean, is chicken banned too? :)


>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,

I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
lands in Florida. :)



Pastor Dave Raymond

"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\


http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life026.html



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-Hector-
2004-08-12 11:33:19 EST
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:58:15 -0400, Pastor Dave
<*8@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:

>While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
>Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
><Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>>>
>>>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>>>
>>>The Hunger Argument
>>>
>>>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>>>million.
>>>
>>>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>>>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>>>
>>>Human beings in America: 243 million
>>>
>><<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>>>
>>>The Ethical Argument
>>>
>>>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>>>
>>>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>>>
>>>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>>>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>>>
>>>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>>>slaughter.: 1 cent
>>>
>>>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The Survival Argument
>>>
>>>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>>>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>>>
>>>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>>>
>>>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>>>
>>>
>>>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>>>-------------------------------
>>>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>>>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>>>
>>>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>>>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
>>
>>
>> That does it! No more frog legs for me!
>
>Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
>once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
>about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
>I mean, is chicken banned too? :)
>
I'm not sure. I assume that when in doubt one should consult
the PETA Guide to a Lackluster Cuisine, under the lengthy appendix of
verboten foods. :-)

>
>>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
>
>I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
>like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
>at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
>along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
>lands in Florida. :)

Kermit would be happy to hear it (that you don't find him
appetizing and that the Lord has graced your wife with a vehicle).

God bless,
Hector

Pastor Dave
2004-08-12 11:39:12 EST
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:33:19 -0700, -Hector-
<*s@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:

>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:58:15 -0400, Pastor Dave
><pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
>>Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
>><Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
>>
>>>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>>>>
>>>>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>>>>
>>>>The Hunger Argument
>>>>
>>>>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>>>>million.
>>>>
>>>>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>>>>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>>>>
>>>>Human beings in America: 243 million
>>>>
>>><<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>>>>
>>>>The Ethical Argument
>>>>
>>>>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>>>>
>>>>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>>>>
>>>>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>>>>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>>>>
>>>>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>>>>slaughter.: 1 cent
>>>>
>>>>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Survival Argument
>>>>
>>>>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>>>>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>>>>
>>>>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>>>>
>>>>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>>>>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>>>>
>>>>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>>>>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
>>>
>>>
>>> That does it! No more frog legs for me!
>>
>>Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
>>once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
>>about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
>>I mean, is chicken banned too? :)
>>
> I'm not sure. I assume that when in doubt one should consult
>the PETA Guide to a Lackluster Cuisine, under the lengthy appendix of
>verboten foods. :-)
>
>>
>>>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>>>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
>>
>>I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
>>like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
>>at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
>>along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
>>lands in Florida. :)
>
> Kermit would be happy to hear it (that you don't find him
>appetizing and that the Lord has graced your wife with a vehicle).

I have taken your words wisely under consideration. :)



Pastor Dave Raymond

"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\


"Few paleontologists have, I think ever supposed that
fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the
conclusion that evolution has occurred. An examination
of the work of those paleontologists who have been
particularly concerned with the relationship between
paleontology and evolutionary theory, for example that
of G. G. Simpson and S. J. Gould, reveals a mindfulness
of the fact that the record of evolution, like any
other historical record, must be construed within a
complex of particular and general preconceptions not
the least of which is the hypothesis that evolution has
occurred. ...The fossil record doesn't even provide any
evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the
weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with
it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary
theories, and revolutionary theories and special
creationist theories and even historical theories."
(Kitts, David B., "Search for the Holy Transformation,"
review of Evolution of Living Organisms, by Pierre-P.
Grassé, Paleobiology, vol. 5, 1979, pp. 353-354)



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Immortalist
2004-08-12 12:07:05 EST

"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn3nh019qetbubk5gedsmb92ji22504ac9@4ax.com...
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:33:19 -0700, -Hector-
> <Melitus@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:

> o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
>
> "Few paleontologists have, I think ever supposed that
> fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the
> conclusion that evolution has occurred. An examination
> of the work of those paleontologists who have been
> particularly concerned with the relationship between
> paleontology and evolutionary theory, for example that
> of G. G. Simpson and S. J. Gould, reveals a mindfulness
> of the fact that the record of evolution, like any
> other historical record, must be construed within a
> complex of particular and general preconceptions not
> the least of which is the hypothesis that evolution has
> occurred. ...The fossil record doesn't even provide any
> evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the
> weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with
> it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary
> theories, and revolutionary theories and special
> creationist theories and even historical theories."
> (Kitts, David B., "Search for the Holy Transformation,"
> review of Evolution of Living Organisms, by Pierre-P.
> Grass\ufffd, Paleobiology, vol. 5, 1979, pp. 353-354)
>

OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/

MEAT: THE OPEN COUNTRY beckoned wich another resource. In the forest, animals
tend to be small, furtive, difficult to see. But the savanna teemed with visible
herds. From time to time a stick-carrying group of australopithecines would
encounter an infant gazelle or antelope that had strayed from the protection of
its mother and they would surround, seize, and eat it. Occasionally they would
also stumble upon the remains of a larger animal that had died from natural
causes or had been killed by the feline predators that lived off the herds.
Hooting and howling and waving their sticks, they would drive away the vultures
and jackals, rush in and rear off bits of decaying meat, and run to the nearest
clump of trees, ready to drop everything and seek safety in the branches if one
of the felines returned and interrupted their meal.

I confess that there is no archaeological evidence that such events ever
happened. But rhe behavior of chimpanzees and other primates, as well as our
kind's dietary preferences, leave little doubt that the ausrralopithecines had a
special fondness for meat. And as savanna-dwelling, tool-using animals, they had
a developed capacity and plenty of opportunity to scavenge and hunt. As for
seeking the safety of trees, we do have the fossil evidence of curved fingers and
toes and the chimpanzeelike long arms and short legs.

Not so long ago scientists believed that monkeys and apes were strict
vegetarians. After meticulous observation in the wild, most primates turned out
to be omnivores. Like humans, they ear both plant and animal foods. Being rather
small creatures, monkeys necessarily prey mostly on insects rather than on game.
And a significant amount of their insect eating is simply a natural by-product of
the consumption of leaves and fruit. When they encounter a leaf with a weevil
wrapped in it, or a fig with a worm in it, they do not spit out the intruder. If
anything, they spit out the leaf or fruit, a practice that produces a steady rain
ot half-chewed plant food as the troop progresses from tree to tree.

As among most human populations, monkeys usually eat only relatively small
amounts of animal food compared to plant food. This is not a matter of choice,
bur simply of the difficulties monkeys confront in obtaining a steady supply of
animal flesh. Studies in Namibia and Botswana show that baboons will stop eating
virtually everything else when insects swarm. They prefer animal matter first;
roots, seeds, fruits, and flowers second; and leaves and grass third. At certain
seasons of the year, they spend as much as 75 percent of their eating time on
insects. Several species of large monkeys not only consume insects but actually
hunt small game. My reconstruction of the australopithecine way of life gains
plausibility from the fact that the most accomplished hunters among monkeys
appear ro be grounddwelling baboons that live in open country. During a year of
observation near Gelgil, Kenya, Robert Harding observed forty-seven small
vertebrates being killed and eaten by baboons. The most common prey were infant
gazelles and antelopes. If mere baboons are capable of capturing infant gazelles
and antelopes, the early australopithecines cannot have been less capable.

Among extant nonhuman primates, chimpanzees are the most ardent meat eaters. The
time and effort expended m termiring and anting alone suggest the degree of their
fondness for animal flesh. And let us not forget the painful bites and stings
that they risk in order to get at these tidbits. Nor do chimpanzees confine their
pursuit of animal flesh to anting and termiting. They actively hunt and eat at
least twenty-three species of mammals, including several kinds of monkeys and
baboons, galagos, bush bucks, bush pigs, duikers, mice, rars, squirrels, shrews,
mongooses, and hyraxes. They also kill and eat chimpanzee and even human babies
if they get a chance. At Gombe, over the course of a decade, observers witnessed
the consumption of ninety-five small animals-mostly infant baboons, monkeys, and
bush pigs. This is only a partial accounting because the chimpanzees consumed
additional animals out of sight of the observers. Altogether, Gombe chimpanzees
devoted about 10 percent of their time spent on feeding to the pursuit and
consumption of game.

Chimpanzees usually hunt cooperatively and share their quarry with each other. In
fact, if a chimpanzee is unable to get others to join in, it will abandon the
hunt. Throughout the entire process of killing, distributing, and consuming prey
animals, they display an unusual level of social interaction and excitement.
During the hunt, anywhere from three to nine chimpanzees try to surround the prey
animal. They keep positioning and repositioning themselves for as long as an
hour, trying to cut off potential escape routes.

Both males and females hunt and consume meat. During an eight-year period, from
1974 to 1981, females captured or stole, and then ate, at least part of
forty-four prey animals, not counting another twenty-one prey animals that they
attacked or seized but were unable to hold on to. Males hunted more than females
and consumed more meat. Chimpanzees occasionally share plant foods, but they
always share meat unless the prey is captured by a solitary chimpanzee in the
forest. Meat-sharing often results from persistent "begging." The supplicant
holds an outstretched hand under the meat possessor's mouth, or parts the lips of
a meat-chewing companion. If these tactics fail, the supplicant may begin to
whimper and to express rage and frustration. Van Lawick-Goodall describes how a
young chimp named Mr. Worzle threw a tantrum when Goliath, a dominant male,
refused to share the body of a baby baboon with him. Mr. Worzle followed Goliath
from branch to branch, hand outstretched and whimpering. "When Goliath pushed
Worzle's hand away for the eleventh time, the lower-ranking male . . . hurled
himself backward off the branch, screaming and hitting wildly at the surrounding
vegetation. Goliath looked at him and then, with a great effort (using hands,
teeth, and one foot), tore his prey in two and handed the entire hindquarters to
Worzle."

OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/

>
>



Nityaram
2004-08-13 17:43:28 EST
www.omjesus.net

Jahnu <jahnu@india.com> wrote in message news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea0g8leftbl8l0f2med@4ax.com>...
> Jesus & vegetarianism
>
> So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life,
> energy, mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart
> mind soul, etc., well we all agree to that.
>
> To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not
> even for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were
> vegetarians, see below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the
> spiritual world and we should not unnecessarily use our valuable time
> in mundane pursuits. Unless we give up material life and turn with
> great determination towards spiritual life our life will be a loss and
> end up in disappointment.
>
> On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the
> flesh and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological
> concepts that were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on
> and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.
>
> Quote from the book "Food for peace":
>
> Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ
> ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But
> close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast
> majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and
> other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.
> For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a
> woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original
> Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat".
> So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."
>
> The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never
> used in connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered
> him fish and a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which
> one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
> Jesus eating meat.
>
> This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall
> conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall
> eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
> (Isaiah 7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good
> discretion in man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the
> sentence is omitted in Matthew 1:23).
>
> Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you
> had known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you
> would not condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly
> disapproves of the killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from
> Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God
> more than burnt offerings..." (note: again the the 2nd part of the
> sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).
>
> He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently
> driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the
> money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).
>
> His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade
> (which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders'
> den").
>
> We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was
> refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and
> wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)
>
> But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to
> Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve
> disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally
> reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than
> his master..." (John 14:16).
>
> The seven are:
>
> 1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom.
> XII,6)
>
> 2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus
> (about 160 AD) is stating:
>
> "...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives
> the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes
> as follow: '...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the
> government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been
> called the Just by all from the time of our savior to the present day;
> for there were many that bore the name James.
>
> 'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong
> drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not
> anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was
> permitted to enter the holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen
> garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple,
> and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the
> people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in
> consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of
> God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post
> Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I,
> p.125)
>
> It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of
> Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary
> was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child.
> That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole
> family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense
> the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's
> womb" is most indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.
>
> 3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were
> widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of
> Jesus as ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from
> eating of flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and
> drink and water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and
> winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to
> others."
>
> 4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon
> dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue.
> Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and
> vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the
> extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."
>
> (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)
> (Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of
> John the Baptist.)
>
> 5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food
> as told by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as
> Matthews. (Clement/Stromata III,4,26)
>
> 6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and
> faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists'
> followers, must have followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above
> under Matthew)
>
> Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..."
> (Roman 14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether
> somewhat less categorical.
>
> Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
> the Fathers of the early Church:
>
> "...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
> eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
> who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
> professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
> that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
> which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
> petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
> Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).
>
> This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the
> writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).
> "...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens
> worship of devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through
> participation in which a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..."
> (2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)
>
> Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of
> his hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and
> hearts by the slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."
> Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and
> vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a
> temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables,
> roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of
> Alexandria (Titus Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)
>
> "...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of
> animals to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of
> demonic origin." And about the early Christians: "...No streams of
> blood are among them. No dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are
> horrible smells of flesh meats among them or disagreeable fumes from
> the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)
>
> A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much
> cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the
> Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the
> authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.
>
> The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating
> is clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
> face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it.
> They will be yours for food..."
>
> However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden
> permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts
> of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that
> moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are
> given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food
> for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you
> everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in
> it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)
>
> Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned
> asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the
> Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.
>
> St. Jerome says:
> "...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second
> blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the
> first benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce
> according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning,
> but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses
> to the human race, (Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your
> wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the
> beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the
> deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to
> the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our
> teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that
> God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ
> Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the
> Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I
> am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."
>
> At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave
> bills of divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we
> reached the deluge. But after the deluge, together with the giving of
> the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and
> divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision
> was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something
> superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega
> passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no
> longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised,
> nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good
> not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was
> consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,18)
> "The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can
> have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD
> 320 - 79)
>
> Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
> Christians as abstaining from meat:
>
> Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
> early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
> ..."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."
>
> Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
> the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
> suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."
>
> And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
> assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
> put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
> plate of one sort of innocent food..."
>
> The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
> an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his
> brother... And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his
> own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who
> so eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill
> neither men, nor beasts, nor the food which goes into your mouth...
> For life comes from life, and from death comes always death. For
> everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And your
> bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what
> your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace
>
> And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind
> but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose
> of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is
> reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally.
> It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...
> Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us
> in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."
>
> Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is
> as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no
> power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in
> tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend
> themselves, who are utterly in our power..."
>
> Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
> that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.
>
> His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
> of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many
> rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly
> says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill,"
> they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions
> indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons.
> This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about
> unlimited calamities..."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Paul's teachings and interpretations
>
>
> And it's absolutely amazing that Paul actually tells it himself:
>
> "...One man's faith (in the idea of salvation from the cross) allows
> him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith (in the cross) is
> weak, eats only vegetables..." (Roman 14:2)
>
> The smoking gun is right there: It is Paul's concept of faith in the
> salvific nature of the cross, declaring the Torah obsolete which leads
> him to view the vegetarianism of the apostles as dietetic fanaticism
> of Nazarene Jewish origin and hence dispensable.
>
> Further proof are at hand. In fact the following statements make no
> sense whatsoever, unless we agree that Paul needed to convince a large
> section of early Christians, that there was no problem with eating
> meat.
>
> "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.
> All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that
> causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink
> wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So
> whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and
> God..." (Rom 14:20-22)
>
> In other words it is O.K. to eat meat as long as nobody is offended
> and the community of Christians is not disturbed.
>
> He goes on:
> "If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
> whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
> But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then
> do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for
> conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For
> why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take
> part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of
> something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you
> do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor 10:27-31)
>
> In other words as far as eating meat, even when offered in sacrifice,
> Paul had no scruples unless it is declared, that meat is offered in
> sacrifice. In this case do not eat it, to avoid to offend others.
>
> It is very clear: It needed to be saying that meat eating is allowed.
> There were Christians who are vegetarians. Beware of meat offered in
> sacrifice. Because besides the vegetarian Christians there were others
> who were less strict but who would not approve of the idea of eating
> meat offered in sacrifice. Meat eating in general is allowed,
> according to Paul:
>
> "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of
> conscience, for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'"
> (1 Cor 10:25-26)
>
> Again, this makes no sense unless there must have been Christians who
> found it difficult to reconcile with their conscience to buy meat in
> the market.
>
> And again more:
>
> "As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
> unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then
> for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what
> you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating
> destroy your brother for whom Christ died." (Roman 14:14-15)
>
> Later this point of view is reflected in Timothy, possibly addressing
> early Christian sects like the later banned Enkratites:
>
> "...They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
> foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
> believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good,
> and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving..."
> (1 Timothy 4:3-4)
>
> So we can see that there was obviously a large group of people who did
> not agree with meat eating in general (hence he says don't let it be a
> matter of conscience to you when buying meat in the market).
> Definitely the issue was not about eating food offered in sacrifice,
> as made out by Christian theologians.
>
> The tensions between Paul are further reflected in the way how he
> addresses the disciples of Jesus. He makes it perfectly clear that
> their opinions are not what Paul is overly concerned with.
>
> He sarcastically describes the Apostles in Jerusalem (James, Peter) as
> "those Super Apostles", "those reputed to be the Pillars":
> "...But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those
> "super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have
> knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way."
> (2 Cor 11:5-6)
>
> He clearly is preaching a different Jesus then the Apostles in
> Jerusalem. Hence he warns his followers:
>
> "...For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER THAN THE
> JESUS WE PREACHED, or if you receive a different spirit from the one
> you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put
> up with it easily enough."
> (2 Cor 11:4)
>
> "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
> than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we
> have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you
> a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally
> condemned!" (Gal 1:8-9)
>
> "And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
> from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
> us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles,
> deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
> for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:12-14)
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