Bible Discussion: The "TEN" In The N T

The "TEN" In The N T
Posts: 27

Report Abuse

Use this form to report abuse or request takedown.
The requests are usually processed within 48 hours.

Page: 1 2 3   Next  (First | Last)

Frank Trebor
2004-07-03 21:37:25 EST

Someone asked where the "TEN" were in the New Testament........

[1]
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew
4:10

[2]
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:21
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
the Godhead is like unto
gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29

[3]
That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
I LORD will not hold him guiltless Timothy 6:1

[4]
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath
day: Matthew 24:20 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27 For he spake in
a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the
seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:4 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he
that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as
God did from his. Hebrews 4:9-10 For by him were all things created, that
are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they
be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

[5]
Honour thy father and thy mother: Matthew 19:19

[6]
Thou shalt not kill, Romans 13:9

[7]
Thou shalt not commit adultery, Matthew 19:18

[8]
Thou shalt not steal, Romans 13:9

[9]
Thou shalt not bear false witness, Matthew 19:18

[10]
Thou shalt not covet, Romans 7:7


[After Jesus death we have these also recorded]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
Luke 23:56 and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.



Stephen Korsman
2004-07-04 04:18:43 EST

"Frank Trebor" <frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1088905010.869349@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
>
> Someone asked where the "TEN" were in the New Testament........
>
> [1]
> Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew
> 4:10
>
> [2]
> Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:21
> Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
> the Godhead is like unto
> gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29
>
> [3]
> That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
> I LORD will not hold him guiltless Timothy 6:1
>
> [4]
> But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath
> day: Matthew 24:20 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
> and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27 For he spake in
> a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the
> seventh day from all his works.
> Hebrews 4:4 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he
> that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as
> God did from his. Hebrews 4:9-10 For by him were all things created, that
> are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they
> be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
> created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

Notice how all the others are directly commanded. These are indirect
statements about the Sabbath, with nothing to do with a command to keep the
day.

See follow-up posts in this thread.

God bless,
Stephen

--
--
Stephen Korsman
s*n@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
http://p217.ezboard.com/ftheabyss77549frm39

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA




Stephen Korsman
2004-07-04 04:22:17 EST

"Frank Trebor" <frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1088905010.869349@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
> And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
> and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27

Mark 2, Matt 12, Luke 6

(Mar 2:23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the
sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of
corn.
(Mar 2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the
sabbath day that which is not lawful?
(Mar 2:25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he
had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
(Mar 2:26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the
high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for
the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
(Mar 2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:
(Mar 2:28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

(Mat 12:1) At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and
his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
(Mat 12:2) But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:3) But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he
was hungry, and they that were with him;
(Mat 12:4) How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread,
which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him,
but only for the priests
(Mat 12:5) Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
(Mat 12:6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the
temple.
(Mat 12:7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
(Mat 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:9) And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
(Mat 12:10) And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And
they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they
might accuse him.
(Mat 12:11) And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he
not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
(Mat 12:12) How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is
lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

(Luk 6:5) And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the
sabbath.
(Luk 6:9) Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful
on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy
it?



Adventists claim that these passages show that the Sabbath is still in
effect, and Christians are obliged to keep it. They claim that Mark 2:27, in
saying that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, proves
that the Sabbath was not given to Israel alone, but to all mankind.

They are taking the verse out of context. If one goes back and read the
entire passage along with verse 27, one sees that Jesus was not speaking
about whether or not the Sabbath was made for Jews or for all mankind for
all ages and in all places. Jesus was accused of breaking the law in many
places in the Bible, and the Sabbath was one they often picked on him for -
here he is pointing out that the purpose of the Sabbath is to serve man, not
a case of man being made to glorify the Sabbath. By removing the verse from
its context, Sabbath keepers turn the meaning around. This is a
well-documented logical fallacy, called the false dichotomy. The verse, out
of context, is presented as presenting two points (the false dichotomy) -
the Sabbath was made for man, or the Sabbath was made for Jews. But in
context, the actual dichotomy is between the legalist/Pharisee perspective
(the Sabbath was more important than those keeping it) and Jesus'
perspective (the Sabbath was made to serve those keeping it.)

When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, he was NOT contrasting
mankind with Judaism. He was contrasting the LAW with MAN ... what he was
saying is that the LAW was made to serve MAN, NOT man being made to keep the
law. There is NOTHING about Jews or Israel AT ALL in this text ...
Adventists are reading something into the text that is not there, and, by
removing a statement from its context, making it say something that doesn't
even fit into the actual context at all. The Old Testament is explicit - the
Sabbath was made for Israel, and is explicitly called the sign of the Old
Covenant. We all know that this was abolished at the Cross. And the Old
Testament also tells us clearly that the Sabbath was given to MOSES, and NOT
before the time of Moses. That alone proves that the Sabbath was not given
to ALL mankind, because Adam, Noah, and Abraham never knew of it or kept it.
See the article here for more info on that.

Jesus is not saying that Christians must keep the Sabbath. That is taking
Jesus' words out of context. Does Jesus actually preach anywhere about the
future Christian Church and the laws it must keep? Such an idea is not found
ANYWHERE in this passage, or in the New Testament. What Jesus is doing is
instructing the Sabbath-keeping Jews of his day on how to deal with God's
law. They were legalistic, and put the law above love and mercy. Jesus is
turning that around, and saying that the Sabbath God gave them is not meant
as an end in its own right, but as a means to serve mankind. Jesus is
explaining that the Sabbath is a means for grace and mercy, and not what the
Pharisees made it into - the holy of holies, the final end of Jewish
worship. This principle is equally valid in ALL Christian denominations.
There is nothing at all in the text to suggest that Jesus is proclaiming
that the Sabbath will continue. He is merely using a real problem of the
time to expound a principle of mercy.

Jesus is actually discussing the law as a whole here - my reasoning is twofo
ld. First, the Pharisees were always trying to find him breaking the law -
the Sabbath, hand-washing, and so forth - and so this is just one of the
several instances where Jesus gives us insight into the true nature and
purpose of the law. Second, Jesus actually gives another example of
law-breaking unrelated to the Sabbath - David was so hungry he ate a certain
bread that could not be eaten by anyone other than the high priest. This has
nothing to do with the Sabbath, yet Jesus uses this example to prove that
the law exists to serve man, not man to serve the law. Based on this, I feel
that Jesus is not promoting the Sabbath at all here, and this passage
actually does not deal with the Sabbath's implications for Christians. All
that Jesus is doing is showing, using two contemporary examples, how the law
is meant to be used. So he is not making a statement at all about who the
Sabbath was given to - Israel versus mankind. The Bible has already spoken
on that - the Sabbath was for Israel. What Jesus is saying - as I see it -
is not about mankind's relationship with the Sabbath, but the relationship
between PEOPLE and the Sabbath - did people have to serve the Sabbath or did
the Sabbath exist to serve the people Jesus was speaking to? And this is
just one of several examples used to show the nature of the law.

What of the statements that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? Adventists want
the text so say that because Jesus is "Lord even of the Sabbath", it means
that it is his special day. But just go back and read the entire passage -
it actually is saying that Jesus is ABOVE the law, that it is HE who
determines when a law is applicable, and when it is legalistic. Basically,
the text is saying NOT that Jesus' special day is the Sabbath, but that
Jesus is Lord OVER the Sabbath JUST as he is Lord over every other aspect of
nature, the law, and the universe, and he controls it completely.

Circumcision too was made for man, and not man for circumcision.


--
--
Stephen Korsman
s*n@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
http://p217.ezboard.com/ftheabyss77549frm39

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA



Stephen Korsman
2004-07-04 04:23:17 EST

"Frank Trebor" <frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1088905010.869349@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
> But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath
> day: Matthew 24:20

Matt 24:20

Mat 24:3-21 KJV:
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him
privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be
the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
you.
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive
many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not
troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and
there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
(9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and
ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
(10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and
shall hate one another.
(11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
(12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a
witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by
Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
understand:)
(16) Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
(17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of
his house:
(18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.



Adventists and other Sabbath observers claim that verse 20 in this passage
shows that Jesus foretold the keeping of the Sabbath by Christians. To walk
too far on the Sabbath was to break the Sabbath, and Christians should pray
not to break the Sabbath by having to flee Jerusalem on that day. Even
today, several of these groups frown on walking an excessive distance, and
consider it to be work, and therefore constituting a breaking of the Sabbath
commandment.

But is that really what Jesus meant? He, who permitted the saving of a
sheep's life on the Sabbath by pulling it from a pit, who told the paralysed
man to get up and carry away his bed on the Sabbath, said we should pray not
to have to break the Sabbath by saving our own lives? Isn't that just a
little absurd?

To get to an understanding of what Jesus really meant, all we need to do to
find the answer is look at history, and look at the other examples Jesus
uses in that verse, and then examine the actual context - what was Jesus
really talking about?

This prophecy refers primarily to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but may
also refer to future events near the end of time.

First, Jesus knew that the Pharisees locked the gates to Jerusalem on the
Sabbath to prevent people from walking too far, which was considered work.
Therefore, anyone in Jerusalem at the time the Romans attacked, if that day
were a Sabbath, would be locked in and would not be able to flee. Jesus
cannot be telling us that we may not save our lives by fleeing on the
Sabbath, because he himself said we could heal on the Sabbath. So if Sabbath
keepers were following his own example, they would not have a problem with
saving their lives by fleeing on the Sabbath - they would have a proper
perspective, and have no qualms with running away. Jesus knew that the gates
would be locked on the Sabbath and they would not be able to escape - and
this is why they had to be concerned, but because it was contrary to God's
law to walk too far to save your life on that day.

Second, we get to the other examples of things they should hope/pray to
avoid. If we draw a parallel between them, and compare them, we see they all
follow the same pattern. Winter ... a physical problem making travel
unpleasant and difficult and more dangerous due to extreme cold, not
disobedience to God's law if they travelled in winter. Pregnancy ... the
further into pregnancy you go, the more difficult it becomes to run, hide,
and sleep in the bush - a physical problem, and not disobedience to God's
law to travel while pregnant. Having a young child - they are difficult to
control, to care for, and are more vulnerable to the elements, and no parent
would want to put a child through the physical and emotional trauma of
running away from soldiers - again, a physical problem, and not disobedience
to God. So ... when we get to the Sabbath, do we classify it as a physical
problem (locked gates,) or do we really believe that Christ is saying that
his followers should pray not to have to offend him by fleeing certain death
on the Sabbath, when Jesus told the Jews it was not unlawful to heal and
save lives and even pick grain or fish a sheep out of a hole on the Sabbath?

Is Jesus really upholding the laws of the Pharisees here, and are we
expected to live by these laws too?

I believe that the Adventist position goes against the principle of the
Gospel. Jesus was not contradicting his own teaching, and proclaiming that
we should worry about breaking the Sabbath by fleeing for our lives. He was
simply being practical. So, then, should we.


--
--
Stephen Korsman
s*n@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
http://p217.ezboard.com/ftheabyss77549frm39

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA



Stephen Korsman
2004-07-04 04:24:04 EST

"Frank Trebor" <frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1088905010.869349@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
> For he spake in
> a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the
> seventh day from all his works.
> Hebrews 4:4 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he
> that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as
> God did from his. Hebrews 4:9-10 For by him were all things created, that
> are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they
> be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
> created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

Heb 4:1-11

(Heb 4:1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
(Heb 4:2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the
word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that
heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I
have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works
were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Heb 4:4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(Heb 4:5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(Heb 4:6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and
they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(Heb 4:7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so
long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts.
(Heb 4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward
have spoken of another day.
(Heb 4:9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(Heb 4:10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from
his own works, as God did from his.
(Heb 4:11) Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall
after the same example of unbelief.



Hebrews goes through a list of OLD Covenant signs and compares them to the
NEW Covenant reality. If Hebrews is to be consistent in its treatment of
these OC signs, the Sabbath must be treated the same was as circumcision,
lambicide, and priests.

Adventists claim that the Sabbath is different in this case, that it
continues for Christians today, based on Heb 4:9.

Only by obliterating context can that assertion be made. Go back and read
this section quoted above. Then go and read the ENTIRE book, without
selective quoting, and see if you come up with the idea that the Sabbath is
the single exception to the Old Covenant symbols that are abolished, in
spite of the fact that the book treats it in exactly the same way as those
that are abolished. It compares the Old Covenant lamb sacrifice with Jesus'
death ... the former no longer applicable to Christians. It compares the
Levitical priesthood with the priesthood of Christ ... the former being no
longer relevant to Christians. It compares the Sabbath to our rest in Christ
... and, with no evidence whatsoever, Adventists claim that this is the
single exception within this book, when the book itself treats it exactly
the same as the rest? Sorry, but people who take the Bible for what it says,
and not what they want it to say, won't fall for that.

This text is proof once again that destroys the Sabbatarian point of view.
In verse 4, Paul (the author was probably/possibly Paul, and many believe
him to be Paul, so we will call him Paul) treats the Sabbath with such
nonchalance it is highly doubtful that he had any respect for it any
longer - he says in a blas\ufffd fashion, "somewhere" as if the actual
commandment which EVERYONE should have been able to reference in Exodus or
Deuteronomy was quite irrelevant. Every observant Jew, anyone who knew the
Bible at all, would know exactly where the Sabbath was given, where the 10
Commandments were! Why is Paul implying here that this is NOT important?
Such a casual remark about the Sabbath hardly fits in with the rest of the
claims Adventists are making about Heb 4:1-11.

Paul goes on to state that God set aside ANOTHER DAY - "TODAY". That is what
it says in the literal Greek. If we read the ACTUAL words of Heb 4:1-11, it
becomes clear that the Sabbath was for the Jews - quantity time, one
seventh - but TODAY - all the time, continuously, quality time - is for the
Christian.

Heb 4:10 is clearly talking of ETERNAL rest which we find with Christ. Where
Hebrews DOES mention a DAY, it is in 4:4 and 4:7 ... these are contrasted as
being the Sabbath given to Israel, and the "today" given to those who, after
Christ's atonement, accept the Gospel message. We therefore no longer keep
the Sabbath, we find our rest TODAY - and the text quoted by the author of
Hebrews, Ps 95:7-8, supports our view fully - this is a continuous call to
eternal rest, not a weekly reminder of a shadow for which we have already
seen the reality.

The Sabbath is not a commandment we have to obey. Circumcision is also not a
commandment we have to obey. Sacrificing lambs is also not a commandment we
have to obey. God gave all these commandments, but the New Testament shows
us (Acts 15, Gal 5:2, Col 2:14-17, Hebrews) that these things - Sabbath,
circumcision, lamb sacrifice, etc., are all fulfilled in Christ. They have -
as you said - been made FULL in Christ, so we no longer perform empty lamb
sacrifices, we no longer perform useless acts of circumcision, we no longer
keep worthless Sabbaths. Christ is our Lamb, Christ is our Sabbath, and we
are baptised into Christ instead circumcised.

The Sabbath, like the lamb sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, is
abolished ... and that is exactly what the entire book of Hebrews is about.
ALL these things are abolished and replaced with something better ... the
lamb with the eucharist, the levitical priesthood with Christ's
mediatorship, and the Sabbath with a more perfect rest - eternal rest. So,
to Christians the Sabbath has as much relevance as the Levites and lamb
killing does.

Hebrews ABOLISHES the Sabbath!!! It tells us that while God gave OUR
ANCESTOR the 7th day, he gives US another day - TODAY.

One reply I got to this from an Adventist reads as follows:
Jesus did not, but "if" he did, "then would he not afterward have spoken of
another day?" If He did, where? Why wasn't Paul aware of it?

Paul is NOT saying, "then would he not have spoken of another day?" ... the
Adventist has adding a question mark to what the Bible has as a STATEMENT.
Go back and look in the Bible ... it is NOT a question. Then go and look in
MODERN English Bibles, and any other language you understand ... it is not a
question there. Hebrews is saying that if Joshua had not given them rest,
God would not have spoken of another day ... this shows that since Joshua
DID give them rest, God DID indeed speak of another day. Don't let
Adventists change the Bible ... accept it as it is.


--
--
Stephen Korsman
s*n@theotokos.co.za
www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
http://p217.ezboard.com/ftheabyss77549frm39

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA



Griz
2004-07-04 12:03:15 EST
Hi Stephen:

>Notice how all the others are directly commanded. These are indirect
>statements about the Sabbath, with nothing to do with a command to keep the
>day.
>
>See follow-up posts in this thread.
>
>God bless,
>Stephen

Actually, I was thinking the same thing about Frank Trebor's comments.
We need to be careful of such 'fishing expeditions' where we try to force
God's word into the form that we by ourselves have already decided it should
be.


Jesus specifically "brings forths" all of the Decalogue into the New
Covenant with rather direct re-issuing of commands -- except for the 4th. I
know that Frank was really trying to establish precidence in the NT for
continuing with the ceremonial Sabbath and placing it upon Gentile
believers -- but the best that could be found were some rather indirect
statements about it -- plus the passage from Heb 4 where we are told the
Sabbath is not about a day, but about rest: rest from our attempts at
justification by means of the Law.

Whereas we are specifically told in Corinthians (IIRC) not to act as any
person's judge when it comes to ceremony, diet, or Sabbaths.

Yours in Christ,

Griz

Frank Trebor said:

> [1]
> Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew
> 4:10
>
> [2]
> Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:21
> Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
> the Godhead is like unto
> gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29
>
> [3]
> That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
> I LORD will not hold him guiltless Timothy 6:1
> [4]
> But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath
> day: Matthew 24:20 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
> and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27 For he spake in
> a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the
> seventh day from all his works.
> Hebrews 4:4 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he
> that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as
> God did from his. Hebrews 4:9-10 For by him were all things created, that
> are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they
> be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
> created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16



S*@yahoo.com
2004-07-04 19:48:26 EST
"Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they
rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment."
Luke 23:56 NKJV

Check out more at:
http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/thanks_4_life/sabbath.htm

"Griz" <griz@cois.no-no.on.ca> wrote in message news:<10egbbv953j079f@corp.supernews.com>...
> Hi Stephen:
>
> >Notice how all the others are directly commanded. These are indirect
> >statements about the Sabbath, with nothing to do with a command to keep the
> >day.
> >
> >See follow-up posts in this thread.
> >
> >God bless,
> >Stephen
>
> Actually, I was thinking the same thing about Frank Trebor's comments.
> We need to be careful of such 'fishing expeditions' where we try to force
> God's word into the form that we by ourselves have already decided it should
> be.
>
>
> Jesus specifically "brings forths" all of the Decalogue into the New
> Covenant with rather direct re-issuing of commands -- except for the 4th. I
> know that Frank was really trying to establish precidence in the NT for
> continuing with the ceremonial Sabbath and placing it upon Gentile
> believers -- but the best that could be found were some rather indirect
> statements about it -- plus the passage from Heb 4 where we are told the
> Sabbath is not about a day, but about rest: rest from our attempts at
> justification by means of the Law.
>
> Whereas we are specifically told in Corinthians (IIRC) not to act as any
> person's judge when it comes to ceremony, diet, or Sabbaths.
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz
>
> Frank Trebor said:
>
> > [1]
> > Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
> Matthew
> > 4:10
> >
> > [2]
> > Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5:21
> > Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that
> > the Godhead is like unto
> > gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. Acts 17:29
> >
> > [3]
> > That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
> > I LORD will not hold him guiltless Timothy 6:1
> > [4]
> > But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath
> > day: Matthew 24:20 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
> > and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27 For he spake in
> > a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the
> > seventh day from all his works.
> > Hebrews 4:4 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he
> > that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as
> > God did from his. Hebrews 4:9-10 For by him were all things created, that
> > are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they
> > be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were
> > created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

S*@yahoo.com
2004-07-05 08:34:44 EST
Sorry I forgot the "l".

http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/thanks_4_life/sabbath.html

John Ings
2004-07-05 08:48:35 EST
On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:37:25 +1200, "Frank Trebor"
<frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Thou shalt not bear false witness, Matthew 19:18

So why does the Bible tell us so many lies then?

## Some would keep their brains on a fact free diet.



John
2004-07-05 17:23:19 EST

"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotokos.co.za> wrote in message
news:xOydnYVBPbfiXXrdRVn-hQ@is.co.za...
>
> "Frank Trebor" <frank_trebor@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1088905010.869349@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
> > And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
> > and not man for the sabbath: Mark 2:27
>
> Mark 2, Matt 12, Luke 6
>
> (Mar 2:23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on
the
> sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of
> corn.
> (Mar 2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the
> sabbath day that which is not lawful?
> (Mar 2:25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when
he
> had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
> (Mar 2:26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the
> high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for
> the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
> (Mar 2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not
man
> for the sabbath:
> (Mar 2:28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
>
> (Mat 12:1) At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn;
and
> his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to
eat.
> (Mat 12:2) But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
> disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
> (Mat 12:3) But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he
> was hungry, and they that were with him;
> (Mat 12:4) How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the
shewbread,
> which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him,
> but only for the priests
> (Mat 12:5) Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days
the
> priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
> (Mat 12:6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the
> temple.
> (Mat 12:7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and
not
> sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
> (Mat 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
> (Mat 12:9) And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
> (Mat 12:10) And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And
> they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that
they
> might accuse him.
> (Mat 12:11) And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
> shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he
> not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
> (Mat 12:12) How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is
> lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
>
> (Luk 6:5) And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the
> sabbath.
> (Luk 6:9) Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it
lawful
> on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy
> it?
>
>
>
> Adventists claim that these passages show that the Sabbath is still in
> effect, and Christians are obliged to keep it. They claim that Mark 2:27,
in
> saying that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, proves
> that the Sabbath was not given to Israel alone, but to all mankind.
>
> They are taking the verse out of context. If one goes back and read the
> entire passage along with verse 27, one sees that Jesus was not speaking
> about whether or not the Sabbath was made for Jews or for all mankind for
> all ages and in all places. Jesus was accused of breaking the law in many
> places in the Bible, and the Sabbath was one they often picked on him
for -
> here he is pointing out that the purpose of the Sabbath is to serve man,
not
> a case of man being made to glorify the Sabbath.

True, but that does not mean man can change the day.
You're right about the context, but it is still clear from
Jesus's words that the day was made for man, not for the Jew only.
Secondly, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.

You want to claim that it is a "sign between God and the Jews"
yes, it was, but lets look a little closer at that verse.
What was it a sign of?
Ex 31:17
17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six
days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He
rested and was refreshed.'"
NKJV
It signified God as creator.
Notice:
Ps 96:5
For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
But the LORD made the heavens.
NKJV

Now an important point, did the "fathers of Israel"-
Abraham, Issac and Jacob keep the sabbath?
Jer 17:22
22 nor carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any
work, but hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
NKJV
Num 20:15
15 how our fathers went down to Egypt, and we dwelt in Egypt a long time,
and the Egyptians afflicted us and our fathers.
NKJV



By removing the verse from
> its context, Sabbath keepers turn the meaning around. This is a
> well-documented logical fallacy, called the false dichotomy. The verse,
out
> of context, is presented as presenting two points (the false dichotomy) -
> the Sabbath was made for man, or the Sabbath was made for Jews. But in
> context, the actual dichotomy is between the legalist/Pharisee perspective
> (the Sabbath was more important than those keeping it) and Jesus'
> perspective (the Sabbath was made to serve those keeping it.)
>
> When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, he was NOT contrasting
> mankind with Judaism. He was contrasting the LAW with MAN ... what he was
> saying is that the LAW was made to serve MAN, NOT man being made to keep
the
> law. There is NOTHING about Jews or Israel AT ALL in this text ...
> Adventists are reading something into the text that is not there, and, by
> removing a statement from its context, making it say something that
doesn't
> even fit into the actual context at all.

It doesn't mean you can't take that from the text.
In fact, Jesus had plenty of oportunity to say,
the Sabbath will no longer exist for my disciples.
But he never says that. In fact, he says, "it is
LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath"
Jesus does not teach abrogation of the Sabbath at all, rather
He is teaching true Sabbath observance, not a set of rules,
but a day of doing good for others.
That is the real point Jesus was making.
You conlude because Jesus was specifically
pointing out that the Sabbath was made for man,
that was not the intent of his message.
However, it is clear that Jesus could have been specific
since He was speaking to a Jewish audience.
However Jesus chose His words, and said "for man".
To say that one can not gleen "for man" just because that is
not the intent is spurious. The Sabbath was made long before
there were any Jews, at creation. Whether you believe anyone
observed it prior to Moses makes no difference in the context of this
verse and this discussion. The point remains that God made the day
holy, back at creation, and that Jesus said it was made for MAN-anthropos,
and that *HE* is Lord of the Sabbath.
Meaning what? That He can break it because He is the Lord of it?
Is that what Jesus intended? No, His words meant that He is the one
who made it, the one you Jews see here before you and criticize is the Lord
of it.
Jesus is the "WORD" , through Him all things were created.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him,
and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the
life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the
darkness did not comprehend it.
NKJV



The Old Testament is explicit - the
> Sabbath was made for Israel,

God made the Sabbath at creation.

and is explicitly called the sign of the Old
> Covenant. We all know that this was abolished at the Cross. And the Old
> Testament also tells us clearly that the Sabbath was given to MOSES, and
NOT
> before the time of Moses.

verse please

That alone proves that the Sabbath was not given
> to ALL mankind, because Adam, Noah, and Abraham never knew of it or kept
it.

verse please


> See the article here for more info on that.
>
> Jesus is not saying that Christians must keep the Sabbath. That is taking
> Jesus' words out of context. Does Jesus actually preach anywhere about the
> future Christian Church and the laws it must keep? Such an idea is not
found
> ANYWHERE in this passage, or in the New Testament.

Yes, in Mathew 5


What Jesus is doing is
> instructing the Sabbath-keeping Jews of his day on how to deal with God's
> law. They were legalistic, and put the law above love and mercy. Jesus is
> turning that around, and saying that the Sabbath God gave them is not
meant
> as an end in its own right, but as a means to serve mankind.

Amen, "serve mankind", I think you got it.

Jesus is
> explaining that the Sabbath is a means for grace and mercy, and not what
the
> Pharisees made it into - the holy of holies, the final end of Jewish
> worship. This principle is equally valid in ALL Christian denominations.
> There is nothing at all in the text to suggest that Jesus is proclaiming
> that the Sabbath will continue. He is merely using a real problem of the
> time to expound a principle of mercy.

There remains a sabbath rest-Hebrews 4:9

>
> Jesus is actually discussing the law as a whole here - my reasoning is
twofo
> ld. First, the Pharisees were always trying to find him breaking the law -
> the Sabbath, hand-washing, and so forth - and so this is just one of the
> several instances where Jesus gives us insight into the true nature and
> purpose of the law. Second, Jesus actually gives another example of
> law-breaking unrelated to the Sabbath - David was so hungry he ate a
certain
> bread that could not be eaten by anyone other than the high priest. This
has
> nothing to do with the Sabbath, yet Jesus uses this example to prove that
> the law exists to serve man, not man to serve the law. Based on this, I
feel
> that Jesus is not promoting the Sabbath at all here, and this passage
> actually does not deal with the Sabbath's implications for Christians. All
> that Jesus is doing is showing, using two contemporary examples, how the
law
> is meant to be used. So he is not making a statement at all about who the
> Sabbath was given to - Israel versus mankind. The Bible has already spoken
> on that - the Sabbath was for Israel.

God made the 7th day Holy at creation, when did it become un-holy?

You want me to believe that, God made a day Holy at creation, then waited a
couple thousand years to tell anyone, then told the Jews it was for them
alone,
the when Jesus came, the day was changed to Sunday.

That's not biblical. First, it wasn't for the Jews alone, because even the
heathen stranger was required to keep the 7th day.
Meaning that not just those who are Jewish by birth are to keep it.
Secondly, although there is no scriptual record mentioning the sabbath
prior to Moses, Abraham "kept God's laws, commandments and statutes".
Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible, God Himself instructed the
Israelites to-"keep his law, commandments and statutes" in
Exodus-Dueteronomy.
The Sabbath was given prior to a ratification of the Covenant.
You will say so was the Passover, well you are correct, and Jesus is our
passover lamb. But Jesus is not the Sabbath, He is LORD OF THE SABBATH!

Does He give us spiritual rest? Yes, but this does not mean the Sabbath
was a symbol of Christ. The Sabbath is harkened back to God as creator.



What Jesus is saying - as I see it -
> is not about mankind's relationship with the Sabbath, but the relationship
> between PEOPLE and the Sabbath - did people have to serve the Sabbath or
did
> the Sabbath exist to serve the people Jesus was speaking to? And this is
> just one of several examples used to show the nature of the law.

You may be trying to reach now. Is this where you say the Pope
has a right to change the day, because the day was made for man?
Just because it was made for man, doesn't mean man has the power to change
it.

>
> What of the statements that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? Adventists want
> the text so say that because Jesus is "Lord even of the Sabbath", it means
> that it is his special day. But just go back and read the entire passage -
> it actually is saying that Jesus is ABOVE the law, that it is HE who
> determines when a law is applicable, and when it is legalistic.

It what verse does it say that? You're trying to make Jesus a law breaker
now?
Are you saying He sinned?

Basically,
> the text is saying NOT that Jesus' special day is the Sabbath, but that
> Jesus is Lord OVER the Sabbath

No, that is not what the verse says, it says Lord *OF* the Sabbath.
You are injecting your own thoughts into the verse.

JUST as he is Lord over every other aspect of
> nature, the law, and the universe, and he controls it completely.

True He does, He created it.

>
> Circumcision too was made for man, and not man for circumcision.

Circumsicion was made for Jews, not man. It was a sign of the
Abrahamic covenant.

>
>
> --
> --
> Stephen Korsman
> skorsman@theotokos.co.za
> www.theotokos.co.za/adventism
> http://p217.ezboard.com/ftheabyss77549frm39
>
> IC | XC
> ---------
> NI | KA
>
>


Page: 1 2 3   Next  (First | Last)


2020 - UsenetArchives.com | Contact Us | Privacy | Stats | Site Search
Become our Patron