Vegetarian Discussion: Self-awareness Reaches New Heights In Animal Kingdom

Self-awareness Reaches New Heights In Animal Kingdom
Posts: 12

Report Abuse

Use this form to report abuse or request takedown.
The requests are usually processed within 48 hours.

Page: 1 2   Next  (First | Last)

Lamellae
2006-10-31 03:42:26 EST
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/290529_elephant31.html

"For those who study the development of intelligence in the animal kingdom,
self-awareness is an important measurement. An animal that is aware of
itself has a high level of cognitive ability.

Awareness can be tested by studying whether the animal recognizes itself in
a mirror. Only humans, apes and, more recently, dolphins, have been shown
to recognize that the image in the mirror is of themselves.

Now, in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers
report that an Asian elephant has passed the mirror self-recognition test.

"We thought that elephants were the next important candidate," said Diana
Reiss of the Wildlife Conservation Society, an author of the study with
Joshua Plotnik and Frans de Waal of Emory University. The researchers
tested Happy, Maxine and Patty, three females at the Bronx Zoo. They put an
8-foot-square mirror on a wall of the animals' play area and recorded what
happened with video cameras.

The elephants exhibited behavior typical of other self-aware animals.

They checked out the mirror, in some cases using their trunks to explore
what was behind it, and used it to examine parts of their bodies.

Of the three, Happy then passed the critical test, in which a visible mark
was painted on one side of her face. She could tell the mark was there only
by looking in the mirror, and she used the mirror to touch the mark with
her trunk.

Happy, Reiss said, is a "beautiful case of cognitive convergence" with
other self-aware animals."

Dutch
2006-10-31 18:23:50 EST

"Lamellae" <llae@gnatscape.net> wrote
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/290529_elephant31.html
>
> "For those who study the development of intelligence in the animal
> kingdom, self-awareness is an important measurement. An animal that is
> aware of itself has a high level of cognitive ability.
>
> Awareness can be tested by studying whether the animal recognizes itself
> in a mirror. Only humans, apes and, more recently, dolphins, have been
> shown to recognize that the image in the mirror is of themselves.
>
> Now, in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers
> report that an Asian elephant has passed the mirror self-recognition test.
>
> "We thought that elephants were the next important candidate," said Diana
> Reiss of the Wildlife Conservation Society, an author of the study with
> Joshua Plotnik and Frans de Waal of Emory University. The researchers
> tested Happy, Maxine and Patty, three females at the Bronx Zoo. They put
> an 8-foot-square mirror on a wall of the animals' play area and recorded
> what happened with video cameras.
>
> The elephants exhibited behavior typical of other self-aware animals.
>
> They checked out the mirror, in some cases using their trunks to explore
> what was behind it, and used it to examine parts of their bodies.
>
> Of the three, Happy then passed the critical test, in which a visible mark
> was painted on one side of her face. She could tell the mark was there
> only by looking in the mirror, and she used the mirror to touch the mark
> with her trunk.
>
> Happy, Reiss said, is a "beautiful case of cognitive convergence" with
> other self-aware animals."

I don't see anyone here advocating farming elephants for food, or dolphins,
or apes.




Lamellae
2006-11-01 00:28:45 EST
Ditch:

> "Lamellae" <llae@gnatscape.net> wrote
>
>>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/290529_elephant31.html
>>
>>"For those who study the development of intelligence in the animal
>>kingdom, self-awareness is an important measurement. An animal that is
>>aware of itself has a high level of cognitive ability.
>>
>>Awareness can be tested by studying whether the animal recognizes itself
>>in a mirror. Only humans, apes and, more recently, dolphins, have been
>>shown to recognize that the image in the mirror is of themselves.
>>
>>Now, in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers
>>report that an Asian elephant has passed the mirror self-recognition test.
>>
>>"We thought that elephants were the next important candidate," said Diana
>>Reiss of the Wildlife Conservation Society, an author of the study with
>>Joshua Plotnik and Frans de Waal of Emory University. The researchers
>>tested Happy, Maxine and Patty, three females at the Bronx Zoo. They put
>>an 8-foot-square mirror on a wall of the animals' play area and recorded
>>what happened with video cameras.
>>
>>The elephants exhibited behavior typical of other self-aware animals.
>>
>>They checked out the mirror, in some cases using their trunks to explore
>>what was behind it, and used it to examine parts of their bodies.
>>
>>Of the three, Happy then passed the critical test, in which a visible mark
>>was painted on one side of her face. She could tell the mark was there
>>only by looking in the mirror, and she used the mirror to touch the mark
>>with her trunk.
>>
>>Happy, Reiss said, is a "beautiful case of cognitive convergence" with
>>other self-aware animals."
>
>
> I don't see anyone here advocating farming elephants for food, or dolphins,
> or apes.

Are you learning-resistant? Elephants are the newest to join the list. Not
because elephants have changed, but because we have. See anyone here
advocating that animal study should be put away, there's nothing more to be
discovered?

Dutch
2006-11-01 02:38:49 EST
"Lame-o-la"

How childish, you do this every time...

>>>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/290529_elephant31.html
>>>
>>>"For those who study the development of intelligence in the animal
>>>kingdom, self-awareness is an important measurement. An animal that is
>>>aware of itself has a high level of cognitive ability.
>>>
>>>Awareness can be tested by studying whether the animal recognizes itself
>>>in a mirror. Only humans, apes and, more recently, dolphins, have been
>>>shown to recognize that the image in the mirror is of themselves.
>>>
>>>Now, in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, researchers
>>>report that an Asian elephant has passed the mirror self-recognition
>>>test.
>>>
>>>"We thought that elephants were the next important candidate," said Diana
>>>Reiss of the Wildlife Conservation Society, an author of the study with
>>>Joshua Plotnik and Frans de Waal of Emory University. The researchers
>>>tested Happy, Maxine and Patty, three females at the Bronx Zoo. They put
>>>an 8-foot-square mirror on a wall of the animals' play area and recorded
>>>what happened with video cameras.
>>>
>>>The elephants exhibited behavior typical of other self-aware animals.
>>>
>>>They checked out the mirror, in some cases using their trunks to explore
>>>what was behind it, and used it to examine parts of their bodies.
>>>
>>>Of the three, Happy then passed the critical test, in which a visible
>>>mark was painted on one side of her face. She could tell the mark was
>>>there only by looking in the mirror, and she used the mirror to touch the
>>>mark with her trunk.
>>>
>>>Happy, Reiss said, is a "beautiful case of cognitive convergence" with
>>>other self-aware animals."
>>
>>
>> I don't see anyone here advocating farming elephants for food, or
>> dolphins, or apes.
>
> Are you learning-resistant? Elephants are the newest to join the list. Not
> because elephants have changed, but because we have. See anyone here
> advocating that animal study should be put away, there's nothing more to
> be discovered?

I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image in
a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants be
food for humans.



Lamellae
2006-11-01 04:33:24 EST
Ditch:

>>Are you learning-resistant? Elephants are the newest to join the list. Not
>>because elephants have changed, but because we have. See anyone here
>>advocating that animal study should be put away, there's nothing more to
>>be discovered?
>
>
> I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
> surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image in
> a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants be
> food for humans.

It's about us, and the animal kingdom. Read the Subject line. Read the
first sentence. Then remember that you just compared cattle with flowers.

Dutch
2006-11-01 16:20:26 EST

"Lame-o-la"

> It's about us, and the animal kingdom.

We are part of the animal kingdom. Specifically we are discussing the merits
of regarding animals as food, elephants are not being put forth as a food
source, therefore any reference to the alleged intellectual or other
attributes of elephants is immaterial.





Smile Cabernet
2006-11-01 16:46:30 EST
Dutch wrote:

Snipety snip snip

>
> I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
> surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image in
> a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants be
> food for humans.
>
>

Are you sure you mean NOBODY? To suggest that your view extends to
everybody is naive at least, arrogant at best.

http://www.virtualcities.com/ons/wy/l/wyl36015.htm

More seriously

http://www.zimbabwedemocracytrust.org/outcomes/details?contentId=2096

There are others cites, but you can Google just as much as I can.

What you appeared to have missed from Lamellae was: "Not because
elephants have changed, but because we have".

WE have changed, what other animals do you think we could learn more
about? What if you discovered that [your food animal of choice] were
self aware?

(I know hypothetical questions disturb some, but hey, what the heck!)


Your faithfully,

bumfluff



Dutch
2006-11-01 20:57:05 EST

"Smile Cabernet" <ptfe@tefal.com> wrote
> Dutch wrote:
>
> Snipety snip snip
>
>>
>> I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
>> surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image
>> in a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants
>> be food for humans.
>>
>>
>
> Are you sure you mean NOBODY?

That means nobody *here*, nobody involved in this discussion. I have visited
this newsgroup regularly for 6 years and not one person has suggested that
elephants be farmed for food. In the "serious" link you supplied, a starving
nation is considering using surplus wild animals as food, animals that
cannot be sustained in the current environment, not farming them. That is
the argument anyway, whether it's accurate or not is another question.

> What you appeared to have missed from Lamellae was: "Not because elephants
> have changed, but because we have".

I didn't miss it, it's immaterial. I know that human attitudes have changed,
that does not mean that we are heading towards becoming vegetarians.

> WE have changed, what other animals do you think we could learn more
> about? What if you discovered that [your food animal of choice] were self
> aware?

I think all animals are self-aware to some extent. I don't consider this
mirror test to be the be-all or the end-all of determining where or how we
obtain our food.

> (I know hypothetical questions disturb some, but hey, what the heck!)

A lot of them are quite meaningless, we live in a real world with real
issues to be addressed, not in a hypothetical world.



Pearl
2006-11-02 06:05:45 EST
Dishonest "Ditch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:12kijvjes7eev80@news.supernews.com...
>
> "Smile Cabernet" <ptfe@tefal.com> wrote
> > Dutch wrote:
> >
> > Snipety snip snip
> >
> >>
> >> I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
> >> surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image
> >> in a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants
> >> be food for humans.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Are you sure you mean NOBODY?
>
> That means nobody *here*, nobody involved in this discussion.

The serial bully:
- is a convincing, practised liar and when called to account, will
make up anything spontaneously to fit their needs at that moment
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

> I have visited

read: "trolled, heavily".

> this newsgroup regularly for 6 years and not one person has suggested that
> elephants

'Mugabe Orders Elephant Slaughter To Feed Villagers
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian - May 1 2005, 6:26 pm by pearl
- 247 messages - 26 authors http://tinyurl.com/y3vt2e

> be farmed for food.

"farmed"? What difference to "alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian"?





Smile Cabernet
2006-11-02 17:57:07 EST
Dutch wrote:
> "Smile Cabernet" <ptfe@tefal.com> wrote
>> Dutch wrote:
>>
>> Snipety snip snip
>>
>>> I have no idea what you just said, but this newsgroup is about the ethics
>>> surrounding food, therefore the fact that elephants react to their image
>>> in a mirror is completely off-topic. Nobody is suggesting that elephants
>>> be food for humans.
>>>
>>>
>> Are you sure you mean NOBODY?
>
> That means nobody *here*, nobody involved in this discussion.

This was you and the OP! Great viewpoint!

>I have visited
> this newsgroup regularly for 6 years and not one person has suggested that
> elephants be farmed for food. In the "serious" link you supplied, a starving
> nation is considering using surplus wild animals as food, animals that
> cannot be sustained in the current environment, not farming them. That is
> the argument anyway, whether it's accurate or not is another question.

"starving nation" "surplus wild animals" Interesting interpretation!

>
>> What you appeared to have missed from Lamellae was: "Not because elephants
>> have changed, but because we have".
>
> I didn't miss it, it's immaterial.

Oh it's immaterial that our understanding of animals has changed, when
discussing animal ethics!

> I know that human attitudes have changed,

Not attitudes but knowledge.


> that does not mean that we are heading towards becoming vegetarians.

Who said it was?


>
>> WE have changed, what other animals do you think we could learn more
>> about? What if you discovered that [your food animal of choice] were self
>> aware?
>
> I think all animals are self-aware to some extent. I don't consider this
> mirror test to be the be-all or the end-all of determining where or how we
> obtain our food.

Surely it's part of the picture?

>
>> (I know hypothetical questions disturb some, but hey, what the heck!)
>
> A lot of them are quite meaningless, we live in a real world with real
> issues to be addressed, not in a hypothetical world.
>
>
Page: 1 2   Next  (First | Last)


2020 - UsenetArchives.com | Contact Us | Privacy | Stats | Site Search
Become our Patron