Vegetarian Discussion: Animal Emotions - II

Animal Emotions - II
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Leif Erikson
2006-05-10 18:44:35 EST
Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have
an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't
experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion
doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
*anything* that would indicate "disappointment". It
just starts hunting again.

If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets
excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
"disappointed". It may appear a little confused,
because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash", but it
doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed". In a matter of
seconds, it has forgotten all about the walk. If
instead, a few minutes later, you engage the dog with
some other enjoyable behavior, the dog will participate
with exactly the same enthusiasm as it would have done
if this secondary activity had been the initial
stimulus instead of "walk".

Animals do not experience "disappointment". It is a
complex thought outside their mental world.

Whining, Crying, Bawl
2006-05-10 19:01:15 EST

Leif Erikson wrote:
> Animals do not feel "disappointment". They don't have
> an emotional state of "hopefulness", so they can't
> experience "disappointment". If a mountain lion
> doesn't catch the deer, it doesn't mope or do
> *anything* that would indicate "disappointment". It
> just starts hunting again.
>
> If you tell your dog you're going to take it out for a
> walk, and actually get the leash out and the dog gets
> excited, but then you sit down and drink a beer and
> watch the ballgame instead, the dog is not
> "disappointed". It may appear a little confused,
> because the usual outcome (of actually going for the
> walk) did not follow the auditory signal "walk" or the
> visual/auditory signal of "pick up leash", but it
> doesn't feel "sad" or "disappointed". In a matter of
> seconds, it has forgotten all about the walk. If
> instead, a few minutes later, you engage the dog with
> some other enjoyable behavior, the dog will participate
> with exactly the same enthusiasm as it would have done
> if this secondary activity had been the initial
> stimulus instead of "walk".
>
> Animals do not experience "disappointment". It is a
> complex thought outside their mental world.


Dave wrote:


"Odd that you're the only one who agrees with yourself."

Goo responds:


"No, not that odd, Fuckwit. It's all very reasonable,
and apparent to anyone who looks at intelligently. "


Seabird
2006-05-11 09:22:08 EST
And you can tell this...how? I think there is a lot of evidence to the
contrary. See:

Richard O'Barry, Behind the Dolphin Smile
Susan McCarthy and Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, When Elephants Weep: The
Emotional Lives of Animals

I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
lived with a dog?? ???


Leif Erikson
2006-05-11 10:35:14 EST
seabird wrote:
> And you can tell this...how? I think there is a lot of evidence to the
> contrary. See:
>
> Richard O'Barry, Behind the Dolphin Smile
> Susan McCarthy and Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, When Elephants Weep: The
> Emotional Lives of Animals

Steaming load of crap. Jeff M. Masson is a failed
psychiatrist and a professor of Sanskrit. He has no
expertise in animal emotions whatever. He's doing what
you're doing, albeit with a little more literary flair:
projecting your emotional values onto animals. His
theories are not empirically testable.


>
> I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
> lived with a dog?? ???

Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots
of unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their
animals have all sorts of capabilities the animals
don't really have.

Shrubkiller
2006-05-11 13:30:43 EST

Leif Erikson wrote:
> seabird wrote:
> > And you can tell this...how? I think there is a lot of evidence to the
> > contrary. See:
> >
> > Richard O'Barry, Behind the Dolphin Smile
> > Susan McCarthy and Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, When Elephants Weep: The
> > Emotional Lives of Animals
>
> Steaming load of crap. Jeff M. Masson is a failed
> psychiatrist and a professor of Sanskrit. He has no
> expertise in animal emotions whatever. He's doing what
> you're doing, albeit with a little more literary flair:
> projecting your emotional values onto animals. His
> theories are not empirically testable.
>
>
> >
> > I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
> > lived with a dog?? ???
>
> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots
> of unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their
> animals have all sorts of capabilities the animals
> don't really have.


So Goo, you would like us to believe that you are a "sophisticated pet
owner"?

This doesn't sound very sophisticated:

.

Dave wrote:

"Odd that you're the only one who agrees with yourself."

Goo responds:


"No, not that odd, Fuckwit. It's all very reasonable,
and apparent to anyone who looks at intelligently. "


LOL!!


B*@taylorandfrancis.com
2006-05-11 14:29:52 EST

Leif Erikson wrote:
> seabird wrote:
> > And you can tell this...how? I think there is a lot of evidence to the
> > contrary. See:
> >
> > Richard O'Barry, Behind the Dolphin Smile
> > Susan McCarthy and Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, When Elephants Weep: The
> > Emotional Lives of Animals
>
> Steaming load of crap. Jeff M. Masson is a failed
> psychiatrist and a professor of Sanskrit. He has no
> expertise in animal emotions whatever. He's doing what
> you're doing, albeit with a little more literary flair:
> projecting your emotional values onto animals. His
> theories are not empirically testable.
>
>
> >
> > I don't believe that dogs are not disappointed..have you ever actually
> > lived with a dog?? ???
>
> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots
> of unsophisticated pet owners mistakenly believe their
> animals have all sorts of capabilities the animals
> don't really have.

Lotrs of unsophisticated people reading your original post probably
thought it meant something. The people who anthromorphosize dogs make
exactly the same error you do, even though you are on opposite sides of
the argument. They think they know things in an area where no one knows
much of anything. You might be right, you might be wrong and only a dog
could tell you. And he won't.

Will in New Haven


Brian
2006-05-11 14:53:30 EST

>
> Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of unsophisticated
> pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all sorts of capabilities
> the animals don't really have.

Bullshit!I've read lot's of BS about this topic.If dogs aren't aware why do
some bark at other dogs on the television?Mine does,many times he has raised
hell when he see's another dog on tv.When the scene changes and no more dog
on tv he stops barking at the tv.I do have a 62" tv so it makes it easier
for my dog to see the other dog,but none the less he is barking at another
dog as far as he's concerned.And I'll never believe that he's not!



Leif Erikson
2006-05-11 16:36:51 EST
brian wrote:
> >
> > Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of unsophisticated
> > pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all sorts of capabilities
> > the animals don't really have.
>
> Bullshit!I've read lot's of BS about this topic.If dogs aren't aware

Who said they're not "aware"? I didn't. I said they don't have a lot
of abilities that many people childishly want to attribute to them.


> why do
> some bark at other dogs on the television?Mine does,many times he has raised
> hell when he see's another dog on tv.When the scene changes and no more dog
> on tv he stops barking at the tv.I do have a 62" tv so it makes it easier
> for my dog to see the other dog,but none the less he is barking at another
> dog as far as he's concerned.And I'll never believe that he's not!

That he's not what? Not seeing the image of another dog? Why wouldn't
he be seeing it? What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?


B*@canada.com
2006-05-11 16:41:56 EST

Leif Erikson wrote:
> brian wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes. I've had lots of pets. I've observed that lots of unsophisticated
> > > pet owners mistakenly believe their animals have all sorts of capabilities
> > > the animals don't really have.
> >
> > Bullshit!I've read lot's of BS about this topic.If dogs aren't aware
>
> Who said they're not "aware"? I didn't. I said they don't have a lot
> of abilities that many people childishly want to attribute to them.



They can anticipate and many people/animal partnerships have found they
can communicate needs/wishes/commands to each other.







>
>
> > why do
> > some bark at other dogs on the television?Mine does,many times he has raised
> > hell when he see's another dog on tv.When the scene changes and no more dog
> > on tv he stops barking at the tv.I do have a 62" tv so it makes it easier
> > for my dog to see the other dog,but none the less he is barking at another
> > dog as far as he's concerned.And I'll never believe that he's not!
>
> That he's not what? Not seeing the image of another dog? Why wouldn't
> he be seeing it? What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?



Not anywhere as much as is wrong with you Goober.

LOL!!


Seabird
2006-05-11 22:21:44 EST
Well I've lived with a cat for six years. She feels pain, anger,
affection, boredom, and yes--disappointment. She has every bit as many
sides to her emotions as I have, I am quite sure. She can't read
Shakespeare or play the violin, it is true, but then I can't hunt for
mice or have kittens. :)

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