Vegetarian Discussion: What To Consider?

What To Consider?
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D*@.
2006-05-07 19:27:20 EST
When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

Rupert
2006-05-07 20:06:40 EST

dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

I have my doubts as to whether the slaughtering that goes on at
abbatoirs is really as humane as you seem to believe. I have seen
footage of what goes on in abbatoirs and it doesn't look very humane to
me. But you're right, comparing what the different animals experience
is a consideration.


GrtArtiste
2006-05-07 20:35:46 EST
"When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider "
<snip>

Why not just ask the cows what they want, and do what they tell you. If
you get an answer, by all means let us know.

GrtArtiste


Joseph Littleshoes
2006-05-07 23:41:25 EST
dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.

And after we learn how not to live off the suffering of other's we can
teach the lion to lay down with the lamb.

Even if the human animal were not brutally slaughtering other life
forms, other life forms would be doing so. Young animals will even
hunt for sport, just to stay in shape, or to get in shape to
successfully hunt.

"nature red in tooth and claw" its a jungle out there, and then there is
the heat death of the universe to consider.

(key Darth Vadar theme music)

Given the weapons that exist in the world to day it seems obvious some
very serious reconsideration must be made before we destroy what good
has been so hardly won.

But even at the best of times, the universe and our little mud ball
place in it is a very dangerous place. Susceptible to catastrophic
changes beyond orders of magnitude comprehensible to any unexposed to it.

So even if my diet were morally defensible i would still be uneasy about
the mere fact of existence, fortunately my Yoga teacher assures me its
all an illusion anyway.
---
JL

Nyx
2006-05-07 23:48:36 EST
dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
...and last time I checked, gee, I'd MUCH rather clog my arteries with
"cow" products than with a vegetable product...

...just so YOU know, there are a LOT of vegetarians/vegans out here are
who choose this lifestyle because of health. It is the humane thing for
ME to treat care about MY health and that of my family. For ME,
humanity starts at home.

Leif Erikson
2006-05-08 00:52:32 EST
Fuckwit David Harrison, cracker liar, lied:

> When considering ethically between

Causing livestock animals to live is not doing them any
"favor", Fuckwit. Animals' "getting to experience
life" is nothing to consider - zero weight.

Nyx
2006-05-08 01:52:04 EST
dh@. wrote:
> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.

You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.

For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.

The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
feelings.


Rupert
2006-05-08 03:48:33 EST

nyx wrote:
> dh@. wrote:
> > When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> > rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> > whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> > or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> > dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> > and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> > rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
> Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
> agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
> it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
> for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
> because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
> that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>
> You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
> a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
> I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
> I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
> well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
> dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
> you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>
> For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
> like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
> work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>
> The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> feelings.

I don't think David Harrison wants to imply that there is something
wrong with somebody going vegan for health reasons. He just thinks that
he has good criticisms of the arguments for veganism on the basis of
animal rights that are often made and he wants to present these
criticisms. There is no reason why the two of you should have anything
to disagree about.


Isabeau
2006-05-08 14:11:56 EST
"nyx" <nyx77@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA@comcast.com...
> dh@. wrote:
> > When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
> > rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
> > whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
> > or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
> > dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
> > and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
> > rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.


> Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
> what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
> agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
> it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
> some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
> have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
> for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
> because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
> that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>
> You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
> cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
> a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
> I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
> and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
> vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
> I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
> well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
> dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
> you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>
> For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
> rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
> like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
> work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>
> The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
> seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
> feelings.
>

Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
"no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my own
personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
then I can again see the humor in their posts.
Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell
PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol the
proof is in the good health, right?

good luck :)



Nyx
2006-05-08 21:24:53 EST
Isabeau wrote:
> "nyx" <nyx77@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:l_ednUN4nv0YQcPZRVn-uA@comcast.com...
>
>>dh@. wrote:
>>
>>> When considering ethically between tofu and grass raised beef,
>>>rice milk and grass raised dairy, etc, should we not also consider
>>>whether we'd rather be humanely slaughtered by a professional,
>>>or crushed, chopped, sliced, ripped, poisoned, drowned, smothered,
>>>dehydrated, killed by predators, injured to the point of immobility
>>>and eaten by ants, or another of the many ways that soy and
>>>rice production kill wildlife instead? Yes...yes we should. Thanks.
>
>
>
>>Ok. So I am new to this newsgroup. Here is how I see you or at least
>>what I've seen about you so far. You are anti-vegetarian/vegan and your
>>agenda is try and convert some of us back to a meat eating way of life.
>> You are out to argue every single reason for being vegan/vegetarian as
>>it relates to the treatment of animals, or at the very least you for
>>some reasn feel the need to want us to see your point of view. Now I
>>have no problem with that except one thing, and this is VERY important
>>for you to understand. Not all Vegans/Vegetarians choose the lifestyle
>>because of the animal issues. I personally don't like what goes on, but
>>that is NOT my reason for being a vegan.
>>
>>You insult those of us who choose to eat a healthy lifestyle. You can
>>cite whatever hype you want, and you will NEVER convince me that eating
>>a fat ridden cheeseburger will contain the nutrients I need. Sorry, but
>>I CHOOSE to eat the apples, oranges, green leaf lettuce, red peppers,
>>and all the HUNDREDS of other wonderful, life giving fruits and
>>vegetables. Now granted, I do CARE about the animals, but no matter what
>>I do, the killing will go on. What I care about MORE is my health and
>>well being. If you want to spend the last 10 to 15 years of YOUR life
>>dealing with heart and diabetes problems, you go right ahead. But don't
>>you dare try and convince me that my diet is wrong.
>>
>>For me, the Vegan/Vegetarian lifestyle has two components, the animal
>>rights issues and the health issues. I'm just sick and tired of people
>>like you trying to convince me to go back to a way of life that didn't
>>work for me, and I'm sure I speak for others.
>>
>>The short time I've frequented this site, EVERY single post of yours
>>seems like a waste of my time to read, but as a newby, I'm venting my
>>feelings.
>>
>
>
> Hi nyx, I am a newbie to this forum as well, don't know what I expected here
> but it shirley isn't what I have read here so far. lol I too am into the
> "no animal products" life style but not for any reason other than for my own
> personal health. I had a great many health problems at one time that
> switching over cured and I am sooooo thankful. I'm not one to try to
> convince others of switching over as I feel that is everyone's individual
> choice. Their reasons for or against are also theirs.
> I have to admit that many of the posts I read are very hilarious and have
> taken up reading them because of that. Oh yes some times I do get a little
> irked but then I realize that their just doing that to pull our chains and
> then I can again see the humor in their posts.
> Nothing any one could say or do could ever make me believe that animal
> products are either necessary or needful for the body or for good health. A
> friend recently gave me a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell
> PHD and it really helped to cement in the other information I had read as
> well as the testing our family has done concerning "animal products" lol the
> proof is in the good health, right?
>
> good luck :)
>
>
Thanks! I guess what I expected was recipies, and nice little tidbits
about how to order vegetarian dishes in restraunts, something like that.
I suppose what I thought I might find was a nice place for like minded
people to share experiences and thoughts. I am deeply disappointed.
What I have found instead is a host of trolls and so I will look
elsewhere for what I came here to seek. Some of what I have seen so far
has been humorous, other times very annoying. Now, upon reading some of
my posts, I realize I took this stuff too seriously, I should know
better than that by now. I hate to argue and will not become involved in
it, it helps nobody. Thank-you for such a candid and heartfelt story
about your life. It is inspiration to all and definitely provides ME
"proof" of how an animal product free lifestyle can have positive
affects on health. These people only know what bits and pieces they
read, and then you must be careful of the agenda's from who wrote them.
It is by testimonials like yours (and my own experience) by which I am
a beleiver.
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