Vegetarian Discussion: I_like_my_dogs_grilled_or_sautéed, _reveals_Danish_prince?

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R. Pierce Butler
2006-05-06 10:24:27 EST
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
news:e3i6ke$cob$1@reader01.news.esat.net:

> "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns97B87602AD4B7mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
>
>> Man is a predator
>
> Medical News Today
> Main Category: Biology/Biochemistry News
> Article Date: 20 Feb 2006 - 0:00am (UK)
>
> Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social
> Animals, Not Predators
>


Where are predators' eyes located on the head? Forward. Prey are placed
at the side. Where are man's eyes located?






Pearl
2006-05-06 11:21:44 EST
"R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message news:Xns97BB5FB344BF6mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
> "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
> news:e3i6ke$cob$1@reader01.news.esat.net:
>
> > "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns97B87602AD4B7mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
> >
> >> Man is a predator
> >
> > Medical News Today
> > Main Category: Biology/Biochemistry News
> > Article Date: 20 Feb 2006 - 0:00am (UK)
> >
> > Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social
> > Animals, Not Predators
> >
>
>
> Where are predators' eyes located on the head? Forward. Prey are placed
> at the side. Where are man's eyes located?

Forward-facing, giving overlapping fields of view- stereoscopic
vision for the accurate perception of distance that is required
when swinging and leaping from branch to branch through the
tree canopy where primates evolved for millions of years, and,
all the better to focus on, pick and handle foods such as fruits.

To get around this:

"One of the main defenses against predators by animals without
physical defenses is living in groups," says Sussman. "In fact,
all diurnal primates (those active during the day) live in
permanent social groups. Most ecologists agree that predation
pressure is one of the major adaptive reasons for this group-living.
In this way there are more eyes and ears to locate the predators
and more individuals to mob them if attacked or to confuse them
by scattering. There are a number of reasons that living in groups
is beneficial for animals that otherwise would be very prone to
being preyed upon."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011






R. Pierce Butler
2006-05-07 10:15:22 EST
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
news:e3iern$fsf$1@reader01.news.esat.net:

> "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns97BB5FB344BF6mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
>> "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
>> news:e3i6ke$cob$1@reader01.news.esat.net:
>>
>> > "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns97B87602AD4B7mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
>> >
>> >> Man is a predator
>> >
>> > Medical News Today
>> > Main Category: Biology/Biochemistry News
>> > Article Date: 20 Feb 2006 - 0:00am (UK)
>> >
>> > Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social
>> > Animals, Not Predators
>> >
>>
>>
>> Where are predators' eyes located on the head? Forward. Prey are
>> placed at the side. Where are man's eyes located?
>
> Forward-facing, giving overlapping fields of view- stereoscopic
> vision for the accurate perception of distance that is required
> when swinging and leaping from branch to branch through the
> tree canopy where primates evolved for millions of years, and,
> all the better to focus on, pick and handle foods such as fruits.
>
> To get around this:
>
> "One of the main defenses against predators by animals without
> physical defenses is living in groups," says Sussman. "In fact,
> all diurnal primates (those active during the day) live in
> permanent social groups. Most ecologists agree that predation
> pressure is one of the major adaptive reasons for this group-living.
> In this way there are more eyes and ears to locate the predators
> and more individuals to mob them if attacked or to confuse them
> by scattering. There are a number of reasons that living in groups
> is beneficial for animals that otherwise would be very prone to
> being preyed upon."
>
> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011
>
>
>
>
>
>

and the fangs aka eye teeth that man has? does not man hunt and kill?

Man is the ultimate predator.


Pearl
2006-05-07 11:35:08 EST
"R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message news:Xns97BC5E288AB52mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
> "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
> news:e3iern$fsf$1@reader01.news.esat.net:
>
> > "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns97BB5FB344BF6mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
> >> "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in
> >> news:e3i6ke$cob$1@reader01.news.esat.net:
> >>
> >> > "R. Pierce Butler" <spamsucks@google.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:Xns97B87602AD4B7mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1...
> >> >
> >> >> Man is a predator
> >> >
> >> > Medical News Today
> >> > Main Category: Biology/Biochemistry News
> >> > Article Date: 20 Feb 2006 - 0:00am (UK)
> >> >
> >> > Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social
> >> > Animals, Not Predators
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Where are predators' eyes located on the head? Forward. Prey are
> >> placed at the side. Where are man's eyes located?
> >
> > Forward-facing, giving overlapping fields of view- stereoscopic
> > vision for the accurate perception of distance that is required
> > when swinging and leaping from branch to branch through the
> > tree canopy where primates evolved for millions of years, and,
> > all the better to focus on, pick and handle foods such as fruits.
> >
> > To get around this:
> >
> > "One of the main defenses against predators by animals without
> > physical defenses is living in groups," says Sussman. "In fact,
> > all diurnal primates (those active during the day) live in
> > permanent social groups. Most ecologists agree that predation
> > pressure is one of the major adaptive reasons for this group-living.
> > In this way there are more eyes and ears to locate the predators
> > and more individuals to mob them if attacked or to confuse them
> > by scattering. There are a number of reasons that living in groups
> > is beneficial for animals that otherwise would be very prone to
> > being preyed upon."
> >
> > http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=38011
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> and the fangs aka eye teeth that man has?

'Most "nutritionists" assert that we have definite carnivorous leanings,
and some have even termed our incisor teeth "fangs" in defense of
their erroneous position that humans are natural meat-eaters! If you
look at the various species in the animal kingdom, each is equipped
with teeth that are ideally suited to masticate a particular type of food.
Herbivores (like the cow) have 24 molars, eight jagged incisors in the
lower jaw and a horny palate in the upper jaw. Their jaws move
vertically, laterally, forward, and backward, enabling the herbivore
to tear and grind coarse grasses. Omnivores (like the hog) may have
tusk-like canines allowing them to dig up roots. Frugivores (like the
chimpanzee) have 32 teeth: sixteen in each jaw including four incisors,
two cuspids, four bicuspids, and six molars. The cuspids are adapted
for cracking nuts, and the uniform articulation of the teeth enables the
frugivore to mash and grind fruits. On the contrary, carnivores (like
the cat family) have markedly developed canines that are long, sharp,
cylindrical, pointed, and set apart from the other teeth. Fangs and
sharp pointed teeth that penetrate and kill, that rip and tear flesh, are
a feature of all true carnivores (except certain birds). The powerful
jaws of the carnivore move only vertically, and are ideal for ripping
and tearing flesh that is swallowed virtually whole and then acted
upon by extremely potent gastric juices. Human teeth are not
designed for tearing flesh as in the lion, wolf or dog, but rather
compare closely with other fruit-eating animals. Human teeth
correspond almost identically to the chimpanzees and other frugivores.
The complete absence of spaces between human teeth characterizes
us as the archetype frugivore. The "canine" teeth of humans are short,
stout, and slightly triangular. They are less pronounced and developed
than the orangutan's, who rarely kills and eats raw flesh in its natural
environment. Human canines in no way resemble the long, round,
slender canines of the true carnivore. Human teeth are not curved
or sharp like the wolves or tigers, nor are they wide and flat like the
grass and grain-eating species. Human teeth are actually like the
fruit-eating monkeys, and the human mouth is best suited for eating
succulent fruits and vegetables. It would be extremely difficult, if
not impossible, for humans to eat raw flesh without the aid of fork
and knife. To term our incisor teeth "fangs" or even to liken them
as such is outrageous.
...'
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm

> does not man hunt and kill?

'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have
been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance
on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not
least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
>From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods
were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during
the interglacials. '
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/naturalhistory/devensian.htm

> Man is the ultimate predator.

Naturally, definitely not. Take at look at the pictures here:
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm .

And to confirm that beyond any doubt whatsoever ..

Am J Clin Nutr 1999 Sep;70(3 Suppl):532S-538S
Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease,
and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California
Seventh-day Adventists.
Fraser GE. Center for Health Research and the Department of
Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Loma Linda University, CA USA.

Results associating diet with chronic disease in a cohort of 34192
California Seventh-day Adventists are summarized. Most Seventh-day
Adventists do not smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, and there is a wide
range of dietary exposures within the population. About 50% of those
studied ate meat products <1 time/wk or not at all, and vegetarians
consumed more tomatoes, legumes, nuts, and fruit, but less coffee,
doughnuts, and eggs than did nonvegetarians. Multivariate analyses
showed significant associations between beef consumption and fatal
ischemic heart disease (IHD) in men [relative risk (RR) = 2.31 for
subjects who ate beef > or =3 times/wk compared with vegetarians],
significant protective associations between nut consumption and fatal
and nonfatal IHD in both sexes (RR approximately 0.5 for subjects
who ate nuts > or =5 times/wk compared with those who ate nuts
<1 time/wk), and reduced risk of IHD in subjects preferring whole-grain
to white bread. The lifetime risk of IHD was reduced by approximately
31% in those who consumed nuts frequently and by 37% in male
vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians. Cancers of the colon and
prostate were significantly more likely in nonvegetarians (RR of 1.88
and 1.54, respectively), and frequent beef consumers also had higher
risk of bladder cancer. Intake of legumes was negatively associated
with risk of colon cancer in nonvegetarians and risk of pancreatic
cancer. Higher consumption of all fruit or dried fruit was associated
with lower risks of lung, prostate, and pancreatic cancers.
Cross-sectional data suggest vegetarian Seventh-day Adventists have
lower risks of diabetes mellitus, hypertension, and arthritis than
nonvegetarians. Thus, among Seventh-day Adventists, vegetarians are
healthier than nonvegetarians but this cannot be ascribed only to the
absence of meat. - PMID: 10479227

&

'.. disease rates were significantly associated within a range of
dietary plant food composition that suggested an absence of a
disease prevention threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an
all-plant foods diet, the greater will be the reduction in the rates
of these diseases.'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html






D*@.
2006-05-07 14:57:54 EST
On Sun, 7 May 2006 16:35:08 +0100, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:

[...]
>'Most "nutritionists" assert that we have definite carnivorous leanings,
>and some have even termed our incisor teeth "fangs" in defense of
>their erroneous position that humans are natural meat-eaters!
_________________________________________________________
[...]
We might look toward the social aspects of chimpanzee societies to understand their hunting
patterns. One clue to the significance of meat in a chimpanzee society comes from the observation
that males do most of the hunting. During the past decade, adult and adolescent males made over 90
percent of the kills at Gombe. Although females occasionally hunt, they more often receive a share
of
meat from the male who captured the prey.

This state of affairs sets up an interesting dynamic between males and females. Sometimes a begging
female does not receive any meat until after the male copulates with her (even while clutching the
freshly killed carcass). Some other observations are also telling. Not only does the size of a
hunting
party increase in proportion to the number of estrous females present, but the presence of an
estrous
female independently increases the likelihood that there will be a hunt. Such observations suggest
that
male chimpanzees use meat as a tool to gain access to sexually receptive females. But females appear
to be getting reproductive benefits as well: William McGrew of Miami University in Ohio showed that
female chimpanzees at Gombe that receive generous shares of meat produce more offspring that
survive.

The distribution of the kill to other male chimpanzees also hints at another social role for meat.
The
Japanese primatologist Toshisada Nishida and his colleagues in the Mahale Mountains showed that
the alpha male Ntilogi distributes meat to his allies but consistently withholds it from his rivals.
Such
behavior, they suggest, reveals that meat can be used as a political tool in chimpanzee society.
Further studies should tell us whether such actions have consequences for alliances between males.
[...]
http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/articles/95articles/Stanford-full.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
_________________________________________________________
[...]
In the American Scientist article, Stanford describes witnessing the largest massacre
ever documented at Gombe. Two hunting parties with a total of 33 chimps - two of
them swollen females - converged on a group of 25 colobus monkeys. The male chimps
chased and shook the monkeys from trees, eventually killing seven. Before Stanford's
eyes, a large male chimp plucked a baby monkey from a branch and "dispatched it with
a bite to the skull." The chimp then approached a swollen female with the carcass,
dangling it just out of her reach until she presented her swelling. Only after copulation
did the male share his food.

"An important issue today in human male-female relationships is control," Stanford said.
"What we're seeing is the evolutionary roots of this kind of mutual attempt to manipulate
and control. Male chimps are using meat to control female behavior and female chimps
are making use of their reproductive system to get meat."
[...]
http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/news_service/chronicle_html/1995.02.06.html/chimp.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
_________________________________________________________
Homo sapiens: Earliest forms of our own species
- page 1 -

The surviving physical evidence, from skulls such as these, suggests that the
transition from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens, the earliest forms of our own
species, occurred approximately 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. At the same time,
more detail begins to be preserved in the fossil record, such as wooden tools
and weapons which give evidence of a hunting life-style.
[...]
http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/h-sapiens/h-sapiens-a.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Mark
2006-05-07 20:37:28 EST
Leif Erikson <pipes@thedismalscience.net> wrote in
news:1M36g.714$Ae1.30@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> 666 wrote:
>
>> I like my dogs grilled or saut\ufffded, reveals Danish prince
>> By Kate Connolly in Berlin
>> (Filed: 03/05/2006)
>>
>> Prince Henrik, the prince consort of Denmark, has shocked animal
>> lovers by declaring that dog meat - fried or grilled - is one of
>> his favourite dishes.
>
> I've often wondered what is the basis for the western
> aversion to eating most predator species. Apart from
> crackers in the south eating alligator on occasion,
> western civilization doesn't generally eat predators,
> e.g. wolves/dogs, bears, large cats, etc.


alligators are yummy...and so are rattlesnakes

for that matter, so are swordfish, and sharks, and tuna and various
other mackerel species, all of which qualify as predators

(and how about frogs...do they qualify as predators? I guess that
depends on how one considers various insect species, eh? ;^D)


--

Mark

Pearl
2006-05-08 04:39:03 EST
<*h@.> wrote in message news:qogs529pto2tvk7dfgnh3cbdkeie94hn1o@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 7 May 2006 16:35:08 +0100, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >'Most "nutritionists" assert that we have definite carnivorous leanings,
> >and some have even termed our incisor teeth "fangs" in defense of
> >their erroneous position that humans are natural meat-eaters!
> _________________________________________________________
> [...]
> We might look toward the social aspects of chimpanzee societies to understand their hunting
> patterns. One clue to the significance of meat in a chimpanzee society comes from the observation
> that males do most of the hunting. During the past decade, adult and adolescent males made over 90
> percent of the kills at Gombe. <..>

Gombe National Park is a limited area, and competition is high.

'..The park is made up of narrow mountain strip of land about
16 kilometers long and 5 kilometers wide on the shore of Lake
Tanganyika. From the lake shore steep slopes rises up to form the
Rift Valley's escapement, which is covered by the dense forest.
..
The dominating vegetation in this park include the open
deciduous woodland on the upper slopes, gallery forests on
the valleys and lower slopes. This type of vegetation is unique in
Tanzania and has been supporting a large number of Chimpanzee,
Baboons, and a large number of bird species. Other species seen
here are colobus, blue and red tail monkeys. ..'
http://www.utalii.com/gombe%20national%20park.htm

'Kortlandt states that predation by chimpanzees on vertebrates is
undoubtedly a rather rare phenomenon among rainforest-dwelling
populations of chimpanzees. Kortlandt lists the reasons given
below in his evidence.

# the absence (or virtual absence) of animal matter in the
digestive systems of hundreds of hunted, dissected or
otherwise investigated cases
# the rarity of parasites indicating carnivorous habits
# rarity of pertinent field observations
# the responses when he placed live as well as dead
potential prey animals along the chimpanzee paths at Beni
(in the poorer environments of the savanna landscape
however, predation on vertebrates appears to be much
more common)

Kortlandt concludes this section on primate diets by saying that
the wealth of flora and insect fauna in the rain-forest provides both
chimpanzees and orang-utans with a dietary spectrum that seems
wide enough to meet their nutritional requirements, without hunting
and killing of vertebrates being necessary. It is in the poorer
nutritional environments, where plant sources may be scarce or of
low quality where carnivorous behaviour arises. Even then he says
that the meat obtained are minimal and perhaps insufficient to meet
basic needs. Finally he adds "The same conclusion applies, of
course, to hominids . . . it is strange that most palaeoanthropologists
have never been willing to accept the elementary facts on this matter
that have emerged from both nutritional science and primate research."
..'
http://tinyurl.com/d8aqw

"Studies of frugivorous communities elsewhere suggest that dietary
divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce,
and that niche separation is clear only at such times (Gautier-Hion &
Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983). - Foraging profiles of sympatric
lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lop\ufffd Reserve, Gabon, p.179,
Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334, 159-295,
No. 1270

> Homo sapiens: Earliest forms of our own species
> - page 1 -
>
> The surviving physical evidence, from skulls such as these, suggests that the
> transition from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens, the earliest forms of our own
> species, occurred approximately 300,000 to 400,000 years ago. At the same time,
> more detail begins to be preserved in the fossil record, such as wooden tools
> and weapons which give evidence of a hunting life-style.
> [...]
> http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/h-sapiens/h-sapiens-a.html

'Ethnographic parallels with modern hunter-gatherer communities have
been taken to show that the colder the climate, the greater the reliance
on meat. There are sound biological and economic reasons for this, not
least in the ready availability of large amounts of fat in arctic mammals.
>From this, it has been deduced that the humans of the glacial periods
were primarily hunters, while plant foods were more important during
the interglacials. '
http://www.phancocks.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/naturalhistory/devensian.htm





Knut J Bjuland
2006-08-08 13:19:13 EST
Leif Erikson wrote:
> 666 wrote:
>
>> I like my dogs grilled or sautéed, reveals Danish prince
>> By Kate Connolly in Berlin
>> (Filed: 03/05/2006)
>>
>> Prince Henrik, the prince consort of Denmark, has shocked animal lovers
>> by declaring that dog meat - fried or grilled - is one of his favourite
>> dishes.
>
> I've often wondered what is the basis for the western aversion to eating
> most predator species. Apart from crackers in the south eating
> alligator on occasion, western civilization doesn't generally eat
> predators, e.g. wolves/dogs, bears, large cats, etc.
It is bassed on ecological reasons. It is better to eat herbivore than
carnivore because if you use carinovre you have to fist grow graise then
feed herbivore and then use the herbivore to feed carnivore. Thouse a
lot energy gets lost.

S*@yahoo.com
2006-08-08 15:46:42 EST

Knut J Bjuland wrote:
> Leif Erikson wrote:
> > 666 wrote:
> >
> >> I like my dogs grilled or sautéed, reveals Danish prince
> >> By Kate Connolly in Berlin
> >> (Filed: 03/05/2006)
> >>
> >> Prince Henrik, the prince consort of Denmark, has shocked animal lovers
> >> by declaring that dog meat - fried or grilled - is one of his favourite
> >> dishes.
> >
> > I've often wondered what is the basis for the western aversion to eating
> > most predator species. Apart from crackers in the south eating
> > alligator on occasion, western civilization doesn't generally eat
> > predators, e.g. wolves/dogs, bears, large cats, etc.
> It is bassed on ecological reasons. It is better to eat herbivore than
> carnivore because if you use carinovre you have to fist grow graise then
> feed herbivore and then use the herbivore to feed carnivore. Thouse a
> lot energy gets lost.

What about salmon and tuna?

Anyway vegetarian dogs probably still won't be popular in the US
anytime soon.


F*@hotmail.com
2006-08-08 15:56:46 EST
s*4@yahoo.com wrote:
> Knut J Bjuland wrote:
> > Leif Erikson wrote:
> > > 666 wrote:
> > >
> > >> I like my dogs grilled or sautéed, reveals Danish prince
> > >> By Kate Connolly in Berlin
> > >> (Filed: 03/05/2006)
> > >>
> > >> Prince Henrik, the prince consort of Denmark, has shocked animal lovers
> > >> by declaring that dog meat - fried or grilled - is one of his favourite
> > >> dishes.
> > >
> > > I've often wondered what is the basis for the western aversion to eating
> > > most predator species. Apart from crackers in the south eating
> > > alligator on occasion, western civilization doesn't generally eat
> > > predators, e.g. wolves/dogs, bears, large cats, etc.
> > It is bassed on ecological reasons. It is better to eat herbivore than
> > carnivore because if you use carinovre you have to fist grow graise then
> > feed herbivore and then use the herbivore to feed carnivore. Thouse a
> > lot energy gets lost.
>
> What about salmon and tuna?

Humans don't have to raise the fish that salmon and tuna
eat, so don't have to absorb the economic cost of eating
thsese predators. If you decided to subsist on a diet of
farm-raised roast lion, you'd have to raise a lot of wildebeasts
as well.

--
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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