Vegetarian Discussion: Another Interesting Calculation

Another Interesting Calculation
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Rupert
2013-04-25 00:43:03 EST
It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.

The average lifespan of a dairy cow is 2000 days and she will produce about 50,000 kg of milk during her lifetime. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese, means, overage, an extra six minutes of life experienced by dairy cows.

No doubt David Harrison can tell us whether this life is of "positive value" or "negative value".

George Plimpton
2013-04-25 01:24:39 EST
On 4/24/2013 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
> It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.

These conversion factor stories are meaningless. It often takes a lot
of various input factors to create one unit of desirable output. So
what? So fucking what? It takes a lot of labor hours to produce one
Rolls-Royce car; many times more than is required to produce one low-end
Kia or other cheap car. So what? There are people who want Rolls-Royce
and other expensive cars, and there is no moral case to be made that
they "ought" to be forced to buy Kias or some other cheap shitty make
instead.

People want relatively resource-intensive meat. As long as they can
afford it, there's no reason they shouldn't have it. As I demonstrated
long ago, what matters is economic efficiency, not physical efficiency.


Rupert
2013-04-25 01:39:11 EST
On Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:24:39 AM UTC+2, George Plimpton wrote:
> On 4/24/2013 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
>
>
> These conversion factor stories are meaningless. It often takes a lot
>
> of various input factors to create one unit of desirable output. So
>
> what? So fucking what? It takes a lot of labor hours to produce one
>
> Rolls-Royce car; many times more than is required to produce one low-end
>
> Kia or other cheap car. So what? There are people who want Rolls-Royce
>
> and other expensive cars, and there is no moral case to be made that
>
> they "ought" to be forced to buy Kias or some other cheap shitty make
>
> instead.
>
>
>
> People want relatively resource-intensive meat. As long as they can
>
> afford it, there's no reason they shouldn't have it. As I demonstrated
>
> long ago, what matters is economic efficiency, not physical efficiency.

I wasn't making any claim about what people "should" do at all. I was just giving an estimate for the impact that buying one 20-gram slice of cheese has on the total amount of life experienced by dairy cows, because I thought that some people might find it interesting.

D*@.
2013-04-25 18:14:24 EST
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
>The average lifespan of a dairy cow is 2000 days and she will produce about 50,000 kg of milk during her lifetime. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese, means, overage, an extra six minutes of life experienced by dairy cows.
>
>No doubt David Harrison can tell us whether this life is of "positive value" or "negative value".

I've told you plenty of times I believe that by far most dairy cattle have
lives of positive value, and ESPECIALLY those which are grain fed as well as
grass and hay fed. Even you have pretended that you thought some grass raised
cattle could possibly have lives of positive value. Do you now want to retract
that AGAIN? Or do you want to restrict it to only beef cattle or something like
that?

D*@.
2013-04-25 18:14:32 EST
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:24:39 AM UTC+2, Goowrote:
>> On 4/24/2013 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>> > It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>>
>>
>>
>> These conversion factor stories are meaningless. It often takes a lot
>>
>> of various input factors to create one unit of desirable output. So
>>
>> what? So fucking what? It takes a lot of labor hours to produce one
>>
>> Rolls-Royce car; many times more than is required to produce one low-end
>>
>> Kia or other cheap car. So what? There are people who want Rolls-Royce
>>
>> and other expensive cars, and there is no moral case to be made that
>>
>> they "ought" to be forced to buy Kias or some other cheap shitty make
>>
>> instead.
>>
>>
>>
>> People want relatively resource-intensive meat. As long as they can
>>
>> afford it, there's no reason they shouldn't have it. As I demonstrated
>>
>> long ago, what matters is economic efficiency, not physical efficiency.
>
>I wasn't making any claim about what people "should" do at all. I was just giving an estimate for the impact that buying one 20-gram slice of cheese has on the total amount of life experienced by dairy cows, because I thought that some people might find it interesting.

I might find it interesting if you'd do it for cage free eggs. And also what
sort of influence it could have on caged egg production. Remember that the ONLY
reason for buying cage free eggs is to contribute to better lives for laying
hens and it doesn't do the consumer any good at all. Quite the opposite in fact
because the eggs are smaller, the shells are more likely to crumble and the
membrane thicker making them harder to open without breaking the yolk, plus they
cost significantly more. But I buy them and cussed a few earlier today. If you
bought them you would be doing something instead of nothing as I pointed out to
you in the past countless times, even if you don't eat them but instead give
them to someone who buys cage raised eggs, or to someone to feed their pets, or
just throw them in the trash... That would be better than nothing, but if you
could eliminate a caged egg purchase or more that would be doing twice as much
or more. Do you think that would be more than twice as much as doing nothing? Or
only twice as much as doing nothing?

Rupert
2013-04-25 21:25:10 EST
On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:14:32 AM UTC+2, d...@. wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:24:39 AM UTC+2, Goowrote:
>
> >> On 4/24/2013 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> > It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> These conversion factor stories are meaningless. It often takes a lot
>
> >>
>
> >> of various input factors to create one unit of desirable output. So
>
> >>
>
> >> what? So fucking what? It takes a lot of labor hours to produce one
>
> >>
>
> >> Rolls-Royce car; many times more than is required to produce one low-end
>
> >>
>
> >> Kia or other cheap car. So what? There are people who want Rolls-Royce
>
> >>
>
> >> and other expensive cars, and there is no moral case to be made that
>
> >>
>
> >> they "ought" to be forced to buy Kias or some other cheap shitty make
>
> >>
>
> >> instead.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> People want relatively resource-intensive meat. As long as they can
>
> >>
>
> >> afford it, there's no reason they shouldn't have it. As I demonstrated
>
> >>
>
> >> long ago, what matters is economic efficiency, not physical efficiency.
>
> >
>
> >I wasn't making any claim about what people "should" do at all. I was just giving an estimate for the impact that buying one 20-gram slice of cheese has on the total amount of life experienced by dairy cows, because I thought that some people might find it interesting.
>
>
>
> I might find it interesting if you'd do it for cage free eggs. And also what
>
> sort of influence it could have on caged egg production. Remember that the ONLY
>
> reason for buying cage free eggs is to contribute to better lives for laying
>
> hens and it doesn't do the consumer any good at all. Quite the opposite in fact
>
> because the eggs are smaller, the shells are more likely to crumble and the
>
> membrane thicker making them harder to open without breaking the yolk, plus they
>
> cost significantly more. But I buy them and cussed a few earlier today. If you
>
> bought them you would be doing something instead of nothing as I pointed out to
>
> you in the past countless times, even if you don't eat them but instead give
>
> them to someone who buys cage raised eggs, or to someone to feed their pets, or
>
> just throw them in the trash... That would be better than nothing, but if you
>
> could eliminate a caged egg purchase or more that would be doing twice as much
>
> or more. Do you think that would be more than twice as much as doing nothing? Or
>
> only twice as much as doing nothing?

Buying a dozen eggs contributes about 21 days of life for laying hens.

Refraining from buying battery cage eggs and donating money to organizations that encourage other people to do the same is not doing nothing. Even if I thought that some laying hens had lives that are worth living, buying their eggs would not necessarily be the most efficient way by means of which I could increase the number of years of life worth living that are lived. And there may be other more important goals that I could pursue with my limited resources, like reducing suffering.

Rupert
2013-04-25 21:26:18 EST
On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:14:24 AM UTC+2, d...@. wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
> >
>
> >The average lifespan of a dairy cow is 2000 days and she will produce about 50,000 kg of milk during her lifetime. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese, means, overage, an extra six minutes of life experienced by dairy cows.
>
> >
>
> >No doubt David Harrison can tell us whether this life is of "positive value" or "negative value".
>
>
>
> I've told you plenty of times I believe that by far most dairy cattle have
>
> lives of positive value, and ESPECIALLY those which are grain fed as well as
>
> grass and hay fed. Even you have pretended that you thought some grass raised
>
> cattle could possibly have lives of positive value. Do you now want to retract
>
> that AGAIN? Or do you want to restrict it to only beef cattle or something like
>
> that?

There would be some dairy cattle who have lives that are worth living, but I doubt that that would be the usual situation in the European Union.

George Plimpton
2013-04-25 21:51:15 EST
On 4/25/2013 6:26 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:14:24 AM UTC+2, d...@. wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The average lifespan of a dairy cow is 2000 days and she will produce about 50,000 kg of milk during her lifetime. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese, means, overage, an extra six minutes of life experienced by dairy cows.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> No doubt David Harrison can tell us whether this life is of "positive value" or "negative value".
>>
>>
>>
>> I've told you plenty of times I believe that by far most dairy cattle have
>>
>> lives of positive value, and ESPECIALLY those which are grain fed as well as
>>
>> grass and hay fed. Even you have pretended that you thought some grass raised
>>
>> cattle could possibly have lives of positive value. Do you now want to retract
>>
>> that AGAIN? Or do you want to restrict it to only beef cattle or something like
>>
>> that?
>
> There would be some dairy cattle who have lives that are worth living, but I doubt that that would be the usual situation in the European Union.

What do you think makes the lives of most dairy cows in the European
Union not worth living?


Rupert
2013-04-25 22:05:13 EST
On Friday, April 26, 2013 3:51:15 AM UTC+2, George Plimpton wrote:
> On 4/25/2013 6:26 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:14:24 AM UTC+2, d...@. wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
>
> >>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> The average lifespan of a dairy cow is 2000 days and she will produce about 50,000 kg of milk during her lifetime. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese, means, overage, an extra six minutes of life experienced by dairy cows.
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> No doubt David Harrison can tell us whether this life is of "positive value" or "negative value".
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> I've told you plenty of times I believe that by far most dairy cattle have
>
> >>
>
> >> lives of positive value, and ESPECIALLY those which are grain fed as well as
>
> >>
>
> >> grass and hay fed. Even you have pretended that you thought some grass raised
>
> >>
>
> >> cattle could possibly have lives of positive value. Do you now want to retract
>
> >>
>
> >> that AGAIN? Or do you want to restrict it to only beef cattle or something like
>
> >>
>
> >> that?
>
> >
>
> > There would be some dairy cattle who have lives that are worth living, but I doubt that that would be the usual situation in the European Union.
>
>
>
> What do you think makes the lives of most dairy cows in the European
>
> Union not worth living?

There are some relevant considerations here:

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/cows/dairy_cows/welfare_issues.aspx

Rupert
2013-04-26 02:34:31 EST
On Friday, April 26, 2013 3:25:10 AM UTC+2, Rupert wrote:
> On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:14:32 AM UTC+2, d...@. wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
>
> >
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >On Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:24:39 AM UTC+2, Goowrote:
>
> >
>
> > >> On 4/24/2013 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> > It takes 10 kg of milk to produce 1 kg of cheese. The cumulative elasticity factor for milk products is 0.45. So buying one 20-gram slice of cheese will lead to an expected increase of 90 grams in the total amount of milk produced.
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> These conversion factor stories are meaningless. It often takes a lot
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> of various input factors to create one unit of desirable output. So
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> what? So fucking what? It takes a lot of labor hours to produce one
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> Rolls-Royce car; many times more than is required to produce one low-end
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> Kia or other cheap car. So what? There are people who want Rolls-Royce
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> and other expensive cars, and there is no moral case to be made that
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> they "ought" to be forced to buy Kias or some other cheap shitty make
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> instead.
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> People want relatively resource-intensive meat. As long as they can
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> afford it, there's no reason they shouldn't have it. As I demonstrated
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> long ago, what matters is economic efficiency, not physical efficiency.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >I wasn't making any claim about what people "should" do at all. I was just giving an estimate for the impact that buying one 20-gram slice of cheese has on the total amount of life experienced by dairy cows, because I thought that some people might find it interesting.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I might find it interesting if you'd do it for cage free eggs. And also what
>
> >
>
> > sort of influence it could have on caged egg production. Remember that the ONLY
>
> >
>
> > reason for buying cage free eggs is to contribute to better lives for laying
>
> >
>
> > hens and it doesn't do the consumer any good at all. Quite the opposite in fact
>
> >
>
> > because the eggs are smaller, the shells are more likely to crumble and the
>
> >
>
> > membrane thicker making them harder to open without breaking the yolk, plus they
>
> >
>
> > cost significantly more. But I buy them and cussed a few earlier today. If you
>
> >
>
> > bought them you would be doing something instead of nothing as I pointed out to
>
> >
>
> > you in the past countless times, even if you don't eat them but instead give
>
> >
>
> > them to someone who buys cage raised eggs, or to someone to feed their pets, or
>
> >
>
> > just throw them in the trash... That would be better than nothing, but if you
>
> >
>
> > could eliminate a caged egg purchase or more that would be doing twice as much
>
> >
>
> > or more. Do you think that would be more than twice as much as doing nothing? Or
>
> >
>
> > only twice as much as doing nothing?
>
>
>
> Buying a dozen eggs contributes about 21 days of life for laying hens.
>

This doesn't sound right.

I used a cumulative elasticity factor of 0.91, I assumed that an egg weighs 70 grams, and I used the estimate that a laying hen lives one year and produces 15.3 kg of eggs. If this were right then only 220 of its 365 days would be laying days. Could be right, I guess.
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