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And/or Www.mantra.com/jai Dr. Jai Maharaj
2011-06-17 13:27:32 EST
Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist

Hinduism Today Magazine
Web Edition
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
March 1991

"I want to apologize for participating in helping to brainwash North
America's young people into doing something that I know now to be
contrary to the purpose of life." For almost four years, starting in
1978, Geoffrey Giuliano played Ronald McDonald for McDonald's of
Canada and the Marvellous Magical Burger king in the Northeastern
United States. Both are performing clowns whose purpose is to enhance
the image of the two largest worldwide fast-food (hamburger)
restaurant franchises. He made appearances for Burger King in
medieval attire, singing, dancing and doing magic tricks. As Ronald,
he made commercials and personal appearances and opened new
McDonald's restaurants, presenting the "Ronald McDonald Safely Show"
for kids.

Ten years later, he was watching TV when he saw an anti-smoking ad
starring the man who played the rough and tough, macho Marlboro Man.
This actor, having sold cigarettes all his life, was diagnosed with
emphysema, a severe lung disease caused primarily by cigarette
smoking. The similarity in their two situations inspired Giuliano to
create a non-profit show starring himself as "an antimaterial, kind
of a spiritual Ronald McDonald" who would teach kids vegetarian,
nonviolent values and morals while entertaining them with magic,
music and fun.

Born in Rochester, New York in 1953, Giuliano did bit parts in movies
and commercials as a child. He became a member of Equity and played
many roles through the years -- a courtier in the Elizabethan Court
(at Studio Arena), Mr. Goldstone in "Gypsy" (at a dinner theater in
St. Petersbury, Florida) even Buddha (in London) where he appeared in
"Siddharta" with Who guitarist Peter Townsend. In 1978, he graduated
from New York State University with a masters degree in acting, a
wife and two kids, huge student loans to pay back, and a desperate
need for a job. Despite his credentials, the only audition he could
get was for the Marvellous Magical Burger King.

"It was the only opportunity that presented itself to me. My beliefs
were mine. If the whole rest of the world wants to kill a cow and eat
it, then let them do it as long as I don't participate. That's how I
justified it."

After a successful stint as the Burger king, he was hired over 600
other clowns to represent McDonald's of Canada. He enjoyed a $50,000
yearly salary, a chauffer-driven limousine, a private chef, a
penthouse office with a personal secretary. People asked for his
autograph. After two years of this, he quit.

"I was doing a safety show for kids, when I found a memo that said
'The purpose of the Ronald McDonald Safely Show is to increase the
awareness of McDonald's goods, services and products.' I thought to
myself, 'Wait a minute pal, I thought the purpose was to help
children.' That was the end of it. I let it go."

Geoffrey Giuliano loves children. He can make them smile. Ronald
McDonald made regular visits to the terminally ill children at the
Children's Hospital in Toronto. On one visit, a nurse said, "Oh don't
go in there. He's too far gone.' And I said, 'Well, if he's so far
gone and deep in a coma, what can it hurt?' So I went in and I
tweaked his nose and I did a little magic trick and I whispered in
his ear and I grabbed his hand, and I swear to God, he came out of
his coma, and he smiled. It was unbelievable."

"I would do shows. All the shows were free. And there were kids there
that never got to see any shows. They'd run up to me and they'd cry
and they'd laugh...the children were wonderful. That's what kept me
going. I knew the company [had ulterior motives], but I felt I was
doing something good."

New Life Begins

Giuliano met his guru in 1980 at a Hare Krishna temple in Toronto, in
the middle of his McDonald's career. Deeply impressed with the purity
and devotion of "this little Indian sannyasin," he took initiation
and was accepted as a disciple by His Divine Grace B.H. Mangalniloy
Maharaj of the Sri Chaitaniya Gaudiya Math, who gave him the name
Sriman Jagannatha Dasa Adikari. His wife, Vrinda Rani, also took
initiation. Together, they are raising their four children as
vegetarian Hindus.

Geoffrey Giuliano today is the author of several successful books
about contemporary music personalities. "I live in a great big
mansion that I bought with the proceeds from one of my books on
George Harrison. I have a real, separate temple building which was
designed and built as a temple, with installed Jagannath. Lord
Chaitaniya, and Gopal Krishna deities -- quite large. Also, I have
beautiful Lord Ganesh camphor lamps that are about two feet high on
either side of my altar. I'm very orthodox. The only books I read are
religious Indian texts. I feel that more than living in my house, I'm
a temple president presiding over a country ashram."

Secure in his own life, Giuliano feels the time is ripe to fulfill
his guru-given mission and teach the vegetarian way of life that has
given him energy, stamina and perfect health. He wants to create a
new show and tour the school system, using the expensive training he
received from Burger King and McDonald's to sell vegetarianism
instead of meat.

"There is nothing to counteract the millions of dollars that
McDonald's spends on the 'Ronald McDonald Appearance Program' --
brainwashing the youth of the world to eat meat. I want [my show] to
be as big-time show business as possible, for the right reasons this
time. I'm willing to come right out in the open and say, 'I'm a
converted white Hindu. I feel that people should be as nonviolent as
possible. And I feel that eating meat is unhealthy, unnecessary and
very, very wrong.' I want to purify myself and quit this world,
forever. And if I can help somebody else, that's the only reason I'm
doing this Ronald McDonald business."

"I very sincerely would like to apologize to all HINDUISM TODAY
readers and to all of the vegetarian parents who may be having a
tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet because of some of my
actions." He saw it as a way to take care of his family and to make
children happy. "Overall, I'm sorry that I did it and now I have to
make amends by speaking out against what I did."

On the other side of the dinner table: "My wish for all the meat-
eaters is that they will grow to understand that they can live
healthier, happier, holier lives by not participating in the
senseless slaughter of innocent animals and that they're giving up a
whole world of wonderful food for something which is dead and can
only fill them with sorrow and disease ultimately."

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=804

More at:

Hinduism Today
http://www.hinduismtoday.com

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.

Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.

And/or Www.mantra.com/jai Dr. Jai Maharaj
2011-06-17 15:48:02 EST
Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist

Hinduism Today Magazine
Web Edition
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
March 1991

"I want to apologize for participating in helping to brainwash North
America's young people into doing something that I know now to be
contrary to the purpose of life." For almost four years, starting in
1978, Geoffrey Giuliano played Ronald McDonald for McDonald's of
Canada and the Marvellous Magical Burger king in the Northeastern
United States. Both are performing clowns whose purpose is to enhance
the image of the two largest worldwide fast-food (hamburger)
restaurant franchises. He made appearances for Burger King in
medieval attire, singing, dancing and doing magic tricks. As Ronald,
he made commercials and personal appearances and opened new
McDonald's restaurants, presenting the "Ronald McDonald Safely Show"
for kids.

Ten years later, he was watching TV when he saw an anti-smoking ad
starring the man who played the rough and tough, macho Marlboro Man.
This actor, having sold cigarettes all his life, was diagnosed with
emphysema, a severe lung disease caused primarily by cigarette
smoking. The similarity in their two situations inspired Giuliano to
create a non-profit show starring himself as "an antimaterial, kind
of a spiritual Ronald McDonald" who would teach kids vegetarian,
nonviolent values and morals while entertaining them with magic,
music and fun.

Born in Rochester, New York in 1953, Giuliano did bit parts in movies
and commercials as a child. He became a member of Equity and played
many roles through the years -- a courtier in the Elizabethan Court
(at Studio Arena), Mr. Goldstone in "Gypsy" (at a dinner theater in
St. Petersbury, Florida) even Buddha (in London) where he appeared in
"Siddharta" with Who guitarist Peter Townsend. In 1978, he graduated
from New York State University with a masters degree in acting, a
wife and two kids, huge student loans to pay back, and a desperate
need for a job. Despite his credentials, the only audition he could
get was for the Marvellous Magical Burger King.

"It was the only opportunity that presented itself to me. My beliefs
were mine. If the whole rest of the world wants to kill a cow and eat
it, then let them do it as long as I don't participate. That's how I
justified it."

After a successful stint as the Burger king, he was hired over 600
other clowns to represent McDonald's of Canada. He enjoyed a $50,000
yearly salary, a chauffer-driven limousine, a private chef, a
penthouse office with a personal secretary. People asked for his
autograph. After two years of this, he quit.

"I was doing a safety show for kids, when I found a memo that said
'The purpose of the Ronald McDonald Safely Show is to increase the
awareness of McDonald's goods, services and products.' I thought to
myself, 'Wait a minute pal, I thought the purpose was to help
children.' That was the end of it. I let it go."

Geoffrey Giuliano loves children. He can make them smile. Ronald
McDonald made regular visits to the terminally ill children at the
Children's Hospital in Toronto. On one visit, a nurse said, "Oh don't
go in there. He's too far gone.' And I said, 'Well, if he's so far
gone and deep in a coma, what can it hurt?' So I went in and I
tweaked his nose and I did a little magic trick and I whispered in
his ear and I grabbed his hand, and I swear to God, he came out of
his coma, and he smiled. It was unbelievable."

"I would do shows. All the shows were free. And there were kids there
that never got to see any shows. They'd run up to me and they'd cry
and they'd laugh...the children were wonderful. That's what kept me
going. I knew the company [had ulterior motives], but I felt I was
doing something good."

New Life Begins

Giuliano met his guru in 1980 at a Hare Krishna temple in Toronto, in
the middle of his McDonald's career. Deeply impressed with the purity
and devotion of "this little Indian sannyasin," he took initiation
and was accepted as a disciple by His Divine Grace B.H. Mangalniloy
Maharaj of the Sri Chaitaniya Gaudiya Math, who gave him the name
Sriman Jagannatha Dasa Adikari. His wife, Vrinda Rani, also took
initiation. Together, they are raising their four children as
vegetarian Hindus.

Geoffrey Giuliano today is the author of several successful books
about contemporary music personalities. "I live in a great big
mansion that I bought with the proceeds from one of my books on
George Harrison. I have a real, separate temple building which was
designed and built as a temple, with installed Jagannath. Lord
Chaitaniya, and Gopal Krishna deities -- quite large. Also, I have
beautiful Lord Ganesh camphor lamps that are about two feet high on
either side of my altar. I'm very orthodox. The only books I read are
religious Indian texts. I feel that more than living in my house, I'm
a temple president presiding over a country ashram."

Secure in his own life, Giuliano feels the time is ripe to fulfill
his guru-given mission and teach the vegetarian way of life that has
given him energy, stamina and perfect health. He wants to create a
new show and tour the school system, using the expensive training he
received from Burger King and McDonald's to sell vegetarianism
instead of meat.

"There is nothing to counteract the millions of dollars that
McDonald's spends on the 'Ronald McDonald Appearance Program' --
brainwashing the youth of the world to eat meat. I want [my show] to
be as big-time show business as possible, for the right reasons this
time. I'm willing to come right out in the open and say, 'I'm a
converted white Hindu. I feel that people should be as nonviolent as
possible. And I feel that eating meat is unhealthy, unnecessary and
very, very wrong.' I want to purify myself and quit this world,
forever. And if I can help somebody else, that's the only reason I'm
doing this Ronald McDonald business."

"I very sincerely would like to apologize to all HINDUISM TODAY
readers and to all of the vegetarian parents who may be having a
tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet because of some of my
actions." He saw it as a way to take care of his family and to make
children happy. "Overall, I'm sorry that I did it and now I have to
make amends by speaking out against what I did."

On the other side of the dinner table: "My wish for all the meat-
eaters is that they will grow to understand that they can live
healthier, happier, holier lives by not participating in the
senseless slaughter of innocent animals and that they're giving up a
whole world of wonderful food for something which is dead and can
only fill them with sorrow and disease ultimately."

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=804

More at:

Hinduism Today
http://www.hinduismtoday.com

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.

Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.

D*@.
2011-06-20 23:26:21 EST
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, usenet@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai
(Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:

>Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>
>Hinduism Today Magazine
. . .
>having a
>tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
>the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
in order to be successful:

tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

And/or Www.mantra.com/jai Dr. Jai Maharaj
2011-06-21 00:07:14 EST
Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist

Hinduism Today Magazine
Web Edition
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
March 1991

"I want to apologize for participating in helping to brainwash North
America's young people into doing something that I know now to be
contrary to the purpose of life." For almost four years, starting in
1978, Geoffrey Giuliano played Ronald McDonald for McDonald's of
Canada and the Marvellous Magical Burger king in the Northeastern
United States. Both are performing clowns whose purpose is to enhance
the image of the two largest worldwide fast-food (hamburger)
restaurant franchises. He made appearances for Burger King in
medieval attire, singing, dancing and doing magic tricks. As Ronald,
he made commercials and personal appearances and opened new
McDonald's restaurants, presenting the "Ronald McDonald Safely Show"
for kids.

Ten years later, he was watching TV when he saw an anti-smoking ad
starring the man who played the rough and tough, macho Marlboro Man.
This actor, having sold cigarettes all his life, was diagnosed with
emphysema, a severe lung disease caused primarily by cigarette
smoking. The similarity in their two situations inspired Giuliano to
create a non-profit show starring himself as "an antimaterial, kind
of a spiritual Ronald McDonald" who would teach kids vegetarian,
nonviolent values and morals while entertaining them with magic,
music and fun.

Born in Rochester, New York in 1953, Giuliano did bit parts in movies
and commercials as a child. He became a member of Equity and played
many roles through the years -- a courtier in the Elizabethan Court
(at Studio Arena), Mr. Goldstone in "Gypsy" (at a dinner theater in
St. Petersbury, Florida) even Buddha (in London) where he appeared in
"Siddharta" with Who guitarist Peter Townsend. In 1978, he graduated
from New York State University with a masters degree in acting, a
wife and two kids, huge student loans to pay back, and a desperate
need for a job. Despite his credentials, the only audition he could
get was for the Marvellous Magical Burger King.

"It was the only opportunity that presented itself to me. My beliefs
were mine. If the whole rest of the world wants to kill a cow and eat
it, then let them do it as long as I don't participate. That's how I
justified it."

After a successful stint as the Burger king, he was hired over 600
other clowns to represent McDonald's of Canada. He enjoyed a $50,000
yearly salary, a chauffer-driven limousine, a private chef, a
penthouse office with a personal secretary. People asked for his
autograph. After two years of this, he quit.

"I was doing a safety show for kids, when I found a memo that said
'The purpose of the Ronald McDonald Safely Show is to increase the
awareness of McDonald's goods, services and products.' I thought to
myself, 'Wait a minute pal, I thought the purpose was to help
children.' That was the end of it. I let it go."

Geoffrey Giuliano loves children. He can make them smile. Ronald
McDonald made regular visits to the terminally ill children at the
Children's Hospital in Toronto. On one visit, a nurse said, "Oh don't
go in there. He's too far gone.' And I said, 'Well, if he's so far
gone and deep in a coma, what can it hurt?' So I went in and I
tweaked his nose and I did a little magic trick and I whispered in
his ear and I grabbed his hand, and I swear to God, he came out of
his coma, and he smiled. It was unbelievable."

"I would do shows. All the shows were free. And there were kids there
that never got to see any shows. They'd run up to me and they'd cry
and they'd laugh...the children were wonderful. That's what kept me
going. I knew the company [had ulterior motives], but I felt I was
doing something good."

New Life Begins

Giuliano met his guru in 1980 at a Hare Krishna temple in Toronto, in
the middle of his McDonald's career. Deeply impressed with the purity
and devotion of "this little Indian sannyasin," he took initiation
and was accepted as a disciple by His Divine Grace B.H. Mangalniloy
Maharaj of the Sri Chaitaniya Gaudiya Math, who gave him the name
Sriman Jagannatha Dasa Adikari. His wife, Vrinda Rani, also took
initiation. Together, they are raising their four children as
vegetarian Hindus.

Geoffrey Giuliano today is the author of several successful books
about contemporary music personalities. "I live in a great big
mansion that I bought with the proceeds from one of my books on
George Harrison. I have a real, separate temple building which was
designed and built as a temple, with installed Jagannath. Lord
Chaitaniya, and Gopal Krishna deities -- quite large. Also, I have
beautiful Lord Ganesh camphor lamps that are about two feet high on
either side of my altar. I'm very orthodox. The only books I read are
religious Indian texts. I feel that more than living in my house, I'm
a temple president presiding over a country ashram."

Secure in his own life, Giuliano feels the time is ripe to fulfill
his guru-given mission and teach the vegetarian way of life that has
given him energy, stamina and perfect health. He wants to create a
new show and tour the school system, using the expensive training he
received from Burger King and McDonald's to sell vegetarianism
instead of meat.

"There is nothing to counteract the millions of dollars that
McDonald's spends on the 'Ronald McDonald Appearance Program' --
brainwashing the youth of the world to eat meat. I want [my show] to
be as big-time show business as possible, for the right reasons this
time. I'm willing to come right out in the open and say, 'I'm a
converted white Hindu. I feel that people should be as nonviolent as
possible. And I feel that eating meat is unhealthy, unnecessary and
very, very wrong.' I want to purify myself and quit this world,
forever. And if I can help somebody else, that's the only reason I'm
doing this Ronald McDonald business."

"I very sincerely would like to apologize to all HINDUISM TODAY
readers and to all of the vegetarian parents who may be having a
tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet because of some of my
actions." He saw it as a way to take care of his family and to make
children happy. "Overall, I'm sorry that I did it and now I have to
make amends by speaking out against what I did."

On the other side of the dinner table: "My wish for all the meat-
eaters is that they will grow to understand that they can live
healthier, happier, holier lives by not participating in the
senseless slaughter of innocent animals and that they're giving up a
whole world of wonderful food for something which is dead and can
only fill them with sorrow and disease ultimately."

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=804

More at:

Hinduism Today
http://www.hinduismtoday.com

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.

Since newsgroup posts are being removed
by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
this post may be reposted several times.

Rupert
2011-06-21 01:57:00 EST
On Jun 21, 1:26 pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai
>
>
>
> (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> >Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>
> >Hinduism Today Magazine
> . . .
> >having a
> >tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
> >the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet
>
>   · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> in order to be successful:
>
> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>
>     The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> being vegan.
>     From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

I type "grass raised beef Sydney" into Google and found this.

http://www.greenhillorganicmeat.com.au/farm/certified-organic-beef.html

So, you would have me believe that the production of this beef causes
less deaths per serving than tofu? Is that the story?

D*@.
2011-06-21 17:02:08 EST
· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
in order to be successful:

tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

D*@.
2011-06-21 17:03:35 EST
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:57:00 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 21, 1:26 pm, dh@. wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai
>>
>>
>>
>> (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
>> >Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>>
>> >Hinduism Today Magazine
>> . . .
>> >having a
>> >tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
>> >the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet
>>
>>   · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>> in order to be successful:
>>
>> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
>> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
>> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
>> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
>> gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
>> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
>> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>>
>>     The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>> being vegan.
>>     From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>
>I type "grass raised beef Sydney" into Google and found this.
>
>http://www.greenhillorganicmeat.com.au/farm/certified-organic-beef.html
>
>So, you would have me believe that the production of this beef causes
>less deaths per serving than tofu? Is that the story?

That's it. I've already told you countless times why, and why grass raised
dairy is better than soy and especially rice milk. Since I've told you so many
times, instead of taking the time to tell you again I emailed a rep for the farm
and told her what I've been pointing out to you asking if she would confirm and
maybe add to it. If she does I'll pass it on to you and maybe you'll believe it
if someone like that lets you know. Of course she might tell me I'm wrong too,
and if so I'll pass it on anyway and also let you know if I believe it or not.

Rupert
2011-06-21 20:08:01 EST
On Jun 22, 7:03 am, dh@. wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:57:00 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jun 21, 1:26 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai
>
> >> (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> >> >Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>
> >> >Hinduism Today Magazine
> >> . . .
> >> >having a
> >> >tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
> >> >the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet
>
> >>   · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> >> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> >> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> >> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> >> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> >> in order to be successful:
>
> >> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> >> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> >> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> >> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> >> gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> >> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> >> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>
> >>     The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> >> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> >> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> >> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> >> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> >> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> >> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> >> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> >> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> >> being vegan.
> >>     From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
> >> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
> >> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>
> >I type "grass raised beef Sydney" into Google and found this.
>
> >http://www.greenhillorganicmeat.com.au/farm/certified-organic-beef.html
>
> >So, you would have me believe that the production of this beef causes
> >less deaths per serving than tofu? Is that the story?
>
>     That's it. I've already told you countless times why, and why grass raised
> dairy is better than soy and especially rice milk. Since I've told you so many
> times, instead of taking the time to tell you again I emailed a rep for the farm
> and told her what I've been pointing out to you asking if she would confirm and
> maybe add to it. If she does I'll pass it on to you and maybe you'll believe it
> if someone like that lets you know. Of course she might tell me I'm wrong too,
> and if so I'll pass it on anyway and also let you know if I believe it or not.

My mind has always been open on the question. I have just thought that
it was reasonable to ask you to defend your view in more detail. For
example, you seem to claim that there are no collateral deaths at all
associated with the production of grass fed beef and some sources of
information seem to suggest that that is not true; predators are
killed to protect the cattle. I will be interested to hear what the
farm representaive says; in the meantime I am trying to do my own
research about the matter.

Rupert
2011-06-21 21:40:34 EST
On Jun 22, 7:03 am, dh@. wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:57:00 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jun 21, 1:26 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai
>
> >> (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> >> >Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>
> >> >Hinduism Today Magazine
> >> . . .
> >> >having a
> >> >tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
> >> >the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet
>
> >>   · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> >> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> >> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> >> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> >> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> >> in order to be successful:
>
> >> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> >> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> >> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> >> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> >> gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> >> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> >> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>
> >>     The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> >> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> >> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> >> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> >> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> >> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> >> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> >> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> >> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> >> being vegan.
> >>     From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
> >> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
> >> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>
> >I type "grass raised beef Sydney" into Google and found this.
>
> >http://www.greenhillorganicmeat.com.au/farm/certified-organic-beef.html
>
> >So, you would have me believe that the production of this beef causes
> >less deaths per serving than tofu? Is that the story?
>
>     That's it. I've already told you countless times why, and why grass raised
> dairy is better than soy and especially rice milk. Since I've told you so many
> times, instead of taking the time to tell you again I emailed a rep for the farm
> and told her what I've been pointing out to you asking if she would confirm and
> maybe add to it. If she does I'll pass it on to you and maybe you'll believe it
> if someone like that lets you know. Of course she might tell me I'm wrong too,
> and if so I'll pass it on anyway and also let you know if I believe it or not.

What would be your take on Matheny's article?

http://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/matheny.html

Do you think it is relevant to this issue?

D*@.
2011-06-23 18:10:22 EST
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:08:01 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 22, 7:03 am, dh@. wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:57:00 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jun 21, 1:26 pm, dh@. wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:27:32 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai
>>
>> >> (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
>> >> >Former Ronald McDonald Turns Vegetarian Activist
>>
>> >> >Hinduism Today Magazine
>> >> . . .
>> >> >having a
>> >> >tougher time now making their children understand the necessity and
>> >> >the urgency of a nonviolent, vegetarian diet
>>
>> >>   · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>> >> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>> >> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>> >> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>> >> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>> >> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>> >> in order to be successful:
>>
>> >> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
>> >> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
>> >> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
>> >> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
>> >> gelatin capsules,  adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
>> >> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
>> >> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>>
>> >>     The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>> >> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>> >> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>> >> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>> >> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>> >> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>> >> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>> >> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>> >> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>> >> being vegan.
>> >>     From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>> >> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>> >> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>> >> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>> >> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>> >> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>> >> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>> >> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>> >> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>> >> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>> >> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>>
>> >I type "grass raised beef Sydney" into Google and found this.
>>
>> >http://www.greenhillorganicmeat.com.au/farm/certified-organic-beef.html
>>
>> >So, you would have me believe that the production of this beef causes
>> >less deaths per serving than tofu? Is that the story?
>>
>>     That's it. I've already told you countless times why, and why grass raised
>> dairy is better than soy and especially rice milk. Since I've told you so many
>> times, instead of taking the time to tell you again I emailed a rep for the farm
>> and told her what I've been pointing out to you asking if she would confirm and
>> maybe add to it. If she does I'll pass it on to you and maybe you'll believe it
>> if someone like that lets you know. Of course she might tell me I'm wrong too,
>> and if so I'll pass it on anyway and also let you know if I believe it or not.
>
>My mind has always been open on the question.

Well, not really. It's a guarantee that SOME grass raised beef involves
fewer deaths than soy products, no doubt about that. I believe the vast majority
of it does. The only thing that would get the numbers down in soy bean fields,
is if there are very very few animals living in them to begin with...there
populations having been greatly reduced or killed off in previous years.

>I have just thought that
>it was reasonable to ask you to defend your view in more detail.

Farm machinery and the steps associated with soy farming produce more deaths
than cattle do by eating grass.

>For
>example, you seem to claim that there are no collateral deaths at all
>associated with the production of grass fed beef

No.

>and some sources of
>information seem to suggest that that is not true; predators are
>killed to protect the cattle.

It's good to kill predators that kill cattle. The animals killed to protect
soy beans are not generally predators, btw.

>I will be interested to hear what the
>farm representaive says; in the meantime I am trying to do my own
>research about the matter.

It seems to me she avoided my specific question, saying it's not the point.
It IS the point in my email to her and I let her know that. If she writes
anything worthwhile back I'll let you know. Here's part of what she did write:

"It is difficult to say eating only tofu would result in less animal deaths
because the animals would never have lived and therefore could not die. As you
point out, we believe our cattle have a happy, contented life while they are
alive. The more natural a system is, the more likely it is to be "wildllife"
friendly. Monocultures of any crop are anything but natural.To argue less
wildlife is killed, is a moot point I feel. yes, cropping is less tolerant of
wildlife (I assume you mean grazing wildlife) but to my mind, breaking the
argument down to deaths per mouthful is missing the point. If you believe that
animals should not be killed for human consumption, then surely one death is too
many. But again the point that the animal would never have lived is valid. I do
wonder what the animal activists that are against eating animals think a world
would look like it no one raised any animals at all for human consumption.

However, I am prepared to argue very strongly against those who say we should
stop eating animals for environmental reasons. Of course, the animals need to be
raised humanely (there is something inherently wrong with that word) and
ruminants should only eat pasture plants but to argue a vegan diet is more
sustainable is, I feel, very wrong. Soybean production would have to be one of
the most destructive crops around - not to even begin to take into account the
GM debate. The infatuation with carbohydrates in our diet is leading to severe
problems - most come from annual crops and therein lies the problem. Billions of
lives are lost every time a field is ploughed for a crop - be it soy, wheat corn
or vegetables - it is just that these lives are fungi, bacteria, protozoa and
all the other soil micro/macro organisms that are not "animals" so are not on
the radar. It is only lunatics such as myself that mourn their loss! I'm not
alone though, techniques are being developed to eliminate ploughing and so on,
but they often then rely on herbicides.
A spoonful of tofu results in many thousands of deaths - but not "animal"
deaths. I could rave on for a while."

If there are animals in the area it results in animal deaths whether she'll
agree with it or not. When we were kids we sometimes followed the harvesters
around so our dogs could kill rabbits after their shelter was removed. If there
are rabbits, there are smaller animals too.
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