Vegetarian Discussion: What Is Stolen?

What Is Stolen?
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George Plimpton
2010-11-19 13:05:40 EST
Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That
means that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as
to whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.

What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.

Lord Vetinari
2010-11-19 13:16:56 EST
"George Plimpton" <george@si.not> wrote in message
news:Ff-dnSKSHozpIXvRnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That means
> that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as to
> whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
>
> What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.

It appears that you are the idiot. You don't know the difference between
value and valuable.



Scott Balneaves
2010-11-19 14:05:47 EST
In alt.atheism George Plimpton <george@si.not> wrote:
> Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That
> means that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as
> to whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
>
> What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.

I think it's much *harder* to steal value, but certainly not impossible.

An example is brought to mind:

Picture 20 hectares of countryside. Meadows, some forest, perhaps a stream.
This land has "value"; as potential cottage property, as a wildlife preserve, a
public park, heck, it's even producing oxygen.

Now, big industrial company buys it, sets up a toxic waste tailing pond on it.
It still has "value", now it stores toxic waste. I'd argue it has
significantly less "value" than before.

I guess in this case, the question would be whether the company has "stolen"
the value, or merely destroyed it.

But simply stealing a $100 bill? Nah, no value's been stolen. A *valuable* has
been stolen, but the valuable kept it's value.

Maybe if the person came in and set the $100 bill on fire? Again, that's
destroying value.

Hmmm.

OK, try this one. Hard disk with all your photos on it. Thief comes in,
copies all your photos to his portable USB hard drive, and then reformats your
hard drive (yeah yeah unformat... bear with me). You still have the hard
drive, but the "value" of it has been transferred to the thief.

That's as close as I can come. Don's got a valid point; it's damned hard to
*steal* value.

Immortalist
2010-11-19 14:34:11 EST
On Nov 19, 10:16 am, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@att.net> wrote:
> "George Plimpton" <geo...@si.not> wrote in message
>
> news:Ff-dnSKSHozpIXvRnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> > Don Crache says value can't be stolen.  He's a fucking idiot.  That means
> > that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as to
> > whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
>
> > What a colossal idiot.  I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> > being stupid.  It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.
>
> It appears that you are the idiot.  You don't know the difference between
> value and valuable.

According to the labor theory of value that if an employer doesn't pay
an employee he is stealing the value. If someone puts labor into
something and it is stolen, this theory claims the value has been
stolen along with it.

Labor theory of value

The labor theories of value (LTV) are economic theories of value
according to which the values of commodities are related to the labor
needed to produce them...

...John Locke's notion, set out in the Second Treatise on Government
(1689), that property derives from labor through the act of "mixing"
one's labor with items in the common store of goods, though this has
alternatively been seen as a labor theory of property...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

Lord Vetinari
2010-11-19 16:01:46 EST
"Immortalist" <reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55bf0539-5d83-479c-969b-ebe450e099f0@y3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
: On Nov 19, 10:16 am, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@att.net> wrote:
: > "George Plimpton" <geo...@si.not> wrote in message
: >
: > news:Ff-dnSKSHozpIXvRnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
: >
: > > Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That
means
: > > that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as to
: > > whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
: >
: > > What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
: > > being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.
: >
: > It appears that you are the idiot. You don't know the difference between
: > value and valuable.
:
: According to the labor theory of value that if an employer doesn't pay
: an employee he is stealing the value.

Nonsense. If an employer doesn't pay an employee, he is stealing hard cash,
not changing a variable.

: If someone puts labor into something and it is stolen, this theory claims
the value has been
: stolen along with it.

Redundant sentence. "If you've said something once, why say it again?"

: Labor theory of value
:
: The labor theories of value (LTV) are economic theories of value
: according to which the values of commodities are related to the labor
: needed to produce them...

Anyone who has been paying any attention will realize that economic theories
rarely have any connection to the real world, and so, are of no use at all,
especially since economists just can't seem to come to any agreement as to
which theories are valid. That means that attempts to utilize any given
economic theory in the real world are experiments, which the experimenters
haven't the right to make.

: ...John Locke's notion, set out in the Second Treatise on Government
: (1689), that property derives from labor through the act of "mixing"
: one's labor with items in the common store of goods, though this has
: alternatively been seen as a labor theory of property...

Ah, argument from authority. Fail.



Mark Earnest
2010-11-19 16:21:55 EST
On Nov 19, 12:05 pm, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not> wrote:
> Don Crache says value can't be stolen.  He's a fucking idiot.  That
> means that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as
> to whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
>
> What a colossal idiot.  I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> being stupid.  It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.

Don Crache is right.
Value can't be stolen.
Gold silver and diamonds have no value, because
when you die, you can't take it with you.

What you are has value.
That, no man can steel.

Lord Vetinari
2010-11-19 16:52:20 EST
"Mark Earnest" <gmearnest@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:47dd0c08-b7c2-441a-b384-18a1f11a3cb1@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
: On Nov 19, 12:05 pm, George Plimpton <geo...@si.not> wrote:
: > Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That
: > means that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as
: > to whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
: >
: > What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
: > being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.
:
: Don Crache is right.
: Value can't be stolen.
: Gold silver and diamonds have no value, because
: when you die, you can't take it with you.
:
: What you are has value.
: That, no man can steel.

You still here? Make the world happier...leave it.



Immortalist
2010-11-19 18:37:59 EST
On Nov 19, 1:01 pm, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@att.net> wrote:
> "Immortalist" <reanimater_2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:55bf0539-5d83-479c-969b-ebe450e099f0@y3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
> : On Nov 19, 10:16 am, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@att.net> wrote:
> : > "George Plimpton" <geo...@si.not> wrote in message
> : >
> : >news:Ff-dnSKSHozpIXvRnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> : >
> : > > Don Crache says value can't be stolen. He's a fucking idiot. That
> means
> : > > that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as to
> : > > whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
> : >
> : > > What a colossal idiot. I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> : > > being stupid. It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.
> : >
> : > It appears that you are the idiot. You don't know the difference between
> : > value and valuable.
> :
> : According to the labor theory of value that if an employer doesn't pay
> : an employee he is stealing the value.
>
> Nonsense. If an employer doesn't pay an employee, he is stealing hard cash,
> not changing a variable.
>

The labor is purchased by contract and the laborer produces the value
of property by mixing his or her labor with the materials in a
production. The laborer has traded or sold his or her value produce by
and in the form of the mixture of labor and materials, therefore by
simple logic value is also stolen.

> : If someone puts labor into something and it is stolen, this theory claims
> the value has been
> : stolen along with it.
>
> Redundant sentence. "If you've said something once, why say it again?"
>

Not so, since in formal logic and the translation of plain language to
syllogisms with three terms, subject, predicate and middle term, it is
agreed that we can parametrize terms to make clear the reference when
ambiguity threatens man. Therefore your redundant sentence theory has
been reduced in probability since other good explanations are
sufficient for the case.

> : Labor theory of value
> :
> : The labor theories of value (LTV) are economic theories of value
> : according to which the values of commodities are related to the labor
> : needed to produce them...
>
> Anyone who has been paying any attention will realize that economic theories
> rarely have any connection to the real world, and so, are of no use at all,
> especially since economists just can't seem to come to any agreement as to
> which theories are valid. That means that attempts to utilize any given
> economic theory in the real world are experiments, which the experimenters
> haven't the right to make.
>

Can you show how they have not real connection to the world as you
propose? Besides the circumstances should not be used to judge the
truth or falsity of an argument.

> : ...John Locke's notion, set out in the Second Treatise on Government
> : (1689), that property derives from labor through the act of "mixing"
> : one's labor with items in the common store of goods, though this has
> : alternatively been seen as a labor theory of property...
>
> Ah, argument from authority. Fail.

Can you explain why it is an argument from authority? Maybe you should
claim "argument out of context" or something because I have
spotlighted some text without illuminating the prior arguments leading
up to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KUl4yfABE4

Michael Gordge
2010-11-19 18:48:25 EST
On Nov 20, 3:16 am, "Lord Vetinari" <vetin...@att.net> wrote:
> "George Plimpton" <geo...@si.not> wrote in message
>
> news:Ff-dnSKSHozpIXvRnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> > Don Crache says value can't be stolen.  He's a fucking idiot.  That means
> > that, if a thief breaks into his house, Crache is indifferent as to
> > whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.
>
> > What a colossal idiot.  I've seldom seen anyone who worked so hard at
> > being stupid.  It's about the only thing at which Crache succeeds.
>
> It appears that you are the idiot.  You don't know the difference between
> value and valuable.

If it is value-able then it has value, idiot.

If the robber leaves a real US$100 bill behind and steals the monopoly
money $100 bill, then he has stolen something with a far greater value
than what he's left behind.

MG

Don Kresch
2010-11-19 19:29:04 EST
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:05:40 -0800, George Plimpton <george@si.not>
scrawled in blood:

>Don Kresch says value can't be stolen.

It can't. Only physical things can be stolen. And you're going
to demonstrate it.

>. That
>means that, if a thief breaks into his house, Kresch is indifferent as
>to whether the thief steals a $100 bill, or a piece of Monopoly money.

Nope. Nice strawman. But you did show that only physical
things (the paper in both cases) can be stolen. That I attach more
value to one than the other doesn't mean that value can be stolen; it
merely means I have preferences.


Don
aa#51, Knight of BAAWA, Jedi Slackmaster
Praise "Bob" or burn in slacklessness trying not to.
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