Vegetarian Discussion: Existence Is Not "better" Than Never Existing

Existence Is Not "better" Than Never Existing
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Fred C. Dobbs
2010-05-28 13:13:57 EST
It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is necessarily
to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only one state of
welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject nonsense to suggest a
person might rationally think he is "better off" for existing rather
than never existing, because the flip side is that the person would be
"worse off" for never existing - but there wouldn't be a person to
experience the "worse off" condition if the person never existed.

This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence, because
again, there would be no entity to experience the better welfare. It
still can make sense for the person with a miserable welfare to want to
die, if his existence is intolerable to him.

Lee Frank
2010-05-28 13:30:03 EST

"Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
news:tKCdnfRy1ZZLZGLWnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is necessarily
> to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only one state of
> welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject nonsense to suggest a
> person might rationally think he is "better off" for existing rather than
> never existing, because the flip side is that the person would be "worse
> off" for never existing - but there wouldn't be a person to experience the
> "worse off" condition if the person never existed.
>
> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the person
> to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence, because again,
> there would be no entity to experience the better welfare. It still can
> make sense for the person with a miserable welfare to want to die, if his
> existence is intolerable to him.

"i kick the habit
[kick the habit
kick the habit]
shed my skin.

this is the new stuff
[is the new stuff
is the new stuff]
i go dancing in."

>peter gabriel


Fred C. Dobbs
2010-05-28 13:39:45 EST
On 5/28/2010 10:30 AM, Lee Frank wrote:
>
> "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
> news:tKCdnfRy1ZZLZGLWnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>> person never existed.
>>
>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>
> "i kick the habit
> [kick the habit
> kick the habit]
> shed my skin.
>
> this is the new stuff
> [is the new stuff
> is the new stuff]
> i go dancing in."
>
>> peter gabriel
>

Rock music is never profound. It's "music" by and for emotionally
underdeveloped people.


DT
2010-05-28 13:45:39 EST
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is necessarily
> to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only one state of
> welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject nonsense to suggest a
> person might rationally think he is "better off" for existing rather
> than never existing, because the flip side is that the person would be
> "worse off" for never existing - but there wouldn't be a person to
> experience the "worse off" condition if the person never existed.
>
> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence, because
> again, there would be no entity to experience the better welfare. It
> still can make sense for the person with a miserable welfare to want to
> die, if his existence is intolerable to him.

OK, how about this: everybody...and I mean *EVERYBODY*... admit, right
here, right now, that Fred is right.

Then maybe he'll shut up...

DT

Fred C. Dobbs
2010-05-28 13:49:53 EST
On 5/28/2010 10:45 AM, DT wrote:
> Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>> person never existed.
>>
>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>
> OK, how about this: everybody...and I mean *EVERYBODY*... admit, right
> here, right now, that Fred is right.

Well, you could, if you wish, attempt to show I'm wrong.

Lee Frank
2010-05-28 14:00:24 EST

"Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
news:SJmdnbvomM58YmLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> On 5/28/2010 10:30 AM, Lee Frank wrote:
>>
>> "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
>> news:tKCdnfRy1ZZLZGLWnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>>> person never existed.
>>>
>>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>>
>> "i kick the habit
>> [kick the habit
>> kick the habit]
>> shed my skin.
>>
>> this is the new stuff
>> [is the new stuff
>> is the new stuff]
>> i go dancing in."
>>
>>> peter gabriel
>>
>
> Rock music is never profound. It's "music" by and for emotionally
> underdeveloped people.

My Friend
>Jimi Hendrix


Well, I'm looking through Harlem
My stomach squeals just a little more
A stagecoach full of feathers and footprints,
Pulls up to my soap box door
Now a lady with a pearl handled necktie
Tied to the driver's fence
Breathes in my face,
Bourbon and coke possessed words
& "Haven't I seen you somewhere in hell,
Or was it just an accident?"
(You know how I felt then, and so:)

Before I could ask "was it the East or West side?"
My feet they howled in pain
The wheels of a bandwagon cut very deep,
But not as deep in my mind as the rain
And as they pulled away I could see her words
Stagger and fall on my muddy tent
Well I picked them up, brushed them off,
To see what they say,
And you wouldn't believe:
`Come around to my room, with the tooth in the middle,
And bring along the bottle and a president'

And eh sometimes it's not so easy, baby
Especially when your only friend,
Talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
And you do just the same as him
(Gets very lonely up this road, baby)
(Yeah, hmmm, yeah)
(Got more to say!)

Well I'm riding through LA (huh),
On a bicycle built for fools
And I seen one of my old buddies
And he say, "you don't look the way you usually do"
I say, "well, some people look like a coin-box"
He say, "look like you ain't got no coins to spare"
And I laid back and I thought to myself, and I said this:
I just picked up my pride from underneath the pay phone,
And combed this breath right out of my hair
And sometimes it's not so easy
Especially when your only friend
Talk, sees, looks and feels like you,
And you do just the same as him

Just got out of a Scandinavian jail,
And I'm on my way straight home to you
But I feel so dizzy I take a quick look in the mirror,
To make sure my friend's here with me too
And you know good well I don't drink coffee,
So you fill my cup full of sand
And the frozen tea leaves on the bottom
Sharing lipstick around the broken edge
And my coat that you let your dog lay by the fire on
And your cat he attacked me from his pill-box ledge
And I thought you were my friend too
Man, my shadow comes in line before you
I'm finding out that it's eh not so easy
Specially when your only friend
Talks, looks, sees and feels like you,
And you do the same just like him

(Lord it's so lonely here, hmmm, yeah)
Yeah!
(Pass me that bottle over there...)
Yeah, yeah, okay...



Lee Frank
2010-05-28 14:08:45 EST

"Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
news:CdWdnRIUuOzdn53RnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@earthlink.com...
> On 5/28/2010 10:45 AM, DT wrote:
>> Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
>>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>>> person never existed.
>>>
>>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>>
>> OK, how about this: everybody...and I mean *EVERYBODY*... admit, right
>> here, right now, that Fred is right.
>
> Well, you could, if you wish, attempt to show I'm wrong.

what's wrong here is you crossposting
your crap to the zen groups. nobody
here cares about your problems with other
people or your problems with rock music
or your problems in general. notice how
"your problems" seems to crop up here
continuously?


DT
2010-05-28 14:08:46 EST
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
> On 5/28/2010 10:45 AM, DT wrote:
>> Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
>>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>>> person never existed.
>>>
>>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>>
>> OK, how about this: everybody...and I mean *EVERYBODY*... admit, right
>> here, right now, that Fred is right.
>
> Well, you could, if you wish, attempt to show I'm wrong.

I'd have to freakin' *care*. I don't. You've made it clear. There is
no way to prove, logically, that existence is better than nonexistence.
Conversely, there's no way to prove that nonexistence is better than
existence.

Personally, I'm just tired of it. How long has this argument been going
on? And every time I figure out which cross-posted thread to ignore,
somebody (I ain't pointin' any fingers) goes and starts YET ANOTHER THREAD.

You win, Fred. You're right. Give us your address, and I'll send you a
nice wall plaque commemorating the event.

DT

Fred C. Dobbs
2010-05-28 14:18:04 EST
On 5/28/2010 11:00 AM, Lee Frank wrote:
>
> "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
> news:SJmdnbvomM58YmLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> On 5/28/2010 10:30 AM, Lee Frank wrote:
>>>
>>> "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
>>> news:tKCdnfRy1ZZLZGLWnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>>>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>>>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>>>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>>>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>>>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>>>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>>>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>>>> person never existed.
>>>>
>>>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>>>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>>>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>>>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>>>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>>>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>>>
>>> "i kick the habit
>>> [kick the habit
>>> kick the habit]
>>> shed my skin.
>>>
>>> this is the new stuff
>>> [is the new stuff
>>> is the new stuff]
>>> i go dancing in."
>>>
>>>> peter gabriel
>>>
>>
>> Rock music is never profound. It's "music" by and for emotionally
>> underdeveloped people.
>
> My Friend
>> Jimi Hendrix
>
>[...]

Some of Hendrix's music was good, but the lyrics blew. Nearly all rock
lyrics blow, except for the ones that don't take rock music and its
excruciatingly self-conscious ethos seriously:

Well we're big rock singers, we've got golden fingers
And we're loved everywhere we go
We sing about beauty and we sing about truth
At ten thousand dollars a show...

Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show, lyrics by Shel Silverstein

Fred C. Dobbs
2010-05-28 14:19:15 EST
On 5/28/2010 11:08 AM, Lee Frank wrote:
>
> "Fred C. Dobbs" <fred.c.dobbs@earthlink.neat> wrote in message
> news:CdWdnRIUuOzdn53RnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> On 5/28/2010 10:45 AM, DT wrote:
>>> Fred C. Dobbs wrote:
>>>> It can't be. To talk about "better than" or "worse than" is
>>>> necessarily to be comparing two states of welfare, but there is only
>>>> one state of welfare in this putative comparison. It is abject
>>>> nonsense to suggest a person might rationally think he is "better off"
>>>> for existing rather than never existing, because the flip side is that
>>>> the person would be "worse off" for never existing - but there
>>>> wouldn't be a person to experience the "worse off" condition if the
>>>> person never existed.
>>>>
>>>> This is not the same as a person who exists with a miserable welfare
>>>> thinking he'd prefer to die. Even then, it makes no sense for the
>>>> person to think he'd be "better off" if he ended his existence,
>>>> because again, there would be no entity to experience the better
>>>> welfare. It still can make sense for the person with a miserable
>>>> welfare to want to die, if his existence is intolerable to him.
>>>
>>> OK, how about this: everybody...and I mean *EVERYBODY*... admit, right
>>> here, right now, that Fred is right.
>>
>> Well, you could, if you wish, attempt to show I'm wrong.
>
> what's wrong here is you crossposting
> your crap to the zen groups.

Talk to 'dh@.' - Fuckwit David Harrison - and see if you can get him to
stop cross-posting his crap to the groups first.


> nobody
> here cares about your problems with other
> people or your problems with rock music
> or your problems in general. notice how
> "your problems" seems to crop up here
> continuously?

Nope. No problems.
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