Vegetarian Discussion: Invitation To Derek: Show Me The True Path

Invitation To Derek: Show Me The True Path
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Rupert
2008-08-22 23:50:17 EST
So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.

Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
electricity? Why?

Dutch
2008-08-23 00:39:13 EST
Rupert wrote:
> So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
> coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.

He won't, he can't, there isn't.

> Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
> electricity? Why?

Yes, because the needs of humans trump the needs of
other animals.

Rupert
2008-08-23 02:04:14 EST
On Aug 23, 12:39 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
> > coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.
>
> He won't, he can't, there isn't.
>
> > Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
> > electricity? Why?
>
> Yes, because the needs of humans trump the needs of
> other animals.

We'll wait and see what Derek has to say; you also are welcome to try
to show me the true path if you feel so inclined, but last time you
weren't.

Dutch
2008-08-23 03:37:41 EST
Rupert wrote:
> On Aug 23, 12:39 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
>>> coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.
>> He won't, he can't, there isn't.
>>
>>> Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
>>> electricity? Why?
>> Yes, because the needs of humans trump the needs of
>> other animals.
>
> We'll wait and see what Derek has to say; you also are welcome to try
> to show me the true path if you feel so inclined, but last time you
> weren't.

The true path if you want to call it that is to be
reasonable. Don't fall into semantic potholes like
thinking that "speciesism" is anything like "sexism".
We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
for animals. People like Derek who claim to believe in
or that they are in accordance with extreme AR theory
are delusional. I know that was not what you wanted to
hear, but it's the answer.

Rupert
2008-08-23 03:43:35 EST
On Aug 23, 3:37 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Aug 23, 12:39 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
> >>> coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.
> >> He won't, he can't, there isn't.
>
> >>> Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
> >>> electricity? Why?
> >> Yes, because the needs of humans trump the needs of
> >> other animals.
>
> > We'll wait and see what Derek has to say; you also are welcome to try
> > to show me the true path if you feel so inclined, but last time you
> > weren't.
>
> The true path if you want to call it that is to be
> reasonable.

Well, I remember people used to give me a hard time about the word
"reasonable". I don't see how any of my current practice is
unreasonable.

> Don't fall into semantic potholes like
> thinking that "speciesism" is anything like "sexism".
> We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
> with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
> our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
> animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
> Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
> support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
> for animals. People like Derek who claim to believe in
> or that they are in accordance with extreme AR theory
> are delusional. I know that was not what you wanted to
> hear, but it's the answer.

Actually, I agree with everything from "The world is..." to "...are
delusional."

Dutch
2008-08-23 05:20:52 EST
Rupert wrote:
> On Aug 23, 3:37 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Aug 23, 12:39 pm, Dutch <n...@email.com> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
>>>>> coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.
>>>> He won't, he can't, there isn't.
>>>>> Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
>>>>> electricity? Why?
>>>> Yes, because the needs of humans trump the needs of
>>>> other animals.
>>> We'll wait and see what Derek has to say; you also are welcome to try
>>> to show me the true path if you feel so inclined, but last time you
>>> weren't.
>> The true path if you want to call it that is to be
>> reasonable.
>
> Well, I remember people used to give me a hard time about the word
> "reasonable". I don't see how any of my current practice is
> unreasonable.

It's not, that's the point. It's the thinking behind
it that is unreasonable. It's taking a position along
the continuum of reasonableness and seeing other
places along the continuum as unreasonable, or wrong.

>> Don't fall into semantic potholes like
>> thinking that "speciesism" is anything like "sexism".
>> We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
>> with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
>> our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
>> animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
>> Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
>> support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
>> for animals. People like Derek who claim to believe in
>> or that they are in accordance with extreme AR theory
>> are delusional. I know that was not what you wanted to
>> hear, but it's the answer.
>
> Actually, I agree with everything from "The world is..." to "...are
> delusional."

You ought to agree with all of it.

Derek
2008-08-23 07:35:14 EST
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Rupert <rupertmccallum@yahoo.com> wrote:

>So, Derek, show me how I've got it wrong. There's such a thing as a
>coherent animal rights position, is there? Tell me all about it.

If your request is a genuine one and you believe I have the
answer you're looking for, Google my exchanges with other
animal welfarists like yourself on these issues over the last 6
years.

>Am I morally entitled to buy antipsychotic medication, tofu,
>electricity? Why?

If your request is a genuine one and you believe I have the
answer you're looking for, Google my exchanges with other
animal welfarists like yourself on these issues over the last 6
years.

Y' know, your meltdown reminds me of Karen's, and Slick's
response to it.

"We all have our occasional meltdowns. Take a
break and think. The problem with the above exit
is that you essentially throw a grenade into the
bunker as you take leave of all those people
who remain in it, fighting for a better society.
You may have lost faith in the arguments that
you, I, and others have presented in favor of
the approach that we have taken, but just saying
"I was wrong" without explaining how you have
reached this conclusion is, IMO, the more "cowardly"
approach. This may sound a little harsh, but I don't
feel malice toward you, just a little anger that
you have chosen to allow whatever personal problems
you are having to taint all of the decidedly rational
arguments that you - and me, and Feral, and G*RD*N,
and numerous others - have made over the years. Please
either post a rational reason for your change of
heart, or just say that you are having a crisis and
may not return. I'm saying this because no one particularly
likes me anyway, but I'm also sure that others also feel
wronged by your "announcement". "

Pearl
2008-08-23 09:30:41 EST
"Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:UDQrk.209292$gc5.82940@pd7urf2no...

> >> We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
> >> with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
> >> our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
> >> animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
> >> Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
> >> support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
> >> for animals.

'SEVEN STOREYS OF ABUNDANCE; A VISIT TO ROBERT
HART'S FOREST GARDEN

Following the Permaculture Design Course run by 'Naturewise' in the
Spring 1997, a group of graduates decided to visit what has been
described as possibly the only fully developed working Permaculture
site in the UK, Robert Hart's Forest Garden.

Situated at Wenlock Edge on the Welsh borders, Robert began the
project over thirty years ago with the intention of providing a healthy
and therapuetic environment for himself and his brother Lacon, born
with severe learning disabilities.

Starting as relatively conventional smallholders, Robert soon discovered
that maintaining large annual vegetable beds, rearing livestock and taking
care of an orchard were tasks beyond their strength. However, he also
observed that a small bed of perennial vegetables and herbs they had
planted up was looking after itself with little or no intervention.
Furthermore, these plants provided interesting and unusual additions to
the diet, as well as seeming to promote health and vigour in both body
and mind.

Noting the maxim of Hippocrates to "make food your medicine and
medicine your food", Robert adopted a vegan, 90% raw food diet.
He also began to examine the interactions and relationships that take
place between plants in natural systems, particularly in woodland, the
climax eco-system of a cool temperate region such as the British Isles.
This led him to evolve the concept of the 'Forest Garden': Based on the
observation that the natural forest can be divided into distinct layers or
'storeys', he developed an existing small orchard of apples and pears
into an edible landscape consisting of seven dimensions;

I) A 'canopy' layer consisting of the original mature fruit trees.
2) A 'low-tree' layer of smaller nut and fruit trees on dwarfing
root stocks.
3) A 'shrub layer' of fruit bushes such as currants and berries.
4) A 'herbaceous layer' of perennial vegetables and herbs.
5) A 'ground cover' layer of edible plants that spread horizontally.
6) A 'rhizosphere' or 'underground' dimension of plants grown
for their roots and tubers.
7) A vertical 'layer' of vines and climbers.

[illustration -
The Forest Garden: A Seven Level Beneficial Guild
1. Canopy (large fruit and nut trees)
2. Low tree layer (dwarf fruit trees)
3. Shrub layer (currants and berries)
4. Herbaceous (comfreys, beets, herbs)
5. Rhizosphere (root vegetables)
6. Soil surface (ground cover, eg. strawberry, etc)
7. Vertical layer (climbers, vines) ]

Stepping into the Forest Garden is like entering another world. All
around is lushness and abundance, a sharp contrast to the dust bowl
aridity of the surrounding prairie farmed fields and farmlands. At
first the sheer profusion of growth is bewildering, like entering a
wild wood. We're not used to productive landscapes appearing so
disorderly. But it doesn't take long for the true harmony of nature's
systems to reveal themselves, and the realisation sinks in that in fact
it is the Agribiz monocultures, with their heavy machinery, genetic
manipulation, erosion, high water inputs, pesticides and fertilisers
which are in a total state of maintained chaos. Whereas hectares of
land may produce bushel after bushel of but one crop, genetically
degraded and totally vulnerable to ever more virulent strains of pest
and disease without the dubious protection of massive chemical
inputs, just an eighth of an acre of a garden such as Robert's can
output a tremendous variety of yields. Whilst too early in the year for
the apples, plums and pears beginning to swell in the trees, we were
surrounded by gluts of black, red and whitecurrants, gooseberries,
raspberries and loganberries; as well as a profusion of saladings
such as sorrel, lovage, tree-onions, wild garlic, borage, lemon balm
and many other herbs.

Foraging a meal for the nine of us was an extremely enjoyable task,
not like work at all. Robert, a gentle and erudite man, yet possessed
of a great clarity of purpose, joined us for our campfire feast. As we
sat and chatted into the evening he explained his motivations and
hopes for the future. Of his plans to expand the original Forest Garden,
and his dream of a network of such gardens covering not only Britain
but the world, bringing an abundance of natural food, and healing to
both peoplekind and the planet. He spoke of his philosophical
inspiration by figures as diverse as John Seymour, Ghandi, Kropotkin
and Kagawa; of the antecedents of the Forest Garden such as the
'home gardens' of Kerala, where most of the land is covered with
productive trees; and later sang us songs that he used to share with
his late brother Lacon, including those of murdered Chilean land and
human rights campaigner Victor Jara.

This was a magical evening, an illustration that perhaps the primary
forces within the Forest Garden are of spirituality and peace. Whilst
being highly productive of nuts, fruits, fresh perennial vegetables
and medicinal herbs, the most important yield of this place is the
reminder that there is much more to how we find sustenance as
human beings than what we consume, than looking at our sources
of nourishment purely in terms of net tonnes per hectare. The
forest garden is an idea whose time has come.

"Obviously, few of us are in a position to restore the forests.. But
tens of millions of us have gardens, or access to open spaces
such as industrial wastelands, where trees can be planted. and if
full advantage can be taken of the potentialities that are available
even in heavily built up areas, new 'city forests' can arise..."
(Robert A.de J.Hart)


GRAHAM BURNETT


Taken from VOHAN News International, issue 2, available from
'Anandavan

http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/forestgarden/page2.html



Dutch
2008-08-23 14:35:13 EST
pearl wrote:
> "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:UDQrk.209292$gc5.82940@pd7urf2no...
>
>>>> We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
>>>> with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
>>>> our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
>>>> animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
>>>> Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
>>>> support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
>>>> for animals.
>
> 'SEVEN STOREYS

Forests Good, now would you please do your
Copy-Pasting in a new thread.

Rudy Canoza
2008-08-23 14:42:14 EST
Dutch wrote:
> pearl wrote:
>> "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message
>> news:UDQrk.209292$gc5.82940@pd7urf2no...
>>
>>>>> We're not saints, we're animals. The world is dense
>>>>> with living organisms, we can't avoid killing them,
>>>>> our species is in competition with them. Don't torture
>>>>> animals, don't act with callous disregard for them.
>>>>> Try to act in ways that protect the environment,
>>>>> support and advocate for ways to improve conditions
>>>>> for animals.
>>
>> 'SEVEN STOREYS
>
> Forests Good, now would you please do your Copy-Pasting in a new thread.

Copypasta; see http://tinyurl.com/ymwrzg
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