Vegetarian Discussion: Some Real Scientific Information On Raw Vegan Diets

Some Real Scientific Information On Raw Vegan Diets
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Dragonblaze
2008-08-03 11:25:28 EST
"Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan
diet (‘living food diet’) is compromised."
Rauma AL, Torronen R, Hanninen O, Mykkanen H.

Journal of Nutrition, 1995 Oct; vol. 125, pp. 2511-5.

Abstract:
The present study examined the vitamin
B-12 status in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet called the "living food diet." The study was
comprised of two parts. In the cross-sectional part, the
data on serum vitamin B-12 concentrations and dietary
intakes in 21 (1 male, 20 females) long-term adherents
(mean 5.2 y, range 0.7-14) of the "living food diet"
were compared with those of 21 omnivorous controls
matched for sex, age, social status and residence. In
the longitudinal part of the study, food consumption
data were collected and blood samples were taken from
nine "living food eaters" (1 male, 8 females) on two
occasions 2 y apart. The cross-sectional study revealed
significantly (P < 0.001, paired t test) lower serum
vitamin B-12 concentrations in the vegans (mean 193
pmol/L, range 35-408) compared with their matched
omnivorous controls (311, 131-482). In the vegan
group, total vitamin B-12 intake correlated significantly
(r = 0.63, P < 0.01) with serum vitamin B-12 concen
tration. The vegans consuming Nori and/or Chlorella
seaweeds (n = 16) had serum vitamin B-12 concentra
tions twice as high as those not using these seaweeds
(n = 5) (mean 221 pmol/L, range 75-408, vs. 105,
35-252, P = 0.025). In the longitudinal study, six of
nine vegans showed slow, but consistent deterioration
of vitamin B-12 status over a 2-y observation period.
On the basis of these results we conclude that some
seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply ad
equate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12. However,
the average use of seaweeds and fermented foods by
"living food eaters" will not supply enough vitamin B-
12 to maintain the body vitamin B-12 status. J. Mutr.
125:2511-2515, 1995.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/125/10/2511


"Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-
up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements."
Donaldson MS.
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, 2000; vol. 44, pp. 229-34.

Abstract:
Pure vegetarian diets might cause cobalamin deficiency due to lack of
dietary intake. It was hypothesized that a population following a
vegan diet consuming mostly raw fruits and vegetables, carrot juice,
and dehydrated barley grass juice would be able to avoid vitamin B12
deficiency naturally. METHODS: Subjects were recruited at a health
ministers' reunion based on adherence to the Hallelujah diet for at
least 2 years. Serum cobalamin and urinary methylmalonic acid (MMA)
assays were performed. Follow-up with sublingual tablets, nutritional
yeast, or probiotic supplements was carried out on subjects with
abnormal MMA results. RESULTS: 49 subjects were tested. Most subjects
(10th to 90th percentile) had followed this diet 23-49 months. 6
subjects had serum B12 concentrations <147 pmol/l (200 pg/ml). 37
subjects (76%) had serum B12 concentrations <221 pmol/l (300 pg/ml).
23 subjects (47%) had abnormal urinary MMA concentrations above or
equal to 4.0 microg/mg creatinine. Sublingual cyanocobalamin and
nutritional yeast, but not probiotic supplements, significantly
reduced group mean MMA concentrations (tablet p < 0.01; yeast p <
0.05, probiotic > 0.20). CONCLUSIONS: The urinary MMA assay is
effective for identifying early metabolic cobalamin deficiency. People
following the Hallelujah diet and other raw-food vegetarian diets
should regularly monitor their urinary MMA levels, consume a
sublingual cobalamin supplement, or consume cobalamin in their food.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11146329?dopt=Abstract


"Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and
menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey."
Koebnick C, Strassner C, Hoffmann I, Leitzmann C.
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, 1999; vol. 43, pp. 69-79.

Abstract:
OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the strictness of long-
term raw food diets and body weight loss, underweight and amenorrhea.
METHODS: In a cross-sectional study 216 men and 297 women consuming
long-term raw food diets (3.7 years; SE 0.25) of different intensities
completed a specially developed questionnaire. Participants were
divided into 5 groups according to the amount of raw food in their
diet (70-79, 80-89, 90-94, 95-99 and 100%). A multiple linear
regression model (n = 513) was used to evaluate the relationship
between body weight and the amount of raw food consumed. Odds of
underweight were determined by a multinomial logit model. RESULTS:
From the beginning of the dietary regimen an average weight loss of
9.9 kg (SE 0.4) for men and 12 kg (SE 0.6) for women was observed.
Body mass index (BMI) was below the normal weight range (<18.5 kg/
m(2)) in 14.7% of male and 25.0% of female subjects and was negatively
related to the amount of raw food consumed and the duration of the raw
food diet. About 30% of the women under 45 years of age had partial to
complete amenorrhea; subjects eating high amounts of raw food (>90%)
were affected more frequently than moderate raw food dieters.
CONCLUSIONS: The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a
high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited
underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be
recommended on a long-term basis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10436305?dopt=Abstract


"Effect of a strict vegan diet on energy and nutrient intakes by
Finnish rheumatoid patients."
Rauma AL, Nenonen M, Helve T, Hanninen O.
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1993 Oct; vol. 47, pp. 747-9.

Abstract:
Dietary intake data of 43 Finnish rheumatoid arthritis patients were
collected using 7-day food records. The subjects were randomized into
a control and a vegan diet groups, consisting of 22 and 21 subjects,
respectively. The subjects in the vegan diet group received an
uncooked vegan diet ('living food') for 3 months, and they were
tutored daily by a living-food expert. The subjects in the control
group continued their usual diets and received no tutoring. Adherence
to the strict vegan diet was assessed on the basis of urinary sodium
excretion and by the information on consumption of specific food items
(wheatgrass juice and the rejuvelac drink). The use of these drinks
was variable, and some boiled vegetables were consumed occasionally.
However, only one of the subjects in the vegan diet group lacked a
clear decrease in urinary sodium excretion. Rheumatoid patients had
lower than recommended intakes of iron, zinc and niacin, and their
energy intake was low compared to mean daily energy intake of the
healthy Finnish females of the same age. Shifting to the uncooked
vegan diet significantly increased the intakes of energy and many
nutrients. In spite of the increased energy intake, the group on the
vegan diet lost 9% of their body weight during the intervention
period, indicating a low availability of energy from the vegan diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8269890?dopt=Abstract


"Dental erosions in subjects living on a raw food diet."
Ganss C, Schlechtriemen M, Klimek J.
Caries Research, 1999; vol. 33, pp. 74-80.

Abstract:
The aim of the study was to investigate the frequency and severity of
dental erosions and its association with nutritional and oral hygiene
factors in subjects living on a raw food diet. As part of a larger
dietary study 130 subjects whose ingestion of raw food was more than
95% of the total food intake were examined. The median duration of the
diet was 39 (minimum 17, maximum 418) months. Before the clinical
examination, the participants answered questionnaires and recorded
their food intake during a 7-day period. Dental erosions were
registered using study models. As a control 76 sex- and age-matched
patients from our clinic were randomly selected. The raw food diet
records showed the median daily frequency of ingesting citrus fruit to
be 4.8 (minimum 0.5, maximum 16.1). The median intake of fruit was 62%
(minimum 25%, maximum 96%) of the total, corresponding to an average
consumption of 9.5 kg of fruit (minimum 1.5, maximum 23.7) per week.
Compared to the control group subjects living on a raw food diet had
significantly (p</=0.001) more dental erosions. Only 2.3% of the raw
food group (13.2% of the controls) had no erosive defects, whereas
37.2% had at least one tooth with a moderate erosion (55.2% of the
controls) and 60.5% had at least one tooth with a severe erosion
(31.6% of the controls). Within the raw food group no significant
correlation was found between nutrition or oral health data and the
prevalence of erosions. Nevertheless, the results showed that a raw
food diet bears an increased risk of dental erosion compared to
conventional nutrition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9831783?dopt=Abstract

A*@sfas.com
2008-08-03 12:19:09 EST
The real question is not if the articles posted are "real" science. The
better question is do they represent the range of "real" science on the
topic so one can come to an informed conclusion by weighing all the
research.

Too often cherry picked results are chosen by food cults and represented
as "science" while real science makes an explicit and determined point of
not doing so. One can for example find web sites which survey the
research on the question of the health impact of consuming soy. One can
post food cult pages which pick among the research to seem to support
their notions alone. By doing so they come to oppisite conclusions on the
soy question but fail the "real" science test as above.

Rupert
2008-08-04 20:40:20 EST
I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
"raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
"expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
about taking them over the last year or so.)

Dragonblaze
2008-08-05 03:10:07 EST
On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> about taking them over the last year or so.)

I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
be available from the diet.

Dragonblaze

Rudy Canoza
2008-08-05 03:59:40 EST
Dragonblaze wrote:
> On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
>> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
>> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
>> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
>> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
>> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
>> about taking them over the last year or so.)
>
> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem.

They don't. They ignore it; they completely whiff off on it.


> In my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> supplements,

Exactly right.


> but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> be available from the diet.

Correct.

Rupert
2008-08-05 09:47:11 EST
On Aug 5, 3:10 pm, Dragonblaze <dragonbl...@apexmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> > accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> > "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> > B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> > "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> > B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> > about taking them over the last year or so.)
>
> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem.

Well, that's a good question; I wouldn't know, I have no interest in
making such a claim.

> In
> my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> be available from the diet.
>
> Dragonblaze


Pearl
2008-08-05 10:21:46 EST
"Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message news:effe720f-94fc-49ec-b463-0ae99e0ff472@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> about taking them over the last year or so.)

I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
be available from the diet.

----

Read this:

The B12-Cobalt Connection
http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm

Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
(And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).

Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.

How conventional industrial agriculture compounds the problem -

'Mineral content: This may be the most important nutritional difference
between organic and regular produce since heavy use of fertilizer inhibits
absorption of some minerals, which are likely to be at lower levels to
begin with in soils that have been abused. This may be caused in part
by the lack of beneficial mycorrhizae fungi on the roots since high levels
of fertilizer tend to kill them. Standard diets tend to be low in various
minerals, resulting in a variety of problems including osteoporosis.
..'
http://math.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Health%20&%20Nutrition/Foods/organic.html

Emphasis added -

'Suzuki1 (1995, Japan) studied 6 vegan children eating a genmai-
saishoku (GS) diet, which is based on high intakes of brown rice
and contains plenty of sea vegetables, including 2-4 g of nori
per day ("dried laver"); as well as hijiki, wakame, and kombu.
*The foods are organically grown and many are high in cobalt*
(buckwheat, adzuki beans, kidney beans, shiitake, hijiki).
Serum B12 levels of the children are shown:

Results of Suzuki.1
age(yrs) years vegan sB12
7.1 4.4 520
7.7 4.4 720
8.6A 8.6 480
8.8A 8.8 300
12.7 10 320
14.6 10 320
average 443 (\ufffd 164)
A - Exclusively breast-fed until 6 months old. Mothers had been
vegan for 9.6 and 6.5 yrs prior to conception. Both mothers
consumed 2 g of nori per day.
..'
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

* 'Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?

Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with
marginal vitamin B12 status-that is, if a careful look at nearly 3,000
men and women in the ongoing Framingham (Massachusetts)
Offspring Study is any indication. Researchers found that 39 percent
of the volunteers have plasma B12 levels in the "low normal" range-
below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).

While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level
of 148 pmol/L, some people exhibit neurological symptoms at the
upper level of the deficiency range, explains study leader Katherine
L. Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer
USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts
University in Boston.

"I think there's a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there,"
says Tucker. She noted that nearly 9 percent of the study population
fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell
below 185 pmol/L. "Many people may be deficient at this level,"
she says. "There is some question as to what the clinical cutoff for
deficiency should be."

Deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger
red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances,
a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases,
dementia. The body requires B12 to make the protective coating
surrounding the nerves. So inadequate B12 can expose nerves to
damage.

Tucker and colleagues wanted to get a sense of B12 levels spanning
the adult population because most previous studies have focused on the
elderly. That age group was thought to be at higher risk for deficiency.
The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary
intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association.
Some of the results were surprising. The youngest group-the 26 to 49
year olds-had about the same B12 status as the oldest group- 65 and up.
"We thought that low concentrations of B12 would increase with age,"
says Tucker. "But we saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among
the youngest group."

The good news is that for many people, eating more fortified cereals
and dairy products can improve B12 status almost as much as taking
supplements containing the vitamin. Supplement use dropped the
percentage of volunteers in the danger zone (plasma B12 below 185
pmol/L) from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more
times a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced,
by nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone-from 23 and
24 percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.

The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat,
poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12
in the diet. "It's not because people aren't eating enough meat," Tucker
says. "The vitamin isn't getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound
to proteins in meat and dairy products and requires high acidity to cut
it loose. As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach. But
what causes poor absorption in younger adults? Tucker speculates that
the high use of antacids may contribute. But why absorption from dairy
products appears to be better than from meats is a question that needs
more research. Fortified cereals are a different story. She says the
vitamin is sprayed on during processing and is "more like what we get
in supplements."

By Judy McBride, Agricultural Research Service Information Staff.
This research is part of Human Nutrition, an ARS National Program
(#107) described on the World Wide Web. Katherine L. Tucker is
at the Jean Mayer USDA-ARS Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, 711 Washington St., Boston, MA 02111;
..
"Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?" was published in the August 2000
issue of Agricultural Research magazine.

http://www.epic4health.com/areyouvitb12.html

A couple more points to ponder here..

"As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach."

Is it therefore natural for your omnivorous human to become
B12-deficient with age?

"high use of antacids"

Is it's natural for humans to suffer from acid-indigestion?

Any idea which "foods" are associated with this condition?




Rudy Canoza
2008-08-05 11:53:54 EST
pearl wrote:
> "Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message news:effe720f-94fc-49ec-b463-0ae99e0ff472@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
>> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
>> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
>> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
>> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
>> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
>> about taking them over the last year or so.)
>
> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
> my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> be available from the diet.
>
> ----
>
> Read this:
>
> The B12-Cobalt Connection
> http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm
>
> Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
> (And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).
>
> Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.

Not an answer to his question, stupid cow. If a raw "vegan" diet is the
so-called "natural" diet for humans - it is *not*, of course - then why
would you need to take supplements?

You're fucked.


>
> [snip steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE]

Pearl
2008-08-05 12:28:02 EST
"Rudy Canoza" <pipes@thedismalscience.not> wrote in message news:tNGdnS147JJA6gXVnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> pearl wrote:
> > "Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:effe720f-94fc-49ec-b463-0ae99e0ff472@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> > On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> >> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> >> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> >> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> >> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> >> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> >> about taking them over the last year or so.)
> >
> > I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> > vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
> > my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> > supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> > be available from the diet.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Read this:
> >
> > The B12-Cobalt Connection
> > http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm
> >
> > Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
> > (And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).
> >
> > Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.
>
> Not an answer to his

Her.

> question, stupid cow. If a raw "vegan" diet is the
> so-called "natural" diet for humans - it is *not*, of course - then why
> would you need to take supplements?

Read the "steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE" you snipped, fool.

> You're fucked.
>
>
> >
> > [snip steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE]



Rudy Canoza
2008-08-05 15:07:58 EST
pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" <pipes@thedismalscience.not> wrote in message news:tNGdnS147JJA6gXVnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> pearl wrote:
>>> "Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
> news:effe720f-94fc-49ec-b463-0ae99e0ff472@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert <rupertmccal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
>>>> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
>>>> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
>>>> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
>>>> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
>>>> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
>>>> about taking them over the last year or so.)
>>> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
>>> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
>>> my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
>>> supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
>>> be available from the diet.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Read this:
>>>
>>> The B12-Cobalt Connection
>>> http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm
>>>
>>> Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
>>> (And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).
>>>
>>> Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.
>> Not an answer to his
>
> Her.

Big fucking deal, foot-rubbing whore.


>> question, stupid cow. If a raw "vegan" diet is the
>> so-called "natural" diet for humans - it is *not*, of course - then why
>> would you need to take supplements?
>
> Read the "steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE"

It doesn't answer the question, foot-rubbing whore. *WHY* would
"supplements" be necessary if a "raw 'vegan'" diet is the "natural" diet
for humans?

You can't answer. You're fucked.
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