Vegetarian Discussion: Getting Past The 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People From Quitting Meat And Dairy (by Kathy Freston)

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And/or Www.mantra.com/jai Dr. Jai Maharaj
2008-06-09 16:31:46 EST
Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat and Dairy

By Kathy Freston, Huffington Post
Posted on June 3, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/86942/

When I tell people that I'm a vegan, the most popular
question, by far, inevitably follows: "But, how do you get
enough protein?"

There it is again, I think, the meat industry's most potent
weapon against vegetarianism -- the protein myth. And it is
just that -- a myth.

In fact, humans need only 10 percent of the calories we
consume to be from protein. Athletes and pregnant women
need a little more, but if you're eating enough calories
from a varied plant based diet, it's close to impossible to
not to get enough.

The way Americans obsess about protein, you'd think protein
deficiency was the number one health problem in America. Of
course it's not -- it's not even on the list of the
ailments that doctors are worried about in America or any
other countries where basic caloric needs are being met.

What is on the list? Heart disease, cancer, diabetes,
obesity -- diseases of affluence. Diseases linked to eating
animal products. According to the American Dietetic
Association, which looked at all of the science on
vegetarian diets and found not just that they're healthy,
but that they "provide health benefits in the prevention
and treatment of certain diseases."

They continue: "Well-planned vegan and other types of
vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life
cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy,
childhood and adolescence ... Vegetarians have been
reported to have lower body mass indices than
nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from
ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood
cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates
of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon
cancer."

Dr. Dean Ornish writes of his Eat More, Weigh Less
vegetarian diet -- the one diet that has passed peer-review
for taking weight off and keeping it off for more than 5
years -- that in addition to being the one scientifically
proven weight loss plan that works long-term, it "may help
to prevent a wide variety of other illnesses including
breast cancer in women, prostate cancer in men, colon
cancer, lung cancer, lymphoma, osteoporosis, diabetes,
hypertension, and so on ...."

So when people ask me about protein, I explain that protein
is not a problem on a vegan diet, that the real problems
that are plaguing us in the West can be addressed in part
with a vegetarian diet, and that I get my protein the same
way everyone else does -- I eat!

Beans, nuts, seeds, lentils, and whole grains are packed
with protein. So are all vegetables as a caloric
percentage, though they don't have enough calories to
sustain most people as a principal source of sustenance.
And these protein sources have some excellent benefits that
animal protein does not -- they contain plenty of fiber and
complex carbohydrates, where meat has none. That's right:
Meat has no complex carbs at all, and no fiber. Plant
proteins are packed with these essential nutrients.

Plus, since plant-based protein sources don't contain
cholesterol or high amounts of saturated fat, they are much
better for you than meat, eggs, and dairy products.

It is also worth noting the very strong link between animal
protein and a few key diseases, including cancer and
osteoporosis.

According to Dr. Ornish (this may be the most interesting
link in this article, by the way -- it's worth reading the
entire entry), "high-protein foods, particularly excessive
animal protein, dramatically increase the risk of breast
cancer, prostate cancer, heart disease, and many other
illnesses. In the short run, they may also cause kidney
problems, loss of calcium in the bones, and an unhealthy
metabolic state called ketosis in many people."

The cancer connection is spelled out at length in a
fantastic book by Cornell scientist T. Colin Campbell,
called The China Study. Basically, there is overwhelming
scientific evidence to implicate that animal protein
consumption causes cancer.

And just a few quick anecdotal points:

* Olympian Carl Lewis has said that his best year of
track competition was the first year that he ate a vegan
diet (he is still a strong proponent of vegan diets for
athletes).

* Strength trainer Mike Mahler says, "Becoming a vegan
had a profound effect on my training. ... [M]y bench press
excelled past 315 pounds, and I noticed that I recovered
much faster. My body fat also went down, and I put on 10
pounds of lean muscle in a few months."

* Bodybuilder Robert Cheeke advises, "The basics for
nutrition are consuming large amounts of fresh green
vegetables and a variety of fruits, to load yourself up
with vibrant vitamins and minerals."

A few other vegans, all of whom sing the praises of the
diet for their athletic performance: Ultimate fighter Mac
Danzig, ultramarathoner Scott Jurek, Minnesota Twins
pitcher Pat Neshek, Atlanta Hawks Guard Salim Stoudamire,
and Kansas City Chiefs tight-end Tony Gonzalez.

And let's not forget about tennis star Martina Navratilova,
six-time Ironman winner Dave Scott, four-time Mr. Universe
Bill Pearl, or Stan Price, the world-record holder in bench
press. They are just a few of the successful vegetarian
athletes.

Basically, vegans and vegetarians needn't fret about
protein, but many Americans do need to worry about their
weight, heart disease, cancer, and other ailments -- many
of which can be addressed by healthier eating, including a
vegan or vegetarian diet.

Vegetarians and vegans get all the nutrients our bodies
need from plants, and will thus, according to the science,
be more likely to maintain a healthy weight and stave off a
variety of ailments, from heart disease to cancer.

For answers to other popular questions about conscious
eating, please check out my previous post on the topic
here.

Happy eating!

End of forwarded message

Please visit:
http://www.pcrm.org

Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti

Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust

Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org

The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate

DISCLAIMER AND CONDITIONS

o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.

Laurie
2008-06-10 13:44:03 EST
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat and Dairy

Try some facts:
http://ecologos.org/pro.htm
http://ecologos.org/pp.htm

Laurie


--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

Harmony
2008-06-10 17:20:01 EST
most meat eaters belong to monothiest religions derived from ever warring,
human-right violating, unstable mideast. so, god sent them his son jesus who
told them not to kill or eat meat. but the meat eaters killed jesus.


<*t@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20080609OCF14gEPsyz3rNAbM1tq842@J82EG...
> Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat and
> Dairy
>
> By Kathy Freston, Huffington Post
> Posted on June 3, 2008
> http://www.alternet.org/story/86942/
>
> When I tell people that I'm a vegan, the most popular
> question, by far, inevitably follows: "But, how do you get
> enough protein?"
>
> There it is again, I think, the meat industry's most potent
> weapon against vegetarianism -- the protein myth. And it is
> just that -- a myth.
>
> In fact, humans need only 10 percent of the calories we
> consume to be from protein. Athletes and pregnant women
> need a little more, but if you're eating enough calories
> from a varied plant based diet, it's close to impossible to
> not to get enough.
>
> The way Americans obsess about protein, you'd think protein
> deficiency was the number one health problem in America. Of
> course it's not -- it's not even on the list of the
> ailments that doctors are worried about in America or any
> other countries where basic caloric needs are being met.
>
> What is on the list? Heart disease, cancer, diabetes,
> obesity -- diseases of affluence. Diseases linked to eating
> animal products. According to the American Dietetic
> Association, which looked at all of the science on
> vegetarian diets and found not just that they're healthy,
> but that they "provide health benefits in the prevention
> and treatment of certain diseases."
>
> They continue: "Well-planned vegan and other types of
> vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life
> cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy,
> childhood and adolescence ... Vegetarians have been
> reported to have lower body mass indices than
> nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from
> ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood
> cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates
> of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon
> cancer."
>
> Dr. Dean Ornish writes of his Eat More, Weigh Less
> vegetarian diet -- the one diet that has passed peer-review
> for taking weight off and keeping it off for more than 5
> years -- that in addition to being the one scientifically
> proven weight loss plan that works long-term, it "may help
> to prevent a wide variety of other illnesses including
> breast cancer in women, prostate cancer in men, colon
> cancer, lung cancer, lymphoma, osteoporosis, diabetes,
> hypertension, and so on ...."
>
> So when people ask me about protein, I explain that protein
> is not a problem on a vegan diet, that the real problems
> that are plaguing us in the West can be addressed in part
> with a vegetarian diet, and that I get my protein the same
> way everyone else does -- I eat!
>
> Beans, nuts, seeds, lentils, and whole grains are packed
> with protein. So are all vegetables as a caloric
> percentage, though they don't have enough calories to
> sustain most people as a principal source of sustenance.
> And these protein sources have some excellent benefits that
> animal protein does not -- they contain plenty of fiber and
> complex carbohydrates, where meat has none. That's right:
> Meat has no complex carbs at all, and no fiber. Plant
> proteins are packed with these essential nutrients.
>
> Plus, since plant-based protein sources don't contain
> cholesterol or high amounts of saturated fat, they are much
> better for you than meat, eggs, and dairy products.
>
> It is also worth noting the very strong link between animal
> protein and a few key diseases, including cancer and
> osteoporosis.
>
> According to Dr. Ornish (this may be the most interesting
> link in this article, by the way -- it's worth reading the
> entire entry), "high-protein foods, particularly excessive
> animal protein, dramatically increase the risk of breast
> cancer, prostate cancer, heart disease, and many other
> illnesses. In the short run, they may also cause kidney
> problems, loss of calcium in the bones, and an unhealthy
> metabolic state called ketosis in many people."
>
> The cancer connection is spelled out at length in a
> fantastic book by Cornell scientist T. Colin Campbell,
> called The China Study. Basically, there is overwhelming
> scientific evidence to implicate that animal protein
> consumption causes cancer.
>
> And just a few quick anecdotal points:
>
> * Olympian Carl Lewis has said that his best year of
> track competition was the first year that he ate a vegan
> diet (he is still a strong proponent of vegan diets for
> athletes).
>
> * Strength trainer Mike Mahler says, "Becoming a vegan
> had a profound effect on my training. ... [M]y bench press
> excelled past 315 pounds, and I noticed that I recovered
> much faster. My body fat also went down, and I put on 10
> pounds of lean muscle in a few months."
>
> * Bodybuilder Robert Cheeke advises, "The basics for
> nutrition are consuming large amounts of fresh green
> vegetables and a variety of fruits, to load yourself up
> with vibrant vitamins and minerals."
>
> A few other vegans, all of whom sing the praises of the
> diet for their athletic performance: Ultimate fighter Mac
> Danzig, ultramarathoner Scott Jurek, Minnesota Twins
> pitcher Pat Neshek, Atlanta Hawks Guard Salim Stoudamire,
> and Kansas City Chiefs tight-end Tony Gonzalez.
>
> And let's not forget about tennis star Martina Navratilova,
> six-time Ironman winner Dave Scott, four-time Mr. Universe
> Bill Pearl, or Stan Price, the world-record holder in bench
> press. They are just a few of the successful vegetarian
> athletes.
>
> Basically, vegans and vegetarians needn't fret about
> protein, but many Americans do need to worry about their
> weight, heart disease, cancer, and other ailments -- many
> of which can be addressed by healthier eating, including a
> vegan or vegetarian diet.
>
> Vegetarians and vegans get all the nutrients our bodies
> need from plants, and will thus, according to the science,
> be more likely to maintain a healthy weight and stave off a
> variety of ailments, from heart disease to cancer.
>
> For answers to other popular questions about conscious
> eating, please check out my previous post on the topic
> here.
>
> Happy eating!
>
> End of forwarded message
>
> Please visit:
> http://www.pcrm.org
>
> Jai Maharaj
> http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
> http://www.mantra.com/jai
> http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
> Om Shanti
>
> Hindu Holocaust Museum
> http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
>
> Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
> http://www.hindu.org
> http://www.hindunet.org
>
> The truth about Islam and Muslims
> http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
>
> DISCLAIMER AND CONDITIONS
>
> o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the
> educational
> purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may
> not
> have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
> poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
> fair use of copyrighted works.
> o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
> considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name,
> current
> e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
> o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others
> are
> not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the
> article.
>
> FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
> which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
> owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
> understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
> democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
> that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with
> Title
> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
> profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the
> included
> information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
> subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more
> information
> go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> copyright owner.



Luuk Wants Hayden's Inflatable
2008-06-10 22:49:26 EST
folks who believe there's no protein in veggies, fruits alone, let them be
known of course nuts, grains, seeds... beans...


are just wannabees and hail to the wisdom of the meatheaded-atarians.

this is just as bad as fish eaters calling themselves vegetarians...

and vegans who eat processed 'vegan' foods... preaching the gospel of
being a vegan.


there's fundamentalist wannabe scuz balls all over.


let them think they'll die... maybe that'll be a blessing while the rest of
us strive and won't be bothered by them.



<*t@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20080609OCF14gEPsyz3rNAbM1tq842@J82EG...
> Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat and
> Dairy
>
> By Kathy Freston, Huffington Post
> Posted on June 3, 2008
> http://www.alternet.org/story/86942/
>
> When I tell people that I'm a vegan, the most popular
> question, by far, inevitably follows: "But, how do you get
> enough protein?"
>
> There it is again, I think, the meat industry's most potent
> weapon against vegetarianism -- the protein myth. And it is
> just that -- a myth.
>
> In fact, humans need only 10 percent of the calories we
> consume to be from protein. Athletes and pregnant women
> need a little more, but if you're eating enough calories
> from a varied plant based diet, it's close to impossible to
> not to get enough.
>
> The way Americans obsess about protein, you'd think protein
> deficiency was the number one health problem in America. Of
> course it's not -- it's not even on the list of the
> ailments that doctors are worried about in America or any
> other countries where basic caloric needs are being met.
>
> What is on the list? Heart disease, cancer, diabetes,
> obesity -- diseases of affluence. Diseases linked to eating
> animal products. According to the American Dietetic
> Association, which looked at all of the science on
> vegetarian diets and found not just that they're healthy,
> but that they "provide health benefits in the prevention
> and treatment of certain diseases."
>
> They continue: "Well-planned vegan and other types of
> vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life
> cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy,
> childhood and adolescence ... Vegetarians have been
> reported to have lower body mass indices than
> nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from
> ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood
> cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates
> of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon
> cancer."
>
> Dr. Dean Ornish writes of his Eat More, Weigh Less
> vegetarian diet -- the one diet that has passed peer-review
> for taking weight off and keeping it off for more than 5
> years -- that in addition to being the one scientifically
> proven weight loss plan that works long-term, it "may help
> to prevent a wide variety of other illnesses including
> breast cancer in women, prostate cancer in men, colon
> cancer, lung cancer, lymphoma, osteoporosis, diabetes,
> hypertension, and so on ...."
>
> So when people ask me about protein, I explain that protein
> is not a problem on a vegan diet, that the real problems
> that are plaguing us in the West can be addressed in part
> with a vegetarian diet, and that I get my protein the same
> way everyone else does -- I eat!
>
> Beans, nuts, seeds, lentils, and whole grains are packed
> with protein. So are all vegetables as a caloric
> percentage, though they don't have enough calories to
> sustain most people as a principal source of sustenance.
> And these protein sources have some excellent benefits that
> animal protein does not -- they contain plenty of fiber and
> complex carbohydrates, where meat has none. That's right:
> Meat has no complex carbs at all, and no fiber. Plant
> proteins are packed with these essential nutrients.
>
> Plus, since plant-based protein sources don't contain
> cholesterol or high amounts of saturated fat, they are much
> better for you than meat, eggs, and dairy products.
>
> It is also worth noting the very strong link between animal
> protein and a few key diseases, including cancer and
> osteoporosis.
>
> According to Dr. Ornish (this may be the most interesting
> link in this article, by the way -- it's worth reading the
> entire entry), "high-protein foods, particularly excessive
> animal protein, dramatically increase the risk of breast
> cancer, prostate cancer, heart disease, and many other
> illnesses. In the short run, they may also cause kidney
> problems, loss of calcium in the bones, and an unhealthy
> metabolic state called ketosis in many people."
>
> The cancer connection is spelled out at length in a
> fantastic book by Cornell scientist T. Colin Campbell,
> called The China Study. Basically, there is overwhelming
> scientific evidence to implicate that animal protein
> consumption causes cancer.
>
> And just a few quick anecdotal points:
>
> * Olympian Carl Lewis has said that his best year of
> track competition was the first year that he ate a vegan
> diet (he is still a strong proponent of vegan diets for
> athletes).
>
> * Strength trainer Mike Mahler says, "Becoming a vegan
> had a profound effect on my training. ... [M]y bench press
> excelled past 315 pounds, and I noticed that I recovered
> much faster. My body fat also went down, and I put on 10
> pounds of lean muscle in a few months."
>
> * Bodybuilder Robert Cheeke advises, "The basics for
> nutrition are consuming large amounts of fresh green
> vegetables and a variety of fruits, to load yourself up
> with vibrant vitamins and minerals."
>
> A few other vegans, all of whom sing the praises of the
> diet for their athletic performance: Ultimate fighter Mac
> Danzig, ultramarathoner Scott Jurek, Minnesota Twins
> pitcher Pat Neshek, Atlanta Hawks Guard Salim Stoudamire,
> and Kansas City Chiefs tight-end Tony Gonzalez.
>
> And let's not forget about tennis star Martina Navratilova,
> six-time Ironman winner Dave Scott, four-time Mr. Universe
> Bill Pearl, or Stan Price, the world-record holder in bench
> press. They are just a few of the successful vegetarian
> athletes.
>
> Basically, vegans and vegetarians needn't fret about
> protein, but many Americans do need to worry about their
> weight, heart disease, cancer, and other ailments -- many
> of which can be addressed by healthier eating, including a
> vegan or vegetarian diet.
>
> Vegetarians and vegans get all the nutrients our bodies
> need from plants, and will thus, according to the science,
> be more likely to maintain a healthy weight and stave off a
> variety of ailments, from heart disease to cancer.
>
> For answers to other popular questions about conscious
> eating, please check out my previous post on the topic
> here.
>
> Happy eating!
>
> End of forwarded message
>
> Please visit:
> http://www.pcrm.org
>
> Jai Maharaj
> http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
> http://www.mantra.com/jai
> http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
> Om Shanti
>
> Hindu Holocaust Museum
> http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
>
> Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
> http://www.hindu.org
> http://www.hindunet.org
>
> The truth about Islam and Muslims
> http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
>
> DISCLAIMER AND CONDITIONS
>
> o Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the
> educational
> purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may
> not
> have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
> poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
> fair use of copyrighted works.
> o If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
> considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name,
> current
> e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
> o Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others
> are
> not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the
> article.
>
> FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
> which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
> owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
> understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
> democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
> that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
> provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with
> Title
> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
> profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the
> included
> information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
> subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more
> information
> go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
> If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> copyright owner.



Luuk Wants Hayden's Inflatable
2008-06-10 22:50:12 EST
oh no watch out she'll think you're a fatass no matter how rickety thin you
may be.



"Laurie" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:feWdnWBxrtH0INPVnZ2dnUVZ_sPinZ2d@posted.echolabs...
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat and
>> Dairy
>
> Try some facts:
> http://ecologos.org/pro.htm
> http://ecologos.org/pp.htm
>
> Laurie
>
>
> --
> Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
> http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
> news:alt.food.vegan.science



Dragonblaze
2008-06-11 12:03:45 EST
On 10 Jun, 22:20, "harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> most meat eaters belong to monothiest religions derived from ever warring,
> human-right violating, unstable mideast.

Not me I don't, since I'm an agnostic.

> so, god sent them his son jesus who
> told them not to kill or eat meat. but the meat eaters killed jesus.

Quote book, chapter and verse where Jesus tells anybody not to eat
meat.


On the contrary, let's see what the Bible really says as regards Jesus
and animal-based food:

Mark 6:38-41: "He said to them, “How many loaves do you have? Go and
see.” When they found out, they said, “Five – and two fish.” Then he
directed them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. So they
reclined in groups of hundreds and fifties. He took the five loaves
and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke
the loaves. He gave them to his disciples to serve the people, and he
divided the two fish among them all."

Mark 7:18-19: "He said to them, “Are you so foolish? Don’t you
understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile
him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes
out into the sewer.” (This means all foods are clean.)"

Mark 14:12-14 Now on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread,
when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, Jesus’ disciples said to him,
“Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?” He sent
two of his disciples and told them, “Go into the city, and a man
carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Wherever he enters,
tell the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is my guest
room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?”’

Eating Passover - as if weren't clear enough from the text - means
eating the sacrificed lamb.

Luke 24:36-42: " While they were saying these things, Jesus himself
stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” But they were
startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost. Then he said to
them, “Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Look at my hands and my feet; it’s me! Touch me and see; a ghost does
not have flesh and bones like you see I have.” When he had said this,
he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still could not
believe it (because of their joy) and were amazed, he said to them,
“Do you have anything here to eat?” So they gave him a piece of
broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in front of them."

Not much of a vegan, eh? Seems quite happy to eat lamb and fish.

Next time you try to base veganism on Jesus, read the frigging Bible
first!

Dragonblaze

Pearl
2008-06-11 15:36:17 EST
"Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message news:cfa36a46-1c1d-4d2d-9fee-690f114ef133@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>On 10 Jun, 22:20, "harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> most meat eaters belong to monothiest religions derived from ever warring,
>> human-right violating, unstable mideast.
>
> Not me I don't, since I'm an agnostic.
>
>> so, god sent them his son jesus who
>> told them not to kill or eat meat. but the meat eaters killed jesus.
>
> Quote book, chapter and verse where Jesus tells anybody not to eat
> meat.

''Every church had its favored books, and since there was nothing like
a clearly-defined orthodoxy until the 4th century, there were in fact
many simultaneous literary traditions.The illusion that it was otherwise
is created by the fact that the church that came out on top simply
preserved texts in its favor and destroyed or let vanish opposing
documents. Hence what we call "orthodoxy" is simply "the church
that won."

The second point that this presses upon us is that since the drive to
find canonical written texts was created by the need to refute heretics,
anti-heretical and other rhetoric influenced both the selection of texts
as well as the editing or writing of the texts themselves.
....'
http://home.freeuk.com/jesusmyth/formatn.htm

'In his book The Text of the New Testament, Dr. Vincent Taylor writes
that "The manuscripts of the New Testament preserve traces of two
kinds of dogmatic alterations: those which involve the elimination or
alteration of what was regarded as doctrinally unacceptable or
inconvenient, and those which introduce into the Scriptures proof for
a favorite theological tenet or practice".

'To put Dr. Taylor's words in perspective: What Dr. Taylor is stating
is that, whatever doctrine Jesus taught which the Church of the Roman
Empire did not agree with, there is overwhelming evidence that the church
corrupters removed what was objectionable from their perspective. In like
manner, whatever doctrines the Church regarded as being true, regardless
of whether that belief was supported in the scriptures, the Church
inserted this belief into the Bible in an attempt to make it authentic. What
Dr. Taylor is warning us is there is good reason to conclude that our
scriptures have been rewritten by the Church of Constantine. Now the
question that is being posed here is whether you believe the theological
tenets of Rome, or the disciples of Christ -- because the two are not the
same.
...'
http://reluctant-messenger.com/biblical-corruption.htm

'Medieval Sourcebook:
Bernard Gui on the Albigensians

An experienced inquisitor describes the Albigensians

It would take too long to describe in detail the manner in which
these same Manichaean heretics preach and teach their followers,
but it must be briefly considered here.

In the first place, they usually say of themselves that they are good
Christians, who do not swear, or lie, or speak evil of others; that
they do not kill any man or animal, nor anything having the breath
of life, and that they hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ and his
gospel as the apostles taught. They assert that they occupy the
place of the apostles, and that, on account of the above- mentioned
things, they of the Roman Church, namely the prelates, clerks, and
monks, and especially the inquisitors of heresy persecute them and
call them heretics, although they are good men and good Christians,
and that they are persecuted just as Christ and his apostles were by
the Pharisees. Moreover they talk to the laity of the evil lives of the
clerks and prelates of the Roman Church, pointing out and setting
forth their pride, cupidity, avarice, and uncleanness of life, and such
other evils as they know. They invoke with their own interpretation
and according to their abilities the authority of the Gospels and the
Epistles against the condition of the prelates, churchmen, and monks,
whom they call Pharisees and false prophets, who say, but do no.
...
>From the Inquisitor's Manual of Bernard Gui [d.1331], early 14th
century, translated in J. H. Robinson, Readings in European History,
(Boston: Ginn, 1905), pp. 381-383
..
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/gui-cathars.html

John 19
8 Pilate also had an inscription written and put on the cross.
It read, "Jesus the Nazorean, the King of the Jews."
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john19.htm

'Nasaraeans, meaning, "rebels," who forbid all flesh-eating, and do
not eat living things at all. They have the holy names of patriarchs
which are in the Pentateuch, up through Moses and Joshua the son
of Nun, and they believe in them-(2) I mean Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,
and the earliest ones, and Moses himself, and Aaron, and Joshua.
But they hold that the scriptures of the Pentateuch were not written by
Moses, and maintain that they have others. (Epiphanius, Panarion 1:19)
..'
http://essenes.net/sz17.htm

>On the contrary, let's see what the Bible really says as regards Jesus
>and animal-based food:
>
>Mark 6:38-41: "He said to them, \ufffdHow many loaves do you have? Go and
>see.\ufffd When they found out, they said, \ufffdFive \ufffd and two fish.\ufffd Then he
>directed them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. So they
>reclined in groups of hundreds and fifties. He took the five loaves
>and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke
>the loaves. He gave them to his disciples to serve the people, and he
>divided the two fish among them all."

'4. And the day was far spent, and his disciples came unto him and said,
This is a desert place, and now the time is far passed. Send them away,
that they may go into the country round about into the villages, and buy
themselves bread, for they have nothing to eat.
5. He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say
unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and
give them to eat ?
6. He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when
they knew, they said, Six loaves and seven clusters of grapes. And he
commanded them to make all sit down by companies of fifty upon the
grass. And they sat down in ranks by hundreds and by fifties.
7. And when he had taken the six loaves and the seven clusters of grapes,
he looked up to heaven, and blessed and brake the loaves, and the grapes
also and gave them to his disciples to set before them and they divided
them among them all.
8. And they did all eat and were filled. And they took up twelve baskets
full of the fragments that were left. And they that did eat of the loaves
and of the fruit were about five thousand men, women and children, and
he taught them many things.
..'
http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_3.htm#Lection290

>Mark 7:18-19: "He said to them, \ufffdAre you so foolish? Don\ufffdt you
>understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile
>him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes
>out into the sewer.\ufffd (This means all foods are clean.)"

'2. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, they who partake
of benefits which are gotten by wronging one of God's creatures,
cannot be righteous: nor can they touch holy things, or teach the
mysteries of the kingdom, whose hands are stained With blood, or
whose mouths are defiled with flesh.
3. God giveth the grains and the fruits of the earth for food: and for
righteous man truly there is no other lawful sustenance for the body.
4. The robber who breaketh into the house made by man is guilty, but
they who break into the house made by God, even of the least of these
are the greater sinners. Wherefore I say unto all who desire to be my
disciples, keep your hands from bloodshed and let no flesh meat enter
your mouths, for God is just and bountiful, who ordaineth that man
shall live by the fruits and seeds of the earth alone.
..'
http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_4.htm#Lection380

>Mark 14:12-14 Now on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread,
>when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, Jesus\ufffd disciples said to him,
>\ufffdWhere do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?\ufffd He sent
>two of his disciples and told them, \ufffdGo into the city, and a man
>carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Wherever he enters,
>tell the owner of the house, \ufffdThe Teacher says, \ufffdWhere is my guest
>room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?\ufffd\ufffd

'The Last Paschal Supper
..
4. And Yeshua said, With desire have I desired to eat this Passover
with you before I suffer. and to institute the Memorial of my Oblation
for the service and salvation of all. For behold the hour cometh when
the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of sinners.
5. And one of the twelve said unto him, Lord, is it I ? And he answered,
He to whom I give the sop the same is he.
6. And Iscariot said unto him, Master, behold the unleaven bread, the
mingled wine and the oil and the herbs, but where is the lamb that Moses
commanded? (for Judas had bought the lamb, but Yeshua had forbidden
that it should be killed).
7. And John spake in the Spirit, saying, Behold the Lamb of God, the
good Shepherd which giveth his life for the sheep. And Judas was
troubled at these words, for he knew that he should betray him. But
again Judas said, Master, is it not written in the law that a lamb must
be slain for the passover within the gates?
8. And Yeshua answered, If I am lifted up on the cross then indeed
shall the lamb be slain; but woe unto him by whom it is delivered into
the hands of the slayers; it were better of him had he not been born.
9. Verily I say unto you, for this end have I come into the world, that
I may put away all blood offerings and the eating of the flesh of the
beasts and the birds that are slain by men.
10. In the beginning, God gave to all, the fruits of the trees, and the
seeds, and the herbs, for food; but those who loved themselves more
than God, or their fellows, corrupted their ways, and brought diseases
into their bodies, and filled the earth with lust and violence.
11. Not by shedding innocent blood, therefore, but by living a righteous
life, shall ye find the peace of God. Ye call me the Christ of God and ye
say well, for I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.
12. Walk ye in the Way, and ye shall find God. Seek ye the Truth, and
the Truth shall make you free. Live in the Life, and ye shall see no death.
All things are alive in God, and the Spirit of God filleth all things.
13. Keep ye the commandments. Love thy God with all thy heart, and
love thy neighbour as thyself. On these hang all the law and the prophets.
And the sum of the law is this - Do not ye unto others as ye would not
that others should do unto you. Do ye unto others, as ye would that
others should do unto you.
14. Blessed are they who keep this law, for God is manifested in all
creatures. All creatures live in God, and God is hid in them.
.. '
http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_8.htm#Lection750

>Eating Passover - as if weren't clear enough from the text - means
>eating the sacrificed lamb.

EJP | News | Western Europe | Pope suggests link between Jesus
and mysterious Essene sect...
In addition, the pope said Thursday, Jesus celebrated Passover
"without a lamb, as did the Essene community," which did not
sacrifice animals. ...
www.ejpress.org/article/15698

>Luke 24:36-42: " While they were saying these things, Jesus himself
>stood among them and said to them, \ufffdPeace be with you.\ufffd But they were
>startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost. Then he said to
>them, \ufffdWhy are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
>Look at my hands and my feet; it\ufffds me! Touch me and see; a ghost does
>not have flesh and bones like you see I have.\ufffd When he had said this,
>he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still could not
>believe it (because of their joy) and were amazed, he said to them,
>\ufffdDo you have anything here to eat?\ufffd So they gave him a piece of
>broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in front of them."

'1. THEN the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when
the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the
Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be
unto you. But they were affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
2. And he said unto them, Behold, it is I myself, like as ye have seen me
aforetime. A spirit can in deed appear in flesh and bones as ye see me have.
Behold my hands and my feet, handle and see.
3. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his Heart.
Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
4. For Thomas, called Didymus, one of the disciples, had said unto them,
Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into
his heart, I will not believe. Then saith he to Thomas, Behold my hands, my
heart, and my feet; reach hither thy hands, and be not faithless but believing.
5. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God! And
Yeshua saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast
believed; blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.
6. Then saith Yeshua unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma
hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed
on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel,
and anounce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man.
7. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And
whosoever forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever
continue in their sins they are retained unto them.
8. Baptise them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer
ye the pure Oblation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto
you for a Memorial of me.
9. Lo, I have given my body and my blood to be offered on the Cross, for
the redemption of the world from the sin against love, and from the bloody
sacrifices and feasts of the past.
10. And ye shall offer the Bread of life, and the Wine of salvation, for a
pure Oblation with incense, as it is written of me, and ye shall eat and drink
thereof for a memorial, that I have delivered all who believe in me from the
ancient bondage of your ancestors.
11. For they, making a god of their belly, sacrificed unto their god the
innocent creatures of the earth, in place of the carnal nature within themselves.
12. And eating of their flesh and drinking of their blood to their own
destruction, corrupted their bodies and shortened their days, even as the
Gentiles who knew not the truth, or who knowing it, have changed it into a lie.
..'
http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_9.htm#Lection870

>Not much of a vegan, eh? Seems quite happy to eat lamb and fish.
>
>Next time you try to base veganism on Jesus, read the frigging Bible
>first!
>
>Dragonblaze



Pearl
2008-06-11 15:41:47 EST
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:g2p95u$a85$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
<..>
> The second point that this presses upon us is that since the drive to
> find canonical written texts was created by the need to refute heretics,
> anti-heretical and other rhetoric influenced both the selection of texts
> as well as the editing or writing of the texts themselves.
> ....'
> http://home.freeuk.com/jesusmyth/formatn.htm

Correct link -
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html




Harmony
2008-06-11 17:54:38 EST

"Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfa36a46-1c1d-4d2d-9fee-690f114ef133@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On 10 Jun, 22:20, "harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> most meat eaters belong to monothiest religions derived from ever warring,
> human-right violating, unstable mideast.

Not me I don't, since I'm an agnostic.

> so, god sent them his son jesus who
> told them not to kill or eat meat. but the meat eaters killed jesus.

Quote book, chapter and verse where Jesus tells anybody not to eat
meat.


On the contrary, let's see what the Bible really says as regards Jesus
and animal-based food:

Mark 6:38-41: "He said to them, \ufffdHow many loaves do you have? Go and
see.\ufffd When they found out, they said, \ufffdFive \ufffd and two fish.\ufffd Then he
directed them all to sit down in groups on the green grass. So they
reclined in groups of hundreds and fifties. He took the five loaves
and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke
the loaves. He gave them to his disciples to serve the people, and he
divided the two fish among them all."

Mark 7:18-19: "He said to them, \ufffdAre you so foolish? Don\ufffdt you
understand that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile
him? For it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and then goes
out into the sewer.\ufffd (This means all foods are clean.)"

Mark 14:12-14 Now on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread,
when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, Jesus\ufffd disciples said to him,
\ufffdWhere do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?\ufffd He sent
two of his disciples and told them, \ufffdGo into the city, and a man
carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Wherever he enters,
tell the owner of the house, \ufffdThe Teacher says, \ufffdWhere is my guest
room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?\ufffd\ufffd

Eating Passover - as if weren't clear enough from the text - means
eating the sacrificed lamb.

Luke 24:36-42: " While they were saying these things, Jesus himself
stood among them and said to them, \ufffdPeace be with you.\ufffd But they were
startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost. Then he said to
them, \ufffdWhy are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Look at my hands and my feet; it\ufffds me! Touch me and see; a ghost does
not have flesh and bones like you see I have.\ufffd When he had said this,
he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still could not
believe it (because of their joy) and were amazed, he said to them,
\ufffdDo you have anything here to eat?\ufffd So they gave him a piece of
broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in front of them."

Not much of a vegan, eh? Seems quite happy to eat lamb and fish.

Next time you try to base veganism on Jesus, read the frigging Bible
first!

Dragonblaze

-----------------------------------------------------

xtianity was spread peacefully to billions of people based on the principle
of non-violence taught by jesus.



Rudy Canoza
2008-06-11 19:05:37 EST
Laurie wrote:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
>> Getting Past the 'Protein Myth' That Keeps People from Quitting Meat
>> and Dairy
>
> Try some facts:
> http://ecologos.org/pro.htm
> http://ecologos.org/pp.htm

There are no "facts" on the stridently anti-science site "ecologos.org".
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