Vegetarian Discussion: Handouts_and_state_benefits_to_farmers_top_£1BILLION_of_tax_payers_money._Time_to_end_this_scandal_that_costs_us_dearly.?

Handouts_and_state_benefits_to_farmers_top_£1BILLION_of_tax_payers_money._Time_to_end_this_scandal_that_costs_us_dearly.?
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Old Codger
2008-02-15 07:14:52 EST
No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.

http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk


£1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
Date : 06.02.08

An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
crisis.

Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
bosses will have to tighten their belts further.

Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.

Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
be reduced.

The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
£48 million.

Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.

Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
"Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
environmental services.

"What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
own making," he said.

"Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.

"Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."

Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
will be discussed today.

In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.

Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
million.

She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.

Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
"salami-slicing" all areas of spending.

A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.

"No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
money for the taxpayer.

"Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
the aim of being finalised in early 2008."

However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".

He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
decide whether to cut some services completely.

"It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.

He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
temporary staff in the past five years.

"It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
much-needed environmental protection work," he said.


OM SHIVA!108
2008-02-17 09:44:45 EST
On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
wrote:
> No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
> farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk
>
> £1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
> Date : 06.02.08
>
> An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
> rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
> crisis.
>
> Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
> initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
> bosses will have to tighten their belts further.
>
> Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
> reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
> the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
>
> Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
> for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
> Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
> impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
> responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
> to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
> Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
> expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
> are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.
>
> Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
> spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
> be reduced.
>
> The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
> Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
> fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
> and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
> leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
> £48 million.
>
> Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
> salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.
>
> Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
> "Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
> environmental services.
>
> "What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
> own making," he said.
>
> "Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
> the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
> Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
> This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.
>
> "Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."
>
> Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
> included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
> worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
> will be discussed today.
>
> In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
> staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
> set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.
>
> Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
> Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
> department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
> million.
>
> She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
> flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
> influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
> day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.
>
> Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
> are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
> "salami-slicing" all areas of spending.
>
> A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.
>
> "No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
> added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
> is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
> money for the taxpayer.
>
> "Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
> the aim of being finalised in early 2008."
>
> However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
> claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".
>
> He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
> agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
> decide whether to cut some services completely.
>
> "It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
> recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.
>
> He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
> billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
> temporary staff in the past five years.
>
> "It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
> much-needed environmental protection work," he said.

How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?


OM SHIVA!108
2008-02-17 09:48:19 EST
On Feb 17, 2:44 pm, "OM SHIVA!108" <grimus...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
> > farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk
>
> > £1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
> > Date : 06.02.08
>
> > An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
> > rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
> > crisis.
>
> > Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
> > initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
> > bosses will have to tighten their belts further.
>
> > Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
> > reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
> > the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
>
> > Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
> > for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
> > Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
> > impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
> > responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
> > to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
> > Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
> > expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
> > are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.
>
> > Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
> > spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
> > be reduced.
>
> > The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
> > Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
> > fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
> > and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
> > leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
> > £48 million.
>
> > Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
> > salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.
>
> > Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
> > "Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
> > environmental services.
>
> > "What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
> > own making," he said.
>
> > "Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
> > the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
> > Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
> > This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.
>
> > "Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."
>
> > Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
> > included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
> > worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
> > will be discussed today.
>
> > In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
> > staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
> > set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.
>
> > Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
> > Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
> > department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
> > million.
>
> > She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
> > flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
> > influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
> > day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.
>
> > Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
> > are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
> > "salami-slicing" all areas of spending.
>
> > A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.
>
> > "No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
> > added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
> > is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
> > money for the taxpayer.
>
> > "Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
> > the aim of being finalised in early 2008."
>
> > However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
> > claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".
>
> > He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
> > agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
> > decide whether to cut some services completely.
>
> > "It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
> > recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.
>
> > He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
> > billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
> > temporary staff in the past five years.
>
> > "It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
> > much-needed environmental protection work," he said.
>
> How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?

CHECK CHECK CHECK CHECK CHECK

http://www.shoutcast.com/directory/index.phtml

'Mike'
2008-02-17 10:25:24 EST




"OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:af659811-7d33-44b5-badd-8e2069972e6d@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
wrote:

> How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?

How about learning how to snip?

Kind regards

Mike


--
www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
After a lot of trouble www.nsrafa.org is now up and running for the National
Service RAF man



Jim Webster
2008-02-17 10:27:27 EST

"OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:af659811-7d33-44b5-badd-8e2069972e6d@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...

>How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?

Too late, there are no production subsidies for food production, all there
is is for environment and some support for organic

Jim Webster



OM SHIVA!108
2008-02-17 10:28:36 EST
On Feb 17, 3:25 pm, "'Mike'" <3d...@woolies.com> wrote:
> "OM SHIVA!108" <grimus...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:af659811-7d33-44b5-badd-8e2069972e6d@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> > How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?
>
> How about learning how to snip?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Mike
>
> --www.rneba.org.uk. The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
> 'THE' Association to find your ex-Greenie mess mates.www.iowtours.comfor all ex-Service Reunions. More being added regularly
> After a lot of troublewww.nsrafa.orgis now up and running for the National
> Service RAF man

I'm sorry?

Old Codger
2008-02-17 11:36:36 EST
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:28:42 +0000, Julie <000@000.net> wrote:

>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:27:27 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>><jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:44:45 -0800 (PST), "OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>> No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
>>>> farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.
>>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk
>>>>
>>>> £1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
>>>> Date : 06.02.08
>>>>
>>>> An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
>>>> rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
>>>> crisis.
>>>>
>>>> Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
>>>> initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
>>>> bosses will have to tighten their belts further.
>>>>
>>>> Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
>>>> reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
>>>> the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
>>>>
>>>> Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
>>>> for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
>>>> Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
>>>> impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
>>>> responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
>>>> to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
>>>> Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
>>>> expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
>>>> are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.
>>>>
>>>> Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
>>>> spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
>>>> be reduced.
>>>>
>>>> The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
>>>> Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
>>>> fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
>>>> and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
>>>> leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
>>>> £48 million.
>>>>
>>>> Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
>>>> salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.
>>>>
>>>> Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
>>>> "Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
>>>> environmental services.
>>>>
>>>> "What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
>>>> own making," he said.
>>>>
>>>> "Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
>>>> the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
>>>> Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
>>>> This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.
>>>>
>>>> "Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."
>>>>
>>>> Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
>>>> included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
>>>> worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
>>>> will be discussed today.
>>>>
>>>> In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
>>>> staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
>>>> set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.
>>>>
>>>> Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
>>>> Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
>>>> department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
>>>> million.
>>>>
>>>> She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
>>>> flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
>>>> influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
>>>> day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.
>>>>
>>>> Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
>>>> are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
>>>> "salami-slicing" all areas of spending.
>>>>
>>>> A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.
>>>>
>>>> "No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
>>>> added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
>>>> is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
>>>> money for the taxpayer.
>>>>
>>>> "Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
>>>> the aim of being finalised in early 2008."
>>>>
>>>> However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
>>>> claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".
>>>>
>>>> He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
>>>> agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
>>>> decide whether to cut some services completely.
>>>>
>>>> "It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
>>>> recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.
>>>>
>>>> He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
>>>> billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
>>>> temporary staff in the past five years.
>>>>
>>>> "It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
>>>> much-needed environmental protection work," he said.
>>>
>>>How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?

>>Too late, there are no production subsidies for food production, all there
>>is is for environment and some support for organic

>>Jim Webster

>Not quite true Jimmy. Milk quotas are huge business and attract vast
>handouts. crop and livestock payments are just as beneficial as they
>have ever been, allowing many farmers to live just for the handout
>which is all wrong.
>
>To claim there are no handouts in livestock farming is a blatant lie.
>http://www.rpa.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/home

Jim actually lives on handouts for livestock farming himself.

They are wrong and crippling the industry

http://www.yrtk.org/2005/england-farm-subsidies-online/

No wonder he's ashamed to admit it.



Old Codger
2008-02-17 11:49:08 EST
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:36:36 +0000, Old Codger
<*r@hereNthereneverywhere.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:28:42 +0000, Julie <000@000.net> wrote:
>
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:27:27 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>>><jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:44:45 -0800 (PST), "OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
>>>>> farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk
>>>>>
>>>>> £1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
>>>>> Date : 06.02.08
>>>>>
>>>>> An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
>>>>> rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
>>>>> crisis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
>>>>> initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
>>>>> bosses will have to tighten their belts further.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
>>>>> reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
>>>>> the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
>>>>> for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
>>>>> Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
>>>>> impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
>>>>> responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
>>>>> to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
>>>>> Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
>>>>> expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
>>>>> are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
>>>>> spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
>>>>> be reduced.
>>>>>
>>>>> The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
>>>>> Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
>>>>> fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
>>>>> and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
>>>>> leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
>>>>> £48 million.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
>>>>> salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
>>>>> "Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
>>>>> environmental services.
>>>>>
>>>>> "What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
>>>>> own making," he said.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
>>>>> the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
>>>>> Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
>>>>> This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."
>>>>>
>>>>> Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
>>>>> included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
>>>>> worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
>>>>> will be discussed today.
>>>>>
>>>>> In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
>>>>> staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
>>>>> set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
>>>>> Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
>>>>> department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
>>>>> million.
>>>>>
>>>>> She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
>>>>> flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
>>>>> influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
>>>>> day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
>>>>> are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
>>>>> "salami-slicing" all areas of spending.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> "No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
>>>>> added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
>>>>> is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
>>>>> money for the taxpayer.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
>>>>> the aim of being finalised in early 2008."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
>>>>> claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".
>>>>>
>>>>> He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
>>>>> agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
>>>>> decide whether to cut some services completely.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
>>>>> recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.
>>>>>
>>>>> He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
>>>>> billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
>>>>> temporary staff in the past five years.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
>>>>> much-needed environmental protection work," he said.
>>>>
>>>>How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?
>
>>>Too late, there are no production subsidies for food production, all there
>>>is is for environment and some support for organic
>
>>>Jim Webster
>
>>Not quite true Jimmy. Milk quotas are huge business and attract vast
>>handouts. crop and livestock payments are just as beneficial as they
>>have ever been, allowing many farmers to live just for the handout
>>which is all wrong.
>>
>>To claim there are no handouts in livestock farming is a blatant lie.
>>http://www.rpa.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/home
>
>Jim actually lives on handouts for livestock farming himself.
>
>They are wrong and crippling the industry
>
>http://www.yrtk.org/2005/england-farm-subsidies-online/
>
>No wonder he's ashamed to admit it.
>

As an example here is some difficult information to find

FOIA Law Discloses British Farm Subsidies, Now Posted on Web

Royals Received More Than £1,000,000 in EU Agricultural Support


Farm Subsidy Figures Revealed for First Time After FOIA Request from
the Guardian, Excel Spreadsheets Now Searchable on freedominfo.org

For more information:
Tom Blanton - 202/994-7000

April 7, 2005 - The British royal family received more than £1,000,000
in European Union (EU) agricultural support over the last two years,
according to figures recently revealed under the new British Freedom
of Information Act and now available on the World Wide Web.

For the first time the United Kingdom disclosed information on the
amounts and recipients of EU Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)
subsidies on March 22, thanks to a request filed with the UK's Rural
Payments Agency (RPA) by the Guardian newspaper. The freedominfo.org
Web site today published the released data in the form received from
the agency -- a pair of Microsoft Excel spreadsheets -- along with an
explanatory note issued by RPA on how to interpret the data. Also
posted today were two tables listing the top 20 recipients of UK farm
subsidies for the last two years.

The figures show that the Queen received more than £769,000 in EU farm
subsidies in fiscal years 2003-04, while Prince Charles benefited from
around £300,000 in agricultural payments to his personal estate, the
Duchy of Cornwall, and the Duchy's Home Farm.

"The Queen is a landowner and a farmer," a spokesman for the monarch
told the Guardian. "She receives a subsidy, just as any other farmer
would do."

Tate and Lyle, a prominent sugar refiner, received the largest payment
by far: more than £233,000,000 in export subsidies over the two-year
period.

Critics of the subsidies complain that they primarily benefit
multinational corporations and the wealthiest landowners. "For too
long people have been misled to believe that farm subsidies are about
protecting small and family farms," Jack Thurston of the Foreign
Policy Centre -- which also requested the CAP figures -- told BBC
News. "This data shows conclusively that most of the EU's CAP payments
goes to large agribusiness and wealthy landowners."

European Commission agriculture spokesman Michael Mann told the BBC,
"There is no doubt that the CAP does protect small family farms
becuase small family farms continue to exist and thrive in the EU."
The system has changed since the period covered by these figures, he
added, noting that payments are no longer based on the amount of land
and animals farmed, and that farmers can now produce what the market
needs and are rewarded for preserving the countryside. While the
European Commission has considered putting limits on payments to
individual farmers, the idea was rejected by European ministers,
including those from Great Britain.

Similar and far more detailed information on United States farm
subsidies has been available since a lawsuit brought by the Washington
Post forced the U.S. Department of Agriculture to reveal the data in
1996. The ruling, which found the release of the information a matter
of "significant public interest," empowered advocacy organizations
like the Environmental Working Group -- which had also been working to
obtain the figures -- to create a massive online database of farm
subsidy payments from raw data obtained using the U.S. Freedom of
Information Act. Now the most current and reliable source of its kind,
EWG's Farm Subsidy Database has been searched more than 25 million
times in the last four months alone.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explanatory Note

The Rural Payments Agency issued the following explanatory note on how
to interpret the CAP subsidy data.

Also available in PDF (84 KB)

--------

CAP SUBSIDY PAYMENTS

This note summarises the general background to the information on CAP
subsidy payments being released on 22 March 2005 and, in particular,
the reasons for interpreting this material with care.

1. The Common Agricultural Policy has a range of economic, social and
environmental objectives. It comprises a wide range of measures
covering the production of, and trade in, agricultural products. Some
of these measures are financial, others not. The payment data alone
will not give a full picture of the support which individuals or
businesses may receive from the CAP.

2. Market price support, which historically formed a large part of the
CAP support system, has been partially replaced by a system of direct
payments to farmers. Such payments were until 2005 largely based on
what and how much a farmer produced under a range of different schemes
for crops, livestock or other activities. In England, major changes
are taking place this year which will decouple direct payments from
production.

3. In certain circumstances, intervention purchases or private storage
aid may operate to remove surplus production from the market.

4. The CAP leads certain commodity prices to be higher in the EU than
in the rest of the world. In these circumstances, exporters of
commodities or processed products may be entitled to apply for export
refunds to compensate. Producers of certain secondary products
(starch, casein, sugar for use in the chemical sector) are entitled to
production refunds for the same reason.

5. The information here is drawn from the financial records of the
Rural Payments Agency (RPA). It represents an annual aggregate figure
for payments to each recipient under the schemes listed in the
Appendix to this note. It should be interpreted with care (more
detailed comment is in paragraph 13 below.)

6. It should not be assumed that there is only one entry per business.
For some recipients, there will be several entries reflecting the
structure or nature of the business; for others a single entry will
cover a number of discrete businesses variously located in the UK, or
even in the UK and elsewhere in the EU; and some international
businesses that are active in the UK may nonetheless have no entry at
all because they choose to make all their claims in another member
state.

7. For farmers, most payments are made at a fixed rate determined in
EU law and farmers have a legal entitlement to those payments. In the
case of food manufacturers or traders, export refunds are generally
determined by a tender process and the level of payment may fluctuate
over time. In some cases, entitlement to aid will be conditional on
the recipient having paid a prescribed minimum price for the raw
material. In any case, the extent to which an individual farmer or
business benefits from the full range of CAP measures will not be
apparent from payment data alone.

8. Direct comparisons between entries for businesses in the same
sector or sectors may accordingly be misleading. Furthermore, CAP
payments form only a part of the revenue of a business and are not
indicative of net income levels or profitability, which depend on a
much wider range of factors.

9. It may also not be possible to make direct comparisons with other
published figures about CAP payments due to the precise basis on which
the figures have been compiled.

10. The information covers those payments for which RPA is responsible
and includes payments made under Integrated Administration and Control
System (IACS) schemes in England and under non IACS schemes throughout
the UK. It does not include information about payments made under IACS
schemes by the EU Paying Agencies in Scotland, Wales or Northern
Ireland.

11. In some cases, payments need to be subsequently adjusted for a
variety of reasons such as new information coming to light or errors
in original applications. The data in these lists will not include
most of these adjustments except where they applied to a subsequent
payment in the same payment year.

12. The information contained in the spreadsheets was derived from
RPA's automated payments database (Oracle Financials Accounts
Payable). It is an extraction of all CAP payment activity undertaken
in the EU financial year which runs from 16 October to 15 October the
following year (This being the most complete set of audited annual
figures available). No distinction has been made in the spreadsheets
regarding the funding route (i.e. the figures include all payments
whether they have been funded by EAGGF or the UK Exchequer.)

13. To interpret the information contained in the spreadsheets, and
particularly when viewing non farm based (non IACS) customer
information, the recipient needs to bear in mind the following:

The figures produced are gross amounts and may differ when compared to
the amount actually 'received' by the customer as some element of the
payment may have been automatically 'intercepted' to pay off an
outstanding debt.
The spreadsheet figure does not take into account the issue of credit
notes which are occasionally raised for accounting purposes.
The spreadsheet excludes VAT payments to customers for service
provision.
Some customers have more than one registration. The extraction in the
spreadsheet has been done by registered customer so the same customer
with different registrations will appear more than once on the
spreadsheet.
Those customers who receive payments in euros have been included in
the spreadsheet using the Sterling value applicable at the time of the
payment.

--------

APPENDIX - SCHEMES ADMINISTERED BY RPA

IACS and other farm based schemes dealt with by RPA for England:

Arable Schemes:

Arable Area Payments Scheme (AAPS) including Fibre Flax Subsidy and
Hemp Subsidy
Aid for Grain Legumes

Bovine Schemes:

Beef Special Premium Scheme (BSPS)
Suckler Cow Premium Scheme (SCPS), including decisions about suckler
cow quota
Extensification Payments Scheme (EPS)
Slaughter Premium Scheme (SPS), including Veal Calf Slaughter Premium

Sheep Schemes:

Sheep Annual Premium Scheme (SAPS), including the LFA Supplement and
decisions about sheep quota

Agrimonetary Compensation linked to any of the above schemes

England Rural Development Programme (ERDP), including the Hill Farm
Allowance Scheme (HFA).

Structural Funds:

The Structural Funds are a multi-funded EU programme. Defra is the
Managing Authority, RPA is the Paying Authority (responsible for
financial and accounting controls) and the Government Offices act as
the Intermediate Bodies (responsible for administration and
implementation).

RPA only pays under the Guidance element for schemes in Objective 1
regions and for Leader + schemes.

Non-IACS (i.e. CAP) schemes dealt with by RPA for the UK:

GENERAL
Aid for Concentrated Grape Must
Aid for Dehydrated Fodder
Apple Consumption Aid
Beef Information Programme
Butter for Manufacture
Butter for Non-Profit Making Organisations
Cane Sugar Refining Aid
Control of Casein in Cheese Making
Casein Production Subsidy
Citrus Processing Aid
Concentrated Butter for Direct Consumption
End Use Control of Certain Fruit and Vegetables
Fibres Processing Aid
Fish Carry-Over Aid
Fish Flat-Rate Aid
Fish Flat-Rate Premium
Fish Private Storage Aid
Fish Withdrawals Compensation
Fresh Fruit and Vegetables Withdrawals
Fruit and Vegetable Operational Programme
Fruit and Vegetable Producer Organisation Recognition
Grape Juice Aid
Herbage Seed Production Aid
Milk Quotas Scheme
Olive Oil Production Refunds
Over Thirty Months Scheme
Promotions to Internal Market
Promotions to Third Countries
School Milk Scheme
Selective Cull Scheme
Skimmed Milk Powder for Animal Feed
Starch for Prescribed End Users
Sugar and Isoglucose Production Levies
Sugar in the Chemical Industry

INTERVENTION PURCHASING SCHEMES
Cereals
Beef
Dairy

PRIVATE STORAGE AID SCHEMES
Dairy
Sheepmeat/Goatmeat
Pigmeat
Beef

SUGAR, OILS and STARCH
Cane Sugar Refining
End Use Control of Certain Vegetable Oils
Olive Oil Production
Production Refund on sugar used in the Chemical Industry
Starch Refunds - Cereals
Starch Refunds - Rice
Isoglucose Quotas and Production Levies
Sugar Quotas and Production Levies

EXTERNAL TRADE SCHEMES (including export refunds):
Bananas
Beef and Veal
Beef Import Tariff Quota
Cereals
Rice
Fish
Floriculture (live plants and flowers)
Fruit and Vegetables
Milk/Milk Products
Processed Goods (i.e products including two or more agricultural
products supported by the CAP).
Oils/Fats
Oilseeds/Seeds
Pigmeat
Eggs
Poultrymeat
Sheepmeat and Goatmeat
Sugar, Isoglucose and Insulin Syrup
Tobacco
Whisky refunds
Wine




Old Codger
2008-02-17 11:49:44 EST
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:36:36 +0000, Old Codger
<*r@hereNthereneverywhere.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:28:42 +0000, Julie <000@000.net> wrote:
>
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:27:27 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>>><jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:44:45 -0800 (PST), "OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Feb 15, 12:14 pm, Old Codger <Old.Cod...@hereNthereneverywhere.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> No other industry is subsidised so heavily for doing nothing as the
>>>>> farming industry. No wonder the country is in such a state.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/29dkrk
>>>>>
>>>>> £1BN THREAT TO DEFRA
>>>>> Date : 06.02.08
>>>>>
>>>>> An emergency Government summit will today decide the fate of vital
>>>>> rural agencies as Defra ministers grapple with a £1 billion budget
>>>>> crisis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Environment Secretary Hilary Benn will warn at the meeting that an
>>>>> initial wave of cutbacks has failed to secure enough savings and
>>>>> bosses will have to tighten their belts further.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wildlife projects, forest protection, recycling schemes and nature
>>>>> reserves are among those in the line of fire after huge overspends by
>>>>> the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Critics last night accused the Government itself of being responsible
>>>>> for the financial "meltdown" and urged Mr Benn to "get a grip". The
>>>>> Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission now face having to
>>>>> impose more multi-million-pound cuts. Natural England, which is
>>>>> responsible for nature reserves and crucial habitats, has been asked
>>>>> to save more than £12.5 million, and the Waste and Resources Action
>>>>> Programme (WRAP), charged with driving up levels of recycling, is
>>>>> expected to face cuts of 25 per cent. Compulsory redundancy notices
>>>>> are reported to have been sent to 30 members of its staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Expert staff and key conservation projects could be at risk, and
>>>>> spending on some of Britain's most important wildlife sites could also
>>>>> be reduced.
>>>>>
>>>>> The bungled payment of farm subsidies, including the Rural Payments
>>>>> Agency's disastrous single farm payments scheme, has cost Defra a
>>>>> fortune - some £348 million has been set aside for possible EU fines -
>>>>> and last summer's foot and mouth outbreak - which began when the virus
>>>>> leaked from a Government-sponsored laboratory - is set to cost another
>>>>> £48 million.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last month the WMN revealed that the number of bosses at Defra handed
>>>>> salaries of more than £100,000 has trebled in just five years, to 25.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shadow environment secretary Peter Ainsworth told the WMN yesterday:
>>>>> "Defra's finances have gone into meltdown and are threatening vital
>>>>> environmental services.
>>>>>
>>>>> "What makes it worse is that much of this mess is of the Government's
>>>>> own making," he said.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Costs associated with delays to single farm payments and the costs of
>>>>> the outbreak of FMD, which was caused by lack of biosecurity at a
>>>>> Government-licensed laboratory, have all added to this black hole.
>>>>> This is yet further evidence of a dysfunctional department.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hilary Benn needs to get a grip."
>>>>>
>>>>> Defra is reportedly still £100 million short, despite cuts which
>>>>> included compulsory redundancies at one agency. A package of cuts
>>>>> worth £1 billion over the next three years has now been drawn up and
>>>>> will be discussed today.
>>>>>
>>>>> In November Defra's top civil servant Helen Ghosh said she had asked
>>>>> staff to identify savings of £270 million in response to new demands
>>>>> set out in Chancellor Alistair Darling's three-year spending plans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Appearing before the Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
>>>>> Select Committee, Permanent Secretary Ms Ghosh admitted that her
>>>>> department was on course to overshoot its budget this year by £115
>>>>> million.
>>>>>
>>>>> She said £65 million of that was due to unexpected emergencies such as
>>>>> flooding and outbreaks of foot and mouth disease, bluetongue and avian
>>>>> influenza, but the other £50 million came on top of the department's
>>>>> day-to-day administration budget of £269 million.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ministers will today discuss the extent of the cutbacks. Discussions
>>>>> are expected to focus on either ditching whole projects or
>>>>> "salami-slicing" all areas of spending.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Defra spokesman said the budget would be finalised early this year.
>>>>>
>>>>> "No final decisions on budget allocations have been reached," he
>>>>> added. "Defra, like all government departments, must ensure spending
>>>>> is in pursuit of our aims and priorities and gives best value for
>>>>> money for the taxpayer.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Budgets for 2008-09 are currently being considered by ministers with
>>>>> the aim of being finalised in early 2008."
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the Liberal Democrats' environment spokesman, Steve Webb,
>>>>> claimed that the Defra budget had been "in chaos for years".
>>>>>
>>>>> He went on: "The proposed cuts will have a devastating impact for
>>>>> agencies funded by the department, and ministers will now have to
>>>>> decide whether to cut some services completely.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It is unacceptable if work on vital issues such as climate change,
>>>>> recycling and wildlife protection will take a huge hit," said Mr Webb.
>>>>>
>>>>> He pointed to figures which show that Defra has spent more than £1
>>>>> billion on hiring in management consultants, IT specialists and
>>>>> temporary staff in the past five years.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It must put its own house in order before it makes cuts in
>>>>> much-needed environmental protection work," he said.
>>>>
>>>>How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?
>
>>>Too late, there are no production subsidies for food production, all there
>>>is is for environment and some support for organic
>
>>>Jim Webster
>
>>Not quite true Jimmy. Milk quotas are huge business and attract vast
>>handouts. crop and livestock payments are just as beneficial as they
>>have ever been, allowing many farmers to live just for the handout
>>which is all wrong.
>>
>>To claim there are no handouts in livestock farming is a blatant lie.
>>http://www.rpa.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/home
>
>Jim actually lives on handouts for livestock farming himself.
>
>They are wrong and crippling the industry
>
>http://www.yrtk.org/2005/england-farm-subsidies-online/
>
>No wonder he's ashamed to admit it.
>

If you look closely enough here you just might see who gets what on
UBA http://tinyurl.com/3b7wx6


Jim Webster
2008-02-18 02:29:51 EST

"rbel" <rbel@rbel1.plus.com> wrote in message
news:ErT8$kKXpIuHFw0Y@rbel1.plus.com...
> In message <f5ogr3d369lj4t7suj08c2cpi236eui1vm@4ax.com>, Julie
> <000@000.net> writes
>>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:27:27 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>><jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"OM SHIVA!108" <grimus108@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:af659811-7d33-44b5-badd-8e2069972e6d@j28g2000hsj.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>How about ending all non organic and animal farming subsidies?
>>>
>>>Too late, there are no production subsidies for food production, all
>>>there
>>>is is for environment and some support for organic
>>
>>Not quite true Jimmy. Milk quotas are huge business and attract vast
>>handouts. crop and livestock payments are just as beneficial as they
>>have ever been, allowing many farmers to live just for the handout
>>which is all wrong.
>>

do catch up with the real world
http://www.ipaquotas.co.uk

current quota leasing price is 1p per litre, perhaps you would explain how
someone with half a million litres could live on this 'handout'.
Especially as the regulations state that someone who isn't milking cows has
to get rid of their quota after the end on at the most two years without
producing milk


>>To claim there are no handouts in livestock farming is a blatant lie.
>>http://www.rpa.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/home
>
yes, all decoupled from production, these are environmental payments policed
by the cross compliance inspection regime.

None of it is for food production (you do know what decoupled means don't
you)

If you want to comment on agriculture it would be nice if you were no more
than five years out of date.
Just as a hint, Wheat isn't \ufffd60 a tonne any more and is nearer \ufffd180
depending on how well you buy it.
Also just as a hint, watch this coming years harvest figures.
If we have a world wheat crop of under 620 million tonnes, (consumption but
with no provision for restocking) then the price will go up again with a
bang, if we have a world wheat crop of over 640 million tonnes, then the
price might drift down a little, if it is between the two figures then it
might go up or down a touch but should be stable.
Basically we have to watch out for 'weather events' and play it by ear.
At the moment wheat can alter $38.50 a tonne in a day on the exchanges



Jim Webster



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