Vegetarian Discussion: Climate Change: The Return Of Swampy........

Climate Change: The Return Of Swampy........
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Gloria
2007-08-20 02:51:11 EST
In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
still prepared to do our fighting for us.

GO SWAMPY GO


http://environment.independent.co.uk/climate_change/article2876542.ece

The return of Swampy: Underground eco-hero joins the Heathrow protest
Campaigners say they will start direct action against the proposed
third runway at noon today – with help from the original green rebel.
Jonathan Owen reports
Published: 19 August 2007
The talking is over. The plans have been made. The mass direct action
promised by the environmentalists camping near the perimeter of
Heathrow airport will take place from noon today, they promised
yesterday – although nobody could rule out a maverick group going off
to chain itself to something in the meantime.

Six people were arrested on suspicion of burglary after apparently
breaking into the warehouse of a fruit importer, and police linked the
break-in to the Camp for Climate Action. Protests would take place
around the airport, a camp spokesman said. Some would be big, some
small. "We are still seeing people arriving," he said. "There are
about 1,200 here."

Among them was a veteran of former campaigns, keeping his head down
and his fame hidden. Swampy became a household name in 1996, after one
of a series of protests against road developments pitted green
campaigners against the police for the first time. Some tied
themselves to trees but Swampy stayed underground in tunnels for a
week like a human mole. And when he emerged, blinking into the light,
he became a media star.

Daniel Hooper, to give him his real name, was articulate and
passionate. He had a cheeky charm and was even prepared to endure
makeovers and appearances on television programmes like Have I Got
News For You to make his point. But then he disappeared from the
public gaze.

Now 33 years old and a father of three, it seems the original
eco-warrior has been unable to resist the lure of the climate camp and
the biggest environmental stand-off in years. But Swampy's acceptance
by the community on site appears to have been dependent on his
maintaining a low profile. Visitors are definitely not welcome. "We
don't want everyone coming down here and looking at us just because
Swampy is with us,"said one camp member yesterday. "He hasn't changed
really, but he wants to be left alone now."

The secrecy about the long-planned action has been so tight that even
regular protesters claim not to know exactly what would take place.
There were long and sometimes heated discussions about what to do, in
a community that has chosen to have no leaders and make all its
decisions by consensus. But another of the many camp spokespeople
said: "The time has now come for civil society to engage in civil
disobedience – and that's what will happen tomorrow."

Ben Healey was responding to a call from airline pilots for the
protesters to meet them in "peace talks". Captain Mervyn Granshaw,
chairman of the British Air Line Pilots Association, said: "We would
like to come to a common understanding about carbon dioxide emissions
from aircraft." And he added: "Aircraft are minor polluters, air
travel is not the fastest-growing source of emissions and most
flights, compared with other transport modes, are green."

The campers totally disagree, of course. They have been listening to
serious seminars on the subject at the camp all week, from the likes
of George Monbiot and Tony Juniper, and reject the pilots' claims.
"We're more than happy to discuss the science of climate change with
anybody," said Mr Healey, "but right now we're caught up planning for
tomorrow's direct action. After the camp is over we will meet them."

Walking towards the Heathrow climate camp yesterday felt like
approaching a musical festival, but for the heavy police presence.
Families with toddlers, elderly locals and even foreign tourists were
also making their way there. Organic food was being cooked using wind,
sun or biofuel at the centre of each of the tented neighbourhoods
formed in the camp.

No detail had been left to chance, from the provision of
environmentally friendly toilets to timetabled daily meetings and
workshops. In one tent a group of protesters listened avidly to a
lecture on climate change, while just next door another group
rehearsed ways of resisting the police. They could be seen being
dragged across the floor while seated, in preparation for a sit-down
protest.

Somebody at the entrance to the camp handed me a card warning me not
to give my name and address to the police. "This [the camp] is the
fluffy stuff," he said. "There are other things be.ng planned for
tomorrow." Yesterday evening the police presence was starting to
escalate, with the appearance of more of the 1,800 extra officers and
negotiations being held with camp organisers.

All the while, police intelligence teams and protesters were busy
taking pictures of one another. A pair of community support officers
were surrounded and taunted by 20 activists dressed as clowns, to the
amusement of onlookers.

While most people were insisting their demonstration would be
peaceful, would not endanger life and were aimed at the authorities
rather than travellers, one tent was emblazoned with the words "Fuck
Civil, let's get disobedience". There were rumours that to escape a
possible police blockade some protesters had already left and would
use it as a decoy. The actions being talked about in the camp ranged
from mass sit-ins to office occupations by suit-wearing protesters,
people chaining or gluing themselves to gates and doors. Organisers
had previously boasted that campaigners will "lay siege" to BAA's
nearby headquarters.

Stephen Milligan, another spokesman, said: "We will all descend on
BAA's corporate offices and besiege them for as long we can. This is
meant to target the corporate criminals that are behind the airport
expansion. If the runway goes ahead we will have runaway climate
change which will result in millions of deaths around the world."

He added: "This is about building a movement for change and this is
just the beginning."

Police have warned that any direct action would be seen as a security
threat and could disrupt thousands of airport passengers and staff.
They have been dealing with protesters under counter-terrorism laws,
which allow them to stop and search and hold people without charge.

When residents from the surrounding villages of Harlington, Sipson and
Harmondsworth first heard that a massive climate camp was to be
pitched at Heathrow airport, where they have spent years campaigning
against controversial developments, they were delighted. If a third
runway and an accompanying sixth terminal (as has been mooted) is
built, the number of flights every year will rise from 473,000 to
710,000. But existing flights already pump 31 million tons of CO2 into
the atmosphere. The consultation on the plan begins next month.

Christine Taylor, a resident of Sipson and vice-chairman of NoTRAG (No
Third Runway Action Group), which has been leading the local campaign
for five years, welcomed the extra attention but was also worried that
illegal action could harm years of good work. "This group was
virtually unknown to us until very recently," she said. "We only heard
of the climate camp really when they decided to come to the area, so
an awful lot has had to be taken on trust. If that trust is misplaced
and there is some sort of serious disruption and illegal acts these
could jeopardise our own campaign for ever."

And Mrs Taylor warned that "illegal action may end up affecting local
campaigners, not just the activists who are passing through. You stand
the risk of being involved with people associated with direct action
and being tarred with the same brush."

Swampy travelled to Heathrow last week from Tipi Valley, a new-age
commune close to the village of Abergorlech, north of Carmarthen in
west Wales. Friends in the commune explained that he had embraced the
battle to stop airport expansion. "I doubt he will get into trouble,"
one said. "He will keep his head down, but he still cares about the
environment. He still has his principles but he just doesn't shout
about them like he used to. I would bet that most people don't even
know who he is, and he probably won't tell them."

Swampy tries to be as self-sufficient as possible at home in Wales, in
a community where there is no electricity or running water. His tent
complex, which he shares with his partner and their three children, is
in an isolated area reached by a footpath half a mile long. The family
grow most of their own food, wash in a nearby stream and use an
eco-loo.

"I wouldn't swap places with anyone," he reportedly said recently.
"There's no crime, no noise and no pollution. We don't have any
mortgage or bills to pay, so life is great." Swampy said he will a
remain a free spirit, but added: "I'm older now and I've mellowed."


Broadback
2007-08-20 03:05:57 EST
Gloria wrote:
> In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
> still prepared to do our fighting for us.
>
Snip
Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
a) there is global warming
b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.

Gloria
2007-08-20 03:24:58 EST
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:05:57 +0100, Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com>
wrote:

>Gloria wrote:
>> In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
>> still prepared to do our fighting for us.
>>
>Snip
>Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>a) there is global warming
>b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
>c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
>Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.

If you honestly think our modern lifestyle is not seriously harming
the planet then you need to get out more and see what's happening.

If you're not worried about yourself, worry about your kids.

'Mike'
2007-08-20 03:28:26 EST


"Gloria" <letsstandup2bullies@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2agic3t8988h38hrco6hlmcborjcdoo8l4@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:05:57 +0100, Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Gloria wrote:
>>> In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
>>> still prepared to do our fighting for us.
>>>
>>Snip
>>Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>>protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>>a) there is global warming
>>b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
>>c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
>>Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>>tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
>
> If you honestly think our modern lifestyle is not seriously harming
> the planet then you need to get out more and see what's happening.
>
> If you're not worried about yourself, worry about your kids.

If you HONESTLY believe that man can do ANYTHING to alter this planet, then
you will believe the Moon is made of Green Cheese and you will carry on
wasting your time, other people's time and their money :-(

Mike


--
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
Reunion Bournemouth August/September 2007 FULL. WAIT LIST OPERATING
www.rneba.org.uk
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand




Robert Seago
2007-08-20 03:57:28 EST
In article <5issrhF3psq7jU1@mid.individual.net>,
Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com> wrote:

> Snip
> Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
> protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
> a) there is global warming
Most of the media hype has been on the other side. This was the
overriding publicity for over 30 years. There is extensive data for a
period of several hundred years that demonstrate a warning steady until
somewhere around 1910 and then upturning, giving it a hockey stick
profile. Even the CCC acknowledge the actual warming.

The much quoted medieval warm spell was not global, just northern Europe.
The cooling for a time after the second world war is usually understood to
be the result of particulate pollution mostly sulphates.
> b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
the fact of more CO2 in the atmosphere building year on year is not
disputed, it is monitored in Hawaii.

Extra CO2 from whatever source will produce a greenhouse effect from
whatever source.

> c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
I am old enough to remember the prediction of these effects before they
were measurable. The vested interests at that time denied any effect.
Indeed with the cooling of the fifties it was easy to brush it aside.

While the science behind this is not complete, there is steadily more and
more data which suggests that the deposition of more and more CO2 is
causing the more energetically charged atmosphere which will lead to more
turbulent and thus unpredictable climate.
> Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
> tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
Short term local details are likely always to be the most difficult to
predict.

You talk of media hype. Are you not embarrased by the Channel 4
documentary. Would you not think they could put forward an anti case
without misquoting a scientist on there and without hiding the public
domain data which completely opposed their central thesis that sunspots
were in some way able to explain the warming, a fact incidentally which
they did not seek to deny.

--
Regards from Bob Seago: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago/

Robert Seago
2007-08-20 04:00:30 EST
In article <oJ6dnWFUre8B31TbnZ2dnUVZ8qminZ2d@bt.com>,
'Mike' <3d&6d@woolies.com> wrote:


> If you HONESTLY believe that man can do ANYTHING to alter this planet,
> then you will believe the Moon is made of Green Cheese
Man has ever since his first emergence altered his habitat, hence his
success.

> and you will
> carry on wasting your time,
the counsel of despair
> other people's time and their money :-(
are there money, now there's the rub.

--
Regards from Bob Seago: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago/

Gloria
2007-08-20 04:35:15 EST
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:28:26 +0100, "'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com>
wrote:

>
>
>"Gloria" <letsstandup2bullies@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:2agic3t8988h38hrco6hlmcborjcdoo8l4@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:05:57 +0100, Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Gloria wrote:
>>>> In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
>>>> still prepared to do our fighting for us.
>>>>
>>>Snip
>>>Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>>>protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>>>a) there is global warming
>>>b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
>>>c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
>>>Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>>>tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
>>
>> If you honestly think our modern lifestyle is not seriously harming
>> the planet then you need to get out more and see what's happening.
>>
>> If you're not worried about yourself, worry about your kids.
>
>If you HONESTLY believe that man can do ANYTHING to alter this planet,

YOU can make a difference, and without much effort, so why not?



'Mike'
2007-08-20 04:43:37 EST



"Gloria" <letsstandup2bullies@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8gkic3p5bs6jpdh2hjiovt24lp0pgpmi3f@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:28:26 +0100, "'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Gloria" <letsstandup2bullies@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:2agic3t8988h38hrco6hlmcborjcdoo8l4@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:05:57 +0100, Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Gloria wrote:
>>>>> In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
>>>>> still prepared to do our fighting for us.
>>>>>
>>>>Snip
>>>>Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>>>>protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>>>>a) there is global warming
>>>>b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
>>>>c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
>>>>Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>>>>tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
>>>
>>> If you honestly think our modern lifestyle is not seriously harming
>>> the planet then you need to get out more and see what's happening.
>>>
>>> If you're not worried about yourself, worry about your kids.
>>
>>If you HONESTLY believe that man can do ANYTHING to alter this planet,
>
> YOU can make a difference, and without much effort, so why not?
>
>

The planet can look after itself no matter what man does. The planet will be
here long after man has gone.

Man's efforts or lifestyle now has NOTHING to do with what happens to the
planet. You are all just a bunch of timewasters and your time could be put
to a lot better use.

This earth has been here for a reputed thirty six thousand million years.
Man has been here for about ten seconds and will last a few more, then? The
planet will just wave bye bye and get on with what it knows best, existing.

And if you cannot see that, then you really do believe the moon is made of
green cheese and live in cuckoo land.

Mike
Living in the real world which will outlast him :-)


--
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
Reunion Bournemouth August/September 2007 FULL. WAIT LIST OPERATING
www.rneba.org.uk
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand



Broadback
2007-08-20 06:08:16 EST
Robert Seago wrote:
> In article <5issrhF3psq7jU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> Snip
>> Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>> protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>> a) there is global warming
> Most of the media hype has been on the other side. This was the
> overriding publicity for over 30 years. There is extensive data for a
> period of several hundred years that demonstrate a warning steady until
> somewhere around 1910 and then upturning, giving it a hockey stick
> profile. Even the CCC acknowledge the actual warming.
>
> The much quoted medieval warm spell was not global, just northern Europe.
> The cooling for a time after the second world war is usually understood to
> be the result of particulate pollution mostly sulphates.
>> b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
> the fact of more CO2 in the atmosphere building year on year is not
> disputed, it is monitored in Hawaii.
>
> Extra CO2 from whatever source will produce a greenhouse effect from
> whatever source.
>
>> c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
> I am old enough to remember the prediction of these effects before they
> were measurable. The vested interests at that time denied any effect.
> Indeed with the cooling of the fifties it was easy to brush it aside.
>
> While the science behind this is not complete, there is steadily more and
> more data which suggests that the deposition of more and more CO2 is
> causing the more energetically charged atmosphere which will lead to more
> turbulent and thus unpredictable climate.
>> Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>> tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
> Short term local details are likely always to be the most difficult to
> predict.
>
> You talk of media hype. Are you not embarrased by the Channel 4
> documentary. Would you not think they could put forward an anti case
> without misquoting a scientist on there and without hiding the public
> domain data which completely opposed their central thesis that sunspots
> were in some way able to explain the warming, a fact incidentally which
> they did not seek to deny.
>
Perhaps you should do a little research of your own, not rely on the
media. I have, and I am not convinced that there is global warming, even
if there is that is is caused by man. Look up the facts about the ice on
this planet, then look up the temperatures of Antarctica. Plenty more
facts if you look for them that do not point to global warming. Also
why do the global warming lobby ignore the sun's output, surely that has
the biggest effect on our climate? If it is warming Mars then maybe it
is warming the Earth.

Barb
2007-08-20 07:42:46 EST

"Broadback" <wen@towill.plus.com> wrote in message
news:5it7hcF3rm2tnU1@mid.individual.net...
> Robert Seago wrote:
>> In article <5issrhF3psq7jU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Broadback <wen@towill.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Snip
>>> Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
>>> protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
>>> a) there is global warming
>> Most of the media hype has been on the other side. This was the
>> overriding publicity for over 30 years. There is extensive data for a
>> period of several hundred years that demonstrate a warning steady until
>> somewhere around 1910 and then upturning, giving it a hockey stick
>> profile. Even the CCC acknowledge the actual warming.
>>
>> The much quoted medieval warm spell was not global, just northern Europe.
>> The cooling for a time after the second world war is usually understood
>> to
>> be the result of particulate pollution mostly sulphates.
>>> b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
>> the fact of more CO2 in the atmosphere building year on year is not
>> disputed, it is monitored in Hawaii.
>>
>> Extra CO2 from whatever source will produce a greenhouse effect from
>> whatever source.
>>
>>> c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
>> I am old enough to remember the prediction of these effects before they
>> were measurable. The vested interests at that time denied any effect.
>> Indeed with the cooling of the fifties it was easy to brush it aside.
>>
>> While the science behind this is not complete, there is steadily more and
>> more data which suggests that the deposition of more and more CO2 is
>> causing the more energetically charged atmosphere which will lead to more
>> turbulent and thus unpredictable climate.
>>> Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
>>> tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
>> Short term local details are likely always to be the most difficult to
>> predict.
>>
>> You talk of media hype. Are you not embarrased by the Channel 4
>> documentary. Would you not think they could put forward an anti case
>> without misquoting a scientist on there and without hiding the public
>> domain data which completely opposed their central thesis that sunspots
>> were in some way able to explain the warming, a fact incidentally which
>> they did not seek to deny.
>>
> Perhaps you should do a little research of your own, not rely on the
> media. I have, and I am not convinced that there is global warming, even
> if there is that is is caused by man. Look up the facts about the ice on
> this planet, then look up the temperatures of Antarctica. Plenty more
> facts if you look for them that do not point to global warming. Also why
> do the global warming lobby ignore the sun's output, surely that has the
> biggest effect on our climate? If it is warming Mars then maybe it is
> warming the Earth.




The climate is changing - no argument - it does. Regularly. Our input is
debatable. Research goes both ways.

However, this is a really, really good way of:
(a) getting a consensus of some kind in reducing consumption of diminishing
resources
(b) trying to maintain the existing world economic status quo, dominated by
comfortable USA/Europe

If "they" - the powers that be - were *serious* about "global warming", why
are we still being allowed to waste water, electricity, food, etc. every
day? Why are we still advertising petro/diesel cars all over the place,
manufacturing and dumping thousands a day? Why are not huge amounts being
invested in public transport to diminish their use? Why is the recycling
effort so pathetic? Why are we still obviously a society of conspicuous
consumption driven by fashion? I could go on .... It doesn't make sense.

If there were *real* conviction about a potential extinction event
(...because that is what is being hyped!...), and our ability to prevent it,
I am sure that we would at least be seeing the glimmerings of beginnings of
genuine and serious imposition of real change in the way we are allowed to
live. And we're not - just a lot of hot air and silly arguments about the
"carbon footprint" of eating meat, for Chrissake!

If I were not allowed to plan a leisure trip to Australia ....buy more than
one car every five years/have my petrol rationed....be fined for every
plastic container I put in the dustbin, and see every supermarket taxed for
every one they use...find it was vastly more expensive to fly on a business
trip from London to Glasgow than catch the train, not considerably cheaper!
....be made to buy energy-saving bulbs instead of whole clusters of
attractive light fittings .....pay more for beans from Africa than
Shropshire, not less .....again, I could go on.

And, of course, there are quite a few people making serious money,
reputations and careers out of all this. It's not sexy or professional to
question it.

Barb (cynic)









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