Dog Discussion: Discipline

Discipline
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The Puppy Wizard
2004-02-02 18:46:38 EST
HOWEDY EEng,

>From: EEng (unmaileeng@budget.net)
>Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME
>Date: 2003-11-12 09:30:14 PST
>

>On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:59:21 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
><ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>HOWEDY People,
>>
>>Livin beings were not designed to suffer
>>constant intermittent stress of physical
>>and emotional threat withHOWET goin
>>into full fight or flight mode.
>>
>>Most "traditional" training and behavior
>>management to teach dogs and children
>>etc. to BE NICE, causes emotional conflict
>>and stresses the organism PHYSICALLY.
>>
>>Stress hormones are released to engage
>>the fight or flight INSTINCT.
>>
>>Just tellin the dog or child "NO!" a few times a
>>day is enough to push them over the goddamned
>>edge into physical or emotional DIS-EASE.
>>
>>The medical community labels these conditions
>>as ADHD, ADD, ODD, OCD, and lots of other
>>dHOWEBLETALK in an effort to diagnose the
>>DIS-ORDER and lay BLAME for the problem
>>of HOWETA CONTROL children and dogs.

>Everything you state above has been said before by
>many noted child psychologists and is in fact at the
>cornerstone of "causality effect" (Dr. Joyce Brothers,
>Dr Barbara DeAngelis, Dr. Norman Siskont to name
>a few). I see no reason it wouldn't apply to animals
>as well.

It's all the same same same same, kids, dogs,
spHOWESES, all the same same.

>>These SYMPTOMS are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

>They state these symptoms are caused by "inappropriate
>response to undesirable behavior"

Right, like when we scold a dog or child for doin
sumpthin BAD.

>>The organism CANNOT expiate the stress
>>hormones through BEING NICE, they GOT
>>to be RELIEVED through FIGHT or FLIGHT.

>Dr. Siskont wrote in an AMA technical whitepaper presented at
>the AMA National Conference in Denver, CO June 1996 that we
>are drugging our children into submission and inventing
>diseases to justify it.

The body invents DIS-EASES in response to those stresses.

> Among the first was ADD, Attention Deficit Disorder.
> BULLSHIT...the kid just simply doesn't pay attention!
> It's not that he can't pay attention, it's that he's had no
> education whatsoever in how to pay attention, to
> concentrate, to keep his mind on his work.

RIGHT. Those are LEARNED qualities. And you\
can't learn to concentrate if you're anxiHOWES.

>That's not something that comes naturally, its
>something that's taught, and has failed to be
>taught for too many years. He's had a life of
>extreme leniency with excuses made for him.

No. There's nuthin that bein lienient is gonna
LHOWES UP. It's the intermittent negative
interactions or neglect, that cause opposition
and DIS-EASE.

>One of my many activities is as a volunteer in the Boy Scouts,
>in which I teach Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Child
>Abuse Prevention. I firmly believe that all these anagramed
>diseases are cop outs to point to normal reactionary behavior
>caused by abnormal environment, specifically by "inappropriate
>response to undesirable behavior" brought about by a more or
>less misinformed generation of child raisers.

Right. But in your work with scouts you're working
as a leader, teaching respect and discipline by
demonstrated self example, not force.

>While spare the rod and spoil the child is definitely true,

That reference regards to GUIDANCE, not punishment.
The rod is used to GUIDE, not BEAT the animals, unlike
it's use HERE by melanie chang and Master Of Deception
blankman and their ilk who BEAT their dogs in the face
with their shepherd's crooks so they don't ATTACK the
sheep. Unless they're doin a sheep herding clinic, then
they can beat the sheep till it's nose gets bloodied and
everyWON will say the sheep didn't get hurt...

>laws have been enacted to make illegal, almost every form
>of discipline a parent might exercise.

We've got to teach parents better methods
and criminalize ALL punishment and punish
the abusers. Hmm.... that's a contradiction,
ain't it.

I guess we gotta TEACH the parents and EXXXPOSE
the TEACHERS we got like professor SCRUFF SHAKE
who CAUSE these problems and PUNISH THEM.

Ooops!

Perhaps we'll just EDUCATE J.Q. Pubic and warn
them of the DIS-EASES we can contract from listening
to university behaviorists. And THEN punish them if
they should ever try to DEFEND themselves.

Perhaps THAT'S HOWE COME professor SCRUFF
SHAKE and his ilk won't DIS-CUSS BUSINESS with
The Puppy Wizard.

> These laws were originally intended to stop abuse,

You're missing the point, EEng. If appupriate methods
are USED you won't NEED ineffective inapupriate
methods as a LAST RESORT, cause after THAT,
comes a life of misery abuse and incarceration
and it continues generation after generation. "The
son of a slave, is a slave," A Creole Expression.

> but they've gone too far and now we see the flip side.....

No. What we're SEEING are the RESULTS of
HOWER EXXXPERT behaviorists who TEACH
us to scruff shake and punish and lock dogs and
children in boxes and ignore their cries so we
don't SPOIL them.

> a few generations of kids that are born into a
> world where they have no responsibility, culpability,
>or liability for any of their actions.

NO, EEng. That's what JUSTIFIES abuse.

>Their parents take all blame,

There's NO BLAME for all this, it's HOWE we've
been TAUGHT. If you wanna BLAME anyWON
let's BLAME the univeristy trained behaivorists
who jerk and choke and shock and bribe and
punish and allHOWE dogs and children to
EXXXPERIENCE their CONSEQUENCES.

> and are allowed no latitude for discipline,

Webster's defines discipline as TEACHING
by LEADING, not BEATING.

> and from first hand experience as a Scoutmaster
> for 28 years I can say with absolute conviction that
> all children desire a certain amount of discipline as
> moral and social guidelines and that without it,

Of curse. But scruff shaking insulting tormenting
denial and bribery are not discipleship.

> they revert to an almost feral state in regards to
> their ability to integrate with society.

That's cause they're repressed, not cause they're
given TOO MUCH freedom. Like Adam & Eve,
they had it ALL except WON SMALL THING that
they didn't even NEED or know nuthin abHOWET,
till they took the opportunity when the boss's back
was turned, to break the WON "NO!" that they had...

>There are ways to enforce discipline without creating
>abusive conditions.

Right. Perhaps that lesson from the Bible would
teach us not to tell HOWER dogs "NO!" if we
don't want them to steal HOWER stuff soon as
we turn HOWER backs.

The fastest way to get a dog or child to take
sumpthin IT ain't supposed to have is to tell
him he can't have it... and give him free will
and turn your back.

>>Constantly stressing the adrenals etc CAUSES
>>debilitating life threatening DIS-EASE, as seen
>>in MOST of HOWER dog lover's dogs with every
>>DIS-EASE condition from urinary tract crystals
>>and irritable bHOWEL DIS-EASE *(professor
>>SCRUFF SHAKE'S dog Maxie The Magnificent
>>FuriHOWESLY Obsessive Compulsive Masturbator)
>>to seizures, the cushings/addison's degenerative
>>myopathies and myalgias, glaucoma, progressive
>>BLINDNESS *(cate and her dog Orson), and much
>>much MOORE, even dental DIS-EASE.
>>
>>That's The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.
>>
>>The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >




JMS
2004-02-03 19:51:39 EST
Do you not speak English?

"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yjBTb.6883$jH6.5493@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> HOWEDY EEng,
>
> >From: EEng (unmaileeng@budget.net)
> >Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME
> >Date: 2003-11-12 09:30:14 PST
> >
>
> >On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:59:21 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
> ><ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>HOWEDY People,
> >>
> >>Livin beings were not designed to suffer
> >>constant intermittent stress of physical
> >>and emotional threat withHOWET goin
> >>into full fight or flight mode.
> >>
> >>Most "traditional" training and behavior
> >>management to teach dogs and children
> >>etc. to BE NICE, causes emotional conflict
> >>and stresses the organism PHYSICALLY.
> >>
> >>Stress hormones are released to engage
> >>the fight or flight INSTINCT.
> >>
> >>Just tellin the dog or child "NO!" a few times a
> >>day is enough to push them over the goddamned
> >>edge into physical or emotional DIS-EASE.
> >>
> >>The medical community labels these conditions
> >>as ADHD, ADD, ODD, OCD, and lots of other
> >>dHOWEBLETALK in an effort to diagnose the
> >>DIS-ORDER and lay BLAME for the problem
> >>of HOWETA CONTROL children and dogs.
>
> >Everything you state above has been said before by
> >many noted child psychologists and is in fact at the
> >cornerstone of "causality effect" (Dr. Joyce Brothers,
> >Dr Barbara DeAngelis, Dr. Norman Siskont to name
> >a few). I see no reason it wouldn't apply to animals
> >as well.
>
> It's all the same same same same, kids, dogs,
> spHOWESES, all the same same.
>
> >>These SYMPTOMS are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
>
> >They state these symptoms are caused by "inappropriate
> >response to undesirable behavior"
>
> Right, like when we scold a dog or child for doin
> sumpthin BAD.
>
> >>The organism CANNOT expiate the stress
> >>hormones through BEING NICE, they GOT
> >>to be RELIEVED through FIGHT or FLIGHT.
>
> >Dr. Siskont wrote in an AMA technical whitepaper presented at
> >the AMA National Conference in Denver, CO June 1996 that we
> >are drugging our children into submission and inventing
> >diseases to justify it.
>
> The body invents DIS-EASES in response to those stresses.
>
> > Among the first was ADD, Attention Deficit Disorder.
> > BULLSHIT...the kid just simply doesn't pay attention!
> > It's not that he can't pay attention, it's that he's had no
> > education whatsoever in how to pay attention, to
> > concentrate, to keep his mind on his work.
>
> RIGHT. Those are LEARNED qualities. And you\
> can't learn to concentrate if you're anxiHOWES.
>
> >That's not something that comes naturally, its
> >something that's taught, and has failed to be
> >taught for too many years. He's had a life of
> >extreme leniency with excuses made for him.
>
> No. There's nuthin that bein lienient is gonna
> LHOWES UP. It's the intermittent negative
> interactions or neglect, that cause opposition
> and DIS-EASE.
>
> >One of my many activities is as a volunteer in the Boy Scouts,
> >in which I teach Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Child
> >Abuse Prevention. I firmly believe that all these anagramed
> >diseases are cop outs to point to normal reactionary behavior
> >caused by abnormal environment, specifically by "inappropriate
> >response to undesirable behavior" brought about by a more or
> >less misinformed generation of child raisers.
>
> Right. But in your work with scouts you're working
> as a leader, teaching respect and discipline by
> demonstrated self example, not force.
>
> >While spare the rod and spoil the child is definitely true,
>
> That reference regards to GUIDANCE, not punishment.
> The rod is used to GUIDE, not BEAT the animals, unlike
> it's use HERE by melanie chang and Master Of Deception
> blankman and their ilk who BEAT their dogs in the face
> with their shepherd's crooks so they don't ATTACK the
> sheep. Unless they're doin a sheep herding clinic, then
> they can beat the sheep till it's nose gets bloodied and
> everyWON will say the sheep didn't get hurt...
>
> >laws have been enacted to make illegal, almost every form
> >of discipline a parent might exercise.
>
> We've got to teach parents better methods
> and criminalize ALL punishment and punish
> the abusers. Hmm.... that's a contradiction,
> ain't it.
>
> I guess we gotta TEACH the parents and EXXXPOSE
> the TEACHERS we got like professor SCRUFF SHAKE
> who CAUSE these problems and PUNISH THEM.
>
> Ooops!
>
> Perhaps we'll just EDUCATE J.Q. Pubic and warn
> them of the DIS-EASES we can contract from listening
> to university behaviorists. And THEN punish them if
> they should ever try to DEFEND themselves.
>
> Perhaps THAT'S HOWE COME professor SCRUFF
> SHAKE and his ilk won't DIS-CUSS BUSINESS with
> The Puppy Wizard.
>
> > These laws were originally intended to stop abuse,
>
> You're missing the point, EEng. If appupriate methods
> are USED you won't NEED ineffective inapupriate
> methods as a LAST RESORT, cause after THAT,
> comes a life of misery abuse and incarceration
> and it continues generation after generation. "The
> son of a slave, is a slave," A Creole Expression.
>
> > but they've gone too far and now we see the flip side.....
>
> No. What we're SEEING are the RESULTS of
> HOWER EXXXPERT behaviorists who TEACH
> us to scruff shake and punish and lock dogs and
> children in boxes and ignore their cries so we
> don't SPOIL them.
>
> > a few generations of kids that are born into a
> > world where they have no responsibility, culpability,
> >or liability for any of their actions.
>
> NO, EEng. That's what JUSTIFIES abuse.
>
> >Their parents take all blame,
>
> There's NO BLAME for all this, it's HOWE we've
> been TAUGHT. If you wanna BLAME anyWON
> let's BLAME the univeristy trained behaivorists
> who jerk and choke and shock and bribe and
> punish and allHOWE dogs and children to
> EXXXPERIENCE their CONSEQUENCES.
>
> > and are allowed no latitude for discipline,
>
> Webster's defines discipline as TEACHING
> by LEADING, not BEATING.
>
> > and from first hand experience as a Scoutmaster
> > for 28 years I can say with absolute conviction that
> > all children desire a certain amount of discipline as
> > moral and social guidelines and that without it,
>
> Of curse. But scruff shaking insulting tormenting
> denial and bribery are not discipleship.
>
> > they revert to an almost feral state in regards to
> > their ability to integrate with society.
>
> That's cause they're repressed, not cause they're
> given TOO MUCH freedom. Like Adam & Eve,
> they had it ALL except WON SMALL THING that
> they didn't even NEED or know nuthin abHOWET,
> till they took the opportunity when the boss's back
> was turned, to break the WON "NO!" that they had...
>
> >There are ways to enforce discipline without creating
> >abusive conditions.
>
> Right. Perhaps that lesson from the Bible would
> teach us not to tell HOWER dogs "NO!" if we
> don't want them to steal HOWER stuff soon as
> we turn HOWER backs.
>
> The fastest way to get a dog or child to take
> sumpthin IT ain't supposed to have is to tell
> him he can't have it... and give him free will
> and turn your back.
>
> >>Constantly stressing the adrenals etc CAUSES
> >>debilitating life threatening DIS-EASE, as seen
> >>in MOST of HOWER dog lover's dogs with every
> >>DIS-EASE condition from urinary tract crystals
> >>and irritable bHOWEL DIS-EASE *(professor
> >>SCRUFF SHAKE'S dog Maxie The Magnificent
> >>FuriHOWESLY Obsessive Compulsive Masturbator)
> >>to seizures, the cushings/addison's degenerative
> >>myopathies and myalgias, glaucoma, progressive
> >>BLINDNESS *(cate and her dog Orson), and much
> >>much MOORE, even dental DIS-EASE.
> >>
> >>That's The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.
> >>
> >>The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
>
>
>



Mr Know_It_All
2004-02-03 20:39:41 EST
Christ you are a fucking idiot. Instead of lecturing us on how all these
people are animal abusers using the wrong techniques. Why don't you do
something usefull like tell us what the correct technique is?
Or is the only thing you are interested in here is Flamming everybody's
opinion you don't agree with?

yours truly
Mr. Know It All
(know it all except the right way to correct unwanted behavior because it's
not being shared in this N.G.)



The Puppy Wizard
2004-02-03 21:03:01 EST
HOWEDY JMS,

What do you want trainslated?

Think abHOWET it before you ask cause
The Puppy Wizard only got abHOWET
forty years or so left to go here abHOWETS.

Meanwhile, here's some puppy raising tips:

Borrowed from: "Puppy Raising Tips" from
professional trainers, John and Amy Dahl.

"Around four months many puppies can withstand a
correction. Unfortunately this is the time they start
teething and if their mouth hurts, they may act
generally sensitive. If this is the case, be patient and
wait for all those baby teeth to fall out.

In training, retrievers often respond to physical correction
better than verbal correction. While "NO!" is extremely
useful if puppy is about to bite an electrical cord or steal
food off the table, when you are teaching them something
(like obedience) a sharp jerk on their lead or swat with a
stick gets the message across with less emotion and less
effect on their confidence.

If they drop the dummy and act like their mouth hurts
when they are teething, stop all retrieving and wait for
their mouth to feel better. A correction should be just
severe enough to get the dog to respond.

Repeated weak corrections are very stressful to the dog."

END lyingfrosty dahl

If you are interested in purchasing a dignified stick to
lay across you puppy's arse, just send a personal check
or money order in the amount of $30-$40 for a 30"-40"
long whuppin stick.

These all natural hickory switches will outlast an
entire litter of puppies! MAYBE MOORE!! Supplies
limited, so HURRY! Be the first in your club to have
the hickory switch training aid guaranteed for the life
of your dog (which may be much shorter than nature
intended!).

Ask yourself: "HOWE COME DOESN'T JERRY
HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?"

And then just answer: "On AccHOWENT Of
JERRY KNOWS HOWE TO TRAIN DOGS
WITHOUT HURTING THEM."

And THEN SAY OUT LHOWED: "IGNORE
JERRY, HE'S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS."

You can get all the information you need to
PUPPERLY handle and train your dog using
non force, non confrontational, scientific and
psychological methods, in your FREE copy
of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.


Psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something
you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says:

"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit
of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the
article (SHE'D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON'T READ IT!),
there is NO mention in it of twisting ears (INDEED, SHE
PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES).

I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO
BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM).

I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE'S A
PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to
ADMIT THE TRUTH???).

I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where
slapping a dog is anything but destructive."

RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff doesn't
mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama....

amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear."

Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.


"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"

Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.

"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for
the first time, spray one squirt directly into
the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore
him and continue your normal behavior."

You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"

You think HOWER pals are playin with a full deck?

> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:

> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

> ================

That's INSANE. Ain't it. So's this, here's YOU,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works."

That's HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors
and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

> > You're scary Marilyn.

> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
> > individual. I feel very sorry for her
> > and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> > doubt, please provide a quote (an
> > original quote, not from one of Jerry
> > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> > shows a regular poster promoting or
> > using an abusive form of training.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

> ================

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"

Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.

"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for
the first time, spray one squirt directly into
the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore
him and continue your normal behavior."

You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"

You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?

Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?

Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
sionnach.

Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...

And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer, discoverer of cannibalism
in Labradors.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like
a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT
on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with
the heel of your palm.

"BethF" <dawg@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us32ki5fb9@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Frank" <flmarcher@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.0206101912.2980eb03@posting.google.com...
> > dfrntdrums@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326.01953.00000597@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> > > >"brianev" brianev@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it. Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
:
> Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
:
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.

"Rocky" <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?

matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.
He's a MENTAL CASE.

Isn't that true, Marilyn?

Of course not, but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu...

> >Di,

> I don't believe you mentioned a particular
> kind of training. If you are interested in
> training retrieval behavior than do
> consider our own Amy Dahl's:

> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
> Well-Mannered, Obedient and
> Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
> Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF
SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"

LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.

"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.

> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
> few regulars here who are either ill-
> tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to
progress to striking them more sharply"

BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...

"Try pinching the ear between the metal
casing and the collar, even the buckle on
the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"

OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.

"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

From: Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43.94E2DDD1@earthlink.net>
r*z@earthlink.net writes:

>> -snip headers etc.

>> Yes. you're right, I really should find
>> the book.. they don't have these books
>> in the local pet stores I frequent, where
>> do you find Koehler?

> I got a nice large print copy from
> Amazon.com

>Richard

Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:

http://www.powells.com/

Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.

Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,

========================================================

Here's some quotes and some methods right
outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!"
into its
face for 5
seconds:"

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."

Hanging

"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could cause. Then
he starts
to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog
makes his
grab.

Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems the dog is
suspended
in mid-air.

However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.

The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.

When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.

The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you

THE REAL "HOOD"

"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.

"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.

When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.

"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."

"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."

Are we havin FUN yet?

Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?




Josh
2004-02-03 21:11:54 EST

"JMS" <dogrot@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:2mXTb.2672$tV2.1895@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> Do you not speak English?
>
Whether or not you realize it, you just crossposted a hundred or so lines of
drivel across usenet, avoiding carefully set killfiles and irking a large
collection of people. If you at any time wish to communicate with Jerry
Howe or one of his sock puppets, confine yourself to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
or risk getting jumped on with both feet.



The Puppy Wizard
2004-02-03 21:43:24 EST
HOWEDY Mr Know_It_All,

Sometimes that's a difficult hat to wear.

"Mr Know_It_All" <wantorock@JoiMail.com> wrote in message
news:1020javroadfa4d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Christ you are a fucking idiot.

INDEEDY. The only thing The Puppy Wizard
is any good at is training dogs kids and ladies.

> Instead of lecturing us on how all these
> people are animal abusers using the
> wrong techniques. Why don't you do
> something usefull like tell us what the
> correct technique is?

The Puppy Wizard has DONE that. YOUR
PALS like to tell folks The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual is dangerHOWES and INEFFECTIVE
despite that The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students
all over the Whole Wild World CONSISTENTLY
REPORT 100%TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL,
NEARLY INSATANTLY.

Your PALS call their REPORTS LIES and FORGERIES.

> Or is the only thing you are interested in here is
> Flamming everybody's opinion you don't agree with?

Naah. The Puppy Wizard ain't FLAMIN noWON. The
Puppy Wizard is PUTTIN THEM HOWETA HERE.

You got that?

> yours truly

LikeWIZE,

> Mr. Know It All

The Puppy Wizard, who is SHORE GLAD HE
ain't a freakin Mr. Know_IT_ALL cause THAT
is IMPOSSIBLE to be...

> (know it all except the right way to correct
> unwanted behavior because it's not being
> shared in this N.G.)

RIGHT! That's on accHOWENT of your PALS
who HURT and KILL dogs LIE abHOWET it.
And THAT'S HOWE COME they can't post
here abHOWETS nogoddamnedMOORE.

"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change, Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Would
Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs, As Taught In Your FREE
Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual." The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Here's Disciple Paulie:

Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End
Training Really Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That
Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built
On Trust And Understanding."

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and
say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the
request and I bet you'll find your dog thinking
then responding everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule
applies to every aspect of the relationship with
your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

========================


Paul B <panders@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c638e36@clear.net.nz...

>> > "James Roberts" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> > news:3C637444.20DD6735@privacy.net...
>
> > I have downloaded and have read Jerry's Wit's End
> > document. Ignoring what you think of his participation,
> > what is your assessment of the merits of his
> > techniques?

Hello James,

I have used his recommended techniques and ideas
with great success, and over the period I've used these
methods the more I've become to understand and appreciate how
his methods work and how effective they can be if
carried out correctly.

His manual isn't conventional and as such gets
critisized and misunderstood. The basic concept
is to allow the dog to choose whatever behaviour
it wants for any situation but to distract (and
immediately praise ) it from behaviours we deem
undesirable, because of the correctly timed
distractions repeated usually about 4 times (in
each location) the dog decides of it own accord
that this behaviour is undesriable and therefore
pursues something else, if that behaviour is also
inappropriate to us then we carry on distracting,
very soon the dog finds a behaviour that is mutually
acceptable.

The benefits of this type of approach are numerous,
Firstly we aren't challenging the dog so there is no
conflict so the dog does't develop any possible negativity
to us, the dog decides of it own free will that a behaviour
is unsatisfying so chooses to cease it (in other words
even if we are gone the dog won't have any desire to
pursue that behaviour i.e. bin raiding etc).

I would recommend his manual.

Paul

=========================

From: Paul B (panders@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Can pack leader influence rank?
Date: 2002-02-25 00:51:48 PST

I use sound to distract the dog and praise it immediately.
The reason for the immediate praise is that as soon as
the dog is distracted it's no longer thinking of the
inappropriate behaviour so the praise reinforces the
"not doing" the unwanted behaviour.

I use various sound sources, a soda can with stones
in it, car keys, Click my fingers, etc. Varying the direction
of the sound each time is important too, otherwise the
dog may begin to anticipate the sound and it will lose
it's effect, if the noise direction is random the dog won't
get too familiar with it and it will remain an effective
distraction.

Remember too that we aren't trying to scare the bejesus
outta the dog, simply breaking it's train of thought while
it's thinking of the unwanted behaviour.

Sometimes you won't even see a reaction but the dog
will have been distracted fleetingly. (Recently one of
my dogs started habitually licking my feet while I was
watching TV, I clicked my fingers on her left side and
told her "good girl" even though she only paused her
licking briefly, next I clicked over her right side and
praised, by about the 4th repeat she suddenly stopped,
I repeated this over a few nights and now she doesn't
lick any more, on the few occasions she absent mindedly
licks now all I do is click and praise and she immediately
stops).

Timing is important too, learn to anticipate when the
dog is thinking about doing the "dirty deed" and distract
and praise then, with any luck the dog will try again almost
immediately so distract and praise again, if the timing is
correct after about the 4th rep the dog will stop.

I could go on but this post is long enough already,
remember too that the dog isn't being a "bad dog",
it's behaviour is simply inappropriate for the circumstances.

Happy training, :-)

Paul

==========================

Subject: Re: Leadership and hieracy. And Tit For Tat...
Date: 2003-02-26 18:24:01 PST

HOWEDY Disciple Paulie,

Paul B wrote:

> I was having a discussion the other day about
> leadership and hierarchy in the home environment.

Right... dog pack, Scout Pack, family pack, military
platoon, it's all the same same same same...

> I'm a firm believer that setting the hierarchy is very
> important in order to be able to train a dog and also
> to solve behaviour problems, anxieties etc.

Right. That's HOWE COME we don't have disobedience
or fighting in the ranks.

> I think that how we behave when the dog is about
> whether we are addressing the dog or not contributes
> to our dogs view of us.

Right. That's HOWE COME the military doesn't
permit fraternization between officers and enlisted
personnel. That's HOWE COME companies have
executive toilets and cafeterias and the military has
enlisted and officers and NCO'S clubs, and families
have children's play rooms, adult bedrooms, and
common areas where neither sort have priority over
the HOWES rules.

> We were discussing how a persons personality
> affects the way the dog views and respects them.

Right. That's HOWE COME food bribes USURP the
handler's authority. The dog is working for a tangible
item, not respect for the pack rules.

Bribes teach GREED, not comaraderie.

> I argued that it's no use trying to impress the dog
> with your leadership abilities if in other areas you
> don't show the same.

Right. Same same as the reasons behind restricting
fraternization.

Makes sense in business too. The rules are about
the same same same same for your dogs, kids,
spouses, employee's and employers. We must
never use force fear confrontation, or HOWER
AUTHORITY to enforce HOWER WILL.

That's HOWE COME we train the come command
as a conditioned reflex, there's no choice in the matter,
it's strictly reflex. Any command can be trained as a
CR, but we don't want to do that because it would
inhibit the dog's THINKING and ability and desire to
RATIONALIZE, and SOLVE PROBLEMS and use
his senses to do his job to the best of his ability.

That's not to say we don't be PALS, just that there's a
certain modicum of respect for WON another that must
always be followed to insure strict discipline and proper
authority.

THAT'S what makes for RESPECT.

IOW, we DON'T WANT TOTAL CONTROL based
solely on REFLEX, because we want the dog to
WILLINGLY WANT TO DO AS WE ASK, even if
it's NOT EXXXACTLY HOWE WE ULTIMATELY
WANT HIM TO BEHAVE.

We're walking a middle line between total unthinking
response, and total COOPERATIVE EFFORT.

When cooperation fails, we reinstill HOWER authority
by pulling rank, IOW, using the come command as
leverage to subordinate the dog, and then return him
to the heel or PARTNERSHIP position, where he can
start off again as a partner, not a subordinate.

So we're DELEGATING AUTHORITY, in a sense,
and we intervene with a come command when the
dog exceeds his bounds or fails to achieve, and
start over again till the behaviors are LEARNED
PUPPERLY and the dog is a WILLING WORKER.

Then the dog will NEVER question HOWER requests,
cause to do otherWIZE would be contraWIZE, to borrow
a term from HOWER professor SCRUFF SHAKE.

> For instance lets say you do exercises etc with the
> dog to set the hierarchy and act all in control in front
> it but are disorganized, easily flustered, indecisive,
> intimidated by others, etc in other aspects of your life.

That would likely make the dog overly protective...
like if some mugger was disturbing your XYL... you'd
automatically THUMP him. HOWEver, if the XYL had
TOTAL CONTROL and showed the mugger up to be
a CHUMP, you'd stand there laughin your @$$ of at them
and give her a hug when she's finished dispatching IT.

> My view is the dog is always observing you

Every last detail. My dogs know if I take off my
reading glasses and leave my desk, I'm fixin to
be away for a few minutes and they'll follow. If I
step away from my desk wearing my glasses,
I'm just goin to a file to find somethin and return
to work, so they remain where they are cause
they know I'm not goin nowhere noHOWE.

> and will see you for what you really are -

Right. Dogs are not so EZ to FOOL as PEOPLE are.

> not a worthy leader in this example despite your
> attempts to convince the dog otherwise when
> your are one to one.

Right. The Puppy Wizzzard tries to find the middle
line, so the dog will be concerned about what's goin
on, yet not overly concerned and still confident of
their position and regard for their leadership.

It's a delicate balance between being totally in control,
and totally out of control. That's HOWE COME dogs
protect HOWErselves.

A STRONG, IRON WILLED LEADER NEEDS NO PROTECTION. An
INTELLIGENT, FRAGILE, leader
NEEDS CONSTANT PROTECTION... so, we WANT
the dog to THINK we're AFRAID of things that go BUMP
in the nite.

We WANT HOWER dogs to believe we're delicate,
so they won't rougHOWES us.

> My observations seem to confirm this too,

INDEEDY.

> watching people with their dogs at parks etc, the
> more confident people seem to have better control
> of their dogs and better> behaved dogs than
> apparently less confident people.

Same same for military and businesses and family
and scouting...

That's HOWE COME The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students
get BETTER CONTROL when their dogs are OFF LEAD,
than when they're restricted on lead.

The dog senses the TRUST and CONFIDENCE
the handler has placed on them to DO as they're
REQUESTED, despite that there's no apparent
means of CORRECTING MISTAKES. That makes
the dog FEEL GOOD about working and paying
attention and DOIN as he's ASKED.

HOWEVER, WONce the dog is ORDERED to DO
something, the trust and confidence are eroded and
the dog is MOORE likely to challenge HOWER authority
and will UNDOUBTEDLY fail to do the command, cause
he's gonna challenge your authority if he feels put upon,
and will be unwilling to comply, forcing the handler to
take action to regain control and ENFORCE HIS WILL.

WONce we get into a battle of the wills, the dog wins
in EVERY situation where we cannot force control.

> Not absolutely but just generally.

Well, we're talking about VERY SUBTLE effects
having BIG influences on ALL HOWER RELATIONSHIPS.

Like the chain of command in the military must never
be broken, we can establish similar rules for HOWER
behavior which will be followed by everyWON in the
PACK, be it family, dog, scouts, business, or military
command.

> If I'm correct then is it possible our dogs obedience
> and behaviors etc are reflecting our self confidences?

ABSOLUTELY. Hesitating while giving commands,
waiting for the last command to be followed etc,
detract from the dog's sense of confidence in us,
and shows him we're UNCERTAIN as to HIS
willingness to FOLLOW COMMANDS, just as it
makes kids or wives or employees and employers
say NO!

> Paul

WONCE we learn HOWE to ESTABLISH the proper
degree of CONTROL,

HOWER charges will follow suite because it's the
MOST NATURAL THING TO DO. We NEVER
QUESTION pupper authority. HOWEver, if we go
over or under, we have FIGHTING in the ranks,
MUTINY, and DESERTION.

NOW there's only TWO questions remaining: HOWE
do we instill pupper discipline without repression to
elicit 100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL just
like a military unit with HOWER dogs, kids, spouses,
employee's, employer's, and governments?

AND HOWE COME The Puppy Wizzzard NEVER
FOLLOWED HIS OWN RULES HERE ON HOWER
FORUM, KNOWING FULL WELL, TO DO OTHERWIZE
WILL CERTAINLY CAUSE DISSENT, FIGHTING, HATRED, ANGER, EVEN
DEATH?

The First question is ANSWERED IN FULL in your
FREE copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

The SECOND question is answered in reading
HOWER forum... FIGGER IT OUT. The Puppy
Wizzzard came here to IDENTIFY, EXXXPOSE,
DISCREDIT, and DESTROY the lying dog abusing
Punk Thug Cowards we got here who INTENTIONALLY
HURT DOGS to ENFORCE THEIR WILL AND WILL
GLADLY KILL A BAD DOG, TO BE FAIR.

Kinda tit for tat, Disciple Paulie... It's a HARD LESSON,
for SHORE, but a NECESSARY WON, given the state
of the art here abouts.

Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}TPW : ~ { >

Here's Disciple Paulie's reply to roo (alikat) when she
LIED and said The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual is DANGERHOWES
and INEFFECTIVE:

"Paul B" <panders@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2ae204@clear.net.nz...

> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with.
>
> I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
>
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand.
>
> That means abstract training, doing sometimes what
> appears to > almost be the opposite of what makes
> sense to us.
>
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
>
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
>
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
>
> Paul

=======================


Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?

Paul B (NOSPAMpaulbousie@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Good dogs!!! bad dogs.??
Date: 2000/10/21

Something occurred this morning that made me think how
we treat our dogs and what expectations we have of them.

Because it was a Saturday we slept in and the dogs
eventually jumped up on the bed on my wife's side. After
a brief greeting she very abruptly demanded they get down,
"OFF THE BED" she insisted, Sam looked at her perplexed,
so she repeated the "order", so Sam tried to lick her face,
"GET OFF" she said abruptly.

Sam got down but was unsure what he had done wrong. After
a bit they both came over and jumped up on my side, I patted
them etc and eventually asked them to get down, "off the bed,
good dogs" and they hopped off immediately with no prob's.

Eileen asked me why they obey me and not her so easily.
I told her they got down for me because I asked them to,
they know the command "off the bed" or "off anything" so
there is no need to demand it of them, ask them and they
will comply, demand it and they get confused because
they think you are annoyed with them but they don't know
why so they try to "make amends" which is why Sam licked her.

I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.

Telling Sam he's a good dog after he sit's apart from been too
late is also a gamble because if he doesn't sit then there's
no positive interaction.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.

Paul

=======================


From: Paul B (NOSPAMpanders@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Paul.

========================


"Paul B" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3edc57c5@clear.net.nz...
>
> "shaper" <nomail@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3edb6bbb@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
> > I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now,
> > and am getting really confused!!
> > but is there actually anyone who has used the methods in
> > this manual with any success ?

100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY INSTANTLY, BY NEARLY
EVERY FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Student.

It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE, SCIENTIFIC and
PSYCHOLOGICAL technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.

> > I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon
> > and really would like to know the best and most
> > effective way of training without using food
> > treats or violence (i do agree with what the guy
> > says about food treats and violence)
> > Thanks for any intelligent replies
>
> I have tried his methods and found them extremely
> effective.There are several areas in particular I
> found useful.
>
> He teaches you and the dog to pay attention to
> each other all the time. He teaches you to have
> such good communication with your dog you
> don't need leash corrections or shock collars or
> even food, you can get the dogs attention any
> time you like by calling it or with a snap of your
> fingers.
>
> When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk
> close to me I ended up going to the parks and
> teaching them without a lead at all, that ensured
> I had to use good communication and was unable
> to be tempted to use the lead to correct them.
>
> Another part of the training I agree with is not using
> the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
> or react with it in such a way that you become involved
> in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach
> often results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when
> you are about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding,
> counter surfing etc).
>
> Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
> friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
> pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
> is included in this), teach it to recall reliably,
> then to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
>
> Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
> If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
> are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
>
> Paul

===============================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fitz [mailto:donfitz69@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
> To: Amanda@DCFWatch.com; paulbousie@clear.net.nz
> Subject: Jerry Howe
>
> Hi,
>
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulbousie@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donfitz69@hotmail.com>;
<*a@DCFWatch.com> Cc: <jhowe2@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe

> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.
>
> His methods are the best I have come across.
>
> They aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so
> if you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.
>
> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.
>
> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.
> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.
> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.
>
> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.
>
> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
>
> Paul Bousie

==============================

"Linda" <llindaleedaniel@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3c317fe4.0302091951.7215c6f7@posting.google.com...

I have posted about my dog Sunshine before who was aggressive
to all people and dogs until I found and used
the Wits End Training methods.

He is now great--can go any where and he is fine with people
and dog even when they get in his face on a flexi lead! He
still had problem with stress that was making him scratch him
self raw in places--he nose has had a sore for the last month.

We started using the Doggy Do Right and his nose
was almost healed when the machine went off. The
next day he was scratching and opened the sore on
his nose again.

Twelve hours after I turned it back on he quit scratching
and his nose is healing again. The machine does work.

I have two barking dogs behind me that have reduced
their barking a lot. In fact when we were out walking
one them came over to visit and the owner did not notice
he was gone since he did not bark at us as he usually did.

The Wits End Training Method works, the problems
I have had are the result I having trouble breaking my
old patterns.

My dog got it fast but kept getting confused when I had
trouble getting the commands together. I always thought I
used praise but I really did not until I started using the
Wits End Method of sound and praise. In the past it took a lot
of treats to get him to do something--now I have been able to
teach him several things like pull the laundry basket with
just praise. He really likes it better I think and does not
seem to miss the treats for jobs.

If you have problem with your dog try the Wits End Method--it
is free and it works and it improves your relationship.
So much of dog training is force and using pain to get a dog
to do something that a method that works and does not rely on
pain, force, or "corrections" is wonderful for both owner and
dog. Don't think something that is free can not be good
because I have spent more hours and more thousands of dollars
than I though possible in the three years with Sunshine and
nothing helped until I found the Wits End Method of sound and
praise.

==================================


--- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bousie
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Geday.


Hey J,

I see nothings changed on the NG. Still the same
old crappy advice and misunderstanding of the
only advice worth reading.

The problem with your method J is that I can't
answer the questions on the NG no more, people
are after a quick fix, they don't want to understand
that dog training requires a disiplined method, I'm
now really understanding that they are all result
orientated, they want the dog to sit, to down, to
stay, to come, to stop it's "bad" behaviours, they
want to stamp out each anxiety one at a time not
realising they create a new one as they deal with
the last.

I feel sorry for them, they don't understand, they
don't even realise the errors of thier ways and
they arn't self thinkers, they follow the majority,
after all if everyone says thats the way then it
must be. I've finally realised people don't want
to learn to train dogs they want a trained dog,
they want a little puppet that sits and stays and
downs and does all the nice doggy stuff or so
they think, then when the dog acts like a dog
they come squealing to the NG asking how to
stop the dog being a dog.

I have a nice little visulisation of a dogs mind
that I think demonstrates the way we approach
dog training. Imagine lots of little circles all in a
cluster, each one representing a dog anxiety or
behaviour ( desied or not), each circle represents
something about the dog, all of them create what
a dog is.

The traditional way to train a dog is to stamp out
the "bad" circles, try to eliminate as many as you
can, problem is each one you stamp out another
takes it's place (anxiety circles can't be destroyed
they just change), obviously it's a futile exercise,
but thats the traditional way.

Now imagine a big circle that completely surrounds
all the small circles, this big circle is the whole dog,
that's what we get hold of with all the little circles
inside, we don't see the little circles we see the BIG
circle the macro as you put it and use that to train.

I laugh now when I see posts critisising you, they
are critising something they don't even understand
or even have the capacity to understand.

See ya,

Paul

=====================





The Puppy Wizard
2004-02-03 22:04:58 EST
Oh, bye the bye, josh. You can't post here abHOWETS
noMOORE.

The Puppy Wizard. <{}; ~ ) >

"Josh" <eternalNOTstudent@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:KxYTb.9479$GO6.9356@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "JMS" <dogrot@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:2mXTb.2672$tV2.1895@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > Do you not speak English?
> >
> Whether or not you realize it, you just crossposted a hundred or
so lines of
> drivel across usenet, avoiding carefully set killfiles and
irking a large
> collection of people. If you at any time wish to communicate
with Jerry
> Howe or one of his sock puppets, confine yourself to
rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> or risk getting jumped on with both feet.
>
>



The Puppy Wizard
2004-02-04 12:50:34 EST
HOWEDY Mr Know_It_All,

"Mr Know_It_All" <wantorock@JoiMail.com> wrote in message
news:1020javroadfa4d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Christ

No, you mean The Puppy Wizard.

Christlike as The Puppy Wizard is,
CHRIST FAILED. The Puppy Wizard
NEVER FAILS.

> you are a fucking idiot.

NO. CHRIST was the IDIOT cause HE
didn't follow the INSTRUCTIONS in
his FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual.

> Instead of lecturing us on how all these
> people are animal abusers

AND MENTAL CASES.

AND PROVING IT.

> using the wrong techniques.

They HURT and KILL dogs cause they FEAR them.

> Why don't you do something usefull like tell us
> what the correct technique is?

ALL the INFORMATION you NEED to know is
in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

> Or is the only thing you are interested in here
> is Flamming everybody's opinion you don't agree
> with?

Agreement got NUTHIN to do with HURTING and
KILLING dogs. FEELINGS don't cHOWENT.

> yours truly
> Mr. Know It All
> (know it all except the right way to correct
> unwanted behavior because it's
> not being shared in this N.G.)

That's cause HOWER MENTALLY ILL DOG
ABUSERS PREFER TO HURT and INTIMDIATE
their dogs, Mr Know_It_All.

>
> -----Original Message----- From: Amanda
> [mailto:amanda@dcfwatch.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14,
> 2003 7:14 PM Subject: Re: Discipline On Tuesday 14 January
> 2003 20:47, T__ wrote:
>
> funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful
> couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his life
> who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and distraction
> with some family pack exercises.
>
> They spent the day with us sunday helping me on my two
> pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month old female
> who is my bubby :) and our 7 week male pup. anyway..
> not only did i nip any and all aggression issues in mere
> minutes... he and his wife helped me with my kids. I was
> and always have been a spanker. It is all i knew how.. i
> never, ever wanted to be.. but i was. my house/kids were
> out of control.. i was always stressed.
>
> Since he and his wife came down sunday we've had a
> HUGE change... for the first time the kids didn't destroy
> my
> house before i woke up... my 3yo was in my bed coloring
> waiting for us to wake up... this is the first time she
> ever used paper :) she usually does walls, furniture.
>
> Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise..
>
> and it works.
>
>I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
> bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am
> and know it :) There has not been a temper tantrum
>in two days in my house.
>
> You guys have no idea how great this is.
> But best of all..
>
> this method does NOT use the evil eye or a tone of that is
> in any way short of absolute praise.. no shouting.. not
> even a quiet Chloe!.. nada..
>
> ONLY praise.
>
> They even taught my kids not to take candy unless i say
> so.. (my oldest> will literally let you pierce her ears
> for candy.. it's been done twice and i keep taking em out)
> and now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my
> closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there
> and NO ONE has eaten one!
>
> My 3 yo is even helping me pick up the house..
> the baby took my lingerie chest apart.. and she cleaned it
> up! first time! They don't even go out the open door
> without my offering it! they helped me sort laundry..
> clean the living room... im amazed.
>
> The 3 yo got some yogurt from the fridge andwalked
> to our kitchen table, sat down and ate it.. she REFUSES
>to sit at the table and eat!
>
> We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so when
> they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you show me how
> you sit pretty?? and they ALL hop down and show me to sit
> pretty with their feet NOT on the cofee table.. hands
> friggin folded.. i almost fell over.. thanks for reminding
> me to share my joy! I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell!
> lol! here i picked names that shout well and i don't
> need em!!!
>
> > how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/
> > Hello again ladies, Amanda, I love your signature. I
> > also do not spank my daughter, however, she is at an age
> > where she really is asserting her independence. Can
> > anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings,
> > T.

----------------------

Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003
02:38:46 -0500 From: Amanda <amanda@dcfwatch.com>

> Can you go into this a little more? How did they
> accomplish all this in one day?

My learning is progressive. I email or call him with
questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something
clicked.

How would we do it with our families?

that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be
typing when your kids are in college ;)

> I really have problems controlling my temper when I am
> already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me:

Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had
problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old
wouldn't clean her room... i would sometimes cry is was so
strung out.. i didn't wanna spank but i didn't know what to do
instead.. so i spanked.. and then spanking didn't work.. and
then my dogs went nuts and i called this trainer and he showed
me how to do it.

pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc.

Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me..
hurting me and then laughing.

Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it
all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is
i've only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two
days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :)

Children, dogs, people.. they do thinks wrong because it
elicits your ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old enjoy
fingerpainting on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting the
minute you pick up the phone?? No.

They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's
what they want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think it
is controlling you.

Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure
they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are
watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be. they
should stay within x feet of you.. because they like mom and
she's cool and she keeps em safe... they shouldn't run and
expect you to chase them.. because you won't always be there
to chase them... that's how kids die or get lost.

When they learn to follow you.. it's all good.

Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz
from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it..
she threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says
more.. and i tickle her... then i pick up her bottle and
pretend im drinking it.. i offer her a drink and snatch it
back saying MY Baba!! She wants that bottle.. so she takes it
and drinks it.. even tho i didn't refill it. we had a huge
problem with them taking things they cant have and when i
wanted it they ran... now i give the baby (19mo) my finger..
and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout My finger! that's
mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she resists.. and i go
"Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives it to me and i
gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're welcome.. and i
give her the finger back... then i hand her say a lighter...
and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say... can i have that???
and she gives it over etc. Of course sometimes she'll have a
cool! book! and ill ask can i have that.. and shell say No.
and i say that's ok! and tickle her or snap my fingers and
say good girl naya.. good job.. then ill start my game again
and wrestle and try to take it gently... then.. can i have
that??? she gives it over. this works with everything now.

> Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like
> that.

Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced
control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract
and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids. Put
some unimportant paper all over.. when he goes to touch it..
make a sound and distract him.. then good boy, that's a nice
baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes for the paper and
breaks the thgouth you throw him in the air and praise like
mad!

> How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do
> you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough
> to distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal
> objects into electrical outlets, trying to get into the
> oven, etc.?

Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to
distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away..
but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know
youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... cuz when
you force control.. with the come command when you want your
dog away from something... or when you pull a dirty shoe from
your baby's mouth.. you put value on it.

Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to
pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down..
you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap..
mom WANTS IT!

so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it
out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be
kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get
annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you...
if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch
em up away from falling down... but only when you have to..
then work realy hard to overcome that forced control.

Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not
only to command your attention, but also mom will always catch
me so she is watching me.. not me watching her.

> I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started
> tending other kids.

those are my kids. I have had social workers with their
degrees in child development stop offering me services cuz
they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine the
obstinate kids.

> They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings up
> another question - what do you do when YOUR child is the
> bully?

if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big
distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward... distract
and say oh my goodness! and pay attention to the other kid...
he wont get the attention... then explain how that hurts.
odds are your kid won't hurt another kid if he truly
understands its not nice.

> C__ is always beating the other boy over the head when he
> comes over. We don't hit in anger in our family

i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times
over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to.
i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone else
doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge.

> (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that
> in case it is giving him ideas)

my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is chasing
around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden spools yelling at
the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat your a$$.. HA HA HA... no
IM gonna beat YOUR a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly
think im nuts.. but the kids love it dog even plays too

> but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go
> to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes.
> It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes
> bright red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds.

It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't
want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out of it
until they're parents :) it's one of those times you have to
use your patience and keep distracting and praising.

> So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse
> him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up and
> run to the window and start bending the blinds.

he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you
have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not..
no anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total
complete entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll
be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive!

One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to
work up to the positive only.

> So I gently pick him up and lay him back down.

try not to.. but if you have to ok

> And we repeat the process over 10000 times.

when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his
face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or
giggle.

> Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently.

better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry.
No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to
remember they will not always be this small.. and youll never,
ever for anything get it back. it's what im using

> That makes him cry, which is the last straw that FINALLY
> gets him to nurse to sleep.

He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep.

> Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a
> lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping,
> and finally crying releases it for him.

no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for
some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger,
sadness... sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not
because of his life.. because he's insecure... their dealing
with negative and positive.. and thats what makes em
insecure.

> Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying?

distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance..
fast for day.. slow rocking at night.

> Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to
> work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can
> reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside
> down.

cuzhe knows what you're doing. hold him instead.. or sit him
in your lap on the bed and rock

> Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that
> doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured
> and screams and fights to
> get out.

becuase it is forced control.

> Katie

Amanda.


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