Dog Discussion: Violence Is A Learned Behavior, Say Researchers At Wake Forest University

Violence Is A Learned Behavior, Say Researchers At Wake Forest University
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The Puppy Wizard
2004-01-17 18:33:30 EST
HOWEDY People,

Violence Is A Learned Behavior, Say
Researchers At Wake Forest University

Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
(http://www.wfubmc.edu/)

"When children are disciplined with severe corporal
punishment or verbal abuse or when they are physically
or sexually abused, it is not surprising that they behave
aggressively or violently toward others."

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. - The strong association
between exposure to violence and the use of violence
by young adolescents illustrates that violence is a
learned behavior, according to a new study, published
by researchers at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical
Center and included in the November issue of the Journal
of Pediatrics.

"This study has tremendous implications," Robert H. DuRant,
vice chair of pediatrics at Wake Forest University School of
Medicine and an author of the study. "Even if children and
adolescents are exposed to other risk factors that have
traditionally been linked to youth violence and weapon
carrying, adolescents are not likely to engage in violence if
social learning from exposure to violence does not occur."

"Children learn violent behaviors in primary social groups,
such as the family and peer groups, as well as observe it in
their neighborhoods and in the community at large," DuRant
added. "These behaviors are reinforced by what children and
adolescents see on television, on the internet and in video
games and movies, observe in music videos and hear in their
music.

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release
issued by Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center
for journalists and other members of the public. If you wish
to quote from any part of this story, please credit Wake Forest
University Baptist Medical Center as the original source. You
may also wish to include the following link in any citation:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001106061128.htm

Your pal, Jerry.

You can get all the information you need to properly handle
and train your dog using non force, non confrontational,
scientific and psychological behavior modification and
conditioning techniques, from the Wits' End Dog Training
Method manual available for free at
http://www.doggydoright.com

"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and
judge things by reason's way, not by popular say." Montaigne

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor
Hardin

"If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman.

DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS... j;~)

"CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw.

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems
of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the
simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to
admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in
explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which
they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:

caveat
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them.
If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog
around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock,
shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that
corrections are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you
as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if
they can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows Howe.

Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
http://www.doggydoright.com

Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-

There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.
Who ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not
hit at all.
-Nietzsche-

The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.

The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him
smarter.

The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising
split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not
mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and
scolding.
-Jerry Howe-



Jeff Taylor
2004-01-20 10:41:26 EST
PLONK!

Good by TROLL...



Rex's Mom
2004-01-20 12:32:08 EST
I wonder if I am 'missing' something.

Seems that there has been an awful lot of postings from
Puppy Wizard very recently. Also seems to be some aversion
to what s/he says.

Somebody care to provide some background?

Jeff Taylor wrote:
> PLONK!
>
> Good by TROLL...
>
>


>rosie<
2004-01-20 13:21:54 EST
first a BIG THANKS to all who helped me when GUCCI was suffering
from her arthritic hips.
she is back to running, jumping, and eating!

now for another question:

every once in awhile, gucci has a smell similar to an "ash
pile"...................i can't describe it any other way, but that
seems close to it.
the smell permeates the air right around her, and at times can make
my eyes sting.....................

this happens maybe once or twice weekly.

what could this be?
(i have already checked out what she might be eating outside, and
that doesn't correlate)



Deana Hall
2004-01-20 13:24:32 EST
I'm confused as well. I only started posting within the past few days....


"Rex's Mom" <labsrgreat@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:sCdPb.131844$4F2.15624430@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> I wonder if I am 'missing' something.
>
> Seems that there has been an awful lot of postings from
> Puppy Wizard very recently. Also seems to be some aversion
> to what s/he says.
>
> Somebody care to provide some background?
>
> Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > PLONK!
> >
> > Good by TROLL...
> >
> >
>



Thomas T. Veldhouse
2004-01-20 14:27:01 EST
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:24:32 -0500, "Deana Hall" <mad3@tusco.net>
wrote:

>I'm confused as well. I only started posting within the past few days....
>
>

Just filter him out. The man is absolutely manic. I just downloaded
more than 70 message headers to find only 15 that were not from him.
What give this guy pleasure anyway?

Tom Veldhouse

Jeff Taylor
2004-01-20 15:38:51 EST

"Deana Hall" <mad3@tusco.net> wrote in message
news:EnePb.1513$545.28720@news.uswest.net...
> I'm confused as well. I only started posting within the past few days....
>
>
Read the guys/gals dribble... You will soon see he/she is nothing but a
TROLL that doesn't have a life!

Jeff T.



The Puppy Wizard
2004-01-20 16:08:05 EST

"Deana Hall" <mad3@tusco.net> wrote in message
news:EnePb.1513$545.28720@news.uswest.net...
> I'm confused as well. I only started posting within the past
few days....
>
>
> "Rex's Mom" <labsrgreat@example.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sCdPb.131844$4F2.15624430@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> > I wonder if I am 'missing' something.
> >
> > Seems that there has been an awful lot of postings from
> > Puppy Wizard very recently. Also seems to be some aversion
> > to what s/he says.
> >
> > Somebody care to provide some background?
> >
> > Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > > PLONK!
> > >
> > > Good by TROLL...

Seems jeff is a dog abuser. At least he recognized
it withHOWET The Puppy Wizard havin to point it
HOWET and EMBARRASS him, eh jeff?

Can you folks tell the truth from a lie?:


> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:

> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

> ================

That's INSANE. Ain't it. So's this, here's YOU,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works."

That's HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors
and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

> > You're scary Marilyn.

> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
> > individual. I feel very sorry for her
> > and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> > doubt, please provide a quote (an
> > original quote, not from one of Jerry
> > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> > shows a regular poster promoting or
> > using an abusive form of training.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

> ================

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
is COURTEOUS?

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?"

Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.

"When you bring home the Bitter Apple for
the first time, spray one squirt directly into
the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore
him and continue your normal behavior."

You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"

You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?

Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?

Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm
Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"
sionnach.

Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...

And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer, discoverer of cannibalism
in Labradors.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like
a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT
on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with
the heel of your palm.

"BethF" <dawg@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us32ki5fb9@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Frank" <flmarcher@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.0206101912.2980eb03@posting.google.com...
> > dfrntdrums@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
news:<20020610173326.01953.00000597@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> > > >"brianev" brianev@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > dogs are lies.
> > > All of it. Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
:
> Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
:
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> let alone respond to them.

"Rocky" <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?

matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.
He's a MENTAL CASE.

Isn't that true, Marilyn?

Of course not, but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu...

> >Di,

> I don't believe you mentioned a particular
> kind of training. If you are interested in
> training retrieval behavior than do
> consider our own Amy Dahl's:

> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
> Well-Mannered, Obedient and
> Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
> Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF
SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"

LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.

"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.

> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
> few regulars here who are either ill-
> tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to
progress to striking them more sharply"

BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...

"Try pinching the ear between the metal
casing and the collar, even the buckle on
the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"

OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.

"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

From: Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43.94E2DDD1@earthlink.net>
r*z@earthlink.net writes:

>> -snip headers etc.

>> Yes. you're right, I really should find
>> the book.. they don't have these books
>> in the local pet stores I frequent, where
>> do you find Koehler?

> I got a nice large print copy from
> Amazon.com

>Richard

Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:

http://www.powells.com/

Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.

Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,

========================================================

Here's some quotes and some methods right
outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!"
into its
face for 5
seconds:"

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."

Hanging

"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could cause. Then
he starts
to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog
makes his
grab.

Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems the dog is
suspended
in mid-air.

However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.

The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.

When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.

The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you

THE REAL "HOOD"

"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.

"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.

When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.

"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."

"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."

Are we havin FUN yet?

Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?





The Puppy Wizard
2004-01-20 17:01:22 EST

"Deana Hall" <mad3@tusco.net> wrote in message
news:EnePb.1513$545.28720@news.uswest.net...
> I'm confused as well. I only started posting within the past
few days....
>
>
> "Rex's Mom" <labsrgreat@example.invalid> wrote in message
> news:sCdPb.131844$4F2.15624430@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> > I wonder if I am 'missing' something.
> >
> > Seems that there has been an awful lot of postings from
> > Puppy Wizard very recently. Also seems to be some aversion
> > to what s/he says.
> >
> > Somebody care to provide some background?
> >
> > Jeff Taylor wrote:
> > > PLONK!
> > >
> > > Good by TROLL...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amanda [mailto:amanda@dcfwatch.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Discipline
>
> On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:47, T__ wrote:
>
> funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful
> couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his life
> who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and distraction
> with some family pack exercises.
>
>They spent the day with us sunday helping me on my
> two pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month old
> female who is my bubby :) and our 7 week male pup.
> anyway.. not only did i nip any and all aggression issues
> in mere minutes...he and his wife helped me with my kids.
>
> I was and always have been a spanker.
>
> It is all i knew how.. i never, ever wanted to be..
> but i was. my house/kids were out of control..
> i was always stressed.
>
> Since he and his wife came down sunday we've
> had a HUGE change... for the first time the kids
> didn't destroy my house before i woke up... my
> 3yo was in my bed coloring waiting for us to wake
> up... this is the first time she ever used paper
> :) she usually does walls, furniture.
>
> Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works.
>
> I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
> bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am and
> know it :) There has not been a temper tantrum in two
> days in my house.
>
> You guys have no idea how great this is.
>
> But best of all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye
> or a tone of that is in any way short of absolute praise..
> no shouting.. not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada.. ONLY
> praise.
>
> They even taught my kids not to take candy unless
> i say so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her
> ears for candy..
>
> it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and
> now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my
> closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there
> and NO ONE has eaten one! My 3 yo is even helping
> me pick up the house.. the baby took my lingerie chest
> apart.. and she cleaned it up! first time!
>
> They don't even go out the open door without my
> offering it! they helped me sort laundry.. clean the
> living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got some yogurt
> from the fridge andwalked to our kitchen table, sat
> down and ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at the table
> and eat!
>
> We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so
> when they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you
> show me how you sit pretty?? and they ALL hop
> down and show me to sit pretty with their feet NOT
> on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost
> fell over..
>
> thanks for reminding me to share my joy!
>
> I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell! lol!
>
> here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!!
>
> > how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/
>
> > Hello again ladies,
>
> > Amanda, I love your signature. I also do not spank my
> > daughter, however, she is at an age where she really is
> > asserting her independence.
>
> > Can anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings,
> > T.

Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP!
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:38:46 -0500
From: Amanda <amanda@dcfwatch.com>

> Can you go into this a little more? How did they
> accomplish all this in one day?

My learning is progressive. I email or call him with
questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something
clicked.

How would we do it with our families?

that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be
typing when your kids are in college ;)

> I really have problems controlling my temper when I am
> already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me:

Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had
problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old
wouldn't clean her room... i would sometimes cry is was so
strung out.. i didn't wanna spank but i didn't know what to do
instead.. so i spanked.. and then spanking didn't work.. and
then my dogs went nuts and i called this trainer and he showed
me how to do it.

pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc.

Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me..
hurting me and then laughing.

Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it
all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is
i've only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two
days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :)

Children, dogs, people.. they do thinks wrong because it
illicits your
ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old enjoy fingerpainting
on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting the minute you pick up
the phone?? No.

They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's
what they
want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think it is
controlling you.

Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure
they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are
watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be. they
should stay within x feet of you.. because they like mom and
she's cool and she keeps em safe... they shouldn't run and
expect you to chase them.. because you won't always be there
to chase them... that's how kids die or get lost.

When they learn to follow you.. it's all good.

Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz
from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it..
she threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says
more.. and i tickle her... then i pick up her bottle and
pretend im drinking it.. i offer her a drink and snatch it
back saying MY Baba!! She wants that bottle.. so she takes it
and drinks it.. even tho i didn't refill it. we had a huge
problem with them taking things they cant have and when i
wanted it they ran... now i give the baby (19mo) my finger..
and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout My finger! that's
mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she resists.. and i go
"Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives it to me and i
gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're welcome.. and i
give her the finger back... then i hand her say a lighter...
and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say... can i have that???
and she gives it over etc. Of course sometimes she'll have a
cool! book! and ill ask can i have that.. and shell say No.
and i say that's ok! and tickle her or snap my fingers and
say good girl naya.. good job.. then ill start my game again
and wrestle and try to take it gently... then.. can i have
that??? she gives it over. this works with everything now.

> Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like
> that.

Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced
control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract
and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids. Put
some unimportant paper all over.. when he goes to touch it..
make a sound and distract him.. then good boy, that's a nice
baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes for the paper and
breaks the thgouth you throw him in the air and praise like
mad!

> How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do
> you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough
> to distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal
> objects into electrical outlets, trying to get into the
> oven, etc.?

Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to
distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away..
but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know
youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... cuz when
you force control.. with the come command when you want your
dog away from something... or when you pull a dirty shoe from
your baby's mouth.. you put value on it.

Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to
pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down..
you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap..
mom WANTS IT!

so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it
out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be
kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get
annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you...
if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch
em up away from falling down... but only when you have to..
then work realy hard to overcome that forced control.

Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not
only to command your attention, but also mom will always catch
me so she is watching me.. not me watching her.

> I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started
> tending other kids.

those are my kids. I have had social workers with their
degrees in child development stop offering me services cuz
they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine the
obstinate kids.

> They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings up
> another question - what do you do when YOUR child is the
> bully?

if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big
distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward... distract
and say oh my goodness! and pay attention to the other kid...
he wont get the attention... then explain how that hurts.
odds are your kid won't hurt another kid if he truly
understands its not nice.

> C__ is always beating the other boy over the head when he
> comes over.
> We don't hit in anger in our family

i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times
over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to.
i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone else
doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge.

> (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that
> in case it is giving him ideas)

my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is chasing
around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden spools yelling at
the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat your a$$.. HA HA HA... no
IM gonna beat YOUR a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly
think im nuts.. but the kids love it dog even plays too

> but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go
> to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes.
> It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes
> bright red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds.

It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't
want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out of it
until they're parents :) it's one of those times you have to
use your patience and keep distracting and praising.

> So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse
> him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up and
> run to the window and start bending the blinds.

he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you
have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not..
no anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total
complete entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll
be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive!

One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to
work up to the positive only.

> So I gently pick him up and lay him back down.

try not to.. but if you have to ok

> And we repeat the process over 10000 times.

when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his
face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or
giggle.

> Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently.

better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry.
No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to
remember they will not always be this small.. and youll never,
ever for anything get it back. it's what im using

> That makes him cry, which is the last straw that
> FINALLY gets him to nurse to sleep.

He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep.

> Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a
> lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping,
> and finally crying releases it for him.

no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for
some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger,
sadness... sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not
because of his life.. because he's insecure... their dealing
with negative and positive.. and thats what makes em
insecure.

> Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying?

distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance..
fast for day.. slow rocking at night.

> Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to
> work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can
> reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside
> down.

cuzhe knows what you're doing. hold him instead.. or sit him
in your lap on the bed and rock

> Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that
> doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured
> and screams and fights to
> get out.

becuase it is forced control.

> Katie

Amanda



The Puppy Wizard
2004-01-20 17:01:22 EST
HOWEDY jeff,

"Jeff Taylor" <foiler@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:vlgPb.63$o97.59363@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Deana Hall" <mad3@tusco.net> wrote in message
> news:EnePb.1513$545.28720@news.uswest.net...
>
> > I'm confused as well. I only started posting within
>> the past few days....
> >
> >
> Read the guys/gals dribble... You will soon see
> he/she is nothing but a TROLL that doesn't have a life!

The Puppy Wizard doesn't call people dog abusers
cause they leave their dogs HOWET all winter, jeff.
That doesn't make you a dog abuser. Doin what you
do to TRAIN your dog is what makes you a dog abuser.

> Jeff T.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amanda [mailto:amanda@dcfwatch.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Discipline
>
> On Tuesday 14 January 2003 20:47, T__ wrote:
>
> funny you bring this up... i met the most wonderful
> couple.. man and wife.. he's a dog trainer.. all his life
> who uses a technique that is ONLY praise and distraction
> with some family pack exercises.
>
>They spent the day with us sunday helping me on my
> two pits... one is a protective/aggressive 20 month old
> female who is my bubby :) and our 7 week male pup.
> anyway.. not only did i nip any and all aggression issues
> in mere minutes...he and his wife helped me with my kids.
>
> I was and always have been a spanker.
>
> It is all i knew how.. i never, ever wanted to be..
> but i was. my house/kids were out of control..
> i was always stressed.
>
> Since he and his wife came down sunday we've
> had a HUGE change... for the first time the kids
> didn't destroy my house before i woke up... my
> 3yo was in my bed coloring waiting for us to wake
> up... this is the first time she ever used paper
> :) she usually does walls, furniture.
>
> Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works.
>
> I have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
> bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am and
> know it :) There has not been a temper tantrum in two
> days in my house.
>
> You guys have no idea how great this is.
>
> But best of all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye
> or a tone of that is in any way short of absolute praise..
> no shouting.. not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada.. ONLY
> praise.
>
> They even taught my kids not to take candy unless
> i say so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her
> ears for candy..
>
> it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and
> now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my
> closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there
> and NO ONE has eaten one! My 3 yo is even helping
> me pick up the house.. the baby took my lingerie chest
> apart.. and she cleaned it up! first time!
>
> They don't even go out the open door without my
> offering it! they helped me sort laundry.. clean the
> living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got some yogurt
> from the fridge andwalked to our kitchen table, sat
> down and ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at the table
> and eat!
>
> We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so
> when they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you
> show me how you sit pretty?? and they ALL hop
> down and show me to sit pretty with their feet NOT
> on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost
> fell over..
>
> thanks for reminding me to share my joy!
>
> I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell! lol!
>
> here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!!
>
> > how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/
>
> > Hello again ladies,
>
> > Amanda, I love your signature. I also do not spank my
> > daughter, however, she is at an age where she really is
> > asserting her independence.
>
> > Can anyone help with ideas of what I can do? Blessings,
> > T.

Subject: Re Discipline. Also, SLEEP!
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:38:46 -0500
From: Amanda <amanda@dcfwatch.com>

> Can you go into this a little more? How did they
> accomplish all this in one day?

My learning is progressive. I email or call him with
questions. But, i'm getting most of it myself. Something
clicked.

How would we do it with our families?

that is kind of broad.. ask me specifics... or i'd still be
typing when your kids are in college ;)

> I really have problems controlling my temper when I am
> already stressed out and then C__ is hurting me:

Me too.. i was abused... my mom was psycho... and i had
problems with anger.. i took it personally when my 6 yr old
wouldn't clean her room... i would sometimes cry is was so
strung out.. i didn't wanna spank but i didn't know what to do
instead.. so i spanked.. and then spanking didn't work.. and
then my dogs went nuts and i called this trainer and he showed
me how to do it.

pulling my hair, scratching me, slapping me, etc.

Mine hit me on purpose alot.. scratching.. climbing on me..
hurting me and then laughing.

Now as I post.. please don't think im trying to be a know it
all.. i simply wanna relay what i have learned... as it is
i've only been spank free for a week now and yell free for two
days (my neighbors two streets over are happy :)

Children, dogs, people.. they do thinks wrong because it
illicits your
ultimate attention. Does your 3 year old enjoy fingerpainting
on walls? no... do they enjoy fighting the minute you pick up
the phone?? No.

They *know* they can command your attention.. and that's
what they
want. same reason your dogs fight.. they think it is
controlling you.

Your kids want you watching their every move.. making sure
they eat.. dont talk to strangers.. because it means you are
watching THEM and not them watching you as it should be. they
should stay within x feet of you.. because they like mom and
she's cool and she keeps em safe... they shouldn't run and
expect you to chase them.. because you won't always be there
to chase them... that's how kids die or get lost.

When they learn to follow you.. it's all good.

Now, take my 19 mo old. She had this habit of sipping 4 oz
from her bottle and demanding more. if i didn't refill it..
she threw a hgue fit. Now she hands me her bottle and says
more.. and i tickle her... then i pick up her bottle and
pretend im drinking it.. i offer her a drink and snatch it
back saying MY Baba!! She wants that bottle.. so she takes it
and drinks it.. even tho i didn't refill it. we had a huge
problem with them taking things they cant have and when i
wanted it they ran... now i give the baby (19mo) my finger..
and she grabs it.. and i wiggle and shout My finger! that's
mine! Gimme it back.. playfully.. and she resists.. and i go
"Ooh.. can i have it please?" and she gives it to me and i
gleefully say Thank you! and she says you're welcome.. and i
give her the finger back... then i hand her say a lighter...
and we wrestle for a minute.. and i say... can i have that???
and she gives it over etc. Of course sometimes she'll have a
cool! book! and ill ask can i have that.. and shell say No.
and i say that's ok! and tickle her or snap my fingers and
say good girl naya.. good job.. then ill start my game again
and wrestle and try to take it gently... then.. can i have
that??? she gives it over. this works with everything now.

> Or when he's ripping up my homework or something like
> that.

Yea... with the dog training you hide nothing.. no forced
control. you set the dog up for fail.. so you can distract
and praise and erase the thought.. same with the kids. Put
some unimportant paper all over.. when he goes to touch it..
make a sound and distract him.. then good boy, that's a nice
baby!... then repeat.. the minute he goes for the paper and
breaks the thgouth you throw him in the air and praise like
mad!

> How would I apply this in those situations? Also, what do
> you do in 'danger' situations (until you're close enough
> to distract them) - climbing on things, sticking metal
> objects into electrical outlets, trying to get into the
> oven, etc.?

Use your judgement.. if you have the distance/time to
distract... do it.. if you don't... pick them up and away..
but act like it's to throw em in the air.. so they don't know
youre forcing control by phsycially removing them... cuz when
you force control.. with the come command when you want your
dog away from something... or when you pull a dirty shoe from
your baby's mouth.. you put value on it.

Like when your kid puts a penny in its mouth.. youll try to
pry its mouth open to get it... and he'll clamp right down..
you gave that penny VALUE! it's not just a piece of crap..
mom WANTS IT!

so.. instead you make a game.. say you want em to smit it
out... walk somewhere else... attract their attention.. be
kinda sneaky... odds are the thing in their mought will get
annoying and they'll spit it out when they walk toward you...
if all else fails.. pry it outta their smiling jaws... snatch
em up away from falling down... but only when you have to..
then work realy hard to overcome that forced control.

Also don't make a big deal about it.. or else theyll learn not
only to command your attention, but also mom will always catch
me so she is watching me.. not me watching her.

> I never realized how spirited C__ was until I started
> tending other kids.

those are my kids. I have had social workers with their
degrees in child development stop offering me services cuz
they couldn't handle my kids... my friends call mine the
obstinate kids.

> They're docile kittens compared to C__! This brings up
> another question - what do you do when YOUR child is the
> bully?

if you catch it before it happens.. loud sound.. big
distraction and PRAISE. if you catch it afterward... distract
and say oh my goodness! and pay attention to the other kid...
he wont get the attention... then explain how that hurts.
odds are your kid won't hurt another kid if he truly
understands its not nice.

> C__ is always beating the other boy over the head when he
> comes over.
> We don't hit in anger in our family

i have.. everyone does in my family... i did it a few times
over 4 years... but that is because i didn't know how not to.
i know now.. and i wanna tell everyone i can.. so someone else
doesn't spank their kids due to a lack of knowledge.

> (we do it playfully sometimes, so we are curtailing that
> in case it is giving him ideas)

my kids, 6yo, 3yo and 19 month old, favorite game is chasing
around the house (all 4 of us) with wooden spools yelling at
the top of our lungs "I'm gonna beat your a$$.. HA HA HA... no
IM gonna beat YOUR a$$ MU HA HA HA" my neighbors prolly
think im nuts.. but the kids love it dog even plays too

> but I admit that after I have been trying to get him to go
> to sleep for 45 minutes, I get a little rough sometimes.
> It's really frustrating. He'll be dead tired - eyes
> bright red, fussy, eyes almost closing every 5 seconds.

It gets worse... they all do it around that time.. they don't
want to sleep.. andyou know what? they don't grow out of it
until they're parents :) it's one of those times you have to
use your patience and keep distracting and praising.

> So I'll take him into the bedroom, and lay down to nurse
> him. He'll nurse for about 5 seconds and then jump up and
> run to the window and start bending the blinds.

he wants you upset.. he wants your undivided attention. you
have to refuse it.. no evil eye.. no "conner" quiet or not..
no anger.. complete nonchalance.. they have to have a total
complete entire lack fo negative attention.. and all they'll
be able to do is sit back and enjoy the positive!

One shout.. one name call.. one No! and it takes awhile to
work up to the positive only.

> So I gently pick him up and lay him back down.

try not to.. but if you have to ok

> And we repeat the process over 10000 times.

when he goes to sit up.. when yous see the thought on his
face.. distract with sound and follow with praise or a song or
giggle.

> Then I get frustrated and lay him down less gently.

better than my method of plop em in the crib and let em cry.
No anger.. stay calm.. meditate, pray.. breath.. try to
remember they will not always be this small.. and youll never,
ever for anything get it back. it's what im using

> That makes him cry, which is the last straw that
> FINALLY gets him to nurse to sleep.

He got you riled up.. what he wanted.. time to sleep.

> Writing it out, I thought of something. He must have a
> lot of excess tension he needs to release before sleeping,
> and finally crying releases it for him.

no way... crying isn't a release.. sometimes.. maybe for
some people.. crying is frustration, pain, hunger,
sadness... sometimes joy.. sometimes tension.. but not
because of his life.. because he's insecure... their dealing
with negative and positive.. and thats what makes em
insecure.

> Any good ways to do this that don't involve crying?

distraction and praise.. if all else fails get up and dance..
fast for day.. slow rocking at night.

> Turning on soft music and swaying in the sling used to
> work for us, but now he either grabs at everything he can
> reach or bends over backwards until he's hanging upside
> down.

cuzhe knows what you're doing. hold him instead.. or sit him
in your lap on the bed and rock

> Putting the sling over his shoulders to prevent that
> doesn't work either. He acts like he is being tortured
> and screams and fights to
> get out.

becuase it is forced control.

> Katie

Amanda


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