Dog Discussion: "DOG WHISPERER - The Complete Third Season" 6-DVD Set

"DOG WHISPERER - The Complete Third Season" 6-DVD Set
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2008-07-05 11:19:29 EST

John Adams
2008-09-30 12:23:54 EST
Jan wrote:

Cesar Milan is the greatest.

2008-09-30 12:45:22 EST
John Adams <> said in

> Jan wrote:
> Cesar Milan is the greatest.

Is the greatest at what? I like his timing and distractions.

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

2008-09-30 13:04:34 EST
HOWEDY matty you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin dog abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic life-long incurable malignant malici-
HOWES mental case and illegal doggy day care
and "agility school" operator FRAUD and SCAM

"Rocky" <> wrote in message

"Rocky" <> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!




> John Adams <> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.activities:
>> Jan wrote:
>> Cesar Milan is the greatest.


cesar millan a.k.a. z dog wheeesper is a dog abusin COWARD
like yourself, matty, who jerks chokes shocks bribes and intimidates
innocent defenseless dumb critters.

ANY WON who's ever seen him HURT and INTIMIDATE
dogs and believes he's not a dog abusin MENTAL CASE is,
themselves, A DOG ABUSIN MENTAL CASE <{}'; ~ ) >

Here's the SCIENCE:

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative reinforcement"
(1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY model involves
the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse, Skinner has never to my
knowledge, demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced as a
punishment and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov:

"Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV

"Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative
physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of
Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy
of Sciences, Moscow:

The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and
freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared
with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the
resistance to coercion," respectively, described by
contemporary ethologists.

On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose,"
conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive
emotions arising in connection with the perfection of
a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at
a given moment, serve as the reinforcement.

The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a
phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction
as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was
demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the
state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in
rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical
activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e.,
by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man.

Simonov PV</h4>
Publication Types:<ul><li>Review</li><li>Review,
tutorial</li></ul>PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681</blockquote>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov

Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And
Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The
Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies.

"All animals learn best through play," Lorenz.

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated.

Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement
model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well
established in research than the various dynamic

Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of
programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement;
3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST
SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers."

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).

Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the
need for child THERAPY through changing the
clinical emphasis from clinical to parental
HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!

The Embry Study:

"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.

Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact.

Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."


"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."

B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment

Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused,
actually has been proven not effective at long-
term behavioral change, and creatures will find
other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom
and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter
1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states:

If we no longer resort to torture in what we call
the civilized world, we nevertheless still make
extensive use of punitive techniques in both
domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for
good reasons. Nature if not God has created man
in such a way that he can be controlled punitively.

People quickly become skillful punishers (if not,
thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative
positive measures are not easily learned.

The need for punishment seems to have the support
of history, and alternative practices threaten the
cherished values of freedom and dignity.

Fear involved with punishment causes frustration:
with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy.
Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive
reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior
have proved very valuable.


In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY, you may
substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock
witholding rewards, attention, and affection:

Psychological Effects

At issue is the question, --Do electronic training
devices elicit psychological responses?

"This section cites several research studies in which the
psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices
was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine
the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods
until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in
a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on
what it is, but it varies from dog to dog.

It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect
of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired
need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild.

Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long
term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004).
Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334).

The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in
dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two
dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general
obedience and protection training.

One group was trained with shock collars and the other group
without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars
displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched
yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and
tongue flicking.

It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed
walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to
show signs of stress while in the company of their handler.

The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful;
receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock
group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner
(or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even
outside of the normal training context.

They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at
stake, at least in the presence of their owners.

This study has come under considerable fire because the experience
of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not
stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the
experience of being shocked during training.


Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
<{); ~ ) >

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400

You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.

I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.

This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!

The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.

Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.

A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.

Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.

The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.

The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.

They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)

Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.

It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.

One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!

Even Skinner understood this!

And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter,

Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov

What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

Who's Who Honoree since 1983

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume
in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed
in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big
books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.

These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.


> Is the greatest at what?

Wizard's Syndrome, kinda JUST LIKE HOWE
your own dogs got, matty <{}'; ~ ) >

> I like his timing and distractions.

LikeWIZE, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And
Horsey Wizard likes *your* timing and distractions,
matty, you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten lyin dog
abusin punk thug coward active acute chronic life-long
incurable malignant maliciHOWES mental case and
illegal doggy day care and "agility school" operator
FRAUD and SCAM ARTIST <{}: ~ ) >

Author and professional dog trainer LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

Thanks, Jerry, that's a helpful bit from the guy
who started it all. This shows what we've been
saying: that teaching the dog to play fetch,
regardless of its usefulness in the eventual
search part of the training program, is a
powerful motivator and reinforcer.

Of course these idiots (pardon my being blunt)
don't see using food and clickers as being a
form of coercion. Maybe they've been hypnotized
by Karen Pryor, et al:

Freeze Frame <{}: ~ ) >

From: canis55 <>
Date: 1999/09/28
Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness

Dear Marilyn,

I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great.
Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a
leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea.

Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video.

The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a
leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training
video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some
of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs.

It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates
any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they
do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to
love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers.

I don't think this is because they love something else more.

I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent
to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates
in them for that matter.

It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight
of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly
explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to
create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of
their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped
and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the
violence and pain.

Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think
a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature,
that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them
to participate.

Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read
this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me.

I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them
(for their own good) and what my country men did to the African
peoples for nearly half a century.

It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much
madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most
of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered
willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request
it in a manner they can comprehend.

If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do
something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it

The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I
just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about.
I trains'em as I sees'em.


It's OVER, matty, you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten
lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
MENTAL CASE. You can't post your LIES IDIOCY
INSANITY and ABUSE here abHOWETS nodoGdameneD

From: Rocky <>
Date: 24 Jul 2004 04:00:53 GMT
Local: Fri, Jul 23 2004 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?

Cam said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Everything he preaches is very positive, no
> correction, no punishment, all praise and love.

You are very wrong.

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 02:40:42 GMT
Subject: Re: house training

steve braun said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I dont like the insinuations that i am abusing
> my dog when i am NOT.

Then you may want to ignore the Puppy Wizard/Jerry Howe.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <>
Date: 16 Aug 2002 18:40:54 GMT
Subject: Re: training a dog...
nancyj wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> The pressure meant a GOOD possibility if she could
> just push up hard enough, I'd understand. I did
> eventually <G>. I switched to a light tap!

Yup, once a dog learns to sit, a light tap
works as a reminder when they "forget".
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

But "NEVER HIT your dog", eh, matty?

From: "Nevyn" <>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:05:45 +0800

Subject: Re: puppy wizzards training manual.


I used to be like you.

Then I found a was called... the
wits end dog training manual.... and then
there was light..and perfectly trained dogs.
Nevyn E.D.
Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer

"Yu agonna get whats comin' to you...for
all the bad bad things you to do"

"steve braun" <> wrote in message

> (steve braun) wrote in message

> > Hello, Mr. puppy wizzard, how do i find a copy of
> > your manual. Do you have a link that takes me to it?
> > I think i would like to read it.
> > Now i have another question for you in regards to
> > walking your dog. How do you feel about the gentle
> > leader? I bought one for each of my pups and the
> > difference in walking them is unbelievable. If you are
> > not sure what the gentle leader is check out their web
> > site at If you are as good as you say
> > you are i want to read your manual.
> > thanks,
> > Steve

> > P.s. by the way my pup doesnt pee as soon as i put
> > him in his crate its after he's been in for a while
> > and cant hold it anymore that he pee's

> Howdy, jerry,
> well i started reading your manual, Im going to
> perfectly honest with you I thought last night when
> i started reading your posts you were full of crap
> but the more i read the more i could tell that you
> really do care about dogs. That is why asked for
> a copy of your manual.
> I really like your analogy on barking that was very
> interesting and gave it a perspective i never even thought
> of. As far as your praising the dogs when they are
> misbehaving i still dont understand how that works (i
> didnt get all that far in the manual yet.
> But i must say my female was clawing at the couch so i
> praised her like you say to do, i praised her twice for
> it and she stopped and came over to me.
> So i think what you have to say has merit, And for one
> am anxious to finish the book and get started because
> i love my dogs and really am looking forward to interacting
> with them on a positive note all of the time.
> This may be a little premature jerry, but
> Thank you
> Steve

Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in
> > Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug coward
> > mental cases too much credit for the ability to influence

Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just BAITING these lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >

> You really are a piece of work.

INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS
in her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual and REPORTED
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS
LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >

You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >

> Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?

Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, matty, JUST
LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL dog Rocky is DYIN from
Wizard's SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusin
punk thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty, and you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <> wrote in message
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning

> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
> Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <> wrote in message
Rosa Palm\ufffdn wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?

Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I
only use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when
it's reallyreally important that my dogs get away from

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang *
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco

From: Rocky <>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior

> One of the things that frustrates methe most about
> agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
> are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be
> corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take
correction so much to heart -- I'll try something
different. Right now, he's just getting the confidence
to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but
only when I'm gone during summertime days -
maybe an hour at the most. (Other than hot days,
my dogs are always with me.)

While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised
from the day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not.

Rocky will go looking for food even in areas where
there's no possibility of food.

The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


From: Rocky (
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B* (Jerry Howe) wrote in

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume
> that you are suggesting that the people knee the
> dog in the chest. If that's what you meant, just
> say it, instead of beating around the bush to avoid
> criticism from people like me. That kind of crap has
> got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods
> of dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?


"dallygirl" <> said in
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.



Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal sgt grant teebon, RAAF:

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds
To Pain And Punishment, High Tolerance For
Correction, Escalation Of Correction To A Level
Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him,
Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog
Will Want To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon,

Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal captain
arthur haggerty, USArmy K-9 Corps:

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK"
Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When
You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up
The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping
Sound To The Dog."

lying frosty dahl writes:

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.

Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,

Now you are ready to progress to what most
people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb;

even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that

Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy
against its lips and pinching its ear.

if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"


"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"Housebreaking Problems:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.

Be consistent in your handling.

To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.

An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.

It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.



"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"J1Boss" <> wrote in message

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss

"sionnach" <> wrote in message

> "J1Boss" <> wrote in message
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.


> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't

janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).




"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.


From: BethF (
Subject: Re: to treat or not to treat
Date: 2002-01-14 12:50:27 PST

> "Jerry Howe" <> wrote in message

> > And you jerk and choke your dogs on pronged spiked pinch
> > choke collars lock them in boxes and call that training
> > and spray Binaca in their eyes to quite their crate anxiety barking...

I dont' jerk or choke my dog (the little one is
too little yet for a pinch collar). They simply
wear pinch collars.

It prevents any jerking or choking on their part.

I do crate my dogs - the big one only at the dog
club and to travel, and the little one so he can
become accustomed to being in a crate.

He is learning to enjoy it and to use it as a place
to rest from the playing that he and Kavik do
I used binaca to quiet Kavik's in class whining
that disturbed the class. It would be quite difficult
to binaca a dog that is in a crate.

I did hit him in the eye accidentally, and stopped
using it at that time. Jerry, have you NEVER made
an error in training the dogs you have trained?

How many dogs have you trained exactly?
Can you list some references here - I
would like to contact some of your former
clients to get a reference or two?



lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.



"Well, actually the binaca worked but after i
got him in the eye it was not a possibility to
be using that."

"Actually, the most common use of this technique
(and it is quite common) is with TABASCO sauce
either mixed with water in a spray bottle or on a rag
that you can stick in the dogs mouth instead of spraying
(after our experience I would suggest this method if I
was going to use this technique again). My dog likes
tabasco so that didnt' work for us.

Binaca was suggested as an alternative from a very
well respected dog trainer from the lower 48, however
I don't think she counted on his flailing his head in a
desperate attempt to get away from the sprayer causing
me to miss."



"BethF" <> wrote in message

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.


"BethF" <>
wrote in message

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.


"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will
Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.


Here's tommy sorenson of sorenson's Retriever PUPPY MILL
and SHOCK COLLAR trainin SALES aka the miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin child an spHOWES abusin anonymHOWES
active accute chronic life long incurable mental case punk
thug coward aka not so handsome, not so gentle, not so manly
jackass, not even jack morrison, aka joey finochiarrio aka

tommy sez:
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

And then he sez:

"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.

Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to

make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.

Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.

If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.

When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."

I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."

You mean like HOWE when you HOWEsbreak a dog an
you beat IT with a switch or heavy man's leather belt and
tie him next to his evil deed and return to BEAT HIM every
twenty minutes, tommy?

tommy SEZ:

"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.


Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens"

"Swatting a dog on the nose is always the wrong thing to do."

> Or do you think he got off easy?

Perhaps we should just KILL HIM.


"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.


"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.



I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily
~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.



"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <> wrote in message

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <> wrote in message

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey


Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context,"

sinofabitch writes:

> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,

No, there was ONLY WON quote.

> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,


> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"


Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "students" paul an Muttley:

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote

It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death

"Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote

Hello everyone:

If you have followed some of my posts, you know
something about the ongoing story of Muttley, the
large GSD/Chow dog I have been trying to adopt
or place in a better home.

I will add a bit more history later in this post.

Last Tuesday, toward the end of Janet's obedience
class, Muttley and I had just finished fairly successfully
performing a sit/stay/come routine, and then he was
sitting by my side.

The final routine was to be a "down", which Muttley
has had some difficulty with, and frankly I have not
had the time to work with him much on that.

I was kneeling at his side, trying to hold his collar
while pushing his front legs down to the position,
while he resisted. Suddenly he lunged, knocking
me over onto the parking lot, and I lost grip of the
leash as I reflexively broke my fall.

Muttley took the opportunity to attack a young black
male Lab to my left, and it was a very brutal attack.
Janet and the instructors tried to gain control, and as
soon as I could get to my feet I grabbed the leash and
pulled him off.

That was the end of the class, and the other dog,
Bernie, was taken to an animal hospital for treatment.

When everyone had left, Janet counseled me about
what should be done about Muttley.

She said this was more than ordinary aggression,
and only intensive (and expensive) one on one
training would have any chance at working, and
in any case, he was not suited to group training.

She advised me that Muttley could be dangerous,
and she recommended that he be euthanized.

"They can't all be saved".



Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote


If I did not have to worry about my cat, I would
probably keep him, and I am certain I could avoid
any more dangerous episodes. I probably would
not have taken him to obedience classes at this time
if that was not such a difficult issue, and if people
here had not essentially shamed me into doing so.

Then he would only be a bratty dog with a mind of
his own, but he would not have been identified as



Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "student" paul:

#2 - 6/05/07

>> When I was training him under Janet's supervision
>> I was instructed to give it a ? firm yank as a correction.

> I advised you to use a prong collar, not give firm
> yanks on a chain choke collar. I hate the things.

>> She was able to get his attention with
>> just a quick tug, but I had to yank on it
>> hard enough to lift him off his feet to get
>> him to respond. Looking back now, I think
>> it was based on his fear, which he had for
>> her (as an unknown), but not for me
>> (whom he had learned to trust).

> He wasn't afraid of me. He knew I was a
> confident trainer. Fear has no place in dog
> training, as I told you THEN.

> Janet

It seems to me that applying stern corrections, by
popping a choker chain, prong collar, or whatever,
is a way to ensure compliance by instilling a fear
of further punishment.

Sure, if it is administered very consistently
by a confident trainer, the dog soon learns
to obey. There was no positive reinforcement,
so what remains is negative.

Also, I recall the time you were going to show me
how I could get Muttley to take his rawhide treat
from me without lunging for it. When you offered

it to him, he refused to take it. This IMHO is likely
a fear behavior.

Things have changed a lot since then, and I have
learned a lot, and Muttley has settled down quite
a bit. I probably still give him too much freedom
to think on his own, but that's just my way of
doing things, and that's probably not going to
change much. He may never win an obedience
medal, but I don't think he is dangerously out
of control, either.

Paul and Muttley


"I thought I was told that the way to get the dog to go
down was to make him sit and then step on the leash.
That was awkward and didn't seem to work.

I will confess that I only tried the "down" position
once or twice at home, and I also often used it
instead of "Off" when I wanted him to stop
jumping on me or elsewhere I didn't want him to be.

I had to give him corrections every few seconds,
and also just about kick him, to keep him at my
left side.

Muttley is really a very sweet and loving dog, but
he needs more socialization with other dogs. However,
it is very likely that I will have him put down in a week."

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote

It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),


THAT'S quite a SUCCESS STORY, ain't it, paulie?



Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07

"Janet Boss" <> wrote in message

It seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.

What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.

I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.

While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.

We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
Janet Boss



"dallygirl" <> said in
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.



We AIN'T GOT nodoGdameneD agendas here, do we <{}: ~ ( >

2008-09-30 13:26:28 EST
HOWEDY john adams you pathetic miserable
stinkin rotten lyin anonymHOWES coward,

"John Adams" <> wrote in message
> Jan wrote:
> Cesar Milan is the greatest.

you stir them up by citing animal abuse <{}: ~ ( >

cesar millan, 'Z Dog Wheeesperer'-

I Went To Train A Dog In Timbucktu;
And In My Trainin Bag I Carried...

HOWEDY FellHOWE Dog Lovers,

What's in YOUR dog trainin bag that heelps you
"connect instinctually, emotionally, physically"?

Some thoughts to guide you in dog trainin:
"Don't give any emotions. Just be in the moment."

What TOOLS are you missin after you've EXXXHAUSTED
and your dog is STILL acting FEARFUL and AGGRESSIVE

In the past the ces has relied on tiki lanterns, garden
chairs, laundry baskets, spray bottles, an assortment
of choking and shocking devices including the "ILLUSION

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him
a stern correction" --Janet Boss

"J1Boss" <> wrote in message
He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss

"sionnach" <> wrote in message

> "J1Boss" <> wrote in message
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher than a 5 with it, even with an
> > insensitive dog like a Lab.


> I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but I had a pointer ignore
> a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.



PERHAPS you've been missin a TENNIS RACKET?

Today the ces taught us HOWE to overcome the fear
aggression of a nasty Blue Heeler by stalking IT usin
a tennis racket to give IT EXXXORCISE, DISCIPLINE
and THEN AFFECTION <{}: ~ ) >

His clueless owner was SO HAPPY she CRIED at finally
havin a NORMAL dog who could tolerate accepting visitors.

What's in YOUR trainin bag, FellHOWE Dog Lovers?

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing,
Grand, Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard's trainin bag CON-TRAINS
two 6' double thickness Army style leather trainin leads with
matching 1 1/4" leather collars, two 6' light weight nylon leads
with matching 1/2" adjustable nylon collars for small dogs,
two 20 foot long lines *(1 light weight neoprene for small dogs
an 1 heavy manilla for large dogs), a 16' Flexi, 4 soda cans
with 6 pennies inside crushed square an taped up, a squeaky
toy, two clickers, two silent whistles, two police style whistles,
two laser lights, a frisbee, a tennis ball, two nail clipers *(1
guillotine style, 1 bone cutter style), 1 bottle of Quick Stop
Astringent Powder *(JUST IN CASE), a doggy comb an brush,
a flea comb, a basket style muzzle for medium size dogs and
a ladies nylon stocking as a muzzle for small or giant dogs
**(which have NEVER been needed, but they're there JUST IN
CASE), and of curse, the ubiquitHOWES RUBBER CHICKEN <{}: ~ ) >

SuspiciHOWESLY missin are the pronged spiked pinch and
slip choke and electronic static like stimulation devices <{}: ~ ( >

PERHAPS THAT'S on accHOWENTA The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing, Grand, Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And Horsey Wizard
devices and has NEVER used a tiki lantern, garden chair, laundry
basket, spray bottle, or an assortment of choking and shocking
devices OR relied on EXXXCESSIVE EXXXORCISE and
PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE or alpha roll to psychologically train
innocent defenseless dumb critters.

cesar millan is a dog abusin coward and should be ARRESTED and
PROSECUTED for animal abuse and upon completion of his prison
sentence, DEPORTED to Sunny Mehico <{}: ~ ( >

In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >


2008-09-30 14:00:05 EST
HOWEDY shelly you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten
lyin dog abusin life-long incurable malignant malici-

"Shelly" <> wrote in message
> Rocky <> wrote in
>> Is the greatest at what?
> Self-promoter?
>> I like his timing and distractions.
> In general, I think his handling is good.

Yeah? HOWEver, you're a pathetic miserable stinkin rotten
lyin dog abusin MENTAL CASE, remember, shelly??

Dateline: rec.pets.dogs.* newsgroups

Breaking Mental Illness News, JUNE 2004!

H* @ 47 lbs!

Hattie, a boxer owned by shelly couvrette is
now down to 47 pounds. Couvrette, a librarian
at Indiana U. who suffers from obsessive/
compulsive disorder (OCD), was told by three
different Veterinarians that Hattie was "way
too skinny" when Hattie weighed 53 lbs.

Undeterred by that, and the reactions from
family and strangers on the street, shelly
continued shopping for vets and cutting
calories until Hattie, a chronic counter
surfer at age 5 now weighs just 47 lbs!

shelly finds all the symptoms of a starving
dog searching for nutrients to be entertaining.

Couvrette has developed a unique
technique to fool dogs who are having
pangs of starvation. She feeds them
green beans and canned pumpkin, so
there will be some "filler" in their
stomachs when they give her the
"I'm Starving--no, really" routine.

shelly is not nearly as obsessed with her
own weight, and has never been told by a
medical professional that she is "way too
skinny." If so, that medical professional would
be end up on this crazy person list as well.



All in the Mental Family

shelly: severe OCD
shelly's mom: chronic depression
shelly's brother: severe BiPolar

Severe OCD, depression, prescribed Paxil
for mental illness, but claims she does
not take it, resulting in an obsessive
basket case online persona. Posts more than
any other female in all dog newsgroups

(familial mental illness, possibly related
to family bed) obsessively starves her
dogs according to friends, family,
strangers and 3 different vets, but
not herself (see below). Still thinks
of herself as a five year old ballerina
despite the fact that she is a fat
adult in her mid thirties.

Over shih tzu's being fed almost as much
as hattie (page to top)


(most valuable psychotic) Nessa loses MVP title due to
inactivity so shelly takes over by default)

ALL NEW as of 9/19/2004
A SPECIAL BONUS ON shelly couvrette,

All in the Mental Family

shelly: severe OCD
shelly's mom: chronic depression
shelly's brother: severe BiPolar

shelly's dogs are victims of Munchausens
Anorexia by proxy Syndrome. Here, she goes
off the deep end because she OCD'd on a
conversation she overheard about the quantity
of food being fed to her coworker's son's
shih tzus.

hattie, shelly's starving boxer (who,
theoretically, if she was not being
systematically starved by a psychotic
owner) should weigh at least five times
more than a shih tzu, yet she doesn't
get five times as much food. She
doesn't even get twice as much.

Can you say "KUCKOOOO!!!"



one of my cow-orkers was just on the phone
with her son.....

and, get this! the were discussing feeding
amounts. her Shih Tzus eat more than half
as much as my dogs! i don't know if that's
because Iams is less calorically dense than
the foods my dogs eat or what, but i'm
boggled. *boggled*, i tell ya'.

so, anyway, i've bitten my tongue nearly
in half.

-- shelly (perfectly foul wench) and
elliott and harriet


"when i got harriet she was emaciated, so
i asked my vet for advice on slowly adding
weight to her. six months later i took
harriet in for her spring check-up and my
vet was surprised that at how thin she still
--shelly couvrette


"<raises hand> i've been told by three
different vets that harriet (53lbs) is
*way* too skinny. we're still vet-shopping,

--shelly couvrette


"if you really can't resist it when your dog pulls
the "i'm starving!" routine <G>, you can give
him some frozen green beans or a small amount
of plain pureed pumpkin. i would also suggest
putting the food out of his sight. i keep my
food--still inside the bags, which are tightly
rolled down--inside trash cans in the closed
laundry room. that keeps it fresh and keeps
it out of my dogs' sight."

--shelly couvrette


"heh. i get the opposite response. people think
that poor little harriet is positively starved
to death. i've actually had people stop me in
the pet supply shop and tell me that i need to
fatten her up!"

--shelly couvrette


"i think that may be part of the problem. who
wants to go to a vet who tells you you're
hurting your .widdle precious? i think the
other part is that some vets really don't
*realize* that what they consider proper weight
is fat. after having been told by a couple of
vets that my dogs are too thin, i've got a dim
view of vets on that topic."

--shelly couvrette

--shelly's mom


"my mom is kinda that way, but not *as* bad.
she thinks that harriet is awfully skinny,
so feeding her table snax is okay. she
tells me that just a bite won't hurt."

--shelly couvrette


"while i was sick,
elliott was *pretty* good (he got really
needy and pathetic toward the end), but
harriet turned into 47lbs of pure

--shelly couvrette


shelly's fat face ouvrette/Wshelly2.jpg

There are a lot of big fat women on these groups who
starve their dogs out of vanity, but shelly is a special case.

shelly is more than a little bit beyond the pale

Shelly has OCD, and maybe she's just a little
obsessive about measuring out extra tiny and
discrete portions with a tiny measuring
cup, or counting out pieces of green bean or
pumpkin that she gives her dogs when they give
her the "I'm Starving" routine. When grandma
tried to give Hattie a snack, shelly probably
went apeshit, because it was in violation of
her Obsessive need to oversee every tiny
calorie that goes into her widdle precious'

shelly's a special case, a special kind of
dog abuser.


in late september, 2004 shelly left the group
because diddy was a meanie pants to her.
shelly's illness prevented her from seeing
the reality that she was the # 1
meanie pants in the history of the dog
newsgroups. We hope she gets the treatment
she needs.


Michael Further Explains The Mental Illness List
In the past, before Michael fixed things, this was a
way to shut people up and discredit people. Calling
them mentally ill. shelly told us not to even talk
to the mentally ill.

But it turned out most of the people doing the
accusing and finger pointing and "you better take
your meds" etc... were mentally ill themselves.

That's a huge story, and I SCOOPED IT.

MaryBeth for instance, was constantly telling
people to take their meds. Once I started to
do a little research, the floodgates opened
and an amazing story unfolded.



Thanks Soup.

You'd think your list got 'm covered, Soup to NUTS, eh???

But you ain't.

There's STILL a few loose SCREWBALLS missin.

For starters, you forgot the cutters and sexual sadists, Soup.

Look up susan frazier and looney toons aka laura arlov
an marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog an child abuser PhD
psycho clHOWEN <{}: ~ ( >

If You Ain't On The List, PLEASE,:


(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders specific
to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come forward,
we can help each other with our problems.

Remember, mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.
It's not your fault if you have a defective brain which may
cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite and/or idiot
and/or robot without your being aware of it).

Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and have
been added to this by mistake, so we can make our corrections
and remove you from the crazy person list.


2008-09-30 15:30:20 EST
HOWEDY judy a.k.a. queen mother, you pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active accute
chronic life long incurable malignant mental case,

"Judy" <> wrote in message
> "Shelly" <> wrote in message
> news:Xns9B29833F0A2E8shellycatsidhnet@
>> Rocky <> wrote in
>>> Is the greatest at what?
>> Self-promoter?
>>> I like his timing and distractions.
>> In general, I think his handling is good.
> The half dozen times I've seen him, I have always been impressed by his
> presence with the dogs.


> He has that je-ne-sais-quoi that dogs recognize.

Dogs know he's fixin to HURT and INTIMIDATE them
JUST LIKE HOWE you an your punk thug coward active
acute chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES

> Unfortunately, that is extremely difficult to teach to someone else.

No it AIN'T, judy. You an your pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES MENTAL
CASE PALS here have been doin that FOR YEARS an
NHOWE you're gettin it BACK IN SPADES, eh, judy??

> Not impossible but perhaps beyond the reach of the majority.

It's beyond the reach of DECENT HUMAN BEINGS, judy <{}: ~ ( >

> Yeah, his timing and distractions can certainly
> be learned by someone who wants to learn.

What "DISTRACTIONS," judy?


> And I agree about his handling.


An THAT'S HOWE COME you can't train your own
fear aggressive hyperactive HOWETA CON-TROLL
dogs, REMEMBER, judy??

> But his presence - that is something that you are either
> born with (which I suspect may be true for him

the ces is a SISSY man, judy <{}: ~ ( >

> and for a woman I knew who was the most incredible
> substitute middle school teacher) or that some people
> can learn (my mother learned from that teacher.

INDEED~! "Shit rolls DHOWEN hill," eh, judy??

> At her top form, she could walk into a noisy, rowdy, packed middle school
> cafeteria, say nothing or speak only a few words - not loudly, and have
> dead silence within 90 seconds.).

You mean she INTIMIDATED them, JUST
LIKE HOWE you PREFER <{}: ~ ( >

> Judy

From: "Judy" <>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:53:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Weekend Brag

<snip idiocy>

And yes, Spenser is also capable of acting as if I beat
him on a regular basis so I also get that point. He acts
that way if some OTHER dog is getting yelled at.

If, for instance, the bag of garbage got left on the floor
open and the dogs are starting to stick their heads in and
I yell, Spenser will act like it's the end of the world.

Sassy will back up a step, turn her head and give the
most perfect "What?" look. Spenser's feelings are hurt
if you yell at Sassy.

Sassy's feelings are impossible to hurt.


From: "Judy" <>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:11:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Approaching you dog with affection and via versa.

"Judy" <> wrote in message

> Spenser has a practice of flying through the newspaper into your lap if
> you're reading it rather than paying attention to him.

After I typed this, I got thinking - laughing about this
is definitely a small dog thing! Can you imagine one of
Melinda's dogs doing the same thing?

Although I wouldn't put it past most boxers I've known!
And at least a few of the Dobes!

Spenser likes to curl up with his feet tucked into hand.
And then he either tucks his chin also inside my hand or
rests it across my wrist.

Both he and Sassy also grind their teeth just a little
as they relax just before sleep.

It's pretty cool.


From: queenmother (
Subject: Re: Thanks and sorry
Date: 2002-02-21 17:13:36 PST

"luker" <> wrote in
> The way she looked at me. I am so sorry that I let
> her down. I hate myself and will never forgive
> myself. I promised her that I'd take care of her to
> the end. Who am I to decide when her life should end.

You did not let her down. You did take care of her to
the end. If she bit one of your children then she was
no longer herself. That was not the dog that she
wanted to be and she was not living the life that she
wanted to live. She needed you to take care of her
and make the decision and take the actions that she
could not. She knows that everything you did
for her you did out of love - love for her and for
your child.

She also loved your child and for her to attack indicates
that she was not herself and that she was not happy in
her life. Maybe with time you can remember her look
as one of love and trust that you would do the right
thing - which is what you believed with all your heart
that you were doing. That's the most you ever get.

> Now, I question my judgment.

And I can't tell you that you won't continue you to do
that for quite a while. I have had dogs put to sleep
when vets were telling me that it was not black and

You have to know your own dog and your own
situation. And that doesn't mean that you won't
second-guess but as you know, there's no taking it

I cried for a long time and beat myself up
over the last time - did I really do *everything* I
could have? It took perhaps a year before I could
have peaceful dreams about the dog again.

And in spite of all the second guessing, the only possible
end was always the same, I did what was best for the
dog. He was not happy in his life and I couldn't
promise either of us that it was going to improve any
time soon if ever.

>Maybe it was a freak accident. I'm sorry Sara.I miss
>you. Please forgive me. I'll never forgive myself.

You know, maybe it was. Most likely it was not. And
Sara has forgiven you because all she knows is love.
You have to remember that she gave you the purest love
there is and that it stays with you.

Sara will stay in your heart forever. You will probably
cry every time you think of her. Maybe forever.

But that just proves how much love there was.

Believe me, you're not alone.


From: "The Puppy Wizard" <>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 13:21:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Bad Kid vs Georgie

Geez queenie,

If Georgie "DID WELL" havin bitten a kid, a BAD
day for you, must be MURDER...

The Puppy Wizard sez we got dog abusers and
hypocrites, and apologists for dangerHOWEs dogs.

The Puppy Wizard. <};~ ) >

"queenmother" <> wrote in message

> "Deb" <modeb...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> > (BTW-we have some across children in the park several
> > times and he has behaved very gently with the well-
> >behaved variety).

> As I said before, I'd take every opportunity to have him with the
> well-behaved ones. Keep reminding him that kids are nice things. I think
> he proved he has remarkable restraint but I'd take every opportunity to
> reinforce it
> in his mind.

> The confusion of a loud party is hard for a dog that (like ours) is used
> to a fairly quiet, peaceful life. And you're distracted at the same time.

> Georgie did very well and I'm glad the kid's parents seem to recognize
> that.

> ~~Judy

deb brought Georgie to the SHELTER to GET MURDERED.

HOWEDY queenie,

"queenmother" <> wrote in message

> "dorothy" <> wrote in message
> > i cant give one of them back. i want to keep them all just train them
> > not to be aggresive. but what is with all the chatter in the reply?

> > is this normal for all questions that get asked on here?

> This is a discussion group,


> not a question and answer forum.

Seems every time you answer a question, SOMEbody
comes along behind you and rubs your nose into the
shit you spout.

> Yes, you can ask questions and may get answers.

That's the problem... Go ahead. Start DISScussin.

> But you also will be discussed.

Because the FACTS are beyond you.

> This involves asking questions back and talking
> about things that may not be specifically in your post.

Let's try to stay on topic. The question was and still IS,
HOWE to get three fighting puppies to get along, not the
OP's family, not the breeder's "ethics," not separating
them and locking them in boxes, not nuthin but HOWE
to train three dogs to live like PALS in the same HOWEShold.

Like as if a lying dog abusing doubletalking Thug coward like
you would know about ethics, morals, principles, integrity,
human decency or HOWE to handle a dog behavior problem.

> There are also a couple of trolls

I think we just IDENTIFIED one, queenie. That be YOU.

> who may or may not have responded to you.

You read my posts first, you mealy mouthed doubletalker.

> I can't tell since I have them kill filed


> and never see their posts.

You're a LIAR.

> You can choose to ignore any responses that you want.

Oh? Well THANK YOU for the warning.

> ~~Judy
> Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose.

Now, to answer the question, queenie? HOWE do you
make three fighting puppies PALS?

HOWEDY judy aka queenie,

Judy wrote:
> "Gwendy5281" <> wrote in message
> > Good grief! You do like to ramble and paise yourself don't you?
> Gwendy - ignore the idiot..

You're the IDIOT, judy. Your POSTED CASE HISTORY
of jerking and choking your "shelter rescue" dog
will PROVE IT, as we'll all see in the following:

> If you have a kill file, use it.

You're a little EMBARRASSED, eh judy?

> Most of here never see his posts.

Then HOWE COME I'm the #1 topic of discussion
as any searh on MY Archives will prove?

> Watch also for the crossposting that he inserts
> sending your message and his response to several other groups -

ain't it, judy. You've been reading and posting
your IDIOCY and ABUSE for years on my forums.

> many of them totally unrelated.

No, they're all related, judy.

> You are going to have a great time with your new beagle.

You mean, in two years when she finally HOWEsbreaks IT, judy?

> Lucky dog that he found you.

"LUCK is for SUCKERS," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >

> Now. Housebreaking a previously kenneled beagle.

Dogs HOWEsbreak INSTINCTIVELY at four weeks of age, judy.

> Going to take some time and patience on your part.

Only if she follows your ADVICE, judy. HOWEsbreaking
can be accomplished in WON DAY if we DON'T DO what you
and your punk thug coward mental case pals recommend.

> He is used to peeing fairly near his bedding area.

That's absurd, judy.

> He not only doesn't know what he's doing is wrong,

That's ABSURD, judy.

> he believes it is acceptable.

That's INSANE, judy.

> I assume that Sam manages to poop outside?

That's IRRELEVENT, judy.

> If so, then you have one foot up on the problem.


> He does have a level of understanding of keeping his living area clean.

You mean his CRATE, judy.

> There surely is a marking element in there - as you noted.

That's BECAUSE he's LOCKED IN A BOX, judy.

> First step to reduce that is to get him neutered.

That's CRUEL and INSANE, judy, and probably won't heelp.

> At his age,

A dog is a dog, judy.

> that won't stop it but it gives it a boost.

You're full of crap, judy.

> Second - Nature's Miracle.

That AIN'T gonna heelp, judy.

> Clean everything he has ever peed on with it.

Dogs DO NOT mark over their own scent, judy.

> If you can get a black light to check for stains, all the better.

That's ABSURD, judy.

> You have to get the odor off those indoor marking posts.


> Third - I'd continue the crating

Of CURSE, because you're a IDIOT, judy.

> when you can't be there with him.


> When you> are walking him and he pees, don't just praise him.
> Praise him, pet him, throw a little party until anyone watching thinks you
> are totally out of your mind.

That's absurd, judy. THAT will DISTRACT the dog from
THINKIN of what he just done to "earn his praise.

> Locate spots outside that he pees on your walks
> and take him there as soon as you go outside.

You mean instead of just teaching him to
relieve hisself in WON approve spot in
two minutes flat?


> If do see him lift a leg inside - or even start
> the sniffing that usually comes just before it - give him an "uh-uh"


> and take him outside to one of those spots as quickly
> as you can get a leash on him and shoes on you.

You mean, instead of teaching him to ASK to go HOWET?

> These trips outside are to pee, not to play.

You're a IMECILE.

> When he pees, he goes right back inside.

Oh? You mean, as a REWARD?

> If he only plays, he goes right back inside

And lock IT in the box again?

> and you try again in a few minutes - half an hour
> or sooner if he gets sniffing again.


That won't train him to ask OR to CON-TROLL hisself, judy.

> There is an added level of difficulty to housebreaking a dog who has been
> kennelled.

That's ABSURD, judy. HOWEsbreakin is INSTINCTIVE
at four weeks of age, judy.

> I know a cocker spaniel owner whose pup had been raised on wire in a
> kennel - and had gotten used to peeing there. The dog actually looked for
> wire grates - such as the floor heating ducts in their
> house!


> The smaller the kennel was, the more
> difficult your job is going to be.


> But you *can* do it.

Yeah, in TWO YEARS like most of the other dog
abusing mental cases who lock their dogs in a
box, judy.

> Sam can learn new house rules.

NOT if he's LOCKED IN A BOX, judy.

> What he's doing was allowed before.

No, that was NEVER "allowed" judy.

> You are going to have to really clean the odor out of everything you can.

That's ABSURD and IMPOSSIBLE, judy.

> And then you're going to have to be super-
> vigilant while Sam is learning the new rules.


> He's old enough -

He was "OLD ENOUGH" at 4 weeks of age, judy.

> his bladder is mature enough - to hold it while
> he's crated for a fairly long period of time.

THAT'S WHY HE CAN'T BE HOWEsbroken, judy,
BECAUSE of the crate.

> It may seem like it will take forever to retrain him,

Some dogs WON'T LIVE that long, judy.

> but once it's done and you look back, it
> won't have been all that long.

That's INSANE, judy.

> Hope this helps.

You're a MENTAL CASE, judy.

> ~~Judy


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