Dog Discussion: My Dog Acting Out...

My Dog Acting Out...
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Rocky
2006-02-14 00:29:16 EST
"Jeffrey Burns" <jeffreyjburns@sympatico.ca> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Can training help correct this or is the stress of
> competing with our child too much for him at this age?

Even though changes in behaviour are often a result of changes
in circumstance, it's a good idea to first rule out health
issues, especially with a middle-aged dog. See a vet before you
decide on a course of action.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Jeffrey Burns
2006-02-14 02:43:44 EST
Need some help...

I have a 9 year old cross (terrier and apso) who has had some issues since
my son was born 11 months ago. Just recently since my son has become more
mobile and aware my dog has been acting out more...and just not being
himself. He's been tearing the garbage apart, doing his business on the
carpet, on the bed, snarling at everyone and being aggressive... and just
tonight (after he pee'd on the bed) he bit me.

I'm assuming he bit me because he knew he was in trouble over that... but
this behaviour is totally out of character.

Can training help correct this or is the stress of competing with our child
too much for him at this age?

Thanks

J

--
----------------------
Jeffrey Burns

My Drum Site - http://makedrumsbeat.tripod.com/

My Band Site - http://makedrumsbeat.tripod.com/anthem

**Give them a click**




A*@HushMail.Com
2006-02-14 10:15:13 EST
HOWEDY Jeffrey,

WELCOME To The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums.
I'm Jerry Howe, The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

Here's your own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{) : ~ } >

<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>

Jeffrey Burns wrote:
> Need some help...

You've come to the right place.

> I have a 9 year old cross (terrier and apso) who has had
> some issues since my son was born 11 months ago.

The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs,
ALL OVER THE WHOLE WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.

ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.

> Just recently since my son has become more mobile

Dogs an kids go together like hand in glove. The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard has specialized in training working protection dogs
for families with children for nearly forty years. Your son will LOVE
havin a dog as he learns to stand and walk by holding onto your
dog's collar or ears and riding him in a couple years, if he's big
enough!

HOWEver, we've got a couple of posters here who've restrained
their dogs from intergrating with their new babies and have scolded
and punished them for "making contact" etc and have had instances
of aggression towards their own kids. You might want to ask marcel
aka mudbunny or katrina aka white monkey HOWE they've trained
their dogs to leave their kids alone and not attack them or steal their
food...

> and aware my dog has been acting out more...

Of curse, dogs LOVE relating to children! On many levels
they think and behave the same same <{) : ~ ) >

A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.

> and just not being himself.

Of curse he'd be actin different with the child than with you.
Dogs LOVE children, they're almost IDENTICAL, don't you think?

> He's been tearing the garbage apart,

Destructive behavior is usually an anXXXIHOWESNESS relief mechanism.

> doing his business on the carpet,

HOWEsbreaking is the most normal natural innate instinctive
terrortorial
imperative imperative behaivor for a critter at four weeks of age.
Dogs
ONLY have HOWEsbreakin problems for 2 (TWO) REASONS:

1. They're DEATHLY ILL

OR

2. They're DEATHLY UNHAPPY.

> on the bed,

When a dog relieves hisself in front of his people or on their
furniture it USUALLY MEANS he's makin a STATEMENT.

Occasionally they do that when they're SICK, but that's RARE.
If a dog is SICK and is "making a statement" like that they most
often do it right in front of you with a PLEADING look on their
face, as though begging for heelp.

The GOOD NEWS is you can REHABILITATE this IN WON DAY
IF it's a behavior problem, otherWIZE you'll KNOW he's SICK
and needs to see a vet.

> snarling at everyone and being aggressive...

Sounds like he's SICK... that's HOWE COME he'd be messin
in your bed and destroyin the garbage. Maybe he got a tape
worm and feels hungry all the time. Better see the vet...

> and just tonight (after he pee'd on the bed) he bit me.

That's curiHOWES.

ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR.

ALL FEAR IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING...

You can REHABILITATE THAT TOO IN WON DAY, unless of
curse he's SICK. Perhaps he's got a brain tumor? Perhaps you
better take him to a neurologist. You'll find lots of advice abHOWET
THAT from matty and janet who's hyperactive fear aggressive critters
likeWIZE mess on their furniture and attack them for seemingly no
reason at all.

Perhaps you should repost you question to alt.med.veterinary or
rec.pets.dogs.health? That's where you'll find the REAL EXXXPERTS
on health care.

> I'm assuming he bit me because he knew he was in trouble over that...

Could be. Sometimes dogs almost seem to be PSYCHIC.

"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."

Like a confessor Priest?

"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.

Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

You GET The Critter You TRAINED

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

> but this behaviour is totally out of character.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection with the perfection
of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a
given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW, emotions, not
outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan
Pavlov.

"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov.

"Complex activities are LEARNED MORE QUICKLY through
OBSERVATION (copying, if you will) than by trial and
error with reinforcemet (Luchins,)."

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson,
Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender
Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys <{) ; ~ ) >

> Can training help correct this or is the stress of
> competing with our child too much for him at this age?

"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.

What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

ALL temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING and therefore CAN BE CURED NEARLY
INSTANTLY by simply studying and applying the METHODS
PRINCIPLES and PHILOSOPHY of behavior AS TAUGHT in
your own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).

Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis from
clinical to parental HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases SHOWE
a remarkably shortened period for therapy.

Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in one to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
"Lovaas et al (1965) reported three programs carried
out on five year old autistic twins conditioining them
to "social behavior" and to eliminate pathologial
behaviors such as self-stimulation and tantrums.

Affectionate and other social behaviors toward
adults increaseed after adults had been associated
with shock reduction. The routine for this treatment
brings immediate relief to mind Sawrey and Wesz
(1956) routine for producing ulcers in monkeys.

I suppose it is USELESS to speculate on the source
of SO CALLED THERAPISTS willingness to experiment
on human beings with procedures for which there is
sound experimentally established WARNINGS.

If the "double blind" theory of the origin of schizophrenia
(Bateson, 1956) is at all valid, HOWE DEVASTATING the
experience must ULTIMATELY BE. Do Lovaas et al REALLY
BELIEVE the schizophrenic has no cognitive processes and
DOES NOT KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHOCK?
Greger (1965) criticized this study on the basis that trainsfer
CANNOT be generalized.

That issue can be answered by experience, and, of curse, the
"social" behavior of these children deteriorates as soon as the
psychologists LOOSE INTEREST.

The IMPORTANT ISSUE for a SCIENCE OF BEHAVIOR is
why not attempt those things which are KNOWN to WORK
at least in some cases if only for control puporses.

Kanner (1954) reports that 13 classically autistic children
improved enough to go to school without "anything that is
regarded as good psychotherapy or as psychotherapy at all...

Autistic children have been known to become permenantely
social by deinstitutionalization, BY REMOVAL from the parents,
BY RADICAL CHANGES in other environments, and by MASSIVE
DOSAGE of TOUCHING, HOLDING, FONDLING LOVE DESPITE
THE REJECTION OF THE CHILD. My case, Larry, (vonHilsheimer,
1965b), demonstrates a recovery by using the mother as an autistic
boy's teacher in an open millieu. It is curiHOWES that the operant
technicians provide as few, and as UNIMAGINITAVE controls for
thier "research" as the Freudians."

> Thanks

You're welcome.

From: "Jerry Howe"
<*.@mail.com>
To: <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 AM
Subject: The Bitch Slap?

HOWEDY Dr. VonAlzheimer,

The Simple Amazing Puppy Wizard would appreciate a little
heelp, a gentle reminder, a demonstration of "The Bitch
Slap", if you will?

Care to refresh HIS memory on HOWE it's done RIGHT?

From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEIMER, PHD, FRSH"
<*.@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Re: The Bitch Slap?
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:10:06 -0500

Jerry, Jerry! JERRY! what a slow learner you are.

positive reinforcement, atta boy, reward

negative reinforcement, no response, nada, negative means NO
punishment, aversive action taken immediately after unwanted
behavior - stupid, moronic and confusing, don't use it.

All the reasons you said - except where did you get this insane
notion that brain studies of reward trained and aversion trained
dogs show no difference. WRONG!

Relief of aversion, MAY be similar to reward, but then you've
got to start with the aversion, nay? Simply put, you are pulling
the dog with the leash and he moves in your desired direction.

He relieves the choking or just pull of the collar.

Relief of aversion MAY be just as good as reward, if you are VERY
careful about what you are giving to get him to relieve. And all
your objections to punishment stand...

You have to put him in a cage, to train him by relief of opening the
door.

You have to pull him with a collar, to train him by relief of easing
the pressure. Notice that you must have the discipline not to snatch
the leash repeatedly, only slow continuous kindly pressure works for
relief of aversion to be pure.

You have to give him a continual shock,
to train him by turning the shock off.

Tricky.

You can bully a dog into some behaviors but the dog knows forever
after that you are a bully. So he can be a toady, or he can be
your enemy. I hope he tears out your throat, in a genuinely Christian
way, of course! heh heh heh

you mean rape doesn't work? Good metaphor here, Literature is full
of descriptions of love following rape or humiliation. Never met a
lady or a man who claimed that's how her or his own love began, have
you? Punishment is a form of rape, if you want the erratic
constipated love of a cowed animal then punish, by all means, you
rapist.

You know we had to send a dog to the city that never did learn not
to attack porcupines. He'd come home with his face full of quills
time after time. Those are a bitch to get rid of and the pain only
comes when you are pulling the quills out. Not a good place for a
friend to be.

You know I don't KNOW that it doesn't hurt when the porcupine slaps
them in - I never saw it happen. But I do know that it hurts like
hell when you screw them out. If untreated the dog usually dies
- horribly.

My pop finally had to murder our Chang because he'd get screw worms
every summer and after the first time Pop was slow and had to do him
with turpentine he wouldn't even let his beloved Pop come near him
with a bottle in his hand. Yikes. So we killed all the screw worm
flies. YAY!

Dr. Vonsky

> J

It's not unusual for folks to come here lookin for PERMISSION
to murder their own dogs... and ask HOWE to recommend others
to murder their dogs when necessary as you'll see in the case
history below.

Only liars dog abusers coward and active acute chronic long
term incurable mental cases post here abHOWETS.

> --
> ----------------------
> Jeffrey Burns


Subject: Re: Mean, dominant male
From: MarshallDermerAlpha1UofWI@MUCHOMAIL.COM

Hello William,

William Robb wrote:
> I have a dog in my new class who is displaying some fairly
> disturbing behaviour. He is more or less fine with his male
> master, though a bit dog aggressive.

As a professor of behavioral analysis and dog lover having suffered
the slings and arrows of Jerry Howe, The Puppy Wizard's vile
disposition
and cutting, cruel remarks and having not thoroughly read nor
understood
the complexity of his free manual, this was the first analysis:

From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.­),

--Marshall

Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"

However, the only reasonable conclusion after six years of
observations of his student's reported consistent case history
data is that Mr. Howe has the fastest, gentlest, most effective
scientific methods of behavior modification which are effective
for all mammals, far superior than even to those taught in
university behavioral degree programs:

From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<*.@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard

Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,

I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.

You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent­,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts ­to
alert the world to animal abuse.

We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.

Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?

In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.

--Marshall Dermer

> I write this off to lack of experience with other
> dogs, he doesn't seem to get out much.

As Mr. Howe and Pavlov would agree, such considerations are irrelevent.

> The disturbing behaviour manifests when the fellows girlfriend is
> attempting to hande him.

As Mr. Howe frequently states, 'any behavior that is consitent,
repeatable or predictable is easy to extinguish, modify or put
on cue nearly instantly'.

> He growls fairly continuously, and acts in a fairly threatening
> manner towards *her*, unless something has his attention.

Mr. Howe would sincerely praise that dog non physically "as an
attention getting device" to change his state of mind and achieve
a sense of calm and trust.

> Apparently, this behaviour has been escalating for
> some time, which is why they are now taking classes.

As Mr. Howe's students report, age or duration of disturbed behavior is
irrelevent.

> I am of the opinion that the dog is very close to losing his bit inhibition,

Mr. Howe believes dogs are innately born with so called bite inhibition
and you'd have to agree that even derranged dogs do not bite
impenetrable
objects hard enough to break their teeth unless they think they can
chew
through them.

> as are the other trainers who have witnessed this fellows behaviour.

Many of Mr. Howe's students report having worked with three, four,
or five trainers and university trained behaviorists with no success
till they tried his ridiculously simple praise and distraction and
non physical pavlovian conditioning techniques which he teaches for
free out of the goodness of his cold cruel heart. Indeed, it seems
as though every life form has at least some redeeming value.

> he is definitely pushing the girl around hard, and she
> is quite terrified of him, I think with good reason.

In behvioral analysis terms that may be a symbiotic self
perpetuating phobic response, or "caused by mishandling"
as Mr. Howe would call it.

> He is definetly dominant with a mean streak about him.

That would be antithetical to the premises upon which Mr.
Howe has based his life's work and proven successfully
here on his forums using random subjects from all over
the world with all forms of aggression and every other
pathological behavior problem often considered "uncurable".

Mr. Howe believes there is only one form of, one cause of
aggression and judging by the case history data, that appears
to be correct, yet again dealing a blow to university behavioral
teachings.

> He is a LabX, so is a sizable animal.

Once again, Mr. Howe believes "a dog is a dog" and again,
proves it by means of his free students consistent reported
case history data.

> I have indicated that she should not be left alone with the dog,

Mr. Howe states clearly that any behavior which is avoided,
ignored, bribes or repressed will only get worse or change
to other, often worse, seemingly non related behaviors as
anxiety relief mechanisms or transfer behaviors.

> or attempt to handle the dog by herself,

Mr Howe would state that to do so would subvert her ability
to teach the dog self control and trust and would subvert her
training success by subordinating them both to a controller.

> and am tempted to recommend they destroy the animal.

Mr. Howe would consider that an abomination, "criminally
insane", if I recall exactly how he states it.

> This is a most distressing situation,

Mr. Howe would say this is an easy dog to train if the handler
simply releases all physical control and conditions the dog to
praise in advance, brief variably alternating non physical
distraction instantly followed by prolonged non physical praise
(5-15 secons) techniques and unconditional love trust and respect.

> the second last thing I want to do is tell them they should
> euthenize their dog, but the last thing i want is for the
> dog to hurt someone.

Mr. Howe's successful students from all over the world report
rehabilitating dogs far more dangerous and aggressive to many
more stimulie than this, nearly instantly and consistently, so
therefore perhaps you should take heed and study his free manual.
After all, it's free, fast, easy, and if it fails you've got
nothing to lose but a few minutes of study which may prove
effective in subsequent situations.

> Comments other than that we are all a bunch of abusers
> and should buy the puppy devil's video are appreciated.

The Pavlovian conditioning Mr. Howe teaches begins with a
bonding exercise to teach the dog he will not be subject
to corrections of any sort. He calls this his "Hot And Cold"
exercise. You just stand still on a six foot lead and praise
the dog every time he thinks or looks or moves toward you
and instantly release any tension on his collar till he
settles and relaxes next to you. This usually takes just
two minutes but may require a couple of considerably longer
periods initially, maybe a half hour for a very hyperactive /
fearful dog.

Then you take a walk to establish a "home base".. The "walk"
is done on a 20' line in a 20' square, praising the dog for
every move or glance towards you to condition the subject to
the area which will be used later in this what Mr. Howe calls
his "Family Pack Leadership Exercise" whereby you install the
conditional reflex to the come command. The particulars of this
conditioning are precise and often are installed in as few as
ten minutes.

Then you repeat these preliminary exercises four times in the
same location till you've got the dog trained to a conditional
reflex to come under any circumstances / distraction. Then you
repeat the simple exercises four times in three additional
locations and you've got 100% total non physical control whereby
you may successfully address all behavior problems in just a few
minutes of easy gentle scientific conditioning.

> Thanks

I sincerely hope the above explanation is accurate as I have
not referred to the text for this brief overview. I'd recommend
you give it a good study on your own and practice the techniques
without the dog nearby till you've got the sense for the timing
tone and tempo, the basis for all non physical conditioning.

> William Robb

Wishing you the best of luck...

> Thats william two underscores robb at accesscomm.ca

As we live and learn, time heels all wounds, doesn't it:

From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: JUMPING / MOUTHING On PEOPLE (Ninnyboy)
Date: 2001-08-14 17:15:25 PST

In article <2e501ccd.0108141341.7f18d...@posting.google.com>
m*.@yahoo.com (Matthew Burnside) writes:

Dear Matt:

Many have offered Jerry constructive advice but Jerry
has failed to profit from it.

My sincere advice is to filter out Jerry's posts.

--Marshall

PS: I have put "Ninnyboy" in the header for many of us filter
posts with this term. The term indicates that the post
is about Jerry.

_____________________________________________________________

I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I
have learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl,
Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy
Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore,
Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith,
Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.

Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis
Specialty/Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin-
-Milwaukee/Milwaukee, WI 53201

d*.@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me. But if I am only for
myself, what am I?" _The Talmud_

-----------------------------------------------------


HOWEDY william robb you miserable dog abusing
punk thug coward / FRAUD / MENTAL CASE,

William Robb wrote:
> I have a dog in my new class

BWEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!

You ain't no DOG TRAINER you're a DOG ABUSING FRAUD.

> who is displaying some fairly disturbing behaviour.

What's he doin, humpin your leg, billyboy???

"Postitive emotions arising in connection with
the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its
pragmatic significance at a given moment, serve
as the reinforcement. IOW, emotions, not outside
rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov

ALL Critters Only Respond In PREDICTABLE INNATE
NORMAL NATURAL INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.

ALL TEMPERAMENT AND BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS ARE CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson,
Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender
Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys <{) ; ~ ) >

> He is more or less fine with his male master, though a bit dog aggressive.

ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. THAT MEANS
we
can EXXXTINGUISH ALL AGGRESSION NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by doin EVERY
THING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you brutalize dogs, billy boy <{):
~ ( >

> I write this off to lack of experience with other dogs,

He's a DOG, billy. He got ALL the "EXXXPERIENCE" he needs with DOGS
from his mommy and littermates long pryor to ever gettin into your
idiotic "classes" where you jerk and choke him <{): ~ ) >

> he doesn't seem to get out much.

That's IRRELEVENT, billyboy.

> The disturbing behaviour manifests when the
> fellows girlfriend is attempting to hande him.

THAT'S on accHOWENT of SHE AIN'T ABLE TO HURT HIM like
his MASTER does as YOU TAUGHT HIM to, billy boy <{): ~ ) >

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

> He growls fairly continuously,

Naaaah??? Ever tried PRAISING instead of CHOKIN him, billy boy?

From: "Dr. Von" <drv...@mindspring.com>
Date: 12 Sep 2005 10:52:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Clicker Training for Dogs Newsgroups?

Jen, your request for a positive only dog training list,
needs the same answer as I give the folk who ask why I
don't have a list for what I do with biofeedback.

The method is so simple, and if you adopt it and relate
to your dog in such a positive manner you won't have any
more problems and there is no need for any more technique.

With Puppies we Ph.D. psychologists have been outflanked
by the entirely practical and effective methods described
in http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u. Free download, nothing
sold, no mailing list, no distribution of your name. Free
support if needed.

With ADHD kids I provide similar information at
www.drbiofeedback.com and there is no need for
a list dealing with problems with kids. Apply
as directed and have happy healthy doggies or
kiddies.

Not difficult.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

P.S. jerk and choke, spanking, shocking, scruff shake,
choke, chin chucks, all those negatives, denial of
affection etc. are harmful, dranging, obscenities.

You might want to consider Pavlov's typology to
understand "hard and soft dogs" - essentially he
taught that there are outward and inward responding
organisms in weak and strong nervous systems and if
you grasp this firmly you'll shape your training
methods effectively.

Punishment ALWAYS deranges behavior, and so is
recommended and given only by deranged humans.

Of course, it doesn't matter if we are talking
dogs, cats, people, sheep, even husbands.

Dr. Von

> and acts in a fairly threatening manner towards *her*,

You mean when SHE CHOKES HIM, billy.

> unless something has his attention.

Like a COOKIE, billy boy???

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
how we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

"The IMBECILITY of some ofthe claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavoir and learning
immediately deteriorated."

> Apparently, this behaviour has been escalating for
> some time, which is why they are now taking classes.

Well then, shouldn't take you but a couple minutes to TRAIN him, eh
billy?

LIKE THIS:

"*a@DCFWatch.com" wrote:

No, the dog learned that I would hold still
the second she began to pull. She would pull
to go where *she* wanted.

Well if she wanted to stop and go in another
direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard..

she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop
walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't
enough slack on her lead she would just pull me.

Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl
heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go"
and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i
looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes
waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission
to go again.

I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her
stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie.

I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose
pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective..

we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i
followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them...
and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only
when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was
better than what she wanted.. which was not often.

She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she
could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry...
he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me
his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the
pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help
at 10pm on a sunday night.

One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after
the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag
down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and
never had tension.

two men were acrossed the street and she walked right
by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us.

And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he
even looked like he was going near my husband or kids..
is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing
gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside..

actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in
the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since
she's 19 months old and has never had a litter.

She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's
dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by
and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting
to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box
and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half.

She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat.
Amanda

AND LIKE THIS:

"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:

I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.

At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.

I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.

I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.

I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.

At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when
I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"

I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."

*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)

As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!

Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.

When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"

The results can make a believer!!!

Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.

He just seemed to not notice any one.

When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.

I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.

If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.

My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!

I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

================================

From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.

We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.

I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-

- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.

They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

----------------------------------

> I am of the opinion

Your "OPINION" is that of a DOG ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARD, billy

> that the dog is very close to losing his bit inhibition,

That's MEANINGLESS IDIOCY, billyboy.

"Lovaas et al (1965) reported three programs carried
out on five year old autistic twins conditioining them
to "social behavior" and to eliminate pathologial
behaviors such as self-stimulation and tantrums.

Affectionate and other social behaviors toward
adults increaseed after adults had been associated
with shock reduction. The routine for this treatment
brings immediate relief to mind Sawrey and Wesz
(1956) routine for producing ulcers in monkeys.

I suppose it is USELESS to speculate on the source
of SO CALLED THERAPISTS willingness to experiment
on human beings with procedures for which there is
sound experimentally established WARNINGS.

If the "double blind" theory of the origin of
schizophrenia (Bateson, 1956) is at all valid,
HOWE DEVASTATING the experience must ULTIMATELY
BE. Do Lovaas et al REALLY BELIEVE the schizophrenic
has no cognitive processes and DOES NOT KNOW WHO IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHOCK? Greger (1965) criticized
this study on the basis that trainsfer CANNOT be
generalized.

That issue can be answered by experience, and,
of curse, the "social" behavior of these children
deteriorates as soon as the psychologists LOOSE
INTEREST.

The IMPORTANT ISSUE for a SCIENCE OF BEHAVIOR is why
not attempt those things which are KNOWN to WORK at
least in some cases if only for control puporses.

Kanner (1954) reports that 13 classically autistic
children improved enough to go to school without
"anything that is regarded as good psychotherapy
or as psychotherapy at all...

Autistic children have been known to become permenantely
social by deinstitutionalization, BY REMOVAL from the
parents, BY RADICAL CHANGES in other environments, and
by MASSIVE DOSAGE of TOUCHING, HOLDING, FONDLING LOVE
DESPITE THE REJECTION OF THE CHILD. My case, Larry,
(vonHilsheimer, 1965b), demonstrates a recovery by
using the mother as an autistic boy's teacher in an
open millieu. It is curiHOWES that the operant
technicians provide as few, and as UNIMAGINITAVE
controls for thier "research" as the Freudians."

> as are the other trainers who have witnessed this fellows behaviour.

You mean the EXXXPERTS you work with, billy?

> he is definitely pushing the girl around hard,

He's AFRAID and SHE AIN'T HURTIN HIM ENOUGH like his
DADDY, billyboy. The DICHOTOMY of HURT ENOUGH / NOT
HURT ENOUGH is the CAUSE of the dog's FEAR. Accordin
to dr. sidman you MUST HURT THE CRITTER ENOUGH EVERY
TIME or you'll CAUSE HANDLER AGGRESSION, billyboy.

> and she is quite terrified of him,

All you gotta do is DEMONSTRATE a EFFECTIVE LEASH POP, billyboy.

GO AHEAD, COWARD. The Amazing Puppy Wizard DARES YOU TO.

> I think with good reason.

Naaah? You mean on accHOWENT of YOU CAN'T TRAIN THEM, billyboy???

IT'S EZ IF YOU KNOW HOWE, billyboy, PROFESSIONAL TRAINER:

"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's
And All Dogs,
ALL OVER The HOWEL WILD WORLD
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual,"
The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

> He is definetly dominant with a mean streak about him.

Sometimes what SCARES and OFFENDS us MOST is what we
SEE of HOWERselves in others which we DESPISE, billyboy.
Perhaps that's a tad FREUDIAN, eh?

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

> He is a LabX, so is a sizable animal.

You mean he's a Pit Bull CROSS, billyboy.

> I have indicated that she should not be left alone with the dog,

On accHOWENT of you're an INCOMPETENT DOG ABUSING COWARD, billyboy.

> or attempt to handle the dog by herself,

All you gotta do is TEACH HER HOWE to HURT him pupperly, billyboy.

"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."

Like a confessor Priest?

"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.

Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

> and am tempted to recommend they destroy the animal.

On accHOWENT of you're a dog abusing punk thug coward, billyboy.

"If You Talk With The Animals,
They Will Talk With You
And You Will Know Each Other.

If You Do Not Talk To Them,
You Will Not Know Them,
And What You Do Not Know
You Will Fear.

What One Fears, One Destroys,"
Chief Dan George,
adapted with permission from his FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.

> This is a most distressing situation,

No, YOU are "a MOST DISTRESSING SITUATION", you miserable dog
abusing punk thug coward FRAUD <{): ~ ( >

> the second last thing I want to do is tell
> them they should euthenize their dog,

Yuo mean MURDER their dog on accHOWENT of YOU ARE A FRAUD and a COWARD,
billy.

> but the last thing i want is for the dog to hurt someone.

You mean, like HIS TRAINER, billyboy???

The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME is the perfect synergy
of love, pride, desire, self will, greed, ego, fear,
hate, arrogance, disbelief, jealousy, embarrassment,
embellishment, shame, guilt, anger, aversion, attraction,
revulsion, change, permanence, enlightenment, insult,
attrition, and conditioning.

It's the perfect fusion of The Word...,
in the physical.

It's time for the dog training industry and the
universities who TEACH "behaviorists" to DEFEND
THEIR METHODS against 100% NEAR INSTANT TOTAL
SUCCESS as PROVEN by the C-HOWENTLESS NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Student's REPORTS, after
they've "TRIED ALL OTHER METHODS and FAILED".

"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised
for the good of its victims,
may be the most oppressive.
Those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end,
for they do so with the approval of
their own conscience." -
- C.S. Lewis.

"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny",
Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon.

> Comments other than that we are all a bunch of
> abusers and should buy the puppy devil's video
> are appreciated.

HOWE abHOWET you study The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual, billyboy, and ASK The Amazing Puppy Wizard if you need any
additional FREE HEELP on accHOWNT of the MOVIE AIN'T AVAILABLE at
this time.

From: NanK <a...@enter.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:49:32 GMT
Subject: Re: wit's end training method

WienerDog wrote:
> All he does is slander and defame people in
> here. He knows nothing about dog training or
> canine behavior. He just makes this up and
> has been trolling this newsgroup for years.

Well, actually, he also understands dogs, and if
you've read his manual, there is not one punishment
(or anything in it that your dog could perceive as
punishment), which is why it is so effective.

Many trainers use fear, bribery and intimidation to train.

I have two dogs that arrived from abusive homes with
problems three years ago.

After teaching myself Jerry's methods, no more problems.

My friends, all using "trainers", seem to solve one problem
only to have another emerge shortly thereafter. They don't
understand the manual at all, and keep resorting to punishment
techniques, so their dogs at best behave erratically.

I think it's displacement -- the dog stops doing
one thing, but starts another to relieve anxiety.

Jerry may have little patience with people, but then,
it ain't about you, it's about your dog.

n

> Thanks

You're welcome!

<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > If Any Man Knows One, < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > The Level Which Is Reached < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > The Truth. < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > Indeed All Creatures Act < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > With Permission < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > From His FREE Copy < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > Of < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > The Puppy Wizard's < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > FREE < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > Wits' End Dog Training < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > Method Manual < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > FREE < { ~ :{@}>
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<{#}: ~ } > And SP-HOWES < { ~ :{@}>
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> William Robb

From: Lynn (roudyre...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Shame on all of you!
Date: 2002-09-11 20:47:24 PST

I am quite real thank you very much. I was told how awful
many of you are, so I thought I would see for myself. Yes
Jerry was willing to share his knowledge! He has not tried to
sell me one thing.

He warned us, and I did not quite believe how spiteful you all
are. You are a little gang of kindergarteners who want to
punish those who differ from your beliefs in gimmicks and
painful short cuts.

Yes you got a message by mistake Ms. Boss, heaven forbid! And
you told me without even knowing me I was missing "part of my
deck" for being interested in "The Wits End"!

How dare you! Sorry I am not perfect at posting on boards.

You don't even know who I am, and I have NEVER taken a shot at
you, just watched and listened. Think you are so high and
mighty?

Go ahead, "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn!" Obviously
you are one of those wrinkled old biddies I have shown against
who can't keep their hair on straight.

I know of the jerking and pulling going on behind the scenes
because you are working to fast, running to late, and afraid
your poor dog won't stack properly if you don't "jazz" it up.
Poor souls you are.

You want to delete my posts because I did what exactly?????
Blame Jerry Howe for writing a manual, say he is a fake too,
(everyone must be I guess if they don't agree with you), and
condem him for GIVING away something?

I notice you toot your own horn at the end of every post. It's
o.k. for you? I think you all need to grow up and realize you
are in a big world, and there are other answers besides yours.

Still in business, with my own hair and 6 dogs all getting
along playing loose at this moment on my ranch. Oh, this will
really make you mad.... The Rotti, Airedale, St. Bernard
cross, Golden cross, Shetland Sheep Dog, Queensland Heeler,
are all playing and no fights. Jerry helped me socialize the
Rotti with some ideas. The Airedale is no longer "eating" the
other dogs, owners are thrilled. Dare you to put this combo
together. Of course, a few might have better pedi's than you
and it wouldn't work. I won't spell check so you can pick at
me more o.k.?

Lynn

> Thats william two underscores robb at accesscomm.ca

You mean, LIKE THIS?: william__robb@accesscomm.ca?

"A cheerful heart is good medicine,
but a crushed spirit dries up the bones".
Proverbs 17:22

Blessed are all who take refuge in HIM.

Jerry 21 And unto this people thou shalt say,
Thus saith the LORD Of DOG;
Behold, I set before you
The Way Of Life,
And
The Way Of Death.

And Disciple Paulie said unto them, Thus shall ye
say to your master, Thus saith The LORD Of DOG,
Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard,
with which the servants of koehler and university
trained behaviorists and veterinary malpracticioners
have blasphemed me.

Disciple Paulie Sez:

"No One Understands How Wits End Training Really
Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't
Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With
Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On Trust
And Understanding.

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good
dog" sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll
find your dog thinking then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.

I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all,
all dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they
are good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.

Telling Sam he's a good dog AFTER he sit's apart from
been too late is also a gamble because if he doesn't
sit then there's no positive interaction.
Paul

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
I came not to send peace,
but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother,
the daughter in law against her mother in law
and the scholar against his professors.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own HOWEshold."
The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >

All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer

"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.

"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.


A*@HushMail.Com
2006-02-14 10:24:42 EST
HOWEDY matty you miserable lyin dog abusing punk thug
coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental case,

Rocky wrote:
> "Jeffrey Burns" <jeffreyjburns@sympatico.ca> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > Can training help correct this or is the stress of
> > competing with our child too much for him at this age?

That's ABSURD, matty. Dogs bein PACK CRITTERS DO NOT COMPETE, they
SHARE an SHARE ALIKE, don't they, NHOWE that you THINK abHOWET it for
a moment, eh matty <{) : ~ ) >

> Even though changes in behaviour are often a result of changes in circumstance,

You mean like HOWE your punk thug coward active acute chronic mental
case
lying dog abusing pals marcel the imbecile and katrina aka white monkey
have
PROBLEMS with their own dogs gettin along with their new babies?

> it's a good idea to first rule out health issues,

You mean like IDIOPATHIC EPILEPSY, matty?

> especially with a middle-aged dog.

That's INSANE, matty. There AIN'T NUTHIN wrong with
his dog that NOT PUNISHIN HIM won't CURE.

AIN'T THAT correct, matty, NHOWE that you THINK abHOWET it?

> See a vet before you decide on a course of action.

What's the VET gonna do for his dog's FEAR AGGRESSION, matty,
OTHER THAN MURDER HIS DOG for him like so many of your punk
thug coward pals have done RIGHT HERE on The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums???

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Here's YOU hurtin dogs an LYIN abHOWET IT:

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhealey@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:

> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.

yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN

THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
------------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<*.@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkfr257e1a@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r4a4e85e@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63h8ekqiforibadrff2@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv128jnumgmb2m27opr@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu...

> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:

"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
> > I feel very sorry for her and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."

--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!


"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.

"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome

"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL.

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >

BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST

In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrn­­­sc53>,

"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-
> Shock). If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?

If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system,
I have one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.

> I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
> more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
> walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
> so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
> watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
> props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
> I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.

I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.

That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw

culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:

From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.co­­­m>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com...

> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.

------------------------------­­­--

"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433.10365.00000067@mb-cg.aol.com...

>> how effective are these electronic fences in
>> keeping a dog on a property????

Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.

Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

http://tinyurl.com/389al

In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.

Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
>
>
On 6 Feb 2006 01:19:16 -0800,
"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:

> janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
> training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
> learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
> qualifications only their own experience.

What exactly does that mean?

> its because of them i am busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.

"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority. The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that. There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.

> i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
> lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
> 'trainers' said.

What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior? Do you not use a lead when training? Not on city streets?

> i guess i was as distressed as my dog.

I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.

> i took a dog out of this real nasty hell hole. the lady had set her
> self up as a rescue then had about 20 dogs running free in her back
> garden and it broke down to chaos.i took out a young lab female who
> was so scared she wouldnt climb into my car and i wasnt going to force
> her so i just sat next to her but on my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman
> growled and grabbed the dog at the back of the neck and a lump of flesh
> at the rump and threw her into my car.

What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools? So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.

>with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
>i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
>'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.

When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door,
what "nicer way" do you employ?

> the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke
> prong or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.

My neck is very different from a dog's neck. I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly. As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.

>ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
>kick my arse..............i am braced :)

Nope - don't believe in kicking. But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs. I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.

Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album


"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

g*.@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.

Which one is it?

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

------------------------------­­­-----------

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­-----------

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

------------------------------­­­-----------

> But I think what Lois was referring to was
> the fact that Darlene actually stated at
> some point that she was bipolar--and, IIRC,
> that meds did not work for her--so she was
> prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­-----------

LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03

BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have
> you read "The Unquiet Mind"?

Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­---------

MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"

MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...

YOU DO THE MATH

"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"

From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,

"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."

The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.

No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.
------------------------------­­­-------

"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.

It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.

And he was killed by bichons.

Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.

(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").

Full moon.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com

> Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
> and I immediately remembered them.

YOUR STUDENT, leah. Like that RECENT GRADUATE
STUDENT Rottie who'd been in your SOCIALIZATION
classes since IT was ten weeks old who RECENTLY
MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG at the park.

> I will always remember the dogs.

Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.

From: dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
Date: 05 Nov 2002 00:55:40 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard

>"Mike E" m...@egbert.com wrote:
> My question was "Is there any legitimacy to the
> harshly-worded teachings of the Puppy Wizard?"

Any legitimate advice he gives is plagiarized from
other, more coherent sources.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:

Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.

"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying."

Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them.

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!


"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHAHAHHHHAHHHAAAAA!!!

NHOWE THAT'S SUMPTHIN TO BE PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.

The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham

All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer

"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.

"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{TAPW} ; - ) >

ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?

,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW} ; ~ } >
oo-oo


A*@HushMail.Com
2006-02-14 10:25:24 EST
HOWEDY matty you miserable lyin dog abusing punk thug
coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental case,

Rocky wrote:
> "Jeffrey Burns" <jeffreyjburns@sympatico.ca> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > Can training help correct this or is the stress of
> > competing with our child too much for him at this age?

That's ABSURD, matty. Dogs bein PACK CRITTERS DO NOT COMPETE, they
SHARE an SHARE ALIKE, don't they, NHOWE that you THINK abHOWET it for
a moment, eh matty <{) : ~ ) >

> Even though changes in behaviour are often a result of changes in circumstance,

You mean like HOWE your punk thug coward active acute chronic mental
case
lying dog abusing pals marcel the imbecile and katrina aka white monkey
have
PROBLEMS with their own dogs gettin along with their new babies?

> it's a good idea to first rule out health issues,

You mean like IDIOPATHIC EPILEPSY, matty?

> especially with a middle-aged dog.

That's INSANE, matty. There AIN'T NUTHIN wrong with
his dog that NOT PUNISHIN HIM won't CURE.

AIN'T THAT correct, matty, NHOWE that you THINK abHOWET it?

> See a vet before you decide on a course of action.

What's the VET gonna do for his dog's FEAR AGGRESSION, matty,
OTHER THAN MURDER HIS DOG for him like so many of your punk
thug coward pals have done RIGHT HERE on The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums???

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Here's YOU hurtin dogs an LYIN abHOWET IT:

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhealey@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:

> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.

yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

<except when it is>

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

--------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN

THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
------------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<*.@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkfr257e1a@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r4a4e85e@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63h8ekqiforibadrff2@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv128jnumgmb2m27opr@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu...

> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.

> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:

"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
> > I feel very sorry for her and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."

--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!


"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.

"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome

"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL.

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >

BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST

In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrn­­­sc53>,

"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-
> Shock). If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?

If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system,
I have one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.

> I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
> more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
> walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
> so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
> watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
> props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
> I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.

I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.

That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw

culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:

From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.co­­­m>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com...

> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.

------------------------------­­­--

"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433.10365.00000067@mb-cg.aol.com...

>> how effective are these electronic fences in
>> keeping a dog on a property????

Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.

Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

http://tinyurl.com/389al

In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.

Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
>
>
On 6 Feb 2006 01:19:16 -0800,
"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:

> janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
> training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
> learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
> qualifications only their own experience.

What exactly does that mean?

> its because of them i am busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.

"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority. The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that. There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.

> i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
> lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
> 'trainers' said.

What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior? Do you not use a lead when training? Not on city streets?

> i guess i was as distressed as my dog.

I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.

> i took a dog out of this real nasty hell hole. the lady had set her
> self up as a rescue then had about 20 dogs running free in her back
> garden and it broke down to chaos.i took out a young lab female who
> was so scared she wouldnt climb into my car and i wasnt going to force
> her so i just sat next to her but on my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman
> growled and grabbed the dog at the back of the neck and a lump of flesh
> at the rump and threw her into my car.

What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools? So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.

>with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
>i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
>'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.

When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door,
what "nicer way" do you employ?

> the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke
> prong or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.

My neck is very different from a dog's neck. I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly. As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.

>ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
>kick my arse..............i am braced :)

Nope - don't believe in kicking. But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs. I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.

Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album


"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's

just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

g*.@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.

Which one is it?

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

------------------------------­­­-----------

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­-----------

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

------------------------------­­­-----------

> But I think what Lois was referring to was
> the fact that Darlene actually stated at
> some point that she was bipolar--and, IIRC,
> that meds did not work for her--so she was
> prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­-----------

LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03

BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have
> you read "The Unquiet Mind"?

Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.

Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­---------

MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"

MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...

YOU DO THE MATH

"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"

From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,

"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."

The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.

No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.
------------------------------­­­-------

"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.

It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.

And he was killed by bichons.

Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.

(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").

Full moon.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com

> Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
> and I immediately remembered them.

YOUR STUDENT, leah. Like that RECENT GRADUATE
STUDENT Rottie who'd been in your SOCIALIZATION
classes since IT was ten weeks old who RECENTLY
MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG at the park.

> I will always remember the dogs.

Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.

From: dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
Date: 05 Nov 2002 00:55:40 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard

>"Mike E" m...@egbert.com wrote:
> My question was "Is there any legitimacy to the
> harshly-worded teachings of the Puppy Wizard?"

Any legitimate advice he gives is plagiarized from
other, more coherent sources.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:

Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.

"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying."

Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them.

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!


"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

B*.@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<*.@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHAHAHHHHAHHHAAAAA!!!

NHOWE THAT'S SUMPTHIN TO BE PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.

In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.

"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.

The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham

All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer

"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.

"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{TAPW} ; - ) >

ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?

,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW} ; ~ } >
oo-oo


John Oliver
2006-02-15 19:30:53 EST
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:43:44 -0800, Jeffrey Burns wrote:
> Need some help...
>
> I have a 9 year old cross (terrier and apso) who has had some issues since
> my son was born 11 months ago. Just recently since my son has become more
> mobile and aware my dog has been acting out more...and just not being
> himself. He's been tearing the garbage apart, doing his business on the
> carpet, on the bed, snarling at everyone and being aggressive... and just
> tonight (after he pee'd on the bed) he bit me.
>
> I'm assuming he bit me because he knew he was in trouble over that... but
> this behaviour is totally out of character.
>
> Can training help correct this or is the stress of competing with our child
> too much for him at this age?

Yes, training can help, and you need to get on with it immediately.
Snarling and biting around an 11-month-old toddler? Big, big trouble
waiting to happen.

--
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* Reform California gun laws - http://www.reformcagunlaws.com/ *
* http://www.gunownersca.com - http://www.crpa.org/ *
* San Diego shooters come to http://shooting.forsandiego.com/ *
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