Dog Discussion: Bob Maida Bob631@aol.com Wrote In Message "ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS"

Bob Maida Bob631@aol.com Wrote In Message "ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS"
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The Puppy Wizard
2004-06-26 17:19:37 EST
From: Linda (llindaleedaniel@msn.com)
Subject: Re: ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS
Date: 2003-05-28 16:26:12 PST

Marilyn--I am with you on the PuppyWizard--he is the only one
who has helped me and my dog and his approaches work and are
non violent. How are you using his approach in your school?
I really want to move on to sharing his wonderful and
successful method with others. To all the new posters, get a
copy of his manual and try it before you listen to everyone
elses opinion.

"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote in
message
news:<BMTAa.19771$Io.1757809@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>.
..
> From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynrammell@hotmail.com)
> Subject: Re: ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS
> Date: 2000/03/24
>
>
> "Bob Maida" <bob631@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000324130930.29493.00000724@ng-fg1.aol.com...
> > Hi,
> > Tired of the negativity and the ranting and raving??
> > Our resident angry person won't have anyone to fight with
> > if you filter him out or use your killfile..
>
> > Since I have done it, I have found this group to be
> > quite pleasant.
>
> > Try it for a few days. You will really enjoy it.
>
> Hello again Bob,
>
> Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. Take a look at
> some of the replies made to my recent posts.... Not
> made by the person 'seen to be angry' though. ( I
> assume you're> meaning Jerry Howe)?
>
> I didn't know anyone here on this ng when I first joined
> just a year ago, but since that time (because of my
> phylosophy, which dosn't meet with most of the regulars
> approval), I've met anger, anger, anger - but 'never' from
> Jerry Howe. Incidentally Bob, we have something in common...
> I started my first school in 1969 ... a good year :-)
>
> I've made every effort to be polite and courteous to all on
> this group, including Jerry Howe. He however, is one of the
> few who has returned the courteousy. Watch and see - or
> better still, go back through the history and see the way
> I've been treated. Most of the professional trainers who've
> shared the more positive non-confrontational methodology
> have been treated similarly and sadly they left in disgust.
>
> That wont be the case with myself.
>
> Oh, and I'm not Jerry Howe in drag by the way - that's been
> suggested no-end of times - nor am I a troll - nor am I his
> Mother/Wife/Sister/Aunt or colleague. I'm just a trainer
> who recognises him as being one of the best trainers I've
> ever had the pleasure of speaking with.
>
> Perhaps if the newbies look beyond the feuding, they too
> will appreciate this. I've never agreed with the rudeness,
> language, hostility etc., but then again... he's not the
> only one doing that here. Others arn't critisised for
> rudeness though.
>
> So.... to all the newbies, watch this thread carefully now,
> and see how many angry people there really are here lol.
>
> Take care Bob
> regards,
> Marilyn
>
> >
> > Peace,
> > Bob Maida
> > Dog Training/Problem Counseling since 1969
> > Herndon, Virginia
> >
> > Don't feed the trolls, malcontents and troublemakers.
> > Killfile/Filter their posts out or ignore them.



A*@sbcglobal.net?
2004-06-26 18:43:03 EST

And it looks like your one of those crossposting MF's ALSO!!
Get the fuck out of here and take that loonie PW with you.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:19:37 GMT, "The Puppy Wizard"
<*d@earthlink.net> wrote:

>From: Linda (llindaleedaniel@msn.com)
>Subject: Re: ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS
>Date: 2003-05-28 16:26:12 PST
>
>Marilyn--I am with you on the PuppyWizard--he is the only one
>who has helped me and my dog and his approaches work and are
>non violent. How are you using his approach in your school?
>I really want to move on to sharing his wonderful and
>successful method with others. To all the new posters, get a
>copy of his manual and try it before you listen to everyone
>elses opinion.
>
>"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote in
>message
>news:<BMTAa.19771$Io.1757809@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>.
>..
>> From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynrammell@hotmail.com)
>> Subject: Re: ATTENTION NEW POSTERS AND REGULARS
>> Date: 2000/03/24
>>
>>
>> "Bob Maida" <bob631@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20000324130930.29493.00000724@ng-fg1.aol.com...
>> > Hi,
>> > Tired of the negativity and the ranting and raving??
>> > Our resident angry person won't have anyone to fight with
>> > if you filter him out or use your killfile..
>>
>> > Since I have done it, I have found this group to be
>> > quite pleasant.
>>
>> > Try it for a few days. You will really enjoy it.
>>
>> Hello again Bob,
>>
>> Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. Take a look at
>> some of the replies made to my recent posts.... Not
>> made by the person 'seen to be angry' though. ( I
>> assume you're> meaning Jerry Howe)?
>>
>> I didn't know anyone here on this ng when I first joined
>> just a year ago, but since that time (because of my
>> phylosophy, which dosn't meet with most of the regulars
>> approval), I've met anger, anger, anger - but 'never' from
>> Jerry Howe. Incidentally Bob, we have something in common...
>> I started my first school in 1969 ... a good year :-)
>>
>> I've made every effort to be polite and courteous to all on
>> this group, including Jerry Howe. He however, is one of the
>> few who has returned the courteousy. Watch and see - or
>> better still, go back through the history and see the way
>> I've been treated. Most of the professional trainers who've
>> shared the more positive non-confrontational methodology
>> have been treated similarly and sadly they left in disgust.
>>
>> That wont be the case with myself.
>>
>> Oh, and I'm not Jerry Howe in drag by the way - that's been
>> suggested no-end of times - nor am I a troll - nor am I his
>> Mother/Wife/Sister/Aunt or colleague. I'm just a trainer
>> who recognises him as being one of the best trainers I've
>> ever had the pleasure of speaking with.
>>
>> Perhaps if the newbies look beyond the feuding, they too
>> will appreciate this. I've never agreed with the rudeness,
>> language, hostility etc., but then again... he's not the
>> only one doing that here. Others arn't critisised for
>> rudeness though.
>>
>> So.... to all the newbies, watch this thread carefully now,
>> and see how many angry people there really are here lol.
>>
>> Take care Bob
>> regards,
>> Marilyn
>>
>> >
>> > Peace,
>> > Bob Maida
>> > Dog Training/Problem Counseling since 1969
>> > Herndon, Virginia
>> >
>> > Don't feed the trolls, malcontents and troublemakers.
>> > Killfile/Filter their posts out or ignore them.
>

--

Email: Remove the ©

The Puppy Wizard
2004-06-26 20:13:45 EST
HOWEDY alpha\ufffd

"alpha\ufffd" apbt@sbcglobal.net wrote in message
news:6surd09m179io7hvf7cso6s5ae943heqb8@4ax.com...
>
> And it looks like your one of those crossposting MF's ALSO!!

Yeah.

> Get the fuck out of here and take that loonie PW with you.

Bye the bye alpha\ufffd, you should learn to
snip cross posts and trim text and put
NINNYBOY in the subject header to avoid
EMBARRASSMENT like HOWE professor
SCRUFF SHAKE dermer, research professor
of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI and ed
w of PET LOSS dot COIN recommend.

Oh lookey, here's HOWER good professor NHOWE:


"Speech is a mirror of the soul: as a man speaks,
so is he." Publilius Syrus, First century B.C., Maxim 1073

"We are what we do."

From: Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

>Paul B wrote:
>> While the concept of shake cans is not new,
>> I haven't read any other advice that says to
>> praise immediately regardless of what the dog
>> does next (the common advice is to praise once
>> the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
>> stopped the unwanted behaviour), this is unique
>> to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own experiences
>> is an important part of the process.

And how do we know this aspect of his advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.

His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

--Marshall

=================

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>
wrote in message news:9ihtee$7ib$1@uwm.edu...
>
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpanders@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 00:13:28 PST

Hello Marshall,

The way I view it from my observation of how
my dogs react is that the distraction interrupts
the dogs thought, not for good or bad, just
interrupts, the dog is therefore distracted for
a second and then will either continue the
behaviour or do something else.

The praise reassures the dog that the sound
distraction is not a threat or punishment,
however if everytime the dog resumes a
particular behaviour it's distracted immediately
(and praised immediately for reassurance) then
it quickly decides this behaviour is not fulfilling
and it ceases.

A dog will offer another behaviour in it's place
and if that is acceptable to us then we let it be
otherwise the distraction continues until a suitable
alternate behaviour is offered.

One example, Sam used to jump up on me
when I arrived home, I would shake can to
distract him right at the moment he was
about to jump up, after about 4 repetitions
he tried sitting and offering me his paw, of
course this was fine so I let it be.

While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the
dog does next (the common advice is to
praise once the dog is doing a desired
behaviour or at least stopped the unwanted
behaviour), this is unique to Jerry (and Marilyn)
and from my own experiences is an important
part of the process.

> Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
> a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
> that this may not work and so distraction
> is recommended as a back up procedure:

"Estel J. Hines" <ejhines@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:w86dna9lBfNZgbTdRVn-hA@comcast.com...
>
>>> Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon,
>>> it went something like this with our 11 month old
>>> puppy "Yoshi"
>
>>> Yoshi: Bark, bark,
>
>>> us: HUSH Youshi
>
>>> Yoshi Bark, bark......................
>
>>> us: Hush Youshi
>
>>> Yoshi BARK, BARK, BARK, .................................
>
>>> it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking
>
>>> We decided to try the Jerry method
>
>>> :Yoshi: BARK, BARK
>
>>> US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it?
>
>>> Yoshi Bark, Bark
>
>>> US: It's ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them
>
>>> Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that
>>> I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
>>> can praise him, to deal with things like this
>
>>> Thanks Jerry
>
>>> ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
>>> Papers, and learn how to live with our son
>>> "Yoshi", whom we love very much. --
>
>>> Best Regards,
>
>>> Estel J. Hines

==============

> There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!

Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.

> Sound distraction may be understood in
> terms of the more general behavior analytic
> approach as follows.
>
> The distracting stimulus

Like a SCRUFF SHAKE, professor?

>evokes a behavior that is incompatible with barking.

You mean like SCREAMING "NO!" into ITS face
for 5 seconds?

> The dog engages in some other behavior

NO, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.

THAT AIN'T HOWE IT WORKS.

> and then is reinforced (if praise functions as a
> reinforcer).

NO, professor. You don't UNDERSTAND the METHOD.

> --Marshal

ANAL-yize THIS, professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
"NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

******IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?*******

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works."

That's HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors
and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

And The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ you
can't post here abHOWETS noMOORE
cause you're a liar and a dog abuser and
a coward and a MENTAL CASE.

Here's HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches
HIS FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Students to train their critters NEARLY
INSTANTLY.

New Law Of Physics

HOWEDY People,

"The amount of misery and difficulty a dog abuser
has from their dogs is directly proportionate to the
number of times they've WARNED people to KILLFILE
Jerry and not study your FREE copy of The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual..."

"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of
Behavior Never Change, Or They'd Not Be
Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent,
Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler's
And All Dogs, NEARLY INSTANTLY, As Taught
In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual."

The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Here's Disciple Paulie:

Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands
How Wits End Training Really Works, They
Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't Realise
It's A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With
Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On
Trust And Understanding."

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell
them they are good dogs and they seem to
follow me, once I told them they were bad dogs
and they ran away from me, now I only ever tell
them they are good dogs and they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say
"good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and
I bet you'll find your dog thinking then responding
everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

========================

Here's a couple of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students tellin you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE:

"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net>
schreef inbericht
news:DLpzb.2640$Qd6.1560@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> You'll get ALL the INFORMATION you need in your
> FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
> Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual. You'll be
> taught some general exercises to calm and relax
> your dog and give him the direct attention he
> NEEDS in only a few minutes every other day, and
> you'll learn HOWE to use distraction and praise to
> EXXXTINGUISH the HABITUAL aspect of this DIS-
> EASE.

My dog (a 1 year old Yellow Lab) was biting his tail
at the root (Vet said his anal gland was blocked, and
was causing an itch).

After squeezing it, he still wouldn't stop biting his
tail. The vet advised a neck-funnel (don't know wat
you US-guy's call those) so he couldn't reach his butt.

I hate those things, i think they will drive a dog nuts.

I tried the wits end method. (difficult to read such a long
textfile if English is not your native language) Luckily this
is without all the "HOWE's" etc.so at least it's readable for
somebody like me.

The minute he started to bite i trew my key's
next to him on the floor, and praised him (he
stopped biting and looked up when he heard
the sound) I did this 7 times,

after that the tailbiting completely stopped.
Just give the wits end method a try.

One of the possible downloadlocations
is http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html


Hennie van Dalen
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11

----------------------------

"Paul B" <abcde@clear.net.nz> schreef in bericht
news:3ff50d83@clear.net.nz...
>
> Both my dogs at some stage have licked a spot
> somewhere on their bodies and I have always
> managed to train them to stop. In all cases there
> was nothing wrong that licking would have helped
> (Roz has had cut pads, stitches in her belly and
> skin itrritations, all tempting her to lick), none of their
> licking has been due to any allergies
>
>. When I see the dog licking more than normal I
> look at the spot to see whats there and decide if
> a vet appointment is needed or to wait and see,
> keeping a close eye.
>
>To stop the licking I distract the dog and give it
> some friendly banter, when it starts licking again
> I repeat, usually after about 4 times the dog stops,
> for the moment at least, if it starts again then repeat,
> before long the dog has no more desire to lick that
> spot at all.

The same thing worked with my lab licking/chewing
problem too. He had an itch due to blocked anal glands
and started chewing and licking his tail at the root.

After the glands were squeezed, and the itch was
gone he still wouldn't stop. (because the place he
chewed raw was itching)

After some training (roughly the same methode as
yours) he stopped.

--
Hennie van Dalen
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/

--------------------------------------


"Hennie van Dalen" <h.vandalen11***removethis***@chello.nl>
wrote in message news:TlsCb.2895$7U1.7896@amstwist00...

RTFM is age-old computer lingo.... It stands for "Read The F***ing
Manual" ;-) I used the manual and it works
very good!

But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on
A4-size paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching
him something new takes about 30minutes
(depending on what to teach offcourse)

My other dog (a 7year old staffordshire terrier-mix) is a bit
slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad
dog"whenever he did something i didn't want him to do, or
it might be the age.

Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn
something new: he wants me to bring along the can
filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a
very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a
"good dog", and never a "bad dog"

There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved.

For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min's without
beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog,
he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask
permission" first, and to my surprise it worked!

My dogs never went to puppy-training (lucky for them),
maybe this helped too.

Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html

-- Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/


"Ted Rumple" <rumplemint@kalbar.net> wrote in message
news:30aa784b.0309290208.135e9ab1@posting.google.com...
>
> Jerry, I am forever in your debt. The system you have
> created for training dogs is absolutely amazing!
>
> I can't wait until the new version is available for human
> children!
>
> Thank you for your service to humanity!


From: Paul B (NOSPAMpanders@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Paul.

========================


The Puppy Wizard. <TPW{}; ~ } >




Sionnach
2004-06-27 17:54:33 EST

"alpha\ufffd" <apbt\ufffd@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>
> And it looks like your one of those crossposting MF's ALSO!!
> Get the fuck out of here and take that loonie PW with you.

In case you hadn't noticed, your post is ALSO crossposted to TEN
newsgroups- as is my reply, because I have no way of knowing which of the
ten is your "home group". (My apologies to posters on the other nine).

Also, if you'd pay a bit more attention, you'd have noticed that you're
wasting your time by replying to a post from the PW himself.
If you'd checked the dates in what you're quoting/replying to, you would
have seen that the posts from other people were made in March and May of
2003 (IOW, more than a year ago), and have simply been reposted.





The Puppy Wizard
2004-06-27 18:17:07 EST
HOWEDY sinofabitch,

"Sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
news:2k8u0gF19gfltU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "alpha\ufffd" <apbt\ufffd@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> >
> > And it looks like your one of those crossposting MF's ALSO!!
> > Get the fuck out of here and take that loonie PW with you.
>
> In case you hadn't noticed, your post is ALSO
> crossposted to TEN newsgroups- as is my reply,

You can't force yourself not to reply to The Puppy
Wizard's posts, can you, sinofabitch.

> because I have no way of knowing which of the
> ten is your "home group".

You should get over it.

> (My apologies to posters on the other nine).

You can't apologize for being a dog abusing
lying mental case till sumpthin changes.

> Also, if you'd pay a bit more attention, you'd have
> noticed that you're wasting your time by replying to
> a post from the PW himself.

Yeah. Tricky Devil HE is, ain't HE.

> If you'd checked the dates in what you're
> quoting/replying to, you would have seen
> that the posts from other people were made
> in March and May of 2003 (IOW, more than
> a year ago), and have simply been reposted.

Yeah. You'll notice your pal booby maida couldn't
continue posting here abHOWETS with The Amazing
Puppy Wizard makin him look like a lying dog abusing
punk thug coward like his pal captain haggerty.

But we'll talk abHOWET you for today:


sinofabitch writes:
> >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> >> posts from two different people,
> >> took pieces of them out of context,
> >> cobbled them together,
> >> then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> >>and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> >> Which is exactly what he did.
> >> The actual quote is misleading
> >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
> >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
>
> >Here's Jerry's version
>
> > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
>
> >Here's yours;
>
> > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > nipped her ear.
> > --Sara Sionnach

THAT'S INSANE. AIN'T IT.

"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY.
"J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...
>
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
>
> Janet Boss
> http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/

"sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
>
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs
in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their
dogs go "EWWWW" but they don't NOTICE
EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes
and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked
pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE
aversives in their faces.

Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause
the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's been sprayed
in the face and the dog won't know HOWE COME
IT was MACED?

> > My dogs are not human children wearing
> > fur- they are DOGS.

They're DUMB ANIMALS they HURT and MURDER.


From: sionnach (rhyfelwr@email.msn.com)
Subject: Re: Correct use of prong collar
Date: 2001-05-05 13:03:14 PST
>
> And Sally responded:
>
> >Who said that? I would never do or recommend
> >that, and neither would most of the regulars on here.
> >Sally Hennessey
>
> I've posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so.
> Take it out of context and you'd think I was flinging puppies
> across the room!
>
> here's what I said (keep in mind that we're talking about a
> 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):
>
> A small scruff shake is appropriate if he's
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> very persistant.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make
it clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily
misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff
of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?

I think I'd phrase it something like "if the puppy is very
persistant, it can be appropriate to take hold of the
loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight
shake to the *skin*".

Janet's not talking about actually shaking
the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is
abusive."


That's INSANE. Ain't it. So's this, here's professor of
ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI marshall
"SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face
for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes
contemplation" dermer:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} : ~ ) >

Heh, heh.





The Puppy Wizard
2004-06-27 19:29:21 EST
BWEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!

"The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DHHDc.30677$Y3.9822@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> HOWEDY sinofabitch,
>
> "Sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:2k8u0gF19gfltU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "alpha\ufffd" <apbt\ufffd@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> > >
> > > And it looks like your one of those crossposting MF's ALSO!!
> > > Get the fuck out of here and take that loonie PW with you.
> >
> > In case you hadn't noticed, your post is ALSO
> > crossposted to TEN newsgroups- as is my reply,
>
> You can't force yourself not to reply to The Puppy
> Wizard's posts, can you, sinofabitch.
>
> > because I have no way of knowing which of the
> > ten is your "home group".
>
> You should get over it.
>
> > (My apologies to posters on the other nine).
>
> You can't apologize for being a dog abusing
> lying mental case till sumpthin changes.
>
> > Also, if you'd pay a bit more attention, you'd have
> > noticed that you're wasting your time by replying to
> > a post from the PW himself.
>
> Yeah. Tricky Devil HE is, ain't HE.
>
> > If you'd checked the dates in what you're
> > quoting/replying to, you would have seen
> > that the posts from other people were made
> > in March and May of 2003 (IOW, more than
> > a year ago), and have simply been reposted.
>
> Yeah. You'll notice your pal booby maida couldn't
> continue posting here abHOWETS with The Amazing
> Puppy Wizard makin him look like a lying dog abusing
> punk thug coward like his pal captain haggerty.
>
> But we'll talk abHOWET you for today:
>
>
> sinofabitch writes:
> > >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> > >> posts from two different people,
> > >> took pieces of them out of context,
> > >> cobbled them together,
> > >> then added his own words:
>
> "Neatly," and "Smartly."
>
> > >>and a fake signature.
>
> "sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
>
> > >> Which is exactly what he did.
> > >> The actual quote is misleading
> > >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
> > >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
> >
> > >Here's Jerry's version
> >
> > > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
> >
> > >Here's yours;
> >
> > > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > > nipped her ear.
> > > --Sara Sionnach
>
> THAT'S INSANE. AIN'T IT.
>
> "When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
> FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY.
> "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...
> >
> > He was next to me and I could see his neck
> > muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> >
> > Janet Boss
> > http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/
>
> "sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
> >
> > > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > > dog like a Lab.
>
> An INSENSITIVE DOG???
>
> > > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
>
> Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs
> in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their
> dogs go "EWWWW" but they don't NOTICE
> EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes
> and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked
> pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE
> aversives in their faces.
>
> Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause
> the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's been sprayed
> in the face and the dog won't know HOWE COME
> IT was MACED?
>
> > > My dogs are not human children wearing
> > > fur- they are DOGS.
>
> They're DUMB ANIMALS they HURT and MURDER.
>
>
> From: sionnach (rhyfelwr@email.msn.com)
> Subject: Re: Correct use of prong collar
> Date: 2001-05-05 13:03:14 PST
> >
> > And Sally responded:
> >
> > >Who said that? I would never do or recommend
> > >that, and neither would most of the regulars on here.
> > >Sally Hennessey
> >
> > I've posted my entire quote, since Patch failed to do so.
> > Take it out of context and you'd think I was flinging puppies
> > across the room!
> >
> > here's what I said (keep in mind that we're talking about a
> > 12 week old ~25# FCR puppy):
> >
> > A small scruff shake is appropriate if he's
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > very persistant.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Um, may I suggest a re-wording that might make
> it clearer- given that "scruff shake" is too easily
> misinterpreted as "pick the puppy up by the scruff
> of the neck and shake the puppy in the air"?
>
> I think I'd phrase it something like "if the puppy is very
> persistant, it can be appropriate to take hold of the
> loose skin at the back of the neck and give a slight
> shake to the *skin*".
>
> Janet's not talking about actually shaking
> the puppy, which I think we ALL agree is
> abusive."
>
>
> That's INSANE. Ain't it. So's this, here's professor of
> ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research at UofWI marshall
> "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!" into ITS face
> for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes
> contemplation" dermer:
>
> "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
> But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
> shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
> then you will have achieved too things.
>
> First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
> and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.
>
> How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
> minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
> biting.
>
> **********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************
>
> When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
> forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
> closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
> before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
>
> "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
> to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
> dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
> UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.
>
> BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
>
> That's INSANE. Ain't it.
>
> The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} : ~ ) >
>
> Heh, heh.
>
>
>
>



The Puppy Wizard
2004-06-27 19:33:18 EST
HOWEDY sinofabitch,

"Sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
news:2k8u0gF19gfltU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "alpha\ufffd" <apbt\ufffd@sbcglobal.net> wrote
> >
> Also, if you'd pay a bit more attention, you'd have
> noticed that you're wasting your time by replying
> to a post from the PW himself.

And he didn't snip text. That's particularly EMBARRASSIN.

> If you'd checked the dates in what you're
> quoting/replying to, you would have seen
> that the posts from other people were made
> in March and May of 2003 (IOW, more than
> a year ago), and have simply been reposted.

Yeah. That was when The Amazing Puppy
Wizard told booby maida that he was a lyin
dog abusing punk thug coward like his partner
captain haggerty, and proved it. Like this:

Here, try this:

HOWEDY People,

We got liars, dog abusers and CERTIFIED INCURABLE
LONG TERM MENTAL CASES tellin us that choppin tails
off of puppies withHOWET anesthesia, shocking and jerking
and choking dogs on pronged spiked pinch choke collars
DOESN'T HURT...

You want MOORE of the same?

"Gwen Watson" <gwen@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:4029382C.F4768A9@ig.utexas.edu...
>
>
> The Puppy Wizard wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.
> >
> > "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
> > "backsliders"
>
> Been reading your Koehler book, while sitting on
> the toilet again have you? I think it is time
> to implement "Playboy" or "Penthouse",
> it appears as though you need a life or
> a change. But maybe the "Wallstreet Journal"
> would be of more educational benefit.
>
> Gwen
>

The Puppy Wizard has enjoyed humiliating
and debunking HOWER so called EXXXPERTS
so much HE figgers you'll likeWIZE enjoy the
comedy of death terror and error. The Puppy
Wizard calls this phase of dog trainin ATTRITIION
for past crimes against man, dog, and humanity:

"A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A Resounding
Sound Distraction: "When You Chuck The
Dog The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible
To The Ears And Give A Popping Sound To
The Dog," captain arthur haggerty.

"Puppy Problems Prevented"
CanineHealthOnline.org. - JERRYIZED

HOWEDY People,

This is the typical bullshit you're gonna find from your
expert veterinary behaviorists and expert dog trainers:

"Question:
I have a 4 month old Great Dane female puppy
who has the habit of biting and catching the lead
in her mouth to shake it in a playful manner when
we walk. I am planning to show her in conformation
and need to break this habit. I rubbed Bitter Apple
on the lead but to no avail. I am using Tabasco pepper
sauce now but it is only partially effective. I try telling
her "leave it" and pulling it downward. Any help you
can give me would be appreciated. "

The world faMOUSE cap'n arthur haggerty replies:

"This is not a difficult problem to solve but"

But our expert can't teach us HOWE to do that
without HURTIN the dog...

" it is very difficult to explain because"

Because he has NO method, only fear force confrontation
intimidation pain and aversives.

" of the many variations and nuances involved in doing so. "

IOW the lying dog abusing Thug needs to couch his words
carefully cause he can only tell us to HURT our dogs, PEOPLE!

" Your use of Bitter Apple and Tabasco sauce is not a bad
move"

That'll endear the dog to working with the handler on lead,
and establish trust love and confidence.

" and I would continue to use it."

First use aversives, and if that don't work, HURT THE DOG to
be fair... cause THAT'S ALL our dog lovers know HOWE to do.

Should take a few minutes to train this dog not to do that...
without hurtin him.

" One correction that can be used is chucking the dog under
the chin when she is biting on the leash. "

Kindly enough advice. When done correctly according to
koehler, our good captain's teacher, the dog will not realize
you are the only one with hands standin there.

" Let me briefly explain the chucking technique."

EXCELLENT! Our dog lovers here don't like to give detailed
advice, so's they don't unintentionally mislead nobody noHOWE.

" Cup your hand so that your thumb and forefinger create a
circle."

Kinda like our professor lying doc scruff shake dermer does
when he relaxes on his couch?

" Your hand comes from the bottom up to the lower portion of
the mandible so the Dane doesn't see it at all. "

Right. Although big enough to take your hand off at the
shoulder, they're big stupid dogs and won't realize it's YOU
who just slapped him in the mouth, and will not even know
you're his tormentor.

" When you chuck the dog the sound will travel up the mandible
to the ears and give a popping sound to the dog. "

AHHH YES! Sound Distraction as taught by the good capn!

" Use a verbal correction at the same time. "

You mean like offering to make a deal?

" Do it as many times as it takes to get the dog to stop. "

I've seen Danes not stop, not for over a year till the dog
was too dangerous to do anything with...except by me.

" You will not be able to deliver that correction every time
so "

So that means the variable reinforcement will negate the
method, antagonize the dog, and exacerbate the anxiety which
is causing the dog to mouth and chew on the lead to defend
himself from being jerked and choked on his pronged spiked
pinch choke collar that is necessary for these monster sized
dogs which I grew up with training serious behavior problems
without hurting them, cause the loser DIES... when you fight
with a dog that's too big to intimidate and hurt enough to
make IT respect your Godlike AUTHORITY.

" supplement it with a collar correction. "

A jerk and choke will teach the dog you are in control... and
the guy in control is the bum who's slappin him around and
jerking and choking him for objecting to being jerked and
choked in the first place, PEOPLE.

" An obedience foundation will certainly help. "

AS STATED.

" Now this is the fastest and longest lasting approach in
solving the problem. "

That so, capn? You're a liar and a dog abuser and got to get
exposed to the akc and run outta business, good buddy. We'll
be seeing a lot of each other in the very near future. This
town ain't big enough for the both of us, cap'n... I'm
worldwide.

Get outta Doge. Jerry Howe, The Puppy Wizard. <{}; ~ ) >




==================

Borrowed from: "Puppy Raising Tips" from
professional trainers, John and Amy Dahl.

"Around four months many puppies can withstand a
correction. Unfortunately this is the time they start
teething and if their mouth hurts, they may act
generally sensitive. If this is the case, be patient and
wait for all those baby teeth to fall out.

In training, retrievers often respond to physical correction
better than verbal correction. While "NO!" is extremely
useful if puppy is about to bite an electrical cord or steal
food off the table, when you are teaching them something
(like obedience) a sharp jerk on their lead or swat with a
stick gets the message across with less emotion and less
effect on their confidence.

If they drop the dummy and act like their mouth hurts
when they are teething, stop all retrieving and wait for
their mouth to feel better. A correction should be just
severe enough to get the dog to respond.

Repeated weak corrections are very stressful to the dog."

END lyingfrosty dahl

If you are interested in purchasing a dignified stick to
lay across you puppy's arse, just send a personal check
or money order in the amount of $30-$40 for a 30"-40"
long whuppin stick.

These all natural hickory switches will outlast an
entire litter of puppies! MAYBE MOORE!! Supplies
limited, so HURRY! Be the first in your club to have
the hickory switch training aid guaranteed for the life
of your dog (which may be much shorter than nature
intended!).

Ask yourself: "HOWE COME DOESN'T JERRY
HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?"

And then just answer: "On AccHOWENT Of
JERRY KNOWS HOWE TO TRAIN DOGS
WITHOUT HURTING THEM."

And THEN SAY OUT LHOWED: "IGNORE
JERRY, HE'S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS."

You can get all the information you need to
PUPPERLY handle and train your dog using
non force, non confrontational, scientific and
psychological methods, in your FREE copy
of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual.


Psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something
you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says:

"I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit
of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the
article (SHE'D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON'T READ IT!),
there is NO mention in it of twisting ears (INDEED, SHE
PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES).

I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO
BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM).

I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE'S A
PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to
ADMIT THE TRUTH???).

I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where
slapping a dog is anything but destructive."

RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists... and chin cuff doesn't
mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama....

amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear."

Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL

That's HOWE COME HOWER DOG LOVERS can't
post here abHOWETS noMOORE.

The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >

Amy Dahl writes:

"From where I sit, there is a difference. I haven't noticed
any of the contingent who like Koehler trying to force
their method on everyone, or calling others names because
they do not use the method.

I personally believe the Koehler method is a more
humane way of teaching than any alternative I have
studied.

And I am not averse to learning--I have studied a
number of methods.

Koehler, of course, stops far short of the specialized
work I do with retrievers, and some of the things in his
book, such as making the dog walk behind the handler
on the "finish," are inappropriate for retriever work.

Why do I think Koehler's method is more humane than others?

First, I don't believe "corrections vs. no corrections" is as
significant to dogs as it is to people. Applied correctly,
Koehler's method uses *no* intimidation, fear, or emotional
manipulation. It is clear and definite, and the handler's
actions are always predictable. The method is masterfully
designed to prevent confrontation or vying for control in
any way. It places high demands of responsibility on the
trainer, and takes a great deal of commitment to do correctly,
so it is not for the casual "dabbler." When done well,very
few corrections are needed.

In brief, I think the clarity, predictability, and absence
of emotional blackmail weigh more strongly in the method's
favor, than the occasional brief unpleasantness of correction
weighs against it." lying frosty dahl.

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996":

"Housebreaking problems:

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you do
not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.
Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost
house-broken and then force him to commit an error by
not providing an opportunity to go outside is very
unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you
no other course than to punish him sufficiently to
convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is
not worth the consequences.

If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the
mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does
this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as
well as the house, if you really pour it on him.

Some of the new "breaking scents" on the market can
aid in your house-breaking program. One type
discourages the dog from even visiting an
area. Another encourages him to relieve himself in the
area where it is sprinkled. Your pet shop should be
able to supply further information on the brands available
in your district.

Be fair to your dog in what and when you feed him and
be consistent in your efforts to housebreak him, and
you'll soon accomplish the job.

BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING,
SCREAMING, AND WAILING

The fact that you realize you have such a problem
makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often
enough to let him know you were against his sound
effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet them,
so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of
water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start
with something more emphatic.

We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct:
the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and
windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary
people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a
good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and
plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use
his mind rather than his mouth.

But you won't make the permanent impression unless
you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise
the control he thus acquires. Make sure these
opportunities don't always come at the same time
of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.

With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow
the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the
most from his lesson. As was mentioned before,
eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the
dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows
more discriminating, increase it.

The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or
lonesomeness because you're gone constitutes a
different problem. If it is impractical for someone
to stay with him constantly (there are owners who
cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have
to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog.

This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.

Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective
effort doesn't turn into a footrace around the house
until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of
the line in the correction will also serve to establish it
as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around
when you're not present.

Next, equip yourself with a man's leather belt or a
strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good
tanning. Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard.
Remember, you're dealing with a dog who knows he
should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to
see that he does.

When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to
the door so you can barge in while he's still barking,
which is generally impossible, respond to his first
sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep
on bellowing as you charge back to his area.

Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt
that you've conveniently placed, and descend on him.
He'll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and
reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or,
if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him up with a
hitch on something.

While he's held in close, lay the strap vigorously
against his thighs.

Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter
end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat
on the number of repeat performances that will be
necessary.

When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he
is, put him on a long down to think things over while you
catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release
him from the stay and leave the area again.

So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth
that a great percentage of the barkers who are given
away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box
with the sweet smell. Personally, I've always felt that
it's even better to spank children, even if they "cry
out," than to "put them to sleep."

You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch
before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he
does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent
correction to his first sound and repeat the
spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.

It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another
day off so that you'll have time to follow through
sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able
to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job
easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the
time, he'll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency.

After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the
correction" will be tied in close enough association so
that you can move in on him without the preliminary
bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just a case of
laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like
gambling.

If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be
quiet when you're not around, so give the above
method an honest try before you presume your dog
requires a more severe correction." wm koehler.

Here's lyingdogDUMMY aka jack morrison aka
joey finnochiario aka tommy soronson of soronson's
retriever kennels, MO, USA BEATING A DOG to
HOWEsbreak IT:

"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<*n@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a236iv0ngp58gv9jmi818kbmk928rjcokq@4ax.com...
> On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT, dogstar716@aol.com (DogStar716)
wrote:
>
> >>>Never mind dogman :)
> >>
> >>You too? Some folks just never learn.
> >
> >Uh huh :)
>
> One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh huh" a lot.
>
> >>PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
> >>list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
> >>matter how loud you scream otherwise.
> >
> >May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be on a list
> >to use Koehlers
> >methods or teach his methods.
>
> Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that not
> every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but if she's
> hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as far from a
> Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can possibly be.
>
> Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
>
> I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
>
> >>http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html
> >Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that whoever
> >wrote it knows nothing about PR based training:
> >
> >"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in
> >Positive Reinforcement
> >Only training systems"
> >
> >You cannot use PR only.
>
> Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
> other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
> You know, the PPers.
>
> And they do it quite loudly, too.
>
> Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?
>
> Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.
>
> >And if you knew anything about PR BASED training, you would
> >realize that. It's not all cookies and babytalk.
>
> There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome Jack
> Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool in my bag,
> including R-, P, and P-, because I know that even R has its
> limits.
>
> You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in the
> sand.
>
> > But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.
>
> The Koehlerites have no battle cry.
>
> They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more than
> enough.
>
> >I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a proper
> >leash correction as I
> >do not rely on a leash to control or teach my dog.
>
> That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but it's not
> suitable for the majority of dog owners, especially since
> the advent of leash laws.
>
> Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler training,
> Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in need of a leash.
>
> That you apparently don't know that, once again shows me
> just how ignorant of anything to do with Koehler you are.
>
> >My last two dogs have been trained offleash right from the
> >start, using rewards for what I like, and nothing for what
> >I don't like.
>
> Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
> for you, fine. But it's not good enough for many of the
> rest of us.
>
> >Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.
>
> I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
> you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
> behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
> informed discussion with you.
>
> PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to keep
> denying that those certain harsh methods are only for LAST
> RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE A DOG'S LIFE,
> even after I've repeatedly given you direct *quotes* from
> Koehler's book saying just that. It's like you don't even
> care how stupid people think you are, or how devious you
> are, etc. That can't help your cause any. You'd think that
> you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even if you're
> not. -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
> to reply via e-mail


"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<*n@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:spb3ivgh7prvq9omhka0bcif0tfknv6oop@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> <kris_brock@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Good books huh?
>
> Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.
>
> >Which idea was your favorite, the one where they tell you
> >to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,
>
> There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog (i.e.,
> it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
> Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do it
> at the wrong time, etc.
>
> >or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard enough
> >if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within 5 minutes of
> >his punishment?
>
> If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
> evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
> quickly than it is to do it incrementally and
> half-heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
> more discipline.
>
> >Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings for
> >housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive behavior,
> >stealing, trying to get on your bed
> >at night and dog on dog aggression.
>
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a dog. A
> swat on the rump or a check to the chin does *not*
> constitute a "beating."
>
> I'm sorry if you don't agree.
>
> And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be looked at
> in its proper context.
>
> A quote from the Monks:
>
> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical discipline.
> Since no book can pretend to analyze every individual dog
> and situation, we feel obligated to emphasize from the
> outset that discipline is never an arbitrary training
> technique to be applied to each and every dog for all
> offenses. We do, however, believe that physical and verbal
> discipline can be an effective technique. The best policy if
> you experience any of the above problems is to consult a
> qualified trainer or veterinarian for evaluation of your
> individual situation....
>
> "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique, it
> should be the proper technique. We feel we have developed
> several methods that depend less on violent physical force
> than timing, a flair for drama, and the element of surprise.
> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map out
> these methods, rather than simply skip the topic because it
> is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know what to do."
>
> In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
> serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.
>
> For example, they do not recommend using physical discipline
> for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only on those rare
> occasions when an already reliably housebroken dog is (after
> careful evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
> purpose, backsliding, etc.
>
> I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an adult dog
> was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler. It was
> either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog was
> going on a one way trip to the pound. Being the kind,
> compassionate trainer that I am, I was prepared to do
> whatever it took to get this dog house-trained and save his
> life.
>
> After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
> and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
> and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
> (no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
> immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
> dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
> his nose about two inches away from the poop. After a
> couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
> wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
> ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
> times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
> stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
> life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> myself.
>
> So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for novices.
>
> Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
>
> -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to
> reply via e-mail



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